Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

[Sir Rigel]

I have heard from several people I have played with... that Psionics are Broken... So I ask, Are Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking; from a Player's or a DM's Perspective.

[Manateee]

Way less gamebreaking than core magic.
Whatever that's worth.

Edit:
The only really broken things in Psionics (short of in-depth optimization) are:
Anticipatory Strike - it's the Sorcerer/Wizard's Celerity spell, but psionic.
Metamorphosis - it's Polymorph, but more limited.
Spell-to-Power Erudite - it can do what the Wizard does. There are a couple extra exploits from where magic and psionics overlap, but largely the problem is its Wizard-ness.
Schism - Extra actions, but similar and generally less abusable than the Sorcerer/Wizard Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, due to its stunted duration.
Contingency, Psionic - It's the contingency spell, but psionic.
Synchronicity - The only thing really broken Psionics has without a Sorcerer/Wizard analog. Really cool idea, but poor implementation. Even in high-optimization groups, generally deserves a condescending look and a stern "no."

Overall, it's weaker than arcane casting, characters have fewer breakable options, and generally have fewer options available at a time.

The one thing that's a bit awkward about it on the DM's end of the table is rationing NPC PP - generally enemies are only going to show up for one encounter, compared to the PC's 4 encounters daily. As such, they typically have more freedom to blow high-PP powers. But this is a problem with Arcane/Divine casting too, and shouldn't be anything to catch someone who's used them off-guard.

[Mystify]

From what I've heard, the initial versions of psionics were very problematic, which got people into the notion that psiocs was broken. The current version is supposed to be much better.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Psionics are not broken in any way, except for the TO tricks that arcane and divine casters have even more of.

Some DMs think they're OP because they ignore AMFs and SR, but they don't since the default rule is psionics-magic transparency.

Other DMs might think they're OP because they can change the effect of their Energy powers on the fly or have a number of points rather than certain spells, but that's not OP, just flexible, especially since the psionic classes are limited to a certain number of powers known anyway.

Other DMs think they're OP because they can focus all their power points into a single power, but they can't, because you cannot invest more PP in a single power use than your manifester level.

[ericgrau]

There are misconceptions about them that break things, especially when mishandled or the rules aren't well understood. There are also valid things that are annoying like the lack of somatic or verbal components. Sure in TO magic can be broken harder, but the simpler counters to magic that work in casual games often don't work against psionics. Or the ludicrous bonuses psychic warriors get to grappling which can be very significant in casual games. And this annoys people who don't like splatbook tricks in general that bypass standard counters. The main issue is that it's this way out of the box; players don't pull some cheap trick to get it. Most of the truly broken stuff has been errata'd and splatbooks have bigger tricks if you try, but without trying psionics can still cause lesser problems in casual games.

In our group some of us have a habit of making fun of psionic characters every time they do something really good, though I think only half the time is it actually too strong compared to what's normally used in a casual game.

[avr]

Psionics are prone to falling into a rut - the character spamming a single tactic over and over. The augmentation system makes this easy to do, the limited number of powers (especially for wilders!) encourages it too. That said, if you're playing the character to some degree keeping it interesting is your responsibility.

Optimising psi, especially if blasting is easier than magic but ultimately less rewarding.

[Zeta Kai]

Psionics in 3.5/PF get a bad rap from previous editions. Despite the fact that they are better designed than the standard Vancian spell-casting, they still carry the unbalanced legacy of the past. AD&D psionics was way overpowered compared to magic, & 3.0 psionics was poorly-written in the extreme (like Truenaming bad). Players in this industry have a long memory, for good or ill.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Where is Psyren when we need him?

Psionics is just a new system, and like ToB in this regard, makes people outright ban it before even playing it just because they don't want to learn it. It has its abuses just like any system but as a whole it's really good.

[Godskook]

Psionics suffers from the same problem as ToB, but to a lesser degree: A lack of optimization isn't as crippling as it is for core classes(minus Soulknife). For low-OP games, this *IS* a problem, since they have a hard time dialing back. Worse, psionics is *GREAT* at the one thing low-OP players want their casters to be able to do, blasting. Particularly devastating as a DM, you can easily wipe a party using SRD blasting powers.

[Godskook]

Psionics suffers from the same problem as ToB, but to a lesser degree: A lack of optimization isn't as crippling as it is for core classes(minus Soulknife). For low-OP games, this *IS* a problem, since they have a hard time dialing back. Worse, psionics is *GREAT* at the one thing low-OP players want their casters to be able to do, blasting. Particularly devastating as a DM, you can easily wipe a party using SRD blasting powers.

On the other hand, in high-OP games, they start falling behind wizards, druids and clerics, who are more versatile.

[Feralventas]

Psionics suffers from the same problem as ToB, but to a lesser degree: A lack of optimization isn't as crippling as it is for core classes(minus Soulknife). For low-OP games, this *IS* a problem, since they have a hard time dialing back. Worse, psionics is *GREAT* at the one thing low-OP players want their casters to be able to do, blasting. Particularly devastating as a DM, you can easily wipe a party using SRD blasting powers.

On the other hand, in high-OP games, they start falling behind wizards, druids and clerics, who are more versatile.

