[3.5]Fighter skill fix

[Thurbane]

Aside from other issues the Fighter might have (real or imagined), one of my pet beefs is their skills. I'm proposing to use the following fix in any games I run:


Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering/history/local/nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (weapon drill) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

..........

Here is some of my reasoning behind the skills added (also, since the Fighter isn't that flashy anyway, I thought I'd boost skills from 2 to 4 per level, to take advantage of some of the new skills):

Appraise (determine the worth of loot, and evaluate arms & armor)
Balance (no brainer)
Bluff (for Feint checks, among other things)
Gather Information (Heroes of Battle, p.94 - provide a strategic advantage for your force)
Knowledge [architecture & engineering] (as per the SRD, includes fortifications)
Knowledge [history] (as per SRD, includes wars)
Knowledge [local] (Complete Warrior, p.122 - identify a military unit by heraldry)
Knowledge [nobility & royalty] (as per SRD, includes heraldry)
Listen (no brainer)
Perform [weapon drill] (Complete Warrior, p.121)
Profession [siege engineer] (Heroes of Battle, p.95)
Sense Motive (opposing Feint checks, among other things)
Spot (no brainer)
Tumble (no brainer)

It also gives Fighter's with decent secondary skills something to focus on: A Fighter with decent Int can boost Appraise and Knowledge; one with Decent Wis can pump up Listen, Spot and Sense Motive; and one with good Cha can Bluff and Gather Information, as well as Intimidate and Handle Animal.

...so, thoughts, feedback?

Cheers - T

Removed the (siege engineer) qualifier from profession.

[AugustNights]

Not much of a suggestion, but why limit profession at all?
I, personally, never liked that Fighters didn't get profession in general.

[Thurbane]

Not much of a suggestion, but why limit profession at all?
I, personally, never liked that Fighters didn't get profession in general.
Interesting - I did actually consider that...let me think about it. :smallsmile:

[Mulletmanalive]

If not all professions, you at least need Charioteer, Sailor and Teamster to be able to drive everything that warriors tend to be associated with in various cultures.

[Veklim]

Should be any profession imo too. Also, perform shouldn't really be limited, plenty of warrior poets out there (especially within Nordic traditions, but not exclusively so), as well as military bands and the like.
This is pretty much what I've done with fighters for a long time anyhow, they're meant to be highly skilled warriors after all, and yet they have the least skills of any base class, and less reason than many others with 2+int/lvl to pump up their intelligence much (excluding specific build types).

[Grod_The_Giant]

I would go even farther and kick it up to 6+Int modifier skill points-- fighters are supposed to be smart warriors, after all, and at the moment they have no reason to pump their intelligence. I'll second the motion for Profession (any), as every class with the skill (ie, everything but Fighter and Barbarian) just list it as Profession.

(For reference, my fighter fix has 6+Int skills per level, and the following list: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope.)

[Wyntonian]

I'm with everyone else about un-limiting the perform and profession options. Why can't my fighter be a sailor who plays the guitar? We may never know.

[Draz74]

Eh, as usual when people discuss adding class skills to the Fighter, the real underlying issue turns out to be "cross-class skills suck more than they should." Yes, you should be able to make a Fighter who doesn't suck at playing the guitar. No, Perform (stringed instruments) should not be a Fighter class skill -- there is no special synergy between the Fighter and playing the guitar, which is what class skills are supposed to represent.

So the real way to fix most of these skills is just to adopt a fix where cross-classing doesn't suck. Pathfinder is pretty good with this.

IMO, Spot and Listen are actually in the same boat. This is seldom a popular opinion, but ... Fighters aren't supposed to be expert scouts. Lots of Fighters on sentry duty would have decent cross-classed Spot and Listen, but they shouldn't be as good as a same-level Ranger who focuses on his scouting abilities.

All that said, I DO agree with adding Balance, Know(engineering), and Perform(weapon drill) to the class skill list. And I could possibly be persuaded on the Know(history), Profession(sapper), and other Professions.

