Grease=SoL?

[Z3ro]

So, I keep reading something that does not match my playing experience, and I figured I'd ask to see if maybe it's just my groups. Specifically, that certain spells (grease, glitterdust, slow) are spells that if the enemy fails their save, the fight is basically over. Specifically grease.

Now, I'm not saying grease is not a great spell; it sets up the rogue well, can slow enemies down, and if you get creative can have dozens of uses. Simply the notion that firing one off will end just about any encounter.

In my experience, the spell itself covers a limited area, meaning that unless enemies are tightly grouped, you'll only get a limited number of them. But more importantly, I've found that even in the effects of the spell, enemies are still capable of fighting back. Sure, they're not as deadly as they were before the spell, but they're not instantly dead either (unlike, say, colorspray or sleep).

Is this something my group is doing improperly, or is the designation of SoL exagerrated on grease?

[dsmiles]

Is this something my group is doing improperly, or is the designation of SoL exagerrated on grease?

I beleive it's based on the level you gain the spell. At higher levels, grease isn't really a SoL, it's more of a SoS. At low levels, it's definitely a fight ender, IME. "Oh, looky at what's following me. A horde of Zombies...GREASE!!"

[deuxhero]

Losing an action and taking any reach weapon dood's weapon to the face in an AoO or take a (quite high for low levels) penalty to AC and attacks (plus no ranged attacks) is "losing" at low levels. The fact that it reoccurs if the enemy loses their balance after getting up doesn't help them.

[Amphetryon]

So, I keep reading something that does not match my playing experience, and I figured I'd ask to see if maybe it's just my groups. Specifically, that certain spells (grease, glitterdust, slow) are spells that if the enemy fails their save, the fight is basically over. Specifically grease.

Now, I'm not saying grease is not a great spell; it sets up the rogue well, can slow enemies down, and if you get creative can have dozens of uses. Simply the notion that firing one off will end just about any encounter.

In my experience, the spell itself covers a limited area, meaning that unless enemies are tightly grouped, you'll only get a limited number of them. But more importantly, I've found that even in the effects of the spell, enemies are still capable of fighting back. Sure, they're not as deadly as they were before the spell, but they're not instantly dead either (unlike, say, colorspray or sleep).

Is this something my group is doing improperly, or is the designation of SoL exagerrated on grease?

What enemies do you typically face, in what environment? If you're dungeon-delving, space is generally at a premium, so you'll be very likely to get a majority of enemies with a single casting, whereas an outdoor adventure targets fewer enemies almost per force. That said, any enemies caught in Grease's AoE do need to make Reflex saves every round they're in the AoE or fall prone, seriously limiting their attack options unless they're all casters or ranged attackers. Even succeeding on the Reflex save doesn't allow them to move at all without a DC 10 Balance check, which is a skill most stock monsters don't invest in.

Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm).

[Ernir]

Everything is exaggerated. See what I did there?

Anyway, I wouldn't call Grease a Save or Lose. Save or Suck is the term I'd use. Get Greased, and you're still in the fight, but if it was close before, now you're fighting uphill.

One thing about Grease specifically, though... even if you save, you're still in a very precarious position if you can't get out of it. You're balancing, and thus probably flat-footed. You can't move out of it without making a balance check (and that's at reduced speed). And the real killer? If you take damage, you have to make another balance check. If you fail a balance check, at best your action is wasted, and at worst, you fall on your ass too. I've seen mid-level characters get completely Grease-locked, even if they made the save. =/

[Manateee]

As an area spell, it's not so much SoL as it can be battlefield control. Anything that can isolate a target can translate into an easy victory.

As a targeted spell, in certain circumstances, it can be devastating as a Save-repeatedly-or-lose - namely circumstances involving a target who relies on a specific piece of gear (esp. a weapon) to remain relevant in a fight.

In one game, greasing the [much] higher-level Blackguard's weapon was enough to let my Swashbuckler/Bard overtake him in solo combat. (And yeah, my build was as wasteful as it sounds.)

[Z3ro]

What enemies do you typically face, in what environment? If you're dungeon-delving, space is generally at a premium, so you'll be very likely to get a majority of enemies with a single casting, whereas an outdoor adventure targets fewer enemies almost per force. That said, any enemies caught in Grease's AoE do need to make Reflex saves every round they're in the AoE or fall prone, seriously limiting their attack options unless they're all casters or ranged attackers. Even succeeding on the Reflex save doesn't allow them to move at all without a DC 10 Balance check, which is a skill most stock monsters don't invest in.

Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm).

We fight a lot of different enemies, though usually outdoors. I can see the advantages indoors, however.


Everything is exaggerated. See what I did there?

Anyway, I wouldn't call Grease a Save or Lose. Save or Suck is the term I'd use. Get Greased, and you're still in the fight, but if it was close before, now you're fighting uphill.

One thing about Grease specifically, though... even if you save, you're still in a very precarious position if you can't get out of it. You're balancing, and thus probably flat-footed. You can't move out of it without making a balance check (and that's at reduced speed). And the real killer? If you take damage, you have to make another balance check. If you fail a balance check, at best your action is wasted, and at worst, you fall on your ass too. I've seen mid-level characters get completely Grease-locked, even if they made the save. =/

I think if expressed as a save or suck I'd be on board. I've seen plenty of fights shift in one directionn or the other with a good grease casting. But instantly winning the fight (like a lucky colorspray)? Never.

[Gnaeus]

I'm not even sure I would go so far as to call it a save or suck. Yeah, in a situation where you can trap an enemy in a grease it is a fight winner, but most of the time it is just a trip, followed by enemy moving slowly out of the greased terrain. It isn't remotely like glitterdust or blindness, where if you fail your save you are screwed for (probably) the rest of your very short life.

[dsmiles]

most of the time it is just a trip, followed by enemy moving slowly out of the greased terrain. This is where reach weapons come into play. Keep the opponents in the AoE of the grease spell and win.

[ericgrau]

It's a semi-SoL against people who keep getting up and falling using 3 stooges tactics. Otherwise it's a save or -4 against usually only 1 target, which is pretty mediocre. Other scenarios are unlikely.

I likewise don't think much of the 10' radius glitterdust as a main tactic, as you need luck to get enough foes. Heightened glitterdust is pretty sweet on a sorcerer at higher levels as a backup tactic. Since it's a low level spell known it doesn't cost you much until the day you finally get tightly clumped foes and bam. And if you know the rules blind foes can keep fighting pretty well in a noisy combat except for a 50% miss chance, so it's likewise just a debuff. The spell gets stronger when the DM simply puts the monster out of combat, though even then it's limited.

I prefer ray of enfeeblement, web and sleet storm myself. And at level 1 there's sleep or color spray of course. In a recent campaign I've been using web pretty effectively even though - as my bad luck would have it - nothing that mattered has failed its save yet. If I was glitterdusting it'd be "Whelp, there goes another turn lost to a passed save."

[Chronos]

I beleive it's based on the level you gain the spell. At higher levels, grease isn't really a SoL, it's more of a SoS. At low levels, it's definitely a fight ender, IME. "Oh, looky at what's following me. A horde of Zombies...GREASE!!"Then again, though, at the level when you gain it, it only lasts for one round, so you're basically just trading one action from the wizard with one action from everyone who failed their save. Which is OK, since you'll probably be able to slip up two or three enemies, but at that level, spell slots are scarce enough that you'd really prefer to get more than just "OK" out of one.

Now, at third level or so (especially if you Extend it), it's getting long enough to really make a big impact. But then again, at third level, you also have access to Web, which is much more of a fight-ender (even if they make their save against Web, they're still entangled, and likely still immobilized).

[Averis Vol]

and on the last round you can always light it up causing, what, 2d4 dmg? plus the spell you used to set it on fire (burning hands is an easy one). or you could do it more mundane like and use some cheap tindertwig.

[supermonkeyjoe]

and on the last round you can always light it up causing, what, 2d4 dmg? plus the spell you used to set it on fire (burning hands is an easy one). or you could do it more mundane like and use some cheap tindertwig.

Your mileage may vary, RAW grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) isn't flammable

[dsmiles]

Depends on the GM. In the group I game with, supernatural animal fat is still animal fat. (Thus, flammable.) Plus, it doesn't say it isn't flammable.

[Amphetryon]

Here's the thing: Without metamagic and the accompanying metamagic-reducers, you're going to be hard pressed to find a 1st level spell that functions as a Save-or-Lose by the (apparently) strict metric the OP seems to use. Ray of Enfeeblement, mentioned by ericgrau as preferred, requires an attack roll and - without the aforementioned boost of metamagic - isn't likely to end the fight in a single casting either. Color Spray has minimal effect against opponents that don't rely on sight; there are several appropriate monsters that don't rely on sight just in the S (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#spiderSwarm)R (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)D (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grimlock.htm). Even the vaunted Lesser Shivering Touch has issues at low level, as it requires a Touch attack and isn't able to render an opponent helpless without phenomenal circumstantial modifiers or metamagic stacking.

In short, this may be a case of inflated expectations. Someone telling you their car is fast doesn't mean they're driving a Bugatti.

[mikau013]

Well looking at core only, 1st lvl wizard/sorc spells we have:
Charm person
Sleep
Cause fear

[Amphetryon]

Well looking at core only, 1st lvl wizard/sorc spells we have:
Charm person
Sleep
Cause fearA good sampling of expected, 1st-level appropriate, enemies is immune to essentially all three of those at the same time.

[mikau013]

A good sampling of expected, 1st-level appropriate, enemies is immune to essentially all three of those at the same time.

Well that is why we can run from them and then use charm person on someone else to do the fighting :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

So, I keep reading something that does not match my playing experience, and I figured I'd ask to see if maybe it's just my groups. Specifically, that certain spells (grease, glitterdust, slow) are spells that if the enemy fails their save, the fight is basically over. Specifically grease.

Now, I'm not saying grease is not a great spell; it sets up the rogue well, can slow enemies down, and if you get creative can have dozens of uses. Simply the notion that firing one off will end just about any encounter.

In my experience, the spell itself covers a limited area, meaning that unless enemies are tightly grouped, you'll only get a limited number of them. But more importantly, I've found that even in the effects of the spell, enemies are still capable of fighting back. Sure, they're not as deadly as they were before the spell, but they're not instantly dead either (unlike, say, colorspray or sleep).

Is this something my group is doing improperly, or is the designation of SoL exagerrated on grease?

You are correct, sir. It is a handy, useful spell, but being greased is not a guaranteed lose in the way that many are. A better example of SoL is black tentacles...fail that grapple check, and you're probably not doing anything useful until after the fight's been lost.

Sleep is very good...but there IS the wake-up clause.

Plenty of people are still fairly effective if they can't move, though, so grease is...often overrated. Situationally handy, but honestly...having everyone just carry a coupla bags of marbles is nearly as good in those situations. IIRC, those are a DC 15 balance check, which is notably better than the grease one, though you lose the reflex save.

Edit: Also, grease is non-flammable. There is a version a level higher that explicitly is flammable, if you prefer that method.

[Z3ro]

Here's the thing: Without metamagic and the accompanying metamagic-reducers, you're going to be hard pressed to find a 1st level spell that functions as a Save-or-Lose by the (apparently) strict metric the OP seems to use.

That's kinda the point; if the informal description of a spell is "save or lose" and my wizard casts it, and the enemies don't save, the fight should be over (at the very least, for those enemies caught in the spell). In some other thread (forgot which) there was some discussion about a combat scenario and some one suggested throwing out a grease spell to end the fight, as if that one spell would finish the fight.

Every now and then I just want to make a check against hyperbole, when on these boards so often broken means slightly overpowered, and spells like grease are always fight enders.

[Torq]

I think the real beauty of the Grease spell is not that the bad guy loses their action falls down, but that it draws AoO and SA from other party members.

Last session, I greased a bad guy and him trying to get up drew 3 AoO. So that's basically a spell that got me 3 free attacks. And I consider them MY attacks.

[Z3ro]

And I consider them MY attacks.

This is an interesting dynamic between different personalities that I've never understood. Had I been the wizard in your scenario, I'd feel like a glorified magic item, helping out while others did the real work. I'd much rather be the one actually getting the AoO, and have been happy with my contribution. But others, like yourself, view it exactly the opposite. I'm always fascinated by the difference.

[Benly]

A lot of the spells people describe as "save or lose" or "fight-enders" are better described as "now the melee characters have a major advantage". A lot of people will dismissively refer to this phase as "mopping up" and imply that you could just have some hireling Experts finish the job for you, but there are very few spells where this is the case (Sleep, Stinking Cloud).

Basically wizard fans have a huge frontliner-shaped blind spot that contributes heavily to the claims of "wizards solo the fight". Wizards make the fight a lot easier, but there's still a fight there that needs dealing with and if you don't have someone stepping forward to deal with it the wizard is SOL in a few rounds.

[Anxe]

It's been useful into mid levels in my group. The players cast it on the big bad guy's weapon. He's handicapped for the rest of the battle. If we're going to define it as accurately as possible it is a SoS spell, but there isn't a big difference.

[Torq]

This is an interesting dynamic between different personalities that I've never understood. Had I been the wizard in your scenario, I'd feel like a glorified magic item, helping out while others did the real work. I'd much rather be the one actually getting the AoO, and have been happy with my contribution. But others, like yourself, view it exactly the opposite. I'm always fascinated by the difference.

That was just residual frustration coming through. The thing is, a party functions best when rounded out with good melee-ers and good casters, but there are a couple people in the group that don't yet firmly grasp the mechanics of the game so when I cast Grease, their response was, "Pfft, Grease? Really? That's a silly spell." The following round, they got three unscheduled attacks which ended the encounter, but didn't make the connection that it was teamwork that brought the bad guy down. In their mind, they did the damage, I just cast a silly non-damage dealing spell.

So I'm guessing you play mostly melee types or blasters?

[Z3ro]

That was just residual frustration coming through. The thing is, a party functions best when rounded out with good melee-ers and good casters, but there are a couple people in the group that don't yet firmly grasp the mechanics of the game so when I cast Grease, their response was, "Pfft, Grease? Really? That's a silly spell." The following round, they got three unscheduled attacks which ended the encounter, but didn't make the connection that it was teamwork that brought the bad guy down. In their mind, they did the damage, I just cast a silly non-damage dealing spell.

I at least understand the teamwork aspect.


So I'm guessing you play mostly melee types or blasters?

How'd you guess?:smallwink:

[Amphetryon]

That's kinda the point; if the informal description of a spell is "save or lose" and my wizard casts it, and the enemies don't save, the fight should be over (at the very least, for those enemies caught in the spell). In some other thread (forgot which) there was some discussion about a combat scenario and some one suggested throwing out a grease spell to end the fight, as if that one spell would finish the fight.

Every now and then I just want to make a check against hyperbole, when on these boards so often broken means slightly overpowered, and spells like grease are always fight enders.Except, the point about Grease being so good is how good it is compared to other 1st level spells, particularly in Core. Listing Grease as among the very best 1st level spells available, and as one of the handful that can potentially be SoL, isn't hyperbole. It's only when you read into the above that "ZOMG Grease always pwns all encounters EVAR!" that it becomes underwhelming. There's really no such thing as a true 1st level SoL in 3.5 (without shenanigans). Grease is still about as good as it gets.

[Z3ro]

Except, the point about Grease being so good is how good it is compared to other 1st level spells, particularly in Core. Listing Grease as among the very best 1st level spells available, and as one of the handful that can potentially be SoL, isn't hyperbole. It's only when you read into the above that "ZOMG Grease always pwns all encounters EVAR!" that it becomes underwhelming. There's really no such thing as a true 1st level SoL in 3.5 (without shenanigans). Grease is still about as good as it gets.

Which is what I was looking to verify. I didn't say grease wasn't a good spell (it's actually one of my favorites, given its shenannigan possibilities). I was merely verifying that it isn't "cast this and win any fight" as has been presented at times. Thank you.

[Tyndmyr]

Every now and then I just want to make a check against hyperbole, when on these boards so often broken means slightly overpowered, and spells like grease are always fight enders.

This is...unfortunately common.

Grease is good, but I've had chars who never prepped it. Hell, my level 2 wizard I'm playing right now doesn't even know it. I could. It's not like I banned conjuration...but it just wasn't important. When you're in a human-centric world, and you're a focused specialist illusionist, color spray just happens to be a lot better.

It's a trade-off. Grease is often a good pick, and should be considered, but it is not at all broken, and sometimes is given too much credit as a "win button".


It's been useful into mid levels in my group. The players cast it on the big bad guy's weapon. He's handicapped for the rest of the battle. If we're going to define it as accurately as possible it is a SoS spell, but there isn't a big difference.

I usually carry backup weapons, and my NPCs generally do too...certainly, anyone describable as the big bad has options. Now, it may not be as awesome and magical as his favorite weapon, so greasing a weapon is useful, but it's notably different from a Save or Lose, most of the time.

If you want a level 1 spell I almost never fail to learn...it'd be mage armor. At level 1, miss chances haven't come online yet, and hp is scarce for casters. Having a reliable source of armor is remarkably useful for almost anyone. I'd put that as a more essential level 1 conj spell. Color Spray and Sleep are at least on par with grease. I'd argue for True Strike and Silent Image as well.

[dextercorvia]

A lot of the spells people describe as "save or lose" or "fight-enders" are better described as "now the melee characters have a major advantage". A lot of people will dismissively refer to this phase as "mopping up" and imply that you could just have some hireling Experts finish the job for you, but there are very few spells where this is the case (Sleep, Stinking Cloud).