Dialing back is pretty easy for psions and wilders, actually. They can volunteer to not spend as many power points on a given power, reducing damage capacity or duration or versatility in favor of endurance (more power points by spending more carefully). Other than that, they'd have a more difficult time only by using higher level powers that start fairly potent in their own right without augmentation.

[Chronos]

Overall, the psionic classes end up being about on a par with the sorcerer. You do gain a little extra flexibility from being able to use all of your PP on high-level powers, or all on low-level powers, depending on how the day goes (one or two big fights vs. a whole bunch of small fights), but on the other hand, there's also considerably less support for them in other books: The other books introduce a smattering of new psionic powers, but a great many more sorc/wiz spells, and likewise for meta feats, prestige classes, etc. In an SRD-only environment, psionics probably comes out a bit ahead of sorcerer, but in an all-books environment, they're a bit behind, but in either case, they're below wizards, clerics, and druids.

The bigger issue, of course, is that many DMs just don't feel that psionics fit in with the world they've created, but that's a completely independent issue from balance.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Myth: The XPH is Overpowered (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1304.0)

Here is a port from the old Wizards board of the thread of the same tittle which explained in depth why Psionics are not Overpowered.

[Gotterdammerung]

Yes, it basically comes down to a content thing.

Psionic powers are worded for more convenience and in most games convenience equals power. This makes them gamebreaking for a lot of tables.

But since Psionic powers have more careful wording, they don't suffer from as many of the unintentional glitches caused by lazy writing (See arcane spells). This makes them much more tame from a TO or high OP game perspective. This causes them to get a rep of being bad since they are close to a wizard but not as good. (Not as good meaning you can't use RAW psionics like a crowbar to pry your way into unlimited power as easily as you can with the lazily written arcane and divine spells.)

Then we get down to content. Most of the sheer power of conventional casters comes from the sheer amount of spell content. There are large portions of spells in almost every book. And more than one entire book devoted entirely to spell casters only. Example complete warrior is supposed to be about melee's but it has spell casting content in it, meanwhile the casters get complete arcane, complete divine, and complete mage all devoted to their fields. This kind of one sided content output is directly responsible for the "spellcasters are out of hand" situation we find ourselves in today. Combine this with the seemingly non-existent communication between designers and lazy writing, and we end up with spells that do the same thing with the same fluff and justification but stack anyway, spells that do more than the RAI meant for them to do, and series of spells that work together to bypass game mechanics in general to bestow god-like power.

Psionics does not have this kind of content, and in comparison to normal spellcasting, psionics has been worded well. So it is out of position to unseat the solid T1 casters. I still feel it should be classified as a T1, even though it is not as powerful as wizard it can still meet T1 criteria. It is just not the most powerful T1.

Having said all that, there is still ways for psion to be game breaking in a High OP or TO setting.

There are ways to gain all the powers known, then gain infinite power points, then duplicate those powers and pass them out to your party essentially turning your party into equal lvl broken psionicists with infinite power points as well as whatever they normally do. If you throw Spell to power erudite into that mix... you win.


In no way shape or form is psionics "bad". (unless you mean bad in a gamebreaking way).

[Manateee]

The thing that makes the Wizard stronger than the Psion isn't lazy wording or broken splatbook content.

It's things like Planar Binding, spellbooks or metamagic, used exactly as they're supposed to be used. Psions just don't have anything that comes close to rivaling that.

[ericgrau]

I don't think I've ever seen a player cast planar binding in my entire life. Using a psionic power without a verbal or somatic component OTOH is impossible to avoid.

It's not that bad and the group I'm in uses it without major headaches but it has its issues that do come up frequently. For the OP: feel free to use psionics but get really familiar with it first to avoid the common DM/player mistakes others listed and likewise treat it like you would any other additional material and so expect some things to be strong.

[Coidzor]

They must first be understood in order to prepare you to fight legends.

[Novawurmson]

If you already allow Sorcerers, Wizards, Druids, and Clerics, then Psionics are just another fun system with its own set of strengths and weaknesses.

I figure it bears repeating, so I'll say it again: You cannot spend more PP on a power than your manifester level!

[Zeta Kai]

Psionics is just a new system, and like ToB in this regard, makes people outright ban it before even playing it just because they don't want to learn it.

Excuse me? New? LOLwut? Psionics was first introduced in the book Eldritch Wizardry in 1976. That's two years after the game was first created. Psionics is many things, but "new" is not one of them.

[DeAnno]

Psionics can be used to break the action economy in half, but doing so is often very expensive in PP and requires a certain amount of build investment as well. In fields other than action economy, it is at best equal to its Arcane or Divine counterparts.

[Mystify]

Excuse me? New? LOLwut? Psionics was first introduced in the book Eldritch Wizardry in 1976. That's two years after the game was first created. Psionics is many things, but "new" is not one of them.

What if he says its a different system, and people don't want to learn it?

[jaybird]

The most broken thing about Psionics is the class that gets Arcane spells. That should say a lot about relative power levels.

[Sir Rigel]

What if he says its a different system, and people don't want to learn it?
Oh, I guess I should give a little backstory...
I am currently in a campaign (3.5 + 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide) with two different DMs one of them handles the Roleplay aspects of it, and the other handles the Combat, more or less.

The DM who handles the Roleplay (and is the head DM) is indifferent against psionics, but Our combat DM has a High aversion to it, as in every time I bring it up he acts like he is going to throw the Monster Manual at the first Psionic character I roll up... Unfortunately I have a backup character that I would like to play (if I die) that would be a Wilder/Spelltheif, with the baseline concept of I can haz EVERYTHING! (due to the Psitheif Feat in Complete Scoundrel) not Only that but I figured it might be cool to make a character that is very blatantly anti-spells, and anti-psionics.

Not only that but I fear that My Party, or certain members of my party may or may not kill off my character because... well, he is an arcane caster in a world that, more or less Hates the arcane... or I may slip up and accidentally reveal my self to a NPC That I am arcane... due to detect magic, or something else.

[CTrees]

One of my players thinks psionics is WILDLY OVERPOWERED (oh noe!). Sorry, but his aversion is extreme enough, I have to mock it. From what I can tell, this stems from one character he made several years back, to a higher op level than the rest of the party, "going nova" impressively in one mass battle against hordes of weaker enemies. Blasted a surprising amount, thus psionics is ridiculous, forever.

[Gotterdammerung]

The thing that makes the Wizard stronger than the Psion isn't lazy wording or broken splatbook content.

It's things like Planar Binding, spellbooks or metamagic, used exactly as they're supposed to be used. Psions just don't have anything that comes close to rivaling that.

Planar Binding- Not broke until you use TO tricks to bypass its checks and balances, removing the risks from the spell. These tricks come from the massive content a normal caster gets to play with. This content also vastly improves the possibilities of Planar binding by introducing new monsters. Very little of this content is compatible with a psionicist. The point about content stands.

Spell Books- I assume you mean the way they can learn every spell. Still, spellbooks as nice as they are, have their own checks and balances, and a psion has tricks to learn every power. I don't see how spellbooks become a relevant lead for wizards over psions.

Metamagics- Metamagics arent broke until you add in all the content that backs them up. Again the point about content still stands.



Psions just don't have anything that comes close to rivaling that.

I think getting infinite power points and then using those power points to perform the "mad minute" (basically an infinite time stop) qualifies as coming "close to rivaling that". Hell, gettings all powers known and infinite power points comes close. And then putting it all together to give all your party members all powers and infinite power points kinda puts us there. Yep, we are there.

[Zaq]

Psionics is overpowered, but normal spellcasting is way more broken. If you consider Sorcerers and Clerics to not be broken, then psionics isn't broken either. It's magic, though, and in 3.5, more magic = more better. Full manifesting classes are really only a half-step behind full casting classes for sheer power.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Excuse me? New? LOLwut? Psionics was first introduced in the book Eldritch Wizardry in 1976. That's two years after the game was first created. Psionics is many things, but "new" is not one of them.


What if he says its a different system, and people don't want to learn it?

Mystify is correct in my meaning.

I know that two of my DMs don't like either ToB or Psionics just because they don't want to learn the new mechanics that the two systems add the the base system.

[Averis Vol]

isnt there a combo with Talented, over channel and improved over channel that lets your wilder derp around all map until the boss where he throws a full PP 1st level power with no save? it comes out to like 60d6 or something like that at lvl 10 and leaves him with 1 hp....but the boss is just gone.
(i know this isn't the whole combo but it's the basis)

[sonofzeal]

I love psi. The PP system is just plain more fun than Vancian casting. I'd play a Psion over a Wizard any day.

[sonofzeal]

isnt there a combo with Talented, over channel and improved over channel that lets your wilder derp around all map until the boss where he throws a full PP 1st level power with no save? it comes out to like 60d6 or something like that at lvl 10 and leaves him with 1 hp....but the boss is just gone.
(i know this isn't the whole combo but it's the basis)
Wilder's signature ability, Wild Surge, doesn't work with Overchannel. Either you're mis-remembering, or the person you got it from was breaking some rules.

[mikau013]

I'm not sure how a 10th lvl wilder can get an epic feat either (improved overchannel). Unless she gets a bonus feat somehow?

[dsmiles]

IME, psionics can be game breaking, but only in no-op to low-op groups. With even an "average" level of optimization, psionics are less broken than Vancian magic.
I regularly play a Thrallherd, and get accused of being a one-man party. Until I point out the fact that I do one thing well, and everthing else poorly (at best).

[Wings of Peace]

IME, psionics can be game breaking, but only in no-op to low-op groups. With even an "average" level of optimization, psionics are less broken than Vancian magic.
I regularly play a Thrallherd, and get accused of being a one-man party. Until I point out the fact that I do one thing well, and everthing else poorly (at best).

I'm not sure how many people you're going to convince with an example centering around Thrallherd. :smallwink:

[deuxhero]

I'm not sure how a 10th lvl wilder can get an epic feat either (improved overchannel). Unless she gets a bonus feat somehow?

Cheese Kobold!

[mikau013]

Cheese Kobold!

Doesn't actually work by RAW though :smalltongue:

[dsmiles]

I'm not sure how many people you're going to convince with an example centering around Thrallherd. :smallwink:And that's without actually taking my thralls adventuring. With less than full manifester (ML18 at 20th level). Of course, couple that with the (updated version of) Shadow Mind PrC (from the Mind's Eye web supplement) and I can almost keep up with an epic level Vancian caster. :smalltongue:

[Callista]

I don't think psionics are either over- or underpowered; it's more that they don't really fit, mechanically, into the game. Psionics allow a character to basically become three or four levels more powerful during their first encounter of the day, at the cost of being near-useless during all the other encounters.

D&D characters in general aren't supposed to be able to do that; the game isn't really designed with that possibility in mind. There's a limit on the amount of power a character expends per round, and psions are either way below it or way above it.

I've seen it done right, though: Psions are equally matched when the DM insists on multiple encounters per day, and after a few fights the psion learns to conserve his power. But there are so many reasons why that might not be the case. Who fights four life-or-death battles in a single day, anyway? Soldiers on the front lines, and that's about it.

I like the concept--truly, I do. It's got so much potential. But I think that without a little tweaking to prevent psions from going nova so dramatically, it's going to continue to cause problems for players and DMs alike.

[Mystify]

I don't think psionics are either over- or underpowered; it's more that they don't really fit, mechanically, into the game. Psionics allow a character to basically become three or four levels more powerful during their first encounter of the day, at the cost of being near-useless during all the other encounters.

D&D characters in general aren't supposed to be able to do that; the game isn't really designed with that possibility in mind. There's a limit on the amount of power a character expends per round, and psions are either way below it or way above it.

I've seen it done right, though: Psions are equally matched when the DM insists on multiple encounters per day, and after a few fights the psion learns to conserve his power. But there are so many reasons why that might not be the case. Who fights four life-or-death battles in a single day, anyway? Soldiers on the front lines, and that's about it.

I like the concept--truly, I do. It's got so much potential. But I think that without a little tweaking to prevent psions from going nova so dramatically, it's going to continue to cause problems for players and DMs alike.

Do they really nova any harder than a caster? Their limit on PP spent on a power equal to their manifester level caps that.

[Yora]

But spellcasters can also use all their high level slots at first opportunity. I don't think there's much of a difference.

[mikau013]

Well for psychic warriors it is kinda true, since they gain only so few power points.

[Terazul]

And spellcasters also don't have to spend PP to make their powers level appropriate, or spend PP and blow psionic focus to use a single metapower effect with the PP spent still counting against their manifester level cap. Psionics has more things working against them on nova front than spellcasters do, really. In exchange, they get powers that you can dial back if necessary, and some powers that effectively become new ones when you augment them enough. Still generally weaker, barring certain shenanigans.

And yeah, Psychic Warriors need a few more PP, honestly...

[Need_A_Life]

[A] Thrallherd [...] accused of being a one-man party.*snip*
Isn't that the whole point? You're one brainy guy and a horde of minions! :smallbiggrin:
'cause, Wizards still do it better.

Psionics is quite balanced, although certain powers need to be thrown under the bus (Quintessence, why do you exist!? :smallfurious: ) because of other reasons.
For some reason there's a crystal fixation in the whole books which resonates (no pun intended) poorly with me.

Can a Psion be freakin' scary? Yes.
More than a wizard? No.

Example: People sometimes freak over "Psionic Magic Missile" also known as Mind Thrust. "1d10 damage!" they say. Of course, there's a Will Save and it offers spell resistance making it decidedly worse than Magic Missile. Oh, and it's Mind-affecting, one of the most common immunities :smallsigh:.

"Ah, but you can augment it! 20d10 for a level 1 power!" only that's the equivalent of a Wizard using a level 9 and a level 3 spell, only they'd both be stopped by a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. Oh, and this is by 20th level, where every Wizard I've ever played threw around >40d6 Disintegrate spells.

Is True Mind Switch something that makes me salivate and want to play a Telepath just on the off chance I get to a level where I get it and get to target someone with it (heck, I'd target a party member if I have to at this point).

[Psyren]

Where is Psyren when we need him?

From what I've read, there's not much more for me to say :smallsmile:
Even the "XPH Myth" was posted.

I won't pretend that psionics is a perfect fit for every campaign though. One potential problem is that it's much harder to keep a psion from casting than a spellcaster; even a low-level psion can manifest while bound and gagged, or while grappled/pinned. This can easily have story ramifications. This includes manifesting from items - no psionic items are activated by speaking.

But from a power standpoint psionics is fine. No stacking metamagic, no illusions, very limited summons, no necromancy. They merged Evocation and Abjuration, so Kineticists are much more useful than Evokers on a comparative basis.

Psionics is stronger at a few things though - notably action economy, blasting. and divination.



And yeah, Psychic Warriors need a few more PP, honestly...

If you find yourself running dry on your Psywar, try the Meditant PrC (see the handbook in my sig.) You can easily double your base PP each day, plus additional benefits like being able to hang out on the Ethereal Plane indefinitely and no longer needing to eat/drink.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Psionics are "very good" indeed.
Not gamebreaking. The only concern is about the "action economy" that they can break with ease. But doing so will conume most of their resources, so it' not something to worry about

[Axier]

Personally, the blaster use of psionics I feel to be much more useful than wizard blasters, primarialy because they can use their abilities with little hinderance. They can also change alot of their AoE's saves to fortitude if reflex isn't working.

Hengeyokai (Sparrow)

Tiny sparrow capable of breaking minds, crushing body function, telekenetically grappling a giant, and shooting lasers, blasting various pockets of the enemy with balls of energy. Its kinda comical. Especially since you can use about all but your Int as a dump stat (Because your sparrow form has set physical stats.)

[Keld Denar]

On the other hand, psionic blasting is really expensive. An 11th level Sorc who runs out of 5th 4th and 3rd level spells, he can still plink away with 2nd level Scorching Rays for the full 12d6. The Kineticist is still sinking 11-12 PP for the same output, the equivalent of the same 5th level spells that the Sorc ran out of 6-7 rounds ago. A properly built Sorc has way more endurance than a similar leveled Psion, especially with stuff like Residual Magic and a couple of choice Metamagic feats.

[JoeYounger]

Psionics are not broken in any way, except for the TO tricks that arcane and divine casters have even more of.

Some DMs think they're OP because they ignore AMFs and SR, but they don't since the default rule is psionics-magic transparency.

Other DMs might think they're OP because they can change the effect of their Energy powers on the fly or have a number of points rather than certain spells, but that's not OP, just flexible, especially since the psionic classes are limited to a certain number of powers known anyway.

Other DMs think they're OP because they can focus all their power points into a single power, but they can't, because you cannot invest more PP in a single power use than your manifester level.

Maybe I've just had the unfortunate experience of playing with an ******* who optimizes way more than the rest of the party, or maybe its because he was using 3rd party psionic books, but my experience has been that psionics arent well balanced with the rest of the game. I've never seen a wizard with DR 20/+7 at levels well before 21. I've also never seen a wizard shape change into a dragon and get all of its supernatural and extraordinary abilities. I've also never seen a cleric who is able to make all will saves for the entire party. And I've never seen a wizard who was able to immediate action to give him self 400 more hp.

I'd like to play a game with some psionics where they dont out shine the rest of the party, but I've never seen that happen.

Like I said, its possible that he was pulling TO tricks, and it would have been just as stupid on a wizard, but even he admitted that he thought the Psion was the strongest character hed ever seen. I've had nothing but bad experiences with psionics.

[Sir Rigel]

Maybe I've just had the unfortunate experience of playing with an ******* who optimizes way more than the rest of the party, or maybe its because he was using 3rd party psionic books, but my experience has been that psionics arent well balanced with the rest of the game. I've never seen a wizard with DR 20/+7 at levels well before 21. I've also never seen a wizard shape change into a dragon and get all of its supernatural and extraordinary abilities. I've also never seen a cleric who is able to make all will saves for the entire party. And I've never seen a wizard who was able to immediate action to give him self 400 more hp.

I'd like to play a game with some psionics where they dont out shine the rest of the party, but I've never seen that happen.

Like I said, its possible that he was pulling TO tricks, and it would have been just as stupid on a wizard, but even he admitted that he thought the Psion was the strongest character hed ever seen. I've had nothing but bad experiences with psionics.

Whoa... what books was he using, and what class was he?

[Psyren]

I've never seen a wizard with DR 20/+7 at levels well before 21.

Judging by that DR number, it sounds like you were playing 3.0. 3.0 psionics are indeed unbalanced and cannot be used to judge the proper 3.5 system.

[JoeYounger]

Yeah, he was using a lot of Mahlalvoc and Dreamscarred press books. 3.0 3rd party books. I begged the DM to not allow them, but they were bff's from highschool. He also pulled some messed up stuff on the party where he had the buff on us where he made our will saves, and then he would dominate us and intentionally fail the safe. He was an awesome guy to play with =/

[Sir Rigel]

Yeah, he was using a lot of Mahlalvoc and Dreamscarred press books. 3.0 3rd party books.

Ah, that would explain it... very few third party books I have seen are balanced at all...

[Psyren]

3.0 Psionics AND third-party? You may as well have used dandwiki, followed by flicking rubber bands at each other and giggling uncontrollably.

[Doug Lampert]

Do they really nova any harder than a caster? Their limit on PP spent on a power equal to their manifester level caps that.


But spellcasters can also use all their high level slots at first opportunity. I don't think there's much of a difference.

A level 9 psion with 20-27 in his ability has 22-36 bonus PP and 72 from class. If he has no way to use more than 9 PP at once he can hit with 9-10 top powers, and then he's done.

A level 9 cleric with the same abilities has 3 level 5 spells, 4-5 level 4 spells, 5-6 level 3 spells, 6-7 level 2 spells, 7 level 1 spells, and 6 cantrips.

So who runs out faster depends on just when you think the cleric is "out" if the cleric is "out" when he's out of level 5 spells, then the cleric is much less durable, level 4-5 spells, it's comparable, but the cleric is slightly less durable, level 3-5 spells, the cleric is better off.

Now consider that level 2 spells can be used for significant buffs (or what level is rope trick again?). Or a level 1 arcane caster can still very reliably do 15-20 damage with level 1 slots at character level 9.

The Psion CAN'T blow his wad on a single encounter unless he's violating action economy (which he can do), but he's more fragile than an vancian caster simply because the vancian caster is forced by the mechanics to have 28+ spells at mid level.

[Manateee]

Yeah, he was using a lot of Mahlalvoc and Dreamscarred press books. 3.0 3rd party books. I begged the DM to not allow them, but they were bff's from highschool.
If you're talking about Hyperconscious, those are some of the best-done supplements 3rd edition has. BFFsies or no.

But it sounds like he was tacking them onto the broken 3.0 system, which would seriously be a problem.

Edit:
And on the specifics that apply to 3.5, the Psion has Metamorphic Transfer, but that's a super-limited version of the Assume Supernatural Ability feat available to the Wizard. The other things are pretty mediocre - the Psion can give itself 200 HP as a swift action in the same way and at a higher cost than the Cleric healing himself 200 damage as a swift action. And the Iron Mind's will saves ability is quirky unique, and hardly broken.

[JoeYounger]

3.0 Psionics AND third-party? You may as well have used dandwiki, followed by flicking rubber bands at each other and giggling uncontrollably.

This might be my favorite thing I've read on these forums to date. lol

[The-Mage-King]

3.0 Psionics AND third-party? You may as well have used dandwiki, followed by flicking rubber bands at each other and giggling uncontrollably.

..Mind if I sig this?

[Psyren]

I always get embarrassed when people ask me that, but go ahead. :smallredface:



Anyway, I had a write-up on the Pros and Cons of both Magic and Psionics floating around somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

Do note though that Psionics has more support throughout 3.5 than most people realize, especially with regards to prestige classes. The adaptations tend to be overlooked because they are both buried (typically in a sentence right at the end of the PrC entry) and usually vague (often little more than "Hey, we think it would be okay for you to homebrew this if you want.") For instance, almost nobody mentions the Psionic Chameleon, despite that being a very interesting PrC option (read the adaptation here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) or in RoD.)

[Sir Rigel]

Ok, Thank you Psyren! I look forward to reading thru that Pros and Cons list!

[MysticMind]

Well, Psionics aren't really broken. Psionic characters trade the big number of choices for ''power points'', that give them great versatility.They also have a non-magic basis, which makes them particularly hard for a DM to fit 'em in a magic dominated world. My party has a psion and our DM let him say that he has an ''alien'' ancestor, and so he developed some UFO powers :P, so there''s no need to include all these hard and strange psionic rules. As regards power, they just need more healing abilities :D


{Scrubbed}

[Rubik]

They also have a non-magic basis, which makes them particularly hard for a DM to fit 'em in a magic dominated world.All you have to do is say, "I'm magic!" and you're good.

It's REALLY easy enough to fluff them as racial spell-like abilities, or as mind magic, or as sorcerer abilities (and all the fluff THAT implies). You just have a slightly more efficient way of casting your spells (in that they don't need goobley-gunk, silly little dances, or a rousing rendition of "I'm a Little Teapot").

Basically, it follows the majority of non-D&D fantasy books' version of magic REALLY closely. At least, the books I've read.

[DrDeth]

The main problem (and good thing) with psionics is that they are different. Thus, the player and the DM may be not seeing something and thus playing something wrong. This can make psionics very powerful esp with their ability to Nova like crazy. DMs’ do have to watch Psions and the 1 minute adventuring day, but same with Wizards, too.

Mind you, the system is no more difficult than Vancian, it’s just that we’re all used to Vancian.

We found the Psionic version of Timestop to be very annoying in one high level game. The rest of us could go out for a pizza while the Psion did his turn. ;-)

[Zaranthan]

flicking rubber bands at each other and giggling uncontrollably.

What sort of lame-o gaming group DOESN'T do this every session?

[Chronos]

MysticMind, you can also get almost everything in the XPH from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org), which also has the advantage of actually being legal.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm not sure if I have been ninjad or not, but there is a handbook specifically about this myth!

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered

There you go! =D

Now, some of the exotic stuff from psionics is broken or theoretical optimization, but in general, the system is actually significantly more balanced than the vancian casters.

[Rubik]

I'm not sure if I have been ninjad or notYes. Yes you were. :smallwink:

[hex0]

In Gestalt, the power point stacking gets much more ridiculous than the arcane counterparts. Especially when you can go:

Psion/Wilder 5
Psion 10/Metamind 10

[mikau013]

In Gestalt, the power point stacking gets much more ridiculous than the arcane counterparts. Especially when you can go:

Psion/Wilder 5
Psion 10/Metamind 10

Psions and wilders have seperate manifester levels though. So if you're for example, psion 5/ wilder 5
You can normally only spend 5 points on a psion manifestation or 5 points on a wilder manifestation.

[Rubik]

In Gestalt, the power point stacking gets much more ridiculous than the arcane counterparts. Especially when you can go:

Psion/Wilder 5
Psion 10/Metamind 10And yet casters get separate spell slots AND they get more bang per slot than a manifester does for his power points due to auto-scaling.

I think it's perfectly fair.

If the DM wants to alter it so both pools are separate, that's fine IMO (so long as he gets all the resources he's entitled to).

[Gotterdammerung]

IME, psionics can be game breaking, but only in no-op to low-op groups. With even an "average" level of optimization, psionics are less broken than Vancian magic.
I regularly play a Thrallherd, and get accused of being a one-man party. Until I point out the fact that I do one thing well, and everthing else poorly (at best). And that's without actually taking my thralls adventuring. With less than full manifester (ML18 at 20th level). Of course, couple that with the (updated version of) Shadow Mind PrC (from the Mind's Eye web supplement) and I can almost keep up with an epic level Vancian caster. :smalltongue:

Yes, but in your example you aren't using everything available to you. So obviously you wouldn't keep up in a high-op game.

If you do use everything available to you, you can use psionic restoration in combination with any level draining effect to gain the free exp to use psychic chirurgy. You would then call a thrall with powers, learn them all, kill the thrall and call a new one with new powers. Once all the powers were learned, you could then call a series of StP Erudite thralls and learn all the arcane spells as well. And then you could make all your thralls 18th manifester lvl psions with all powers and spells known on top of whatever else they normally do. Those are some pretty powerful expendable resources.

You can't willingly restrict your character then use it as an example of how psion can't hang in OP games. That is a strawman.



The most broken thing about Psionics is the class that gets Arcane spells. That should say a lot about relative power levels.

The power of a StP erudite is not simply access to arcane spells. In many cases psionic powers are better than there arcane counterparts. Psionics has TO tricks that arcane casters cant do. The power comes from the ability to take everything good and broke about psionics and then take everything good and broke about arcane casting. Combining both worlds together on one character turns that guy into something greater than the 2 parts. StP erudite does not bring a psion up to the level of a wizard, it skyrockets psion to the absolute top of the ladder (a Tier 0 if you will).

A StP Erudite with 1 lvl of thrall herd (6th lvl) can have infinite power points all 3rd lvl and lower arcane spells and all 3rd lvl and lower powers known without any support or help from outside of character sources. That is significantly greater than just a 6th lvl wizard.

[Rubik]

The power of a StP erudite is not simply access to arcane spells. In many cases psionic powers are better than there arcane counterparts. Psionics has TO tricks that arcane casters cant do. The power comes from the ability to take everything good and broke about psionics and then take everything good and broke about arcane casting. Combining both worlds together on one character turns that guy into something greater than the 2 parts. StP erudite does not bring a psion up to the level of a wizard, it skyrockets psion to the absolute top of the ladder (a Tier 0 if you will).Very much agreed. StP erudites are among the most powerful characters in the game, just under Pun Pun level.

That's exactly why I'd choose the class if I ever got to turn myself into a D&D character IRL. Factotum on the other side of the gestalt, of course (I did mention it was gestalt, right?).

[Cor1]

Under Pun-pun level? Sorry, no. Pun-pun is out of the rules. Also, theoretically, every Wizard is a potential Pun-pun : meet Sarrukh, Gate out, Wish to Shapechange into one for getting around non-replication clause, Assume Supernatural Ability : congratulations, you are now Pun-pun.

A basic, D&D Wizard, reasonably efficient, makes the other party members win battles, while staying safe himself.

A basic, unoptimized Psion, with only Psionic Reformation, is just a Wizard who spends XP to prepare new spells.


An über-optimized, straight Psion (no prestige classes) is a machine made for breaking the action economy in very, very small pieces. And I'm not even talking about Synchronicity. A game-breaking Psion has fun breaking the action economy with power usage clauses. Synchronicity? That's the easy mode.

My current build in a heavily optimized campaign can end up like this, within all of one immediate action :

Self : 1 standard round
Self's body, controlled by Control Body, maintained as swift action (possibly by psicrystal) : 1 standard round of physical actions
2 Schisms : 1 standard mental action
2 psicrystals : 1 standard round each. Psicrystals get feats by HD, and they have as many HD as you do. Hidden Talent + Practiced Manifester : they Bestow Power on you in your Affinity Field. They each spend their 3pp, get four back (they ARE Psionic Creatures), and you and your clone get two back, too.
Fissioned clone : 1 standard round
Fissioned clone's body : 1 standard physical round
Fissioned clone's Schisms : 1 standard mental action each
2 psicrystals : 1 standard round each. Have them control each other's bodies for cheap giggles.

Who needs Synchronicity, again? By that point, you're a small army anyway.


It depends on the level of optimization in the group. I love being powerful enough to stop anything, and I will not go nova all that much if it's not strictly necessary.
But if something is dangerous enough that I need to kill the Metamind just to revive him so that his Font of Power will be available again, well, "we can do that all day erry day, as long as we gain at least 20xp per round". It's one power and one class feature. High-level D&D is DESIGNED to be at that level of power, is all.


Edited out : new psionic tricks. Watch out for them soon in the proper thread.

[Mystify]

High-level D&D is DESIGNED to be at that level of power.
Somebody should tell the designers of the martial classes that.

[Socratov]

Somebody should tell the designers of the martial classes that.

nah, they were just too late when the awesomeness was being handed out...

[Keld Denar]

Friends don't let friends manifest Affinity Field.

[DrDeth]

Somebody should tell the designers of the martial classes that.

Part of the Design of D&D in all editions (and I will call PF a edition for this purpose) is that Wizards are more powerful at high levels. The one execption is 4th ED, and I actually find the fact that the classes there are overly balanced to be a tad boring.

Still a Epic level Fighter with 10 levels in a good prestige class is completely awesome. Just not as awesome.

[mikau013]

Still a Epic level Fighter with 10 levels in a good prestige class is completely awesome. Just not as awesome.

Well a fighter with Ur-Priest is kinda nice yeah.

[Mystify]

Part of the Design of D&D in all editions (and I will call PF a edition for this purpose) is that Wizards are more powerful at high levels. The one execption is 4th ED, and I actually find the fact that the classes there are overly balanced to be a tad boring.

Still a Epic level Fighter with 10 levels in a good prestige class is completely awesome. Just not as awesome.

It is a design feature, but it is not a good one. the problem with 4e is not that the classes are balanced, its that they are doing things in too similar a manner, and they put a stranglehold on your customization.

Look at Legend (ruleofcool.com). It has a wide variety of classes, which are played in very different manners, but are all well-balanced against each other at all levels, while keeping a high degree of versatility and customization. And the end result is amazing. I've shown to fans of both 4e and 3.5, and they all loved it. A level 20 martial class has plenty of awesome in its own right, as are any caster classes, or mixed builds.

[Rejakor]

Oh, I guess I should give a little backstory...
I am currently in a campaign (3.5 + 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide) with two different DMs one of them handles the Roleplay aspects of it, and the other handles the Combat, more or less.

The DM who handles the Roleplay (and is the head DM) is indifferent against psionics, but Our combat DM has a High aversion to it, as in every time I bring it up he acts like he is going to throw the Monster Manual at the first Psionic character I roll up... Unfortunately I have a backup character that I would like to play (if I die) that would be a Wilder/Spelltheif, with the baseline concept of I can haz EVERYTHING! (due to the Psitheif Feat in Complete Scoundrel) not Only that but I figured it might be cool to make a character that is very blatantly anti-spells, and anti-psionics.

Not only that but I fear that My Party, or certain members of my party may or may not kill off my character because... well, he is an arcane caster in a world that, more or less Hates the arcane... or I may slip up and accidentally reveal my self to a NPC That I am arcane... due to detect magic, or something else.

There are ways to get around detect magic etc, either through cleverness or a variety of things including spells, templates, skill tricks etc.

Also keep in mind that detect magic by RAW doesn't detect spellcasters - it detects active spells and magic items.

Any GM who 'hates' certain classes is by definition a bad GM in that regard. They might have other factors that make it still worth playing in their game, but it's a major warning sign as there is no reason to ever 'hate' a specific kind of character - much less to act against it in-game. It's the absolute worst kind of GM partisanship to do so.

[Darth Stabber]

Since is discovered that 3.5 psionics were no where near as borked as 3.0 psionics, I have had a very hard time bringing myself to play wizard. Wizard can do anything a psion can do, and do it better, including smashing the action economy into tiny pieces, but psion is much easier on the book keeping, letting me ignore the minutia and get back to being a proper murder hobo. I will say that crystal swarm is kinda broken, but even then a 20' cone of no save, no sr, no attack roll piercing damage is only so good.

[Andreaz]

Since is discovered that 3.5 psionics were no where near as borked as 3.0 psionics, I have had a very hard time bringing myself to play wizard. Wizard can do anything a psion can do, and do it better, including smashing the action economy into tiny pieces, but psion is much easier on the book keeping, letting me ignore the minutia and get back to being a proper murder hobo. I will say that crystal swarm is kinda broken, but even then a 20' cone of no save, no sr, no attack roll piercing damage is only so good.Pretty much the same as my case. Almost every time I play a vancian caster it's actually a gish, and only because of the associated prestige classes. And Mirror Image, I love that little spell.
But then I remembered I'm good at adapting stuff to pf and to psionics (and pf psionics are the best thing ever ever ever ever ever ever!). So now I have a psionic swiftblade. Just need to find an item of mirror image now...

[Rejakor]

There's lots of no save no SR damage spells wizards get. Hail of Stone is a good first level one. The 'Orb' series don't even allow reflex saves.


And yeah, i'd give a psion to a new player over a wizard (although vancian magic has wormed it's way into public consciousness via computer RPGs and books - so there's kind of a parity there), especially since a lot of the stuff psions do is actually more interesting than stuff wizards do. Wizards do horrible physical changes, brute-force spellcasting, and crazy planar summoning bullcrap. Psionics is a lot more time and mind-focused, and more subtle (except for the blasting, which is if anything less subtle).

[Blue1005]

Psionics are not broken in any way, except for the TO tricks that arcane and divine casters have even more of.

Some DMs think they're OP because they ignore AMFs and SR, but they don't since the default rule is psionics-magic transparency.

Other DMs might think they're OP because they can change the effect of their Energy powers on the fly or have a number of points rather than certain spells, but that's not OP, just flexible, especially since the psionic classes are limited to a certain number of powers known anyway.

Other DMs think they're OP because they can focus all their power points into a single power, but they can't, because you cannot invest more PP in a single power use than your manifester level.




Can i buy a vowel? Trying to read and did not understand all the abbreviations.




I like psionics, they are a nice change and depending if you count them same or different than magic they are special or just a different user. Overall I have one in my game and ANY magicish class will dominate the minions. Overall I love them and would gladly play one if I could.

[TuggyNE]

Can i buy a vowel? Trying to read and did not understand all the abbreviations.

TO = Theoretical Optimization, an armchair exercise in stretching an idea or hole in the rules until it pops. Often opposed to PO, or practical optimization, the construction of a character build for actual use in a normal game at a given power level.
OP = overpowered.
AMF = antimagic field, Sorcerer/Wizard 6 and Cleric 8 spell.
SR = Spell Resistance.

[Darius Kane]

Gamebreaking.

[Andreaz]

Gamebreaking.Details, please?

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy.