[3.5] Control Winds to make a Tornado?

[DwarfFighter]

Dear Internet Community.

Last session the PCs were ambushed by a group of monsters and were forced to retreat. They returned to the battle-site better prepared and the cleric player decided to "bring out the big guns". It is understandable he wanted some pay-back since his character was slain (he got raised) in the initial ambush.

When he cast Control Weather to set the wind strength to a very specific level I asked him what he was planning. "Never tell the GM what you're planning!" was his response. Did I mention we're a less oriented towards "storytelling" and more towards "player vs. GM". I didn't?

As they return to the monster's lair he casts Control Winds and readis his action for when the monsters appear. They do and he immediatly uses his action to call down a frickin' TORNADO on them. He then suggests I read up on the weather rules.

As he sees it, he has now created a very localized tornado in the area of effect. Now, this comes with a host of strategic benefits: The affected monsters will need to take a DC 30 Fortitude save, or be sucked into the funnel and be expelled at the apex 480 ft. up, hopefully suffering some falling damage (1d6 per 10 ft., 20d6 max).

Now, he kinda got me surprised there, so I did some quick checking of the spell description to see if this was all on the level. After all, Control Winds is a Clr 5 spell (DC 15 + cleric's Wisdom bonus), so for this to force a DC 30 save would be the equivalent of the cleric having a Wisdom score of 40! The words "game balance" and "shot to hell" crossed my mind.

I didn't go for an in-depth analysis (too much heat of the moment with the encounter already kicked off), but I pointed out that the spell effect was limited to 40 ft. in height. So I allowed it to play out as if the monsters were caught in a very wide (the cleric had the area of effect expanded in later rounds) tornado and made Fortitude saves for them and they were caught up for multiple rounds doing nothing but taking the required 6d6 points of damage.

Now that a few days have passed and I've got the time to analyze the situation. Correct me if I am wrong, but the spell does not in fact create a Tornado weather pattern that can be controlled with surgical precision by the cleric AT WILL. After all, Control Weather (cleric spell level 7) does not even come close to this kind of precision. Instead the spell creates directional wind within the affected volume with the primary effects being Blown Away, Knocked over and Checked (depending on the creature's size).

Additionally, there is the matter of the saving throw. The spell description indicates that creatures in the area must make a Fortitude save ach round or be affected. Should the DC for that save be the spell save (i.e. DC 15 + cleric's Wisdom modifier) or the wind strength save (e.g. DC 30 for a tornado-strength wind)?

Best regards
DwarfFighter

[candycorn]

General consensus is that if a save is required for the spell, the save is per the spell rules, not the weather rules.

Control winds can create a variety of effects. When you use hurricane level, you get the wind effect only. However, the spell is pretty explicit on the highest level.


A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.

At the tornado level, it can be an actual tornado. Granted, it's only 40 feet high, and won't move, but it's still a tornado.

[motoko's ghost]

I once used that on an enemy fort:smallbiggrin:, I'm not allowed it anymore but it was worth it!

[HunterOfJello]

The spell definitely functions in the way that the player wanted it to for the most part.


The ambiguous parts of the spell when used for this precise function are twofold:

1. A rate of movement and the precision of control at moving the affect are not described.

2. The spell says that,


Instead of being blown away (see Table 3–24: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado.

"Close proximity" is not defined in the description and since there are two separate affects occurring, differentiating between which people are blown away and which people get sucked into a death vortex is an important standard to figure out.


~~~~

Since the exact methods of controlling the center of the spell are undefined and the spell is obviously not meant to be the equivalent of a Whirlwind spell (otherwise it would be the generally inappropriately titled Whirlwind spell), it is up to you as a DM to decide how precise or imprecise the control method would be.

It is also up to the DM to determine the concentration checks involved in controlling the spell. *nudge nudge wink wink say no more!* It is definitely important to remember that concentration checks can become quite high depending on the situation. The PHB describes the concentration check for being effected by a spell:


If the spell interferes with you or distracts you in some other way, the DC is the spell’s saving throw DC + the level of the spell you’re casting.

Now you can decide if you'd like to use that DC 30 or not.

~~~~

The Close Proximity part would be best decided with google, but that's boring and takes too much time for any real game to go in to. Control Winds allow a 40 ft./level radius cylinder that is 40 ft. high. Since a PC can decrease their spell level down to the lowest level available to cast the spell, the spell requires a minimum of CL 9. The chosen caster level is also relevant for, "all level-dependent features". So, to get it up to a torando level, a caster level of 15 is necessary.

The spell says that you can limit the area to less than your full limit if you like, so making a tornado-ish shape is fine. (Although an awesome player like myself would choose the 600ft radius tornado.)

Anyway, the proximity will have to be determined carefully since a small tornado will not be pulling much in since it is only 40ft tall.


~~~~

Overall, it's a DM call for lots of this stuff and if you hate it that much, ban it. You really shouldn't be playing DM vs. Players in the first place. That's what my current game has started turning into and that's why I'll likely be quitting as DM soon.

[Ashtagon]

For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level.

Unless the weather without magic was already at least a "severe wind", he could not have made a tornado strength wind (assuming CL 9-11). He'd have to be at least CL 18 to make a tornado from still air.

Supposing it was already severe, that means Medium enemies would have been "checked". If they were being played intelligently, they'd get into cover at that point.

[DwarfFighter]

Thank you for your replies.


At the tornado level, it can be an actual tornado. Granted, it's only 40 feet high, and won't move, but it's still a tornado.

I don't quite buy this: Clearly the wind strength can be the that of a tornado, but none of the allowed wind directions allow for an actual funnel.

Notice that the "precision" of the effect derives from the fact that for the duration of the spell the cleric can use a standard action to select a different volume to be affected: The windy volume does not sweep across the the battle-field; it simply dissipates and a new effect manifests in another area.

motoko's ghost: Presumably you were told not to do so because it had no effect? A "fort" sounds like it would qualify as a "fortified structure".

HunterOfJello: The spell doesn't say "Instead of being blown away (see Table 3–24: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado." That's a quote from the Weather rules.

-DF

[motoko's ghost]

motoko's ghost: Presumably you were told not to do so because it had no effect? A "fort" sounds like it would qualify as a "fortified structure".

-DF

Fort was probably an exaggeration it was mostly a mercenary camp, surrounded by a palisade, there was a sort-of fort thing in the middle that survived relatively intact but it did make clearing out the enemy army in there easier.

EDIT: I was told not to do it again because it was kinda ridiculous, it was pretty funny from an in-game viewpoint, the rogue-ish guy and wizard were discussing how to bypass/stop the mooks when my character just went "I might have an idea to thin them slighly" then proceed to blow most of them away, "there, now they wont see you sneak past them...or anything else for that matter":smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

Thank you for your replies.



I don't quite buy this: Clearly the wind strength can be the that of a tornado, but none of the allowed wind directions allow for an actual funnel.

Notice that the "precision" of the effect derives from the fact that for the duration of the spell the cleric can use a standard action to select a different volume to be affected: The windy volume does not sweep across the the battle-field; it simply dissipates and a new effect manifests in another area.

motoko's ghost: Presumably you were told not to do so because it had no effect? A "fort" sounds like it would qualify as a "fortified structure".

HunterOfJello: The spell doesn't say "Instead of being blown away (see Table 3–24: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado." That's a quote from the Weather rules.

-DF

Yes, it really is quite powerful. You should see it in naval combat...

Note that it does not say "tornado force winds". It says "A tornado". It's true that lesser effects only create winds of a given strength, but the highest level explicitly creates a tornado. One limited to the spells area of effect, yes, but a tornado nonetheless.

This means that this area is in fact subject to the weather rules of a tornado.

[Ashtagon]

As he sees it, he has now created a very localized tornado in the area of effect. Now, this comes with a host of strategic benefits: The affected monsters will need to take a DC 30 Fortitude save, or be sucked into the funnel and be expelled at the apex 480 ft. up, hopefully suffering some falling damage (1d6 per 10 ft., 20d6 max).

Actually, a few more points...

* Nothing about tornadoes says anything about the apex being 480 ft up, and even if it did, the spell itself is limited to 40 ft up.
* The DC 30 check is to avoid being blown away / knocked down / checked. It only offers the "sucked into tornado" risk if you touch the funnel.
* There's no specific rule on how big the actual funnel is. Natural tornadoes have clouds around 500 ft wide at the top, and not necessarily reaching ground level at all. Damage paths have varied in width from 7 feet to a mile. There's no reason to suppose that the funnel for this tornado should be more than a single 5-foot space. All characters not in that space or reaching into it would merely suffer the high wind effects of tornado strength winds.

None of the above changes the fact that he'd need to be caster level 18 to turn a dead calm to a tornado.

[DwarfFighter]

Yes, it really is quite powerful. You should see it in naval combat...

Note that it does not say "tornado force winds". It says "A tornado". It's true that lesser effects only create winds of a given strength, but the highest level explicitly creates a tornado. One limited to the spells area of effect, yes, but a tornado nonetheless.

This means that this area is in fact subject to the weather rules of a tornado.

Yes, it says "a tornado" in the context of wind strenght. I'm not going to read more into it than that.

After all, the spell does allows the selection of four distinct wind directions, none of which properly describe a tornado. Possibly the updraft is the closest option, but certainly the rotation, downdraft and directional blast options do not conform to a tornado. There are no exceptions to the shape of the effect or the direction of the wind given with the tornado strength.

There is also the issue of the spell clearly indicating that the affected creatures are entitled to a save each round to avoid the effects of the wind, while a proper tornado permits a single save or the creature is swept along for 1d10 rounds. Clearly a compatibility issue that the spell should have dealt with.

And exactly where would this funnel be? What size is it? How would it interact with the optional "eye of the storm" the cleric can create? How far is "in proximity" to the funnel? Plenty of unanswered questions there.

I thank you for your opinions, but you have yet to convince me. The simplest assumption: that we are dealing with very strong winds within the limited volume requires fits with the described effects and requires no special exceptions or additional explanations. So I guess I'm sticking with that. Maybe I have even convinced some of you.

I am not sure what justification is used for applying the tornado weather pattern effect, but sticking with the spell save DC. Seems to me like an attempt at mitigating a broken interpretation in that you realize that the full DC 30 is just too good.

Considering that this is merely a Cleric 5 spell, I'm going to err on the side of game balance and go for the spell save DC rather than the wind strength save DC. This will effectively bump up the effect of the lower-strength wind categories, depending on the cleric's spellcasting abolities, which I am sure he will appreciate since it makes the spell useful in more situations.

Thank you,
DF

[Pilo]

Well regarding the DC, it is related to the winds, not to the spell so i think it is reasonnable to use the weather DC and not the standard spell DC.

[ShriekingDrake]

Unless the weather without magic was already at least a "severe wind", he could not have made a tornado strength wind (assuming CL 9-11). He'd have to be at least CL 18 to make a tornado from still air.

Supposing it was already severe, that means Medium enemies would have been "checked". If they were being played intelligently, they'd get into cover at that point.

Just don't for get this (above) in the future.

[gomipile]

Just don't for get this (above) in the future.

I thought the character used two castings of Control Winds in sequence? I could be wrong?

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, it says "a tornado" in the context of wind strenght. I'm not going to read more into it than that.

No, it doesn't. Each other level explicitly says that a wind of strength x is created. This level says a tornado is created. It then gives you the wind strength as an idea of the power, but it explicitly does create a tornado by RAW.


After all, the spell does allows the selection of four distinct wind directions, none of which properly describe a tornado. Possibly the updraft is the closest option, but certainly the rotation, downdraft and directional blast options do not conform to a tornado. There are no exceptions to the shape of the effect or the direction of the wind given with the tornado strength.

The area is that of a cylinder, and a rotational wind is remarkably like that of a tornado. The ability to create an eye in the center of the storm is, again, remarkably tornado-like.


Actually, a few more points...

* Nothing about tornadoes says anything about the apex being 480 ft up, and even if it did, the spell itself is limited to 40 ft up.

This is correct. I don't see 480 feet listed anywhere. The tornado fills the listed area of effect, and that is all the area it fills.


* The DC 30 check is to avoid being blown away / knocked down / checked. It only offers the "sucked into tornado" risk if you touch the funnel.
* There's no specific rule on how big the actual funnel is. Natural tornadoes have clouds around 500 ft wide at the top, and not necessarily reaching ground level at all. Damage paths have varied in width from 7 feet to a mile. There's no reason to suppose that the funnel for this tornado should be more than a single 5-foot space. All characters not in that space or reaching into it would merely suffer the high wind effects of tornado strength winds.

This is not a natural tornado, so none of that applies. That said, funnels can exceed a mile in width.

In this case, the effect is clear. It is defined by the spells area of effect, a cylinder. It does not go far into the air, it only goes as high as the area of the spell.


There is also the issue of the spell clearly indicating that the affected creatures are entitled to a save each round to avoid the effects of the wind, while a proper tornado permits a single save or the creature is swept along for 1d10 rounds. Clearly a compatibility issue that the spell should have dealt with.

Specific overrides general. Thus, while the general rules of a tornado are save once, the spell that specifically overrides the save information takes priority. Thus, by RAW, it's save every round you are within the area. Still quite powerful.

In all ways that are not specified, the general tornado rules take priority.


None of the above changes the fact that he'd need to be caster level 18 to turn a dead calm to a tornado.

True. However, existing winds can modify that. Im not sure of the situation, but cl rules still apply. It's easy to fix by just casting twice, though.

[Manateee]

If the spell says it makes a tornado, and you maintain that the spell doesn't say it makes a tornado, I don't know what you expect to hear.

No, it's not fair.
It's 3e - what did you expect?

[Chronos]

Incidentally, Control Winds isn't on the cleric list, unless he has the Air domain. It's normally a druid spell.

But yes, it is incredibly powerful.

[shaga]

“A rotation causes the winds to circle the center in clockwise or counterclockwise fashion.”
That seems like a tornado to me, not to mention it actually says tornado in the spells text. As for the spell being overpowered I don’t thing so. Lets see.

Caster lvl 6 : Light wind -- > strong => -2/— . DC 10, Tiny or smaller Knocked down, Small or larger None.

Caster lvl 9 : Light wind -- > Severe => -4/—. DC 15 Tiny Blown away, Small Knocked down, Medium Checked, Large or larger None.

Caster lvl 12 : Light wind -- > Windstorm => Impossible/-4. DC 18, Small or smaller Blown away, Medium Knocked down, Large or Huge Checked, Gargantuan or Colossal None.

Caster lvl 15 : Light wind -- > Hurricane => Impossible/-8, DC 20, Medium or smaller Blown away, Large Knocked down, Huge Checked, Gargantuan or Colossal None.

Caster lvl 18: Light wind -- > Tornado => Impossible/impossible. DC 30 Large or smaller Blown away, Huge Knocked down, Gargantuan or Colossal Checked

So in order for a caster to actually create a tornado inside the monsters lair, he must be 18 caster lvl. At that level I am sure you will agree a tornado is not overpowered. Unless they happen to be already in a windstorm, in witch case he is just using the battlefield in his favor (although he will have to roll concentration each round, so I don’t thing that’s a good idea).

[Ashtagon]

I thought the character used two castings of Control Winds in sequence? I could be wrong?

Even if he did, they don't stack that way.

[Manateee]

Even if he did, they don't stack that way.
If only there were some sort of written record of what the OP said...

he cast Control Weather to set the wind strength to a very specific level

[ericgrau]

He'd have to be caster level 15 to pull it off. On a failed save (very likely I know) foes are pushed away and dealt an average of 6 nonlethal damage per round for an average of 24 rounds at level 15. I don't see what the big deal is, that seems pretty weak. True foes can't get in the cave, but a wall or teleporting or such would also save the party from the foes. And likewise some foes with the right measures could get around control winds if they could get around those other spells.

[gomipile]

Even if he did, they don't stack that way.

The spell says "For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. " It does not say "from what it was naturally." Also, it is not a numerically measured effect, and is not a typed bonus. Therefore, RAW, it does stack.

[Ashtagon]

The spell says "For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. " It does not say "from what it was naturally." Also, it is not a numerically measured effect, and is not a typed bonus. Therefore, RAW, it does stack.

It says "...by one level". Sounds like something that can be called a numerically measured effect to me.

I mean, what is "one" in this context if it isn't a number?

In any case, PHB says spells do not stack with themselves, regardless of typed or untyped bonus (p171-2).

[SanguisAevum]

Sorry, but the control winds spell simply doesnt function like many of you here believe it does. (emphasis mine)

Transmutation [Air]
Level: Air 5, Drd 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft./level
Area: 40 ft./level radius cylinder 40 ft. high
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: No

You alter wind force in the area surrounding you. You can make the wind blow in a certain direction or manner, increase its strength, or decrease its strength. The new wind direction and strength persist until the spell ends or until you choose to alter your handiwork, which requires concentration. You may create an “eye” of calm air up to 80 feet in diameter at the center of the area if you so desire, and you may choose to limit the area to any cylindrical area less than your full limit.

Wind Direction
You may choose one of four basic wind patterns to function over the spell’s area.

•A downdraft blows from the center outward in equal strength in all directions.
•An updraft blows from the outer edges in toward the center in equal strength from all directions, veering upward before impinging on the eye in the center.
•A rotation causes the winds to circle the center in clockwise or counterclockwise fashion.
•A blast simply causes the winds to blow in one direction across the entire area from one side to the other.
Wind Strength
For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. Each round on your turn, a creature in the wind must make a Fortitude save or suffer the effect of being in the windy area.

Strong winds (21+ mph) make sailing difficult.

A severe wind (31+ mph) causes minor ship and building damage.

A windstorm (51+ mph) drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships.

Hurricane force winds (75+ mph) destroy wooden buildings, sometimes uproot even large trees, and cause most ships to founder.

A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.

It does Not let you create wind storms as per the weather rules.

It allows you to control wind speed and wind direction in a limited area and in a limited manner. Specifically...

•A downdraft blows from the center outward in equal strength in all directions.

•An updraft blows from the outer edges in toward the center in equal strength from all directions, veering upward before impinging on the eye in the center.

•A rotation causes the winds to circle the center in clockwise or counterclockwise fashion.

•A blast simply causes the winds to blow in one direction across the entire area from one side to the other.

Now... Assuming you pick the rotation option, and are of sufficient level to increase the wind speed to tornado force, You do not CREATE a tornado, you simply cause a wind to rotate at tornado speeds within the spells area of effect.

The spell goes on to say that that those subject to the winds you create are affected in the same way as persons caught in the coresponding wind storm, agian... it does NOT say your create a wind storm, rather you create winds that blow in a certain manner and are of a comparable strength to a wind storm.

As for the save DC, you will note there is no SR, so it is NOT the magic your are saving against, its the wind... so you should use the DC of the appropriate wind effect.

[ericgrau]

As fior the save DC, you will note there is no SR, so it is NOT the magic your are saving against, its the wind... so you should use the DC of the appropriate wind effect.
I actually didn't notice this until you pointed it out, but by the way the text is worded it seems you use the spell save DC rather than the wind DC, which makes the spell even weaker. Other spells with no SR tend to work the same way, and it is the default. If you want to be super literal RAW about it then you'd save twice: first at the spell save DC to not be affected by the wind and a second time at the wind save DC as normal. Though I think RAMS is a single save at the spell save DC.

If the spell duration was instantaneous and not dispellable then I might buy that it was a completely non-magical effect and then use the mundane effect DC, but as-is it's simply another no SR spell that still saves normally.

Either way I'd much rather have a wall of force which is the same level and doesn't require a high caster level.