[Hiro Protagonest]

IMO, Spot and Listen are actually in the same boat. This is seldom a popular opinion, but ... Fighters aren't supposed to be expert scouts. Lots of Fighters on sentry duty would have decent cross-classed Spot and Listen, but they shouldn't be as good as a same-level Ranger who focuses on his scouting abilities.

A level 1 fighter should be as good a guard as a level 1 expert with hide and move silently is at sneaking past guards.

[Thurbane]

IMO, Spot and Listen are actually in the same boat. This is seldom a popular opinion, but ... Fighters aren't supposed to be expert scouts. Lots of Fighters on sentry duty would have decent cross-classed Spot and Listen, but they shouldn't be as good as a same-level Ranger who focuses on his scouting abilities.
I'm of the belief that a professional warrior should have a decent chance of noticing enemies trying to ambush him. To me, these are fairly basic warrior/mercenary skills.

Also, even the lowly Commoner gets Listen & Spot! :smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

Also, even the lowly Commoner gets Listen & Spot! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, well, it shouldn't! :smallwink:

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, well, it shouldn't! :smallwink:

To throw my two cents into this little tangent, perhaps rangers could be expected to gain their advantage over fighters by having higher Wis synergy, and therefore a few points from ability mod. However, PF's system does seem more sensible than 3.5's, in any case.

[sonofzeal]

Appraise - Makes sense for some, but most things Appraise would get used for aren't really appropriate. Mildly disagree.
Balance - Agree.
Bluff (for Feint checks, among other things) - Disagree. While it has martial application, the prime use is social, and not really something that fits the Fighter ethos. Leave it to Swashbucklers and Rogues.
Gather Information (Heroes of Battle, p.94 - provide a strategic advantage for your force) - Mildly agree. Still a little out of place, but better than Bluff.
Knowledge [architecture & engineering] (as per the SRD, includes fortifications) - Agree. I've added this in homebrew fighter fixes myself.
Knowledge [history] (as per SRD, includes wars) - Disagree. Just because something could occasionally be tangentially relevant doesn't make it worthy of being a specific class skill.
Knowledge [local] (Complete Warrior, p.122 - identify a military unit by heraldry) - Disagree. The next one's for that.
Knowledge [nobility & royalty] (as per SRD, includes heraldry) - agree.
Listen (no brainer) - Agree.
Perform [weapon drill] (Complete Warrior, p.121) - Agree.
Profession [siege engineer] (Heroes of Battle, p.95) - Profession in general should be open to Fighters. It's the sort of class that lends itself well to a day job, since the actual class abilities don't lend themselves to off-duty work.
Sense Motive (opposing Feint checks, among other things) - mildly agree. City guards need to be able to catch fast-talkers.
Spot (no brainer) - agree
Tumble (no brainer) - agree

I'd also recommend Disable Device. I picture Fighters as being good with mundane tools and devices, and adding this skill would complement Craft in being able to work with mechanical contraptions. I see the Fighter as like that guy you know with seven different power tools and a magnetic reversable ratchet set.

[Ashtagon]

I'd also recommend Disable Device. I picture Fighters as being good with mundane tools and devices, and adding this skill would complement Craft in being able to work with mechanical contraptions. I see the Fighter as like that guy you know with seven different power tools and a magnetic reversable ratchet set.

That guy with seven power tools and a magnetic reversable ratchet set? He would have been an artificier in another life. It's the gym bunnies who would have been fighters in another life.

[Deepbluediver]

When I made a fighter fix, I basically just added spot and search (but not listen) to the fighter skill set to deal with the "guards can't find the damn rogue" issue, and then added this as a class feature at level 1:

Adaptability
Fighters are a varied and adaptable lot, with an unusual and sometimes unexpected set of skills.
Pick any one skill (Knowledge and Perform skill selected individually) and add that skill to your list of class skills. You immediately gain ranks in it equal to your ECL+3. Afterwards, you must spend skill points to continue to improve this ability, as normal.

You may add an additional skill and immediately gain ranks in it at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20.


That way you don't have to say fighters as a class are better at any particular skill, but if you want to make a warrior-poet or Bob the Iron Swordschef you can.

[Dienekes]

Bluff (for Feint checks, among other things) - Disagree. While it has martial application, the prime use is social, and not really something that fits the Fighter ethos. Leave it to Swashbucklers and Rogues.

I think the biggest problem is that Feint is tied to the Bluff skill. Feinting is really a rather standard and useful thing to do and it just makes sense that Fighters should be able to do it. But the skill at large has no purpose on a Fighter, and I would argue the ability to tell a lie really isn't all that tied to making a feint in combat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think the biggest problem is that Feint is tied to the Bluff skill. Feinting is really a rather standard and useful thing to do and it just makes sense that Fighters should be able to do it. But the skill at large has no purpose on a Fighter, and I would argue the ability to tell a lie really isn't all that tied to making a feint in combat.

A better solution would be a class ability that lets them use, say, their Intelligence modifier to feint.

[Ashtagon]

I think the biggest problem is that Feint is tied to the Bluff skill. Feinting is really a rather standard and useful thing to do and it just makes sense that Fighters should be able to do it. But the skill at large has no purpose on a Fighter, and I would argue the ability to tell a lie really isn't all that tied to making a feint in combat.

Actually, feinting in combat isn't all that useful for a fighter. The key benefit of a feint is removing the Dex bonus of the target, which synergises with sneak attack, and synergises with basically nothing the fighter has. I'm cool with not letting fighters have Bluff, because they don't fit the trope for bluffers outside combat, and they don't really synergise/benefit from the skill for feinting in combat.

[sonofzeal]

That guy with seven power tools and a magnetic reversable ratchet set? He would have been an artificier in another life. It's the gym bunnies who would have been fighters in another life.
Naw, the Artificer's the guy who invested in a 3D Printer, or whose day job involves designing circuitboards or somesuch. The Fighter's more about power tools and basic home repair, it's part of machismo culture to be able to fix stuff. Every "gym bunny" I've been friends with has loved power tools and being able to fix stuff around the house.

[Thurbane]

Actually, feinting in combat isn't all that useful for a fighter. The key benefit of a feint is removing the Dex bonus of the target, which synergises with sneak attack, and synergises with basically nothing the fighter has. I'm cool with not letting fighters have Bluff, because they don't fit the trope for bluffers outside combat, and they don't really synergise/benefit from the skill for feinting in combat.
But...Improved Feint is a Fighter bonus feat? :smalleek:

[Dienekes]

Actually, feinting in combat isn't all that useful for a fighter. The key benefit of a feint is removing the Dex bonus of the target, which synergises with sneak attack, and synergises with basically nothing the fighter has. I'm cool with not letting fighters have Bluff, because they don't fit the trope for bluffers outside combat, and they don't really synergise/benefit from the skill for feinting in combat.

I was sort of referring to feinting in actual combat, where it is very useful to know how to do. In actual mechanics of DnD yeah it's much more useful for a rogue. Personally, the simplistic solution to get rid of the mentality that feinting is something that fighter types should be doing is just renaming it "distraction" or something other than an actual combat technique trained fencers actually did.

[Ashtagon]

But...Improved Feint is a Fighter bonus feat? :smalleek:

So? Toughness is a feat. They intentionally made some of the feats as "traps" for novice players to fall into. The rules were written with the intention that system mastery would lead to more powerful character design choices.


I was sort of referring to feinting in actual combat, where it is very useful to know how to do. In actual mechanics of DnD yeah it's much more useful for a rogue. Personally, the simplistic solution to get rid of the mentality that feinting is something that fighter types should be doing is just renaming it "distraction" or something other than an actual combat technique trained fencers actually did.

Yeah, feinting in combat as a general move happens all the time ever second. The D&D feint manoeuvre is basically a combat round in which you spend most of your effort on distraction rather than on attacking.

Calling it "distract" makes the rules feel flavourless to me though. I'd far rather they had made a "behind the curtain" style box to explain that a feint in game terms doesn't reflect exactly the same thing as a feint in RL terms.

(and don't get me started on 'composite' bows)

[Thurbane]

So? Toughness is a feat. They intentionally made some of the feats as "traps" for novice players to fall into. The rules were written with the intention that system mastery would lead to more powerful character design choices.
Of course...it does not change the fact that it is specifically designated as a Fighter bonus feat, though. I would add the skill to give the Fighter the option to Feint if he chooses to do so...maybe he's got sneak attack or similar from another source, or maybe he's just fighting a tough creature that has a really high Dex mod. All I want to do is have the option there, not necessarily force players to take it.

[Ashtagon]

Of course...it does not change the fact that it is specifically designated as a Fighter bonus feat, though. I would add the skill to give the Fighter the option to Feint if he chooses to do so...maybe he's got sneak attack or similar from another source, or maybe he's just fighting a tough creature that has a really high Dex mod. All I want to do is have the option there, not necessarily force players to take it.

It's specifically designed as a trap for fighters. Basically, you give up half your attack opportunities for a chance of cutting out the Dex bonus. Without the feat, it's a standard action. With the feat, it's a move action, so you're still cutting off your iterative attack option.

[Veklim]

When I made a fighter fix, I basically just added spot and search (but not listen) to the fighter skill set to deal with the "guards can't find the damn rogue" issue, and then added this as a class feature at level 1:

Adaptability
Fighters are a varied and adaptable lot, with an unusual and sometimes unexpected set of skills.
Pick any one skill (Knowledge and Perform skill selected individually) and add that skill to your list of class skills. You immediately gain ranks in it equal to your ECL+3. Afterwards, you must spend skill points to continue to improve this ability, as normal.

You may add an additional skill and immediately gain ranks in it at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20.


That way you don't have to say fighters as a class are better at any particular skill, but if you want to make a warrior-poet or Bob the Iron Swordschef you can.

This fixes my personal bugbears with fighters almost completely. Would be tempted to spread them out over the odd levels though, fighter's look so empty and destitute on the table...poor BDFs :smalltongue:

Maybe throw in a couple of skill tricks for free at other empty levels, they'd give the fighter a smidgen of utility, especially if they chose well with their Adaptability.

[Deepbluediver]

This fixes my personal bugbears with fighters almost completely. Would be tempted to spread them out over the odd levels though, fighter's look so empty and destitute on the table...poor BDFs :smalltongue:

Maybe throw in a couple of skill tricks for free at other empty levels, they'd give the fighter a smidgen of utility, especially if they chose well with their Adaptability.
You should go read the full fix; this is only one small change out of the whole thing. :smallamused:

[Clawhound]

Diplomacy

People like Knights and Generals run governments.

[Deepbluediver]

Diplomacy

People like Knights and Generals run governments.
I can't tell whether you are being serious or sarcastic (if you think this is a good/bad idea) so I'll just leave this here:
List of United States Presidents by military rank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidents_by_military_rank)
(tl;dr- there's 31 names on that list)

[erikun]

I decided to do this myself, and ended up with the following list.

Appraise, Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Local, Profession, Ride, Search, Swim, Use Rope, plus any two

Search and Knowledge: Local are something I think everyone should have, as I see no reason why looking carefully or learning about local events should be difficult for anyone. Appraise, Geography, and Use Rope are general adventuring skills and would fit well on a general adventuring class.

The plus any two works the same as with the Expert and Human Paragon; you choose any two skills at first level, and they become class skills. Given how the fighter is supposed to be a generalist from various backgrounds, I thought this worked well at allowing the player to personalize the class. Want a more diplomatic fighter? Grab Diplomancy and Sense Motive. More of a night guard? Perhaps Spot and Listen.

A lot of the skills you included (Gather Information, Knowledge [architecture & engineering]) are only vaguely related to anything a fighter does or trains for. Sure, a fighter could bluff someone for CA once, but that doesn't make lying a common part of fighter training! (That would be more the Thug, a variant rogue, anyways.) I agree that Perform [weapon drill] is appropriate, but not too sure about the others. Why, for instance, is spotting so very important but listening doesn't matter?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why, for instance, is spotting so very important but listening doesn't matter?

He put listen on the list. :smallconfused:

[Clawhound]

I can't tell whether you are being serious or sarcastic (if you think this is a good/bad idea) so I'll just leave this here:
List of United States Presidents by military rank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidents_by_military_rank)
(tl;dr- there's 31 names on that list)

I'm serious. Well, I said what I meant. Serious is another matter. :smallbiggrin:

In stories, the fighting types wind up being King a lot. Same with history. The Romans sure loved their generals (as longs as they won). That wasn't true of all stories and all history, but enough so that Diplomacy makes sense as an option.

[Thurbane]

It's specifically designed as a trap for fighters. Basically, you give up half your attack opportunities for a chance of cutting out the Dex bonus. Without the feat, it's a standard action. With the feat, it's a move action, so you're still cutting off your iterative attack option.
I get where you're coming from, but IMHO it's better to have a skill there as an option than not to have it. Use Rope is generally regarded as a pretty useless skill, but it still appears on the list of several classes. Climb becomes redundant about the same time the party has easy access to Spider Climb, or Fly...

[Ashtagon]

I get where you're coming from, but IMHO it's better to have a skill there as an option than not to have it. Use Rope is generally regarded as a pretty useless skill, but it still appears on the list of several classes. Climb becomes redundant about the same time the party has easy access to Spider Climb, or Fly...

That doesn't really disprove my point. There are levels of game-play, and even styles of play (low magic) where it makes sense to invest in Climb. There is no situation (except intentionally self-nerfing or class dipping) where it makes sense to pick that feat as a fighter.

[Ashtagon]

I get where you're coming from, but IMHO it's better to have a skill there as an option than not to have it. Use Rope is generally regarded as a pretty useless skill, but it still appears on the list of several classes. Climb becomes redundant about the same time the party has easy access to Spider Climb, or Fly...

That doesn't really disprove my point. There are levels of game-play, and even styles of play (low magic) where it makes sense to invest in Climb. There is no situation (except intentionally self-nerfing or class dipping) where it makes sense to pick that feat as a fighter.

[Thurbane]

That doesn't really disprove my point. There are levels of game-play, and even styles of play (low magic) where it makes sense to invest in Climb. There is no situation (except intentionally self-nerfing or class dipping) where it makes sense to pick that feat as a fighter.
There's plenty of uses for Bluff besides Feinting - just because I used that as a justification for adding it as a skill, doesn't mean that A). Anyone has to put ranks in it and B). if they do, that they need to take the Improved Feint feat.

Anyway, I'm leaving Bluff on the list, but thanks for the feedback.

[Ashtagon]

There's plenty of uses for Bluff besides Feinting - just because I used that as a justification for adding it as a skill, doesn't mean that A). Anyone has to put ranks in it and B). if they do, that they need to take the Improved Feint feat.

Anyway, I'm leaving Bluff on the list, but thanks for the feedback.

I was talking about Improved feint, not Bluff.

[paddyfool]

The plus any two works the same as with the Expert and Human Paragon; you choose any two skills at first level, and they become class skills. Given how the fighter is supposed to be a generalist from various backgrounds, I thought this worked well at allowing the player to personalize the class. Want a more diplomatic fighter? Grab Diplomancy and Sense Motive. More of a night guard? Perhaps Spot and Listen.


This. On top of the skills that everyone agrees fighters in general should have, each individual player is likely to want their fighter to have something a little different.

Of course, each individual rogue, wizard, etc. player might want such goodies too. One way to do this might be to go a couple of steps further and pinch a little mechanic from the Mastercraft system called the Origin skill: put simply, each new character gets one or two skills which are always in class for them, regardless of their class. If you're worried about certain skills being abused (e.g. UMD), you can always prohibit those particular selections (although in certain settings, such as Eberron, prohibiting UMD would seem a little unfair for a character of any class).

The only class which would lose out relatively speaking if you did that would be the Factotum... but you could probably work out some additional goodie or other to give them to maintain their "ultimate skillmonkey" status (extra skill points being the most obvious).

[Thurbane]

I was talking about Improved feint, not Bluff.
Yes, I do realise that. But since my fix has nothing to directly do with feats, I thought it was worth mentioning... :smallconfused: