Monks as a prestige class

[Flasaro]

The title pretty much sums it up, should monk maybe be a prestige class instead of a base class? Monks train for years to be able to do what they and the base monk doesn't necessarily live up to what our fluff of monks says they may be able to. So I was thinking maybe make it a prestige class? I would do it myself and share that build with you all but I honestly don't know where to start. Suggestions?

[deuxhero]

You are 3 days early.

As for the topic itself, yes, though it would still have the problems of the Monk class (Fast movement+main form of offense requires standing still) unless fixed as part of it, though note that the only semi-viable Monk builds are alreddy multiclassing. Stacking Psionic Fist on top of baseclass!Monk abilitiies would actually be worth taking.

[NeoSeraphi]

This is a homebrewer's topic. You should post it in the Homebrew forum. Not only does it belong there, you'd get a lot more advice than you would on the 3.5 forum. Once you've put it up in the Homebrew section, I'll give you some pointers on how to get started. :smallsmile:

[Mystify]

What does making it a prestige class do for it that being a base class couldn't?

[CTrees]

Actually... by flavor, it kinda works ("kinda," because other classes, like wizards or artificers, likely also require years of study and devotion). Mechanically... a class with a bunch of bizarre little tricks and oddities, and somewhat of a variation on a normal mechanic? Yeah, that does sound prestige-y. Also it just never felt like it belonged with the other base classes, to me. My opinion may be colored by nostalgia for class systems like Final Fantasy Tactics, but... I could see it, and I could see it actually making a good monk. Keep the flurry mechanic, turn the UAS progession into bonus damage when unarmed, similar to sneak attack (but not precision), toss some of the crap abilities and condense the rest into half the levels... possibly even throw in a free pounce (hey, prestige class!). It could be fun, especially considering the different entries (make IUAS into a pre-req, natch).

Now, the execution is massively homebrew, yeah. Still, both for flavor and mechanics, I like the idea!

[Thurbane]

It would be interesting to see the Monk as a 15 level PrC like the Prestige Bard, Paladin & Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)...

[kulosle]

Making monk into a prestige class would make it take up less levels to give you all of it's... well, what WotC is trying to pass off as "goodies". The only problem with this is that monks already have prestige classes. How would this work in conjunction with those. What bass class would you take to go into it. Fighter or psion are the only ones I could think of. If it were a prestige class in would spell trouble for the enlightened fist. Because then you'd actually have to take all those cruddy feats to get into it and it wasn't worth it before. Maybe a 15 level prestige class like Thurbane suggested, but I still don't like the sound of it.

[Person_Man]

Simple enough. It is done:

Note: Edited to incorporate comments below. Many thanks!

Person_Man's Prestige Monk

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Jump 8 ranks.

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int bonus.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with their own Unarmed Strike, plus the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

{table=head]Level |BAB |Fort|Ref|Will|Special |Unarmed| Fast Move
1st | +1| +2 | +2 | +2 | Ki Strike (damage, magic), Fast Movement, AC Bonus| 1d8 | +10
2nd | +2| +3 | +3 | +3 | Purity of Body, Slow Fall (any distance), Bonus Feat | 1d8| +10
3rd | +3| +3 | +3 | +3 | Evasion | 1d10 | +20
4th | +4| +4 | +4 | +4 | Ki Strike (alignment, extra attack), Wholeness of Body | 1d10| +20
5th | +5| +4 | +4 | +4 | Diamond Body, Bonus Feat | 2d6 | +30
6th | +6| +5 | +5 | +5 | Abundant Step | 2d6 | +30
7th | +7| +5 | +5 | +5 | Ki Strike (adamantine, extra attack), Diamond Soul | 2d8| +40
8th | +8| +6 | +6 | +6 | Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Bonus Feat | 2d8 | +40
9th | +9| +6 | +6 | +6 | Quivering Palm, Perfect Self | 2d10 | +50
10th | +10| +7 | +7 | +7 | Empty Body | 2d10 | +60
[/table]

Class Abilities:

Ki Strike (Ex): As per the Monk's Improved Unarmed Strike ability (including bonus damage based on the chart above, counting as natural and manufactured, etc) and Ki Strike (magic) ability.

