[PF] Need Rogue Advice

[Kirti]

I'm fairly new to table-top games and I've played a bit of 4E and Pathfinder. I've always been a fan of character concepts who accomplish tasks through fineness - social or combat. Since I like up close and personal combat, I chose to play the rogue class.

In social encounters, I find that I'm often only limited by my own imagination for what I can do or how I can approach a situation and I enjoy the rogue class immensely. However, I am having a rough time figuring out how to be a be a significant contributor in combat. Here are some of my challenges:

Role
This is my biggest challenge and might be a consequence of my failure to min/max. It feels like the rogue is all about sneak damage and only sneak damage in combat. I envision a rogue/spy-ish character as fighting dirty with ways to blind/trip/etc that are more natural to them than the other classes. I just feel overshadowed in power and versatility in combat by classes like the paladin, ranger, etc. This is probably a result of me just not thinking outside the box on how a rogue can have a unique role in a group during combat.

What are some unique ways that you have played a rogue in combat and contributed to the success of the group?

I realize that the 2 weapon fighting is the optimal damage build, but how else can they be played and be useful? I considered using a whip/spiked chain to make a trip build. I'm open to ideas that include combat maneuvers, using your charisma, poisons, and everything else I'm not thinking about.

Durability
I don't expect to be a fighter, a cleric, or a paladin - but I find myself getting demolished in my current campaign. I have to get into melee to land my attack with the rapier/knife/etc., but then I'm just standing there for the enemies to take their attacks on me.

I always thought being a rogue was about being mobile and light on your feet diving in and out of melee. But, with how the round system works - you can either move in or move out in a round (assuming you want to attack).

What are some ways that you have improved the durability of your rogue either passively (feat/armor/etc.) or actively (combat strategies)?

Summary/TL;DR;
The questions bolded above are where I'm looking to tap into the experience and creativity of the community. How can a rogue me crafted to be unique/important to a group in combat and what are ways to improve the durability?

I know people have mixed feelings about 4e, but I found it easy as a beginner to have roles of classes clearly defined. I enjoyed being the controller of the group by dazing, tripping, blinding, etc. enemies. Damage was always icing on the cake - but not what I sought. I enjoy Pathfinder more, but with the flexibility of the system also comes ambiguity in how to be important to a group.

Disclaimers
- Fairly new to table top games.
- Have never managed to make it past level 5 in pathfinder campaigns (play with a tough GM! But, he's a great story teller).

[Curious]

Here is a build that can definitely help you with your damage in combat.

The Rake (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake) Rogue archetype allows you to make intimidate checks as a free action if you sacrifice one sneak attack dice. The Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) archetype allows you to get a single sneak attack off if you move more than 10 feet in a round. Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) lets you attack a shaken enemy as if they were flat-footed. So, combined with some method of free movement, such as Accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate) or hustle, you can move and full-sneak-attack, as well as intimidate your enemy.

[Kirti]

Thanks, Curious.

Is it possible to make a rogue emphasizing combat maneuvers? Do firearms work well with a rogue (for when you're not sneaking around of course)?

[Chained Birds]

If your campaign allows for firearms, then finding one for your rogue could be a great boon even if you're not proficient in it (taking a -4 on attacks with it). It does hit touch AC within the first range increment, so the -4 isn't too bad.

Working in the Scout Archetype is always a good option for a reliable Sneak Attack every encounter. I use Thug Archetype in conjunction with Scout for the no save sickening condition you can give to an enemy, but Rake makes for an equally nice combo. Just as long as you continue to put a few ranks into intimidate and try to have a positive Charisma score.

If you want to be a sneaky rogue and have a bit of fun, you could go Cutpurse Archetype and steal your opponent's weapons and items before ever engaging them. Though the strength of this Archetype is dependent on the setting and if you mainly encounter humanoids (medium sized throughout the most part) who wield weapons. Disarming works well with this too, but once again it is dependent on the setting and enemies.
I once made a fun Cutpurse Rogue who would bump into random thugs and steal their primary weapons before goading them into combat. Adding insult to injury, he would sometimes use their very weapon against them as long it was a rogue-usable weapon.

[Krazzman]

There are quite a lot's of ways.

First off for durability:

Durability comes from limited sources. Not being hit or you not careing being hit.
Evasion gives you a part of this. AC gives the other...in low levels. For the higher Ones... go for miss-chances concealment. Try to get Immunities or resistances.

Roles:
There are a few main Roles:
Finesse
TWS (Two weapon sucker...cause you gonna be annoying ;D)
Brute
Archer
Skill monkey

As finesse rogue you are going to take a light weapon (or a Finesse weapon) like Kukri, Rapier or Scimitar(not so sure..). As you want to crit these weapons bring your chance to score a critical threat to 30%.

Brute
This one's probably not to your like but you multiclass with Fighter/barb/paladin or something like that and take up a Falchion (for crits) or other two-handed weapons. This is going to be the one pulling the Maneuvers with more ease than the finesse rogue. Since Strentgh goes on CMB, else you'll need agile maneuvers (feat) for using dex on CMB.

TWS
double wielding kurkis.
I like this one because you have a set of feat's that would suck to take for anyone but you, since with this you either want to go for lot's of precision damage and crits OR precision damage and granting other players your crits (Butterfly Sting - Feat).

Archer
Stay away... it's a trap. It's a bit supported. You can get it to 60ft instead of only 30ft, but you miss on one of your main sources for SA....flanking.

Skill Monkey
You focus on skills...but your ability to fight is somewhat starved (all your feats went to skills didn't they?). Your highest attribute should be Int, followed by dex and charisma.

Good Feats:
Feats that either make you more awesome or your team more awesome because of you being awesomely skilled are good.
Butterfly sting for example is best used to grant the scythe wielding fighter or the bow slinging ranger your crits, effectively giving him 15x4 against your enemy.
Furthermore you'll need feats that say oh you have concealment? IDC...SA!
I believe this feat is called shadow strike. Furthermore Feats or features that give you your Sneak Attack in certain moments are good. Gang up (feat), the Scout Archetype, getting a sort of invisibility and so on are great.
Dancing Dervish could be a option for scimitar wielding.
Chose one Maneuver (like) and build for it. Trip seems to be really great for you. Combar Reflexes, Improved Trip, Fury's Fall, Critical Trip and Greater Trip.

Weapons
3 indicators:
Style (you want to play with that weapon)
Good (high crit chance for example or certain purpose)
Awesome (high crit + boni [along the lines getting +dex to dmg])

I hope this rough and incomplete rundown is of any help to you.

[mikau013]

Didn't pathfinder realise they nerfed the rogue too much thus released the ninja? Which is just a better rogue? See if you can perhaps play that one.

[Curious]

Didn't pathfinder realise they nerfed the rogue too much thus released the ninja? Which is just a better rogue? See if you can perhaps play that one.

They didn't nerf the Rogue though, and the Ninja has a lower op ceiling because of it's restricted access to archetypes. :smallconfused:

[Krazzman]

They didn't nerf the Rogue though, and the Ninja has a lower op ceiling because of it's restricted access to archetypes. :smallconfused:

And it's MAD-ness...and you can't multiclass with rogue anymore...

[Crasical]

Here is a build that can definitely help you with your damage in combat.

The Rake (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake) Rogue archetype allows you to make intimidate checks as a free action if you sacrifice one sneak attack dice. The Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) archetype allows you to get a single sneak attack off if you move more than 10 feet in a round. Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) lets you attack a shaken enemy as if they were flat-footed. So, combined with some method of free movement, such as Accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate) or hustle, you can move and full-sneak-attack, as well as intimidate your enemy.

It's also possible to do something similar without using any archetypes by taking the Enforcer, Shatter Defenses, and Sap Adept feats so that you bap someone with a sap once, then beat them senseless with follow up sneak attacks with a +2 on each die.
Even still, you can't even get Shatter Defenses until 8th level, and it leaves Dazzling Display as a dead feat.


Thanks, Curious.

Is it possible to make a rogue emphasizing combat maneuvers? Do firearms work well with a rogue (for when you're not sneaking around of course)?

It's possible to combine a certain magical scope, a Distance musket, and Sniper Goggles to sneak attack from an absolutely ridiculous distance away, if you feel like sinking a large amount of money into obtaining the goggles. Otherwise, just having a pistol you can fire off even nonproficient to get that easy touch attack is nice.

[mikau013]

Hmmm as I read it, the scout move + sneak attack needs to be either a charge or an attack action (single attack). So you'd need pounce I guess?

And remember that shatter defences requires you to hit your target one time before he is considered flat-footed, thus you might not get sneak on all of your attacks.

[Curious]

Hmmm as I read it, the scout move + sneak attack needs to be either a charge or an attack action (single attack). So you'd need pounce I guess?

And remember that shatter defences requires you to hit your target one time before he is considered flat-footed, thus you might not get sneak on all of your attacks.

An attack action is just the action you take to attack someone, ie. full attacking. You use Accelerate for the extra move action so you can sidle on up to an enemy and attack them. Scout makes the first attack a sneak attack, you sacrifice one or two of the d6's for a free intimidate check, and since you have just struck a shaken enemy with an attack, Shatter Defenses renders them flat-footed against the rest of your attacks, allowing you to sneak attack on all the rest of your attacks.

[mikau013]

An attack action is just the action you take to attack someone, ie. full attacking.

No, an attack action is a single attack in pathfinder.

Here look at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq the part where it says what kind of action vital strike uses.

[Curious]

No, an attack action is a single attack in pathfinder.

Here look at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq the part where it says what kind of action vital strike uses.

It at no point states that an attack action requires a standard action, just that you may choose to activate an attack action as a standard action, which is what activates vital strike.

[mikau013]

It at no point states that an attack action requires a standard action, just that you may choose to activate an attack action as a standard action, which is what activates vital strike.

Hmmm I think it does say that:
(...)an attack action, which is a type of standard action.

And the vital strike text only mentions attack action aswell.

[jmelesky]

It at no point states that an attack action requires a standard action, just that you may choose to activate an attack action as a standard action, which is what activates vital strike.

The Vital Strike thing was a big deal, because it meant that it didn't combo with anything (particularly "Spring Attack"). I can't find the reference now, but i'm pretty sure mikau013's interpretation is correct.

[Krazzman]

The Vital Strike thing was a big deal, because it meant that it didn't combo with anything (particularly "Spring Attack"). I can't find the reference now, but i'm pretty sure mikau013's interpretation is correct.

Nope he's not, else there wouldn't be the bonus part about Skirmisher.


At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.

Furthermore:
if it is not clear, you can make a standard action to an attack action, if you combine standard + move -> full-round action or in case for attacking a full-attack action.

[DrDeth]

Don’t try trip, you need to max DEX (18?), not STR (12-14). Take bleeding attack as a talent.

Role- you want to be the Skill guy. Max out Perception & Disable Device, take Trap Spotter as a talent. You need some INT here, maybe a 14.

For Durability take Toughness and Dodge for Feat, Resiliency for a talent, Con of 14 at least. Get a trait that boosts your Fort by +1.

Having Darkvision helps a lot, maybe Half-orc or Dwarf. Dwarf has some nice abilities that work with rogue, such as Hardy, and they can use battle-axes, etc if you like. Half-orc get Ferocity, and can swing a falchion, interesting choice. Some alt features that help are Scavenger, Rock Climber, Sacred tattoo.