Optimize the "Super Expert"

[Ziegander]

Take the Fighter, then give it all good saves and the Expert's skills (choose any ten, get 6+Int per level). It may also take any feat as a bonus feat instead of just the normal fighter feats. You must still meet the prerequisites.

Can anything cool be done with that?

[Human Paragon 3]

Yeah, that'd be great. I did something similar in Test of Spite. It was a mounted combat build focused on spirited charging with a lance, abusing quirks in the Ride skill rules (dropping for cover and using that cover to hide, for example), and progressive UMD usage. I had a rod of many wands that I equipped with True Strike, Glitterdust, and Manyjaws or Enervation, and a pocket full of other wands and scrolls for any occasion.

My mount was a CL20 Phantom Stag.

In a more long term game, I would probably get a nightmare cohort or purchase some kind of flying steed magic item.

A really fun build. I used feat rogue and tricked myself into full BAB with Tensor's Transformation, but your hypothetical class doesn't need transformation.

EDIT: See him in action here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125288).
And here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124885). You win some, you lose some.:smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

Take the Fighter, then give it all good saves and the Expert's skills (choose any ten, get 6+Int per level). It may also take any feat as a bonus feat instead of just the normal fighter feats. You must still meet the prerequisites.

Can anything cool be done with that?

.....oh yes, I think so.

In fact, I suspect I could get this char rather effective spellcasting, with sufficiently large levels of cheese.

[Ziegander]

.....oh yes, I think so.

In fact, I suspect I could get this char rather effective spellcasting, with sufficiently large levels of cheese.

That's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. What's the most powerful/cheesy thing you can build from that chassis?

[Human Paragon 3]

I don't get that. If you want spellcasting, play a wizard. The strengths of this chasis are the skills and the BAB. Your build should take advantage of that.

If you're just looking for broken feat combos, snag Imperious Command and other fear optimizing feats. If you can take the feat from the expert list that grants sneak attack, take that as well as staggering strike.

[Chronos]

There are a bunch of different directions you could go with this, but you'd have to choose only one or two, since you don't have enough feats to pull them all off. For instance, you could get a bunch of Incarnum stuff using nothing but feats, and stack the skill bonuses from soulmelds with actual skill points.

[Tyndmyr]

That's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. What's the most powerful/cheesy thing you can build from that chassis?

Well, personally, I'd start with a dragonwrought kobold. I can take the feat hit, and access to epic feats is win.

Then, we'd start out with Magical Training at level 1. Access to cantrips. (If flaws are allowed, feel free to take shortcuts)

Level 2? Earth Spell.

Level 3? Sanctum Spell. Your spells are now technically level 2. Your next nine feats are those feats that give you extra slots of any level but your highest. This'll give you a spell slot of each level. If you're in the mood for cheese, chaos shuffle lower feats higher in the chain, giving you all arbitrarily high level slots. Note that you'll want to switch over to Improved Spell Capacity when you surpass 9th level.

Note that if you're squishy early on, Epic Toughness is available for +30 hp for a single feat slot. Extra Spell is the feat to get you spells known.

Next, we grab quicken.

The rest of the feats, we dump on Multispell. How many slots you want and how many multispells are up to you, and depend on how much you value endurance vs how many 9th level spells you want to cast a round. The # of both should be quite large.

[Ziegander]

Well, personally, I'd start with a dragonwrought kobold. I can take the feat hit, and access to epic feats is win.

Access to epic feats because the Dragonwrought Kobold is... a true dragon? Because that argument is incredibly dubious. For the sake of this thread, let's assume a Dragonwrought Kobold is not a true dragon and let's not argue about it.


Then, we'd start out with Magical Training at level 1. Access to cantrips. (If flaws are allowed, feel free to take shortcuts)

Okay, this feat presumably grants you three 0-level spell slots per day and it definitely gives you an arcane caster level of 1 (which is handy for many reasons).


Level 2? Earth Spell.

With the prerequisites of Earth Sense and Heighten Spell? You could take them at first level I suppose. Still, I don't see why you want Earth Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-stone--82/earth-spell--798/). You can't use the Heighten Spell feat on your 0-level spells because you don't have 1st level spell slots.


Level 3? Sanctum Spell. Your spells are now technically level 2. Your next nine feats are those feats that give you extra slots of any level but your highest. This'll give you a spell slot of each level.

I just don't understand how this is possible. With Sanctum Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcerers--51/sanctum-spell--2508/) you can effectively cast 1st level spells using your 0-level spell slots, but you still cannot Heighten them.

I think it could work, but it would require a LOT of fiddling around. Extra Slot, for example, requires a caster level of 4, which you'll need Practiced Spellcaster for. You can get a 2nd level spell slot with Precocious Apprentice, which you can then use to get a 1st level slot via Extra Slot, but then, in order to get higher level spell slots you'll need Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell again, which requires you to have Earth Sense and Heighten Spell.

For a Human with two flaws, at 1st level we'd be looking at: Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, and Earth Spell.

Then, we'd need to take Sanctum Spell at 2nd level, and Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd level. Finally, at 4th we can take Extra Slot for the first time, allowing us to cast something other than our three cantrips or the 2nd level spell we picked with Precocious Apprentice.

Does this actually feel like it's worth it? I'm not sure.