At 4th level, the Monk's Unarmed Strike are also treated as Lawful or Chaotic and Good or Evil, matching the alignment of the Monk. This bypasses certain types of damage reduction. For example, a Lawful Good Monk would have a Lawful Good Unarmed Strike (which bypasses the damage reduction of some magic or Chaotic and Evil enemies). If your alignment drifts into Neutral, you lose this ability for that alignment axis. For example, the Unarmed Strike of a Lawful Neutral Monk would only be Lawfully aligned. In addition, whenever they make a full attack action using only Unarmed Strike, natural weapons, and/or special Monk weapons, they gain one additional attack at their highest base attack bonus.

At 7th level, the Monk's Unarmed Strike also counts as adamantine, and whenever they make a full attack action using only Unarmed Strike, natural weapons, and/or special Monk weapons, they gain another additional attack at their highest base attack bonus.

These abilities only function while the Monk is unarmored and unencumbered.

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) plus his Monk class level to his AC. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

Evasion: You gain Evasion. If you already have or later gain Evasion from another source, you instead gain Improved Evasion.

Bonus Feats: Gained at 2nd, 5th, and 8th levels. Feel free to take any Monk-ish Feat you feel is appropriate from the standard Monk class or any of it's numerous variants, such as Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, etc.

Everything Else: As per the standard Monk abilities, except you should change any calculation (Stunning Fist uses per day, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul) from Monk level to twice your Monk level, and readjust Save DC's as needed per standard PrC rules (10 + Monk level + Wisdom Bonus).

[NeoSeraphi]

Simple enough. It is done:

Person_Man's Prestige Monk

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Tumble 8 ranks.


So you can't get in until 8th level? And what full BAB class has Tumble as a class skill? :smallconfused:

Stunning Fist is a harsh feat for non-monks in terms of prerequisites.

[Thurbane]

So you can't get in until 8th level? And what full BAB class has Tumble as a class skill? :smallconfused:

Stunning Fist is a harsh feat for non-monks in terms of prerequisites.
Warblade?

Any class can trade in Ride for Tumble, using the Cityscape web enhancement, as well as other various methods (Apprentice [Martial Artist]).

Using the Cityscape method, a Fighter 5 (or Fighter 2/Full BAB X 3) can get in with 8 skills ranks and two of his bonus feats (strictly speaking, you don't even need full BAB). Sure, he needs some WIS... Scratch that, I forgot about the whole BAB +8 req.

[NeoSeraphi]

Scratch that, I forgot about the whole BAB +8 req.

Yeah, I think Person_Man did too. :smallconfused: Even if he was intending for the Tumble to be CC, that would still require a straight fighter to be level 13 to get in, while a rogue would need to be level 11 to qualify for Stunning Fist, level 12 to get the actual feat slot for it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, the vast majority of other PrC begin at the same level, and I wanted to use a Skill pre-req (as opposed to BAB) in case someone wants to use a non-Full BAB entry. So you could always swap out Tumble for any other Monk-ish Skill you feel comfortable with.

I also required Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist because I consider them core Monk abilities, and I didn't want to front load the PrC with too much stuff. But if you feel that the pre-reqs are too onerous or that the PrC is too Tier 4ish for you, then just remove the pre-reqs you don't like and add Bonus Feats as needed (maybe levels 2, 5, and 8).

I believe you have forgotten the +8 BAB prerequisite of the Stunning Fist feat. No class could take this at 5th level.

[Person_Man]

I believe you have forgotten the +8 BAB prerequisite of the Stunning Fist feat. No class could take this at 5th level.

Doh!

OK, I reworked the pre-reqs. Thanks for the catch.

[hobo386]

Simple enough. It is done:

Person_Man's Prestige Monk

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Jump 8 ranks. Edited from original. Thanks for the comments below.

Class Skills and Skills per level: Same as Monk.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All special Monk weapons.

{table=head]Level |BAB |Fort|Ref|Will|Special |Unarmed| Fast Move
1st | +1| +2 | +2 | +2 | Ki Strike (damage, magic), Fast Movement, AC Bonus| 1d8 | +10
2nd | +2| +3 | +3 | +3 | Purity of Body, Slow Fall (any distance), Bonus Feat | 1d8| +10
3rd | +3| +3 | +3 | +3 | Evasion | 1d10 | +20
4th | +4| +4 | +4 | +4 | Ki Strike (lawful, extra attack), Wholeness of Body | 1d10| +20
5th | +5| +4 | +4 | +4 | Diamond Body, Bonus Feat | 2d6 | +30
6th | +6| +5 | +5 | +5 | Abundant Step | 2d6 | +30
7th | +7| +5 | +5 | +5 | Ki Strike (adamantine, extra attack), Diamond Soul | 2d8| +40
8th | +8| +6 | +6 | +6 | Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Bonus Feat | 2d8 | +40
9th | +9| +6 | +6 | +6 | Quivering Palm, Perfect Self | 2d10 | +50
10th | +10| +7 | +7 | +7 | Empty Body | 2d10 | +60
[/table]

Class Abilities:

Ki Strike (Ex): As per the Monk's Improved Unarmed Strike ability (including bonus damage, counting as natural and manufactured, etc) and Ki Strike (magic) ability. At 4th level, the Monk's Unarmed Strike also counts as lawful, and whenever they make a full attack action using only Unarmed Strike or special Monk weapons, they gain one additional attack at their highest base attack bonus. At 7th level, the Monk's Unarmed Strike also counts as adamantine, and whenever they make a full attack action using only Unarmed Strike or special Monk weapons, they gain another additional attack at their highest base attack bonus. These abilities only function while the Monk is unarmored and unencumbered.

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) plus his Monk class level to his AC. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

Evasion: You gain Evasion. If you already have or later gain Evasion from another source, you instead gain Improved Evasion.

Bonus Feats: Gained at 2nd, 5th, and 8th levels. Feel free to take any Monk-ish Feat you feel is appropriate from the standard Monk or any of it's numerous variants.

Everything Else: As per the standard Monk abilities, except you should change any calculation (Stunning Fist, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul) from Monk level to twice your Monk level, and readjust Save DC's as needed per standard PrC rules.

This class would be great for dipping. I could see myself doing Rogue16/Pr Monk4, for all the little bonuses. (as well as the full BAB/good save progression, without giving up too many skills) Also, free improved evasion.

[Drelua]

Person_Man, Great work as usual, I'm gonna ask my DM if I can use that for our next campaign. A couple things though; I'm assuming you meant to give them stunning fist because of the 'everything else' entry, but you didn't put that in anywhere. At what level would you give it to them? The obvious answer would be level 1, but they already get a lot of stuff there, so maybe level 3?

I'd also drop Tongue of the Sun and Moon, but that's just because I hate the idea of someone being in such control of their own body that it transcends mortal limits, allowing them to have a conversation with a squirrel. It would be a good way to annoy a druid when you can talk to his animal companion but he has waste a spell to do it, at least. One last thing; what if Slow Fall worked even when you couldn't reach a wall of some kind? That way it's as good as a ring that costs 2,200 gold, instead of being an inferior version of it.

[Captain Six]

Pretty nice prestige class I'll have to use it for my games. I'll probably give it a d10 for HP/level, I noticed you didn't specify what they got yourself.

[OracleofWuffing]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All special Monk weapons.
I know that, with this being a prestige class, there's a 95% chance that they have it anyways from their previous class, but just for clarity's sake and to save us some trouble down the road, let's explicitly give them unarmed strike proficiency.:smallwink:

[Chronos]

Personally, I just can't see a monk as a prestige class. It's not like an already-experienced warrior shows up at a monastery to settle down and spend years in meditation: A monk is someone who starts off, right off the bat, intending to be a monk and studying for that. Yeah, yeah, you can have folks who feel the call later in life (i.e., multiclassed from something else), but that's the exception, not the rule.