Basically wizard fans have a huge frontliner-shaped blind spot that contributes heavily to the claims of "wizards solo the fight". Wizards make the fight a lot easier, but there's still a fight there that needs dealing with and if you don't have someone stepping forward to deal with it the wizard is SOL in a few rounds.

Not necessarily.


This is an interesting dynamic between different personalities that I've never understood. Had I been the wizard in your scenario, I'd feel like a glorified magic item, helping out while others did the real work. I'd much rather be the one actually getting the AoO, and have been happy with my contribution. But others, like yourself, view it exactly the opposite. I'm always fascinated by the difference.

You can do both. A level one wizard can have Color Spray, Grease, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon. This allows the Wizard to participate actively in the "mopping up". You might not deal as much damage as a similarly optimized Barbarian, but you deal enough to handle stunned, prone, and weaponless foes.

[Benly]

There's really no such thing as a true 1st level SoL in 3.5 (without shenanigans).

Sleep and Color Spray I would say both qualify as first level save-or-lose spells, with the caveat that both have rather significant target restrictions.

That said, my perspective is that it's a save-or-lose if a failed save renders the target incapable of taking meaningful action without similarly restricting the ability of the caster and his allies to take action against the target, for long enough that the target is essentially screwed. Thus, Color Spray is a save-or-lose against appropriate targets because it renders targets stunned or unconscious (and thus unable to act) for several rounds while your party is free to ruin its day. Grease is not; it's a significant debuff but the target is still able to take meaningful action. Solid Fog is not; it renders the target incapable of meaningful action but also renders the caster's party largely incapable of meaningful action against the target.

[Benly]

Not necessarily.



You can do both. A level one wizard can have Color Spray, Grease, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon. This allows the Wizard to participate actively in the "mopping up". You might not deal as much damage as a similarly optimized Barbarian, but you deal enough to handle stunned, prone, and weaponless foes.

Okay, for some damned reason my previous post isn't showing in my browser for me to edit it: I agree that with a "proper" save-or-lose which renders large groups of enemies incapable of action for several rounds while the wizard is free to take action against them, then yes, it can be reasonable to say the wizard "won the fight on his own". Sleep and Stinking Cloud are examples of such spells, against enemies vulnerable to them. Grease is not. The conversation at that point was not about the spells that actually render the enemies incapable of action, it was about Grease.

I have heard people say with a straight face that if a wizard casts Solid Fog he has won the fight on his own. Yeah, no.

[dextercorvia]

Not on his own. Dividing the Encounter into chunks that can be handled separately though, is an awesome strategy that a lot of people miss.

[Tyndmyr]

You can do both. A level one wizard can have Color Spray, Grease, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon. This allows the Wizard to participate actively in the "mopping up". You might not deal as much damage as a similarly optimized Barbarian, but you deal enough to handle stunned, prone, and weaponless foes.

My aforementioned color-spraying wizard just carries around a battle-axe he's not proficient in. CdG is remarkably better than AoOs.

[imneuromancer]

Sculpted Grease at 3rd level = SoL

[dextercorvia]

My aforementioned color-spraying wizard just carries around a battle-axe he's not proficient in. CdG is remarkably better than AoOs.

It doesn't works as well against something with 3 or more HD, but I totally agree at level 1.

[Tyndmyr]

It doesn't works as well against something with 3 or more HD, but I totally agree at level 1.

Right. It's death on a stick at levels 1 and 2, but at level 3, you start running into higher HD things more frequently...that said, 3 HD mobs are less likely to be in a group, so the lesser effect is manageable.

And hey, you get 2nd level spells then anyway, so that helps.

[Benly]

Not on his own. Dividing the Encounter into chunks that can be handled separately though, is an awesome strategy that a lot of people miss.

Oh, yeah, it's a great spell.

The thing is, I have seriously had arguments, on these boards and others, with people saying (with regard to Pathfinder, admittedly) "if I cast Solid Fog the fight might as well be over, the frontliners don't need to be there". Which is patently untrue.

[mikau013]

Oh, yeah, it's a great spell.

The thing is, I have seriously had arguments, on these boards and others, with people saying (with regard to Pathfinder, admittedly) "if I cast Solid Fog the fight might as well be over, the frontliners don't need to be there". Which is patently untrue.

Well if you cast it ontop of your front liners :smalltongue: