Sorcerer Fixes?

[Rossebay]

So, in my group, we're experimenting with a Sorcerer fix. We've given the Sorcerer:

4+ skills
Bonus Metamagic or Reserve feats at levels 1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20.
Spell Level Access at a Wizard's rate. So, shift everything down a level, add another 1st level spell known at 8th level, and another 6th level spell known at 16th level.


Does this throw the game out of balance? Or, will it stay well-within the bounds of an Elven Generalist Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt?

Any suggestions on changes?

[navar100]

The way you have it why play a wizard? You're giving the sorcerer everything.

The only "fix" sorcerer needs is a reason to stay in the class as opposed to it being a no brainer to go into a prestige class. Fortunately, there is now a published means of doing so - Pathfinder.

[ericgrau]

Spell Level Access at a Wizard's rate. So, shift everything down a level, add another 1st level spell known at 8th level, and another 6th level spell known at 16th level.

Normally I'd say this alone makes the sorcerer stronger than the wizard in a casual game, since most casual wizards don't change their spell list very often. But abrupt jaunt is really good. OTOH runestaves for more spells known, tricks to get quicken and so on could help the sorcerer too. So is that sorcerer fair for your gaming group? Hmm... probably?

It's not a level ahead of the wizard or anything so even if it's stronger than the wizard in your group I doubt it'll be game breaking.

[Rossebay]

Normally I'd say this alone makes the sorcerer stronger than the wizard in a casual game, since most casual wizards don't change their spell list every often. But abrupt jaunt is really good. OTOH runestaves for more spells known, tricks to get quicken and so on could help the sorcerer too. So is that sorcerer fair for your gaming group... probably?

It's not a(nother) level ahead or anything so even if it's stronger I doubt it'll be game breaking.

This was our general feeling on it. The Sorcerer will end up getting average still less skills per level, one more spell per day, and, what, 4 more feats?

Mind you, Metamagic Feats still take a Full Round Action, and Sorcerers still get many less spells known than Wizards, and as such less options. Wizards in and of themselves have enough ways to spontaneously cast spells that they can easily keep up with Sorcerers. As far as I can tell, this seems to put them on about an even scale.

[Manateee]

It sounds like you've buffed the wizard, and you want to buff the sorcerer to keep up? I don't know if that counts as a "fix." :p

The things you're proposing don't hurt - especially the spell progression change, but they don't address the real difference in the Wizard and Sorcerers' powers: the sheer quantity of options available to the Wizard at any given time. As far as direct power, the Sorcerer has tools to generally hit harder than the Wizard at any point that they're casting the same levels of spells (Spellsurge+metamagic; Arcane Fusion), so it's versatility that needs to be addressed.

If you want it to work on the same scale as the Wizard, you'll probably want to ship in the Spirit Shaman spell mechanic, or translate the Erudite's general concept into the Sorcerer's spells known slots.

[Randomguy]

Skill points: Sorcerers can now almost compare with wizards here, but not quite because of a wizard's high int.

Spell progression: Sorcerers no longer have a disadvantage.

Bonus feats: Three more than a wizard now. The only real advantage sorcerers have over the wizard, aside from spontaneous casting.

Bonus feats can't really throw the game out of balance. The fighter class proved that in core.

The only real difference between the original sorcerer and this fix is that people will only prestige out after level 5, instead of level 4, and gain a bit more from the base class.

Nothing can really compare with abrupt jaunt, other than celerity. It's basically a step closer to invlunerability, since it can negate almost any attack. (Also, I don't think generalists can get abrupt jaunt, only conjuration specialists. Unless Elven generalist changes that).

One thing that might make sorcerers truly on par with wizards is let them choose any spell from any base class list, other than conjuration (Healing) spells. Sure, not that many spells are worth casting over and over, but this way they'd be able to pick all of the ones that are.

Why "fix" tier 2 classes to match up to tier ones and be able to break the game in more ways than before, instead of fixing lower tier classes that can't break the game at all?

[Rossebay]

Skill points: Sorcerers can now almost compare with wizards here, but not quite because of a wizard's high int.

Spell progression: Sorcerers no longer have a disadvantage.

Bonus feats: Three more than a wizard now. The only real advantage sorcerers have over the wizard, aside from spontaneous casting.

Bonus feats can't really throw the game out of balance. The fighter class proved that in core.

The only real difference between the original sorcerer and this fix is that people will only prestige out after level 5, instead of level 4, and gain a bit more from the base class.

Nothing can really compare with abrupt jaunt, other than celerity. It's basically a step closer to invlunerability, since it can negate almost any attack. (Also, I don't think generalists can get abrupt jaunt, only conjuration specialists. Unless Elven generalist changes that).

One thing that might make sorcerers truly on par with wizards is let them choose any spell from any base class list, other than conjuration (Healing) spells. Sure, not that many spells are worth casting over and over, but this way they'd be able to pick all of the ones that are.

Why "fix" tier 2 classes to match up to tier ones and be able to break the game in more ways than before, instead of fixing lower tier classes that can't break the game at all?

We have a good bunch of homebrew fixes in place, this is just our most recent.

And, since Elven Generalists technically specialize in everything, our DM let it fly.

He basically said, "Wow, I really like this fix. But, promise me one thing. Don't break my game."

So, I won't. I'm just looking at a more interesting playthrough as a Sorcerer. It's exciting, really.

Still, any ideas?


Side note: Do you know of any great ways to legally grant Sorcerers more spells known? Like, through feats?

[lord pringle]

Side note: Do you know of any great ways to legally grant Sorcerers more spells known? Like, through feats?

Mother Cyst from Libris Mortis and Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium.

[Zaq]

Nothing can really compare with abrupt jaunt, other than celerity. It's basically a step closer to invlunerability, since it can negate almost any attack. (Also, I don't think generalists can get abrupt jaunt, only conjuration specialists. Unless Elven generalist changes that).

I see your Abrupt Jaunt and raise you Wings of Cover. Abrupt Jaunt has the edge in that it shows up sooner, but I'd put them about on par with each other in terms of attack-negation.

Anyway, on-topic, I don't think the Sorc needs anything better than it already has (phenomenal cosmic power isn't enough for you?), but if you're playing with a party full of T1 characters plus the Sorc, this isn't the worst fix you could propose.

[ericgrau]

Side note: Do you know of any great ways to legally grant Sorcerers more spells known? Like, through feats?
Try runestaves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070216a).

I should also note that wizards don't have that many more unique spells prepared than a sorcerer. And this number of options decreases every time the wizard would benefit from preparing the same spell twice. After the morning is over the sorcerer actually gets more versatility because he can cast the same spell 3 times without losing the ability to cast the other 1-4 spells on the same level. And even apply situational metamagic to it like heighten or still without worrying about whether or not the metamagic will be worth it. Metamagic is really good on sorcerers (situational or not).

What you do lose is swapability, which is handy but much more minor. Thus you should only put frequently useful spells on your list and use scrolls for rarely used low level spells. Wizards should also use scrolls for rarely used low level spells anyway. Avoid the trap of spending excessive resources or getting something lousy just because you think you need to "know" more. Making your spells known what a wizard would prepare on a day when he doesn't know what's coming is a good idea.

So spells known are nice but I'd focus more on a spell list that's good for the average day and on metamagic.

[Zeta Kai]

The way to "fix" a Tier 2 class is not to make it more like a Tier 1 class. It's like trying to "fix" the Flash or Green Lantern because they're not enough like Superman.

[Randomguy]

I see your Abrupt Jaunt and raise you Wings of Cover. Abrupt Jaunt has the edge in that it shows up sooner, but I'd put them about on par with each other in terms of attack-negation.


Forgot about that nifty little spell. Good point.

[MammonAzrael]

How do you "fix" a sorcerer? Play a Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage. :smallsmile:

[Mystify]

I didn't realize sorcerers needed fixing. At least, not in this direction.

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I have great timing!

[Rossebay]

Meh. Trial run. I'll let y'all know how it works out.

[FMArthur]

I just give them the damn bonus feats and bumped-up spell progression. It doesn't actually equalize them, but it 'equalizes' them in a game consistency manner, which matters to me. Spontaneous casting is a fun variant system that you pay for by not getting to prepare any spells you want. It is voluntary depowerment in that way. The thoughtless game designers decided they needed to pay in pretty much every single other way, too, and I don't see the point in preserving that. You haven't powered up your game any by simply giving an incomplete Tier 2 class some tertiary features that its Tier 1 counterpart already has. It really isn't a big deal.

[Mystify]

I just give them the damn bonus feats and bumped-up spell progression. It doesn't actually equalize them, but it 'equalizes' them in a game consistency manner, which matters to me. Spontaneous casting is a fun variant system that you pay for by not getting to prepare any spells you want. It is voluntary depowerment in that way. The thoughtless game designers decided they needed to pay in pretty much every single other way, too, and I don't see the point in preserving that. You haven't powered up your game any by simply giving an incomplete Tier 2 class some tertiary features that its Tier 1 counterpart already has. It really isn't a big deal.
Except you have just made one of the strongest classes even stronger. Unless anything below tier 2 is not used, then everything else should have a significant boost as well. Just because there is something stronger does not mean it needs a boost.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In my games, every class gets at least 4 base skill points/level, and every skill is a class skill for every class except UMD and Iaijutsu Focus.

Beyond that, I give Sorcerers bonus feats at 1st and every five levels, the same levels as Wizards get them. Their feat choices are either Eschew Materials or Draconic Heritage at 1st, and any Metamagic or Draconic feat they qualify for every five levels.

They still never get played.

[FMArthur]

Except you have just made one of the strongest classes even stronger. Unless anything below tier 2 is not used, then everything else should have a significant boost as well. Just because there is something stronger does not mean it needs a boost.

If your change can get someone to play a sorcerer instead of a wizard, and it is still weaker than the wizard, you have made a net gain for game balance. You shouldn't actively punish picking the lesser evil if you've already made the decision to allow both evils to exist. If you're letting them both be options, there are worse nightmares than having to prepare for a game with a sorcerer with bonus feats.

[Mystify]

If your change can get someone to play a sorcerer instead of a wizard, and it is still weaker than the wizard, you have made a net gain for game balance. You shouldn't actively punish picking the lesser evil if you've already made the decision to allow both evils to exist. If you're letting them both be options, there are worse nightmares than having to prepare for a game with a sorcerer with bonus feats.

So you are saying nobody ever plays tier 2 classes? Nobody ever plays a sorcerer? Sorcerer is plenty strong on its own.

[DeAnno]

The way to "fix" a Tier 2 class is not to make it more like a Tier 1 class. It's like trying to "fix" the Flash or Green Lantern because they're not enough like Superman.

I would actually say the Green Lantern is T1 and Superman is merely a strong T2, but that's probably beside the point.

[FMArthur]

So you are saying nobody ever plays tier 2 classes? Nobody ever plays a sorcerer? Sorcerer is plenty strong on its own.

No, and no. Those are not things I am saying. :smallconfused:

[Suddo]

Beyond the silly spell progression Pathfinder does some cool things for sorcs. I'd be perfectly fine if one of my players ask to play a PF sorc in a mid to high OP game.

[Mystify]

No, and no. Those are not things I am saying. :smallconfused:
Sorry, I misinterpreted your post.

But making powerful options more powerful to be competitive with the most powerful option is not a net gain for game balance, not unless everything is raised in a similar manner. Bringing wizards down to the level of sorcerers by delaying their spells by a level and removing bonus feats would be a shift to balance. It still eliminates those discrepancies, but it does it by bringing the powerful class down.

[DrDeth]

The way to "fix" a Tier 2 class is not to make it more like a Tier 1 class. It's like trying to "fix" the Flash or Green Lantern because they're not enough like Superman.

True. I admit some of my DMs have give the sorc Eschew materials for free (hardly a power increase) or a feat choice instead of a familiar.

But it hardly needs a fix. More SkP? Well, I gave out bonus SkP @ 1st, just for background skills- craft, profession, some Ks.

Or just be a human and don't dump Int.

Sorc don;t need any fixing. If you must "fix" anything nerf Wizard.

[DeAnno]

Its really entirely party and campaign dependent. On one side you have the valid argument that the Sorcerer is not only T2, but one of the most powerful T2 classes, and that unlike many other classes it has excellent splat support and numerous powerful options all its own. Well-splatted Sorcerers have excellent action economy, second only to Psions really, alongside the power of the Sorc/Wiz list.

On the other hand the physical base class looks like the most boring chassis in the game, and the only valid reason to stay a Sorcerer past level 6 is if you're too feat starved for the average PRCs and all the good PRCs are banned. It's worse than the wizard at doing most things, and harder to build effectively than a wizard for a new player. A Sorcerer is no Warblade or Psion, and it is very easy to just massively screw one up while building it. So there is merit both to the idea of making the class more "shiny" and of bringing it "up to par" with the Wizard.

For my part, if I was running a game I would leave open all the RAI avenues that help Sorcs get a leg up (Greater Rite Yes; Loredrake No), and could probably be persuaded to give out significant amounts of bonus feats from level 7 up (7, 10, 13, 16, 19 would probably be pretty fair), to make remaining in class somewhat of a more viable option.

Does PF correct the level-behind thing or just give them heritages? I know Human Sorcs in PF can get a zillion extra spells, which strikes me as sort of dumb (in that it's limited to Humans) but whatever I guess that means you can't be a Kobold so it's a fair trade.