3 mages VS 1 3rd lvl Fighter

[TheDarkSaint]

My friend and I have a friendly wager going. We're going to pit 3 1st level specialist wizards against 1 3rd level fighter.

I feel the wizards are going to take down the fighter, hard. He thinks my little mages won't stand a chance.

Here's the rules.

We can use which ever books we like and max them out. No magic items, standard eq only.

The first fight starts 60 feet a part. 2nd starts at 30 and the 3rd the fighter starts within 5 feet. Wizards have to be within 20 feet of each other.

I'd like some help designing 3 specialist wizards to whomp him pretty hard. Suggestions?

[Seerow]

So all 3 fights have the wizards clumped relatively together within the Fighter's charge range? What's the point of the separate fights?


Either way, 3 wizards = 3 chances to win initiative. level 3 isn't enough to avoid Sleep.

[Diarmuid]

Do they all have to be the same specialization?

[SamBurke]

At least one of them should take Imp. Init, and have a humming bird, for +4 to initiative. Add in a dec of 14 or so, and you have an insta-win button for initiative. If PF's allowed, there's a trait (Reactionary) for +2 to init as well.

I'd go in and combine, laying down lots of affects at once: colorspray to stop him from doing anything, grease to get him on the ground, more as you wish.

[NOhara24]

I'd like some help designing 3 specialist wizards to whomp him pretty hard. Suggestions?

He's a fighter, and he's got a crappy reflex save because of it.Use Grease (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Grease).

Cast it on his weapons. Cast it when he gets too close. Cast it because it's hilarious. Have two wizards focus on making him angry, have another slowly chip away at his HP. Battle is over.

[hex0]

I know a lot of people are going to suggest Charm, Sleep, Hypnotize, Color Spray, Grease.

I'm going to suggest three Evokers with the Run (or Speed of Thought) feat that cast Expeditious Retreat, run away, and use magic missile. If that runs out, there are always crossbows. The fighter will never get close enough...

Also if these are human wizards, then Dodge and Sidestep Charge may be decent feats for once.

[TheDarkSaint]

I can use any combination of specialists that I want. I'm thinking I want to force as many Will saves as possible.

I like the idea of improved initiative.

[The Glyphstone]

I know a lot of people are going to suggest Charm, Sleep, Hypnotize, Color Spray, Grease.

I'm going to suggest three Evokers with the Run feat that cast Expeditious Retreat, run away, and use magic missile. If that runs out, there are always crossbows. The fighter will never get close enough...

Also if these are human wizards, then Dodge and Sidestep Charge may be decent feats for once.

This is hilarious. Do it.

[Manateee]

Next up: 3 Balors vs. a Housecat!

[OracleofWuffing]

Hm... If you're really confident in your initiative, how about doing the Fell Drain Sonic Snap trick on all three wizards so he's your zombie after taking three hit points of damage?

[Ziegander]

This is facepalm worthy. Your Wizards could be naked, unspecialized, and have no feats and still curbstomp whatever "optimized" 3rd level Fighter your friend could possibly come up with.

I can't imagine any other outcome than the Wizards immediately winning as soon as they get to act.

[mikau013]

If he has less than 50 hp, you can use powerword pain from RotD.

It deals 1d6 dmg + 1d6 per round.

Duration is based on his hp, if 50 or less 4d4 rounds.

No save or attack roll needed :smallsmile:

[TheDarkSaint]

This is what I'm thinking, but we've never done anything like this before and he seemed so confident about it that I was a little worried. I've stumbled on you guys talking about optimization so I was thinking there was probably some build for 3rd level fighter that should be able to make it happen.

Seems likely that there is not.

Should be amusing.

[hex0]

Hilarious suggestion #2: Have 3 Rapid Summoning Variant Conjurers use the Mount spell to summon three light horses to hoof the heck out of the fighter...

Seriously.

[Xiander]

Is it plausible for all three mages to focus on boosting one of them enough to take out the fighter by beating him with a stick?

Because that would be epic. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

Since the opponents have 4 + con HP it and because of sleep and color spray, it would make more sense for the fighter to be an elven archer with rapid shot. 2 dead mages per round.

Grease lasts a round and is a minor hindrance, not a SoL, don't bother.

The mounts summoned by mount are scared of combat and don't know how to attack on command anyway. You need a war trained mount for that.

Power word pain is slow so it seems like it would result in a draw. Or victory in the negatives if the fighter is really lucky. Might be the best option though.

Fell drain is +2 metamagic.

The fighter has maybe 27 HP. You could magic missile for 10.5 per round, but that'll decrease if mages start dying. Charm person gives him a +4 to his save. 3 of them might work, but the moment you attack the fighter it breaks it. True strike + large size crossbows could do 9 damage per mage if they survive to round 2. I think we need a spell compendium spell. I'm stuck on this one. I'm betting on either incompetent fighter or victory to the fighter.

[TheDarkSaint]

HAHAHAHAHAHAA


Oh...the shame of getting trampled by a Mount Spell.

that's too good. Might try that one.

[Morph Bark]

Even according to the CR system the Fighter will fail. 3 CR 1s = 1 CR 4. So you'd need a 4th level Fighter to make it even according to the CR system.

[HailDiscordia]

I agree that the mages will probably win pretty handily. However, the fighter should forget about charging, focus on Dex, and pick up a bow. He will have enough feats for rapid shot and a single shot can take out a 1st level mage. If he wins initiative, gets lucky and makes a save, it could happen...

[Campbellk8105]

Is he actually using the Fighter class, or making a fighter type?

I'd see a tripping build not doing horribly bad if he actually got a decent initiative roll, but as the OP said earlier, even if you have one wizard that beats him and uses Grease well, he's pretty much toast.

If there were only 2 wizards against his one fighter, I'd give him a better chance so long as he won initiative. It's the 3rd wizard that's giving me the most trouble on how he can win.

[The Glyphstone]

It's possible, but considering the terms of the duel (the fighter always starts close), the odds that the opponent will build an archer is ludicrously small.

[Ziegander]

The "scariest" thing I can think of is he could come at you with, like, a Necropolitan, so he's immune to mind-affecting effects (as well as lots of other stuff, like stunning), but even then, what defense does he have against the lowly Magic Missile?

If you're specialist Evokers (can you be focused specialists or do you have to just be normal specialists), then you get three 1st level spells per day with each Wizard. That's 9 magic missiles. That's 9d4+9 damage (more than 30 on average). A 3rd level Fighter with Con 16 will have an average of 30hp.

If all of your Wizards are Conjuration focused, then they get one of the best defenses in the game, Abrupt Jaunt. With Abrupt Jaunt in their pockets the Fighter literally can't ever hit any of them. You'll need a new offense tactic, but we're talking about Conjuration. I'm sure you'll think of something.

[SamBurke]

My suggestion would be the same as the others': You could curb stomp him with almost anything, so prove your point effectively. For example, give the fighter three lives, and kill him three times. THAT would prove it.

[Tr011]

Easy win for the wizards:

1. Optimize your action ergonomy (3 wizards + 3 familiars = 6 standard actions, 3 movements and 6 swift actions each round).
2. Optimize the meaning of each action (Blockade from CSoundrel is swift action and blocks charges i.e.).
3. ????
4. Profit.

[TheDarkSaint]

I can be a focused specialist, but I need to know exactly where it is. I've poked through UA a bit, but can't seem to find the rulings for it.


That's a whole lot of magic missile damage.....that's a thought.

[mikau013]

Even according to the CR system the Fighter will fail. 3 CR 1s = 1 CR 4. So you'd need a 4th level Fighter to make it even according to the CR system.

Not really no, 3 CR 1 = 1 EL 3. Is right there in the table in the DMG

[SamBurke]

Two level 1's is CR3.

[hex0]

If you're specialist Evokers (can you be focused specialists or do you have to just be normal specialists), then you get three 1st level spells per day with each Wizard. That's 9 magic missiles.

Actually if they were 3 WARMAGES, they'd do even better at this with max INT and CHA (more missiles with higher damage). Also Light Armor and d6 hit die.

[Ziegander]

I can be a focused specialist, but I need to know exactly where it is. I've poked through UA a bit, but can't seem to find the rulings for it.

Ah, well that's because Focused Specialist is from Complete Mage.


That's a whole lot of magic missile damage.....that's a thought.

If you went specialist Evokers, I would go for the fighter feats Wizard and pick up Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, and Martial Study (Counter Charge). Your defense isn't as perfect as a Conjuration specialist with Abrupt Jaunt, but it's pretty close and you have a fail-safe offensive option with Magic Missile. Give all of them toad familiars too, just in case. You only need 11 Int, so go ahead and give them solid Con (16 or higher) and good Dex.

But, really, you should probably go for Conjuration specialist and take Abrupt Jaunt from PHB2, because it's just that good.

[Diarmuid]

I cant believe no one's brought up Abrupt Jaunt yet.

[mikau013]

Two level 1's is CR3.

Do you have a source for that because my DMG says: 2 lvl 1 = EL2

[SamBurke]

I cant believe no one's brought up Abrupt Jaunt yet.

It's been brought up twice. As a note, Command+F or Control+F searches the entire page on all computers.

[Diarmuid]

Look at more than 1 line.

Mine shows 3 CR 1's can be anywhere from EL 2-4.

[mikau013]

Look at more than 1 line.

Mine shows 3 CR 1's can be anywhere from EL 2-4.

*smacks self* whoops can't believe I missed that :smallredface:

[ericgrau]

It's possible, but considering the terms of the duel (the fighter always starts close), the odds that the opponent will build an archer is ludicrously small.

I see, since he's willing to lower his initiative and reflex save so that he'll be able to take down 1 mage at a time instead of 2?:smallconfused:

This is why I'm hedging my bet with "fighter incompetence".

Close range is actually his biggest enemy due to color spray. An illusionist might spray him buying time for the other 2 illusionists to get closer then spray lock him while they plink him down with crossbow bolts and/or power word pain. It takes some luck to win both initiative and the first save (otherwise 1-2 mages might drop right away) unless all 3 mages are close, but I don't see many better options that are actually feasible against a competent foe. If all 3 mages are close then the terms of the duel are actually favoring the mages tremendously not the fighter; as the host wrongly assumed melee favors the fighter. Especially when the best mage options have a range of 15-25 feet and initiative favors the larger group who gets 3 rolls. Assuming there are 3 duels at 60, 30 and 5 feet I'd say the last 2 still heavily favor the mages while an elven archer is likely to win (or power word pain tie) the first.

I may be killing my own bet given the O.P. tips like this, but then I wonder if these duels are so easy why the posters ask for help and get the 5 greatest splatbook tricks they can find to win these easy duels.

[Radar]

Abrupt Jaunt is probably the best defensive a wizard can get at this level. As for the spells, Color Spray is most likely to win the fight. Sleep is risky, since the fighter could be an elf. It's not as good against a 3rd level character, but stun is good enough to buy some time. Even a lowly level 1 summon could do some serious damage over time. With 3 focused specialists, you have at least 9 level 1 spells to use. One of the wizards could be a human with Augment Summoning to make those summons a bit more useful. In a 3 vs. 1 fight Daze cantrip is quite an advantage - trading actions one for one is a good option for once.

[Torq]

Is it plausible for all three mages to focus on boosting one of them enough to take out the fighter by beating him with a stick?

Because that would be epic. :smallbiggrin:

Alter Self (via Precocious Apprentice) + Mage Armor + Shield + DEX + Fight Defensively = 28AC for the first round.

If the mage can position himself between the Fighter and the two other mages, he can probably avoid getting hit.

Then offensive buffs for the second round could easily let the buffed mage win vs. 3rd level fighter.

Probably not the most effective strategy, but it's not short on hilarity.

[Dazed&Confused]

On top of Imp. Init, humming bird, dex of 14 or so, Reactionary trait(PF), Aggressive trait(UA), you could also add Nerveskitter(SC). This would give you a +19 bonus on Initiative on all 3 mages, so it's quite obvious who's starting. It's insta-win in the first two rounds if you use Color Spray and make all of them Strongheart Halfling with Spell Focus(Illusion) and Shadow Weave Magic, or Humans with SF(Illusion) and Tatoo Focus. It's a lot of different effects, I really can't see how he would be immune to all of them, and any of those effects is crippling enough. Plus, resisting will DC 16-17 3 times in a row is close to impossible for a 3rd level fighter. Buy a scythe for eventual coup de graces, if he's not immune to Sleep. I don't care if he has 3d10 on his HP, he's just not gonna pass an average DC 30 Fortitude.

The Color Spray will make him blinded and stunned, I really doubt he's immune to all that AND magic sleep at the same time. In any of these cases, you cripple him, get a lot of distance and Magic Missile his face down. Or, since you don't have that many level 1 slots and the 3d4+3/round might not be enough to kill him before you run out of spells, you can just get a Heavy Crossbow.

But still, if the dude manages to be immune to everything, make one of the Wizards keep Grease on him, it will take him at least two move actions to get to your mage, so while he's not passing the test he's useless. Then... Magic Missile. Or the crossbow, but if he stays down you're not gonna hit him.

Get frogs as your familiars, 3hp are no bull**** at this level and might save your life.

The last fight is the hardest(obviously). If I was your friend and I went melee, I would be using a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes and Mage Slayer. So you'd basically be fuched, can't run, can't cast defensively, oh well... in this case I'd just get a quarterstaff and try my luck.

This is all assuming a melee character, which is more likely since he's probably the one who suggested starting closer in the next rounds. If he goes ranged, things are pretty different. The first two fights are a lot harder, he can kill one mage/round, at average damage with Rapid Shot. So, in this case, it might be better to have the mage who acts last cast Wall of Smoke(SC) in front of the archer(if he's immune to Color Spray effects, or Sleep, or if he resists them), this will make him have to move to shoot, keeping him from using Rapid Shot, giving one more round to your toon. The last fight would be a lot easier, you can just cast stuff in front of him, or take a step away and do it.

I should mention that the horse summoned by Mount can work as cover. A donkey can do that too, and should be considered as standard equipment(cheap mounts). Would be ridiculously funny to surround him with mounts.

[Ziegander]

I may be killing my own bet given the O.P. tips like this, but then I wonder if these duels are so easy why the posters ask for help and get the 5 greatest splatbook tricks they can find to win these easy duels.

Where did you see anyone mention that this was a "core-only" dual or somesuch like that? The OP clearly said that both parties are allowed to optimize as much as they possibly can.

You're assuming that the Fighter will play to his own strengths and his opponents' weaknesses by coming out with an Elf Archer, and yet if the Wizards use anything more powerful than Sleep, Color Spray, or Magic Missile you call foul?

The whole point is that Wizards have countless more options and tricks than Fighters. That's precisely why these fights are easy for Wizards. If Wizards didn't have all these powerful options, then the fights would be more balanced. :smallconfused:

[SamBurke]

Do you have a source for that because my DMG says: 2 lvl 1 = EL2

That's me being PF-savvy.... that's what it is for Pathfinder. Kinda assumed that it was the same.

[GreenSerpent]

Three (Focused) Specialist Evokers with as high DEX as possible, flaws to grant them Improved Initiative, the Aggressive trait, Hummingbird or Toad familiars, all with Precocious Apprentice to get Scorching Ray.

Goodbye fighter. Even if you survive the first barrage then there's Magic Missiles ready as backup.

[Calanon]

Next up: 3 Balors vs. a Housecat!

Hey lets make this a little more fair

3 Pit Fiends Vs a Housecat! Those Housecats are deadly little critters i mean? What other monsters can 1 shot a Wizard?

[Ziegander]

I think this is the best I can come up with for the Fighter at 3rd level. I still don't see how it stands a chance in hell against three 1st level Wizards.

Fighter Archer

Race - Elf Necropolitan (lose 1 level and Con score in exchange for being Undead and gaining all the immunities that come with it)

HP - 19
AC - 18
Speed - 30ft
Initiative +9
Str 8 Dex 20 Con -- Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8

Fort +3 Ref +5 Will +3

Feats - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative

Longbow (75gp) Studded Leather (25gp) + 50 extra gold (maybe an Inflict Light Wounds potion).


If flaws are added into the equation, then I'd go for Noncombatant and Pathetic (reduce that Con -- by 2), but I don't really know what extra feats I'd want to take. I don't know of any good low level archery feats.

[Morph Bark]

Not really no, 3 CR 1 = 1 EL 3. Is right there in the table in the DMG

I don't have a DMG handy and most DMG stuff isn't in the SRD, but the standard formula is 2 of CR X = CR X+2. And 1 of CR X + 1 of CR X-2 = CR X+1. So with that 3 CR 1s would be CR 4.

The earlier levels might be different, since I know it's different for XP gains, but what I've presented here is the standard formula.

[Helldog]

The table in DMG says that 3 creatures of CR 1 are EL 2, 3 or 4.

[Ellrin]

Okay, how about this as the fighter? A winged (Savage Species) jermlaine (MM2). With a +2 LA, he's only a first level fighter, but he's got +10 Dex, perfect maneuverability 60ft. base flight speed. Assuming he has a 16+ Dex, that's at least a +8 initiative, so he has a serious chance of winning init. First turn, he runs straight up into the air 240 ft., out of the reach of just about any 1st-level caster spell, and after that rains tiny arrows down on the wizards for as long as it takes.

EDIT:
I CAN MATH.

[CTrees]

That's me being PF-savvy.... that's what it is for Pathfinder. Kinda assumed that it was the same.

Actually, three level one NPCs of a PC race and class, in Pathfinder, is a CR 2 encounter (one level one human wizard is a CR 1/2). Interestingly those NPCs actually get MORE GP worth of equipment than the level 1 starting PC wealth, so NPC WBL vs. PC WBL isn't even changing the equation, here.

[mikau013]

I think this is the best I can come up with for the Fighter at 3rd level. I still don't see how it stands a chance in hell against three 1st level Wizards.

Fighter Archer

Race - Elf Necropolitan (lose 1 level and Con score in exchange for being Undead and gaining all the immunities that come with it)

HP - 19
AC - 18
Speed - 30ft
Initiative +9
Str 8 Dex 20 Con -- Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8

Fort +3 Ref +5 Will +3

Feats - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative

Longbow (75gp) Studded Leather (25gp) + 50 extra gold (maybe an Inflict Light Wounds potion).


If flaws are added into the equation, then I'd go for Noncombatant and Pathetic (reduce that Con -- by 2), but I don't really know what extra feats I'd want to take. I don't know of any good low level archery feats.

Necropolitan loses 2 levels though, unless I'm severely mistaken

Edit: I guess I was, since half way between 2 and 3 is 2000 xp - 1000 = still lvl 1

[Ellrin]

Necropolitan loses 2 levels though, unless I'm severely mistaken

Necropolitan loses a level + 1000XP, so it depends on how much spare XP he has lying around.

[Ziegander]

Necropolitan loses 2 levels though, unless I'm severely mistaken


Necropolitan loses a level + 1000XP, so it depends on how much spare XP he has lying around.

Hmm. Yeah, I'd forgotten about the additional 1000xp cost. That brings him down to 1st level, which isn't really worth it.

That Winged Jermlaine is probably the Fighter's best bet, and if that's the case.. the Wizards are still dominating this encounter.

[Tr011]

Please do NOT focus to much on one tactic. If you make 3 wizards each with magic missles prepared only and the fighter is immune to it somehow (I'd know two ways) he can kill you with ease.

[mikau013]

Please do NOT focus to much on one tactic. If you make 3 wizards each with magic missles prepared only and the fighter is immune to it somehow (I'd know two ways) he can kill you with ease.

That is why you take powerword:pain it is a lot better :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

My friend and I have a friendly wager going. We're going to pit 3 1st level specialist wizards against 1 3rd level fighter.

I feel the wizards are going to take down the fighter, hard. He thinks my little mages won't stand a chance.

Here's the rules.

We can use which ever books we like and max them out. No magic items, standard eq only.

The first fight starts 60 feet a part. 2nd starts at 30 and the 3rd the fighter starts within 5 feet. Wizards have to be within 20 feet of each other.

I'd like some help designing 3 specialist wizards to whomp him pretty hard. Suggestions?


This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228852), especially the end, is of interest. I've probably been ninja'd.

[Chronos]

Do not use Sleep. If you use Sleep, you will lose, even if he's not playing an elf. The problem is that it's got a one round casting time, during which time he can just charge you and cleave through all of you.

Do not try to use Precocious Apprentice, except possibly for fueling a reserve feat. A spell cast via Precocious Apprentice has a significant chance of failure.

And prepare for the possibility that he's going to be Necropolitan, which will neutralize Color Spray and Fell Drain metamagic. On the other hand, if he does go Necropolitan, he'll have terrible HP, so in that case, blasting becomes viable.

What I would recommend: All three wizards should swap out Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative, and take hummingbird familiars. All three should be Strongheart Halflings for the bonus feat and small size. Pump Dex as high as you can, ignoring Con (no matter what you do with Con, you're probably in one hit, one kill range at this point). All three should be focused specialists, and all three should have two flaws.

Two of them should have one slot each for Color Spray, and all the rest of their slots used on spells that can trade actions with a necropolitan. The third should be a blaster, using Magic Missile and a sudden metamagic, plus Precocious Apprentice and a reserve feat powered by it. The first two mages should lead off with Color Spray if he's not necropolitan, or their delaying spells if he is. The third one throws Magic Missiles until he runs out, and then starts using his reserve feat. Either way, the first two should be able to keep him out of commission for long enough for the third to burn him out.

[mikau013]

Hmmm the fighter will probably either make a waterorc dragonborn or some insane template stacking right?

[Ziegander]

What I would recommend: All three wizards should swap out Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative, and take hummingbird familiars. All three should be Strongheart Halflings for the bonus feat and small size. Pump Dex as high as you can, ignoring Con (no matter what you do with Con, you're probably in one hit, one kill range at this point). All three should be focused specialists, and all three should have two flaws.

Two of them should have one slot each for Color Spray, and all the rest of their slots used on spells that can trade actions with a necropolitan. The third should be a blaster, using Magic Missile and a sudden metamagic, plus Precocious Apprentice and a reserve feat powered by it. The first two mages should lead off with Color Spray if he's not necropolitan, or their delaying spells if he is. The third one throws Magic Missiles until he runs out, and then starts using his reserve feat. Either way, the first two should be able to keep him out of commission for long enough for the third to burn him out.

I don't know why you aren't recommending Abrupt Jaunt to all of them. It's an unbeatable defense against any melee or ranged attack. What is the Fighter supposed to do to win if he can't ever hit any of the Wizards?

[Gavinfoxx]

You do know that it is possible for 1 mage to have a solid chance to solo 3 level 3 fighters, correct? If properly built? There was a thread where one mage solod a party of level 3 characters...

[Gwendol]

Winged archer could maybe pose a marginal threat. It's after all not like the wizards have HP to spare. Templates may have uses, but to the cost of level advancement. Stay away from full-round casting and you'll be fine: heck a tanglefoot bag can end this real quick.

[Red_Dog]

*sigh* threads like this make me shake my head.

Wizards have an insane advantage by the simple action economy alone. Based on this ALONE, no matter what classes, if played with half a brain and average luck, the fight is a loosing one on a side of a "bigger guy".

As for potential fighter build. Its almost impossible to get ahead in action economy here, especially if the wizards take blasted Improved I.

================================================== =>
However here is MY build.

FOUNTAINHEAD ARROW. [MiC p.52 btw] That's it, that's the build. Take say 5 of them (1530gp. at lvl3, fighter has 2700). It does 2d8 acid in 10 radius. You need to hit AC5 to score a hit on a selected square. Short of rolling a one, you are good.
*EDIT: For optional hysteria, you can just chuck the arrows at the squares, THIS way you can get off 3 attacks ^^*


Here are more details, Drow Variant fighter(+2I), Elf(+2dex), max dex, Improved Initiative(+4), Danger Sense, Point Blank, Rapid Shot.

So there it is ^^ Especially if they are clumped together as build says. With any luck, => you get that first turn. You have d20+11 re-roll to get highest. Its not guarantied as wizards have toooooo many attempts to get lucky. But, this is the best I could come up with. (Yes an elf taking drow variant. By RAW its all good.)

In one turn it all should be over, unless luck is not on your side.

Yes yes, I am defending fighters/lower tiers. Some days I just like a challenge ^^.

P.S. This build is not optimized for normal game. But, archer fighters are known to take drow variant & Improved initiative. Danger sense is an overkill at THIS level, but so is 3 wizards. BTW, I am not sure, but if you hit them all with fountain head arrows, they are flatfooted, and Drow Variant allows you to deal your dex as dmg if the targets are flatfooted. I, personally am not sure how to rule this one.

[NiteCyper]

For the Fighter, I'm thinking Hengeyokai Sparrow + Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter variant.
Sparrow Size Fine Speed fly 50 ft. Dex 23
add your Dexterity bonus (if any) as a competence bonus on weapon damage rolls.On flat-footed, but good at Hiding.

Hm, can a sparrow wield a Fine-sized weapon?

[hex0]

For the Fighter, I'm thinking Hengeyokai Sparrow + Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter variant.

Hm, can a sparrow wield a Fine-sized weapon?

Crossbow sniper?

The problem is even the benefit of being very small (high ac) does nothing against enough magic missles...

[Red_Dog]

Hm, can a sparrow wield a Fine-sized weapon?
I'll answer this question with a question. Can hellhound(any animal like outsider) fighter with long swords?


Crossbow sniper?

The problem is even the benefit of being very small (high ac) does nothing against enough magic missles...

He means, be a #%^hole and Hide using MASSIVE bonuses to hide provided by size and dex and maybe an item. Than just snipe till they are all dead.

[nedz]

Whilst I'm quite tempted by this buffing idea (Enlarge Person+Fist of Stone on a 14 Str chassis for +6 Strength mod and reach: +6 to hit and d8+9 damage).

I think you should just daze lock him with cantrips and throw rocks.

Maybe combine the two ?

Colour Spray is just too easy - will save and be stunned for d4+1 rounds against 3rd level. Make your casters Gnomes with Spell Focus(Illusion) for +2 to the DC.

[Jheska]

As your spells of choice I would personnaly suggest either shades, meteor swarm or storm of vengance.

I'm sure forum buffs can fully explain the trick, but combining an elven generalist with domain wizard, versatile spellcaster and something else that escapes me you get 9th level spells at first level. 3 of those should do the trick.

[Lamech]

I'm guessing he was planning on a flying archer. I thinked the winged template is LA +2. What was your plan to be able to hit things 1000 ft up?

[Randomguy]

Get a few tactics, so you've got backup plans.

Two wizards could be conjurers with abrupt jaunt, to not be hit.
One wizard is a specialist enchanter with a hummingbird familiar.
All of your wizards would swap scribe scroll for improved initiative.

One conjurer is a focused specialist and bans necromancy, illusion and enchantment.
He hits the enchanter with nerveskitter first turn. He's also got grease, lesser orb spells and scorching ray (via precocious apprentice).

The other bans necromancy and evocation. He hits with colour spray first turn. He's also got invisibility (via precocious apprentice) to hide and a summoning spell or two. He'll probably disappear after the colour spray and stay alive and summon creatures or just run while power word pain kills the fighter. He could be a gnome for the bonus DC to colour spray.

The enchanter prepares power word pain, maybe twice. He could also possibly get fell drain sonic snap and maybe sleep. He casts power word pain on the first turn. After that, you automatically draw, at the very least.

I don't think it matters if he can fly, as long as you power word pain him first round. Precocious apprentice for levitate might be a decent precaution if he can somehow beat +12 to initiative.

A melee team would be fun for the last match. The casters shatter the fighter's weapon (precocious apprentice). The meleer would be a dwarf for the con bonus or some race with a strength bonus, focus specialising in conjuration and taking the abrupt jaunt variant. He's wield a quarterstaff as a two handed weapon. Precocious apprentice for your feat, taking bulls strength as the spell. All other spells prepared are blades of fire. Scribe scroll is swapped out for improved initiative (all your mages should have this in any scenario).
He casts bulls strength on himself the first round after 5 foot stepping away. The others cast mighty wallop and enlarge person on him. Then he goes to town after jaunting away from the fighter's first attack, casting blades of fire each round and attacking for 2d6+1d8 fire+1.5 times strength mod each round. The other casters keep buffing with shield and mage armour and then retreat to attack with crossbows.

[PersonMan]

He means, be a #%^hole and Hide using MASSIVE bonuses to hide provided by size and dex and maybe an item. Than just snipe till they are all dead.

One of the scenarios has the fighter standing within 5' of one of the wizards.

...How are you going to have the cover you need to hide there?

[NiteCyper]

I'll answer this question with a question. Can hellhound(any animal like outsider) fighter with long swords?I would like to say that the question meant to ask for suggestions of fulfilling the weapon damage requirement of the variant (i.e., apply DEX as a competence bonus to weapon damage rolls on flat-footed opponents via the HNRTFV...ariant). However, I concede to your counter-argument, Red_Dog.
I could argue that given enough intelligence, any animal with a rudimentary grip could perform tasks which require the use of a held tool. I know that there exists a handicapped painter who holds the brush with their feet. They are called "mouth and foot painting artists". No doubt, such endeavours bear great circumstance penalties. Rule of Cool: mouth-wielding blade (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutlassBetweenTheTeeth) -> sparrow mouthbeak-wielding blade.

I wonder what weapon that a sparrow could realistically wield?

[Red_Dog]

I would like to say that the question meant to ask for suggestions of fulfilling the weapon damage requirement of the variant (i.e., apply DEX to weapon-damage on flat-footed opponents via the HNRTFV...ariant).
I could argue that given enough intelligence, any animal with a rudimentary grip could perform tasks which require the use of a held tool. I know that there exists a handicapped painter who holds the brush with their feet. No doubt, such endeavours bear great circumstance penalties.

What weapon could a sparrow realistically wield?

It was a joke man ^^. I meant that YES they can by RAW. Besides, doesn't that race have some kind of natural weapon? 0_o. I never read Oriental Adventures, so I have no clue, but it sounds like it should.



One of the scenarios has the fighter standing within 5' of one of the wizards.

...How are you going to have the cover you need to hide there?

Hmm didn't catch that. Well there is always => drop a smoke stick.

Funny enough, if I was the one actually playing a fighter/issuing this challenge I would try to as hard as I could to get my opponent to let me place a character away from wizards. Preferably at least at first composite bow range increment. Meh, fountain arrow works just as well at any range. So it doesn't matter for my build. ^^

[mikau013]

Standard eq only, so probably no smoke sticks

[NiteCyper]

It was a joke man ^^. I meant that YES they can by RAW. Besides, doesn't that race have some kind of natural weapon? 0_o. I never read Oriental Adventures, so I have no clue, but it sounds like it should.

Sorry, I missed it. Sparrows are one of the only two Hengeyokai animal forms that lack a natural weapon (the other being Magikarp).

[Ziegander]

Funny enough, if I was the one actually playing a fighter/issuing this challenge I would try to as hard as I could to get my opponent to let me place a character away from wizards. Preferably at least at first composite bow range increment. Meh, fountain arrow works just as well at any range. So it doesn't matter for my build. ^^


Standard eq only, so probably no smoke sticks

I take standard equipment to mean 1st level starting gold. But either way, no fountain arrows or composite longbows (not with any strength bonus anyway).

EDIT: Huh. Actually, I suppose "standard equipment" just means no magic items, so the Fighter could have 2700gp in non-magical equipment. It would be nice to get clarification on what "standard equipment" means.

[Rubik]

I dunno where it went off to, but somewhere (either on BG or here) I saw a single level 1 unspecialized wizard take on an entire party of 3-4th level characters, and he won rather handily, but he was rather tactically minded, and their saving throws sucked rather hard.

Have the entire party of wizards max their spells known, then sell their spellbooks and buy higher level scrolls of 5th and 6th level spells to cast on his arse.

[Red_Dog]

I take standard equipment to mean 1st level starting gold. But either way, no fountain arrows or composite longbows (not with any strength bonus anyway).

EDIT: Huh. Actually, I suppose "standard equipment" just means no magic items, so the Fighter could have 2700gp in non-magical equipment. It would be nice to get clarification on what "standard equipment" means.

So we are taking away wealth/MiC as well from a fighter? As in an integrate and extremely vital game mechanic? While keeping wizard supplement books? Argument is moot, null & void. I'm out.

P.S.
Standard eq only, so probably no smoke sticks
Smoke stick is out of PHB1. Under alchemical equipment. Its not magical in anyway and gives off no aura of any kind. I couldn't find activation time, but IMO it would be safe to say that a Full round action should give you enough time to light a bunch of them. Say may be at LEAST 2-3. Or more. Tie them to arrows, (STILL not magical!) and win initiative with feat selection that me or NiteCyper suggested. Than cloud the wizards and your position. Should give you time to do stuff. Like charge them next turn OR walk out and ready action on anyone of them running out of the cloud. But again, this was my last edit/post here as the argument like this is just unreasonable by ALL means ^^

[Morph Bark]

One of the scenarios has the fighter standing within 5' of one of the wizards.

...How are you going to have the cover you need to hide there?

Dark template -> Hide in Plain Sight?

[Yora]

I'd see a tripping build not doing horribly bad if he actually got a decent initiative roll, but as the OP said earlier, even if you have one wizard that beats him and uses Grease well, he's pretty much toast.
Why trip? They are 1st level wizards. If you trip them, they are dead before they hit the ground anyway.

[TravelLog]

This deserves cruelty of the highest order. Make sure one mage moves first in the initiative order. Have him cast Nybor's Gentle Reminder. The fighter can no longer take actions.

Have the other two wizards beat him physically to death.

[Doug Lampert]

Abrupt Jaunt is probably the best defensive a wizard can get at this level. As for the spells, Color Spray is most likely to win the fight. Sleep is risky, since the fighter could be an elf. It's not as good against a 3rd level character, but stun is good enough to buy some time. Even a lowly level 1 summon could do some serious damage over time. With 3 focused specialists, you have at least 9 level 1 spells to use. One of the wizards could be a human with Augment Summoning to make those summons a bit more useful. In a 3 vs. 1 fight Daze cantrip is quite an advantage - trading actions one for one is a good option for once.

Focused specialists don't get bonus spells for high ability scores? Or do your wizards all have EXACTLY 11 Int, because that's the only situation where a focused specialist gets only 3 level 1 spells.

Less than 11 he gets 0 as he can't cast them.
More than 11 he gets 4-5 as he gets 1-2 bonus spells for Int.


Three (Focused) Specialist Evokers with as high DEX as possible, flaws to grant them Improved Initiative, the Aggressive trait, Hummingbird or Toad familiars, all with Precocious Apprentice to get Scorching Ray.

Goodbye fighter. Even if you survive the first barrage then there's Magic Missiles ready as backup.

Hmm, you've got nothing that needs a save, and get all the bonus spells you could want with 12 Int, so 12 Int, 18 Dex, the rest in Con?

[tyckspoon]

This deserves cruelty of the highest order. Make sure one mage moves first in the initiative order. Have him cast Nybor's Gentle Reminder. The fighter can no longer take actions.

Have the other two wizards beat him physically to death.

Attacking his good save in a bid for a 1-turn advantage doesn't seem like a strong bet to me when you could do the same thing with your cantrip slots using Daze or move in and try to hit a Color Spray for a minimum of 2 rounds denied to the Fighter. Or a Cause Fear. There's not really a lack of decent 1st level controlling spells, not when you're still talking about low-HD opponents.

[Treblain]

This deserves cruelty of the highest order. Make sure one mage moves first in the initiative order. Have him cast Nybor's Gentle Reminder. The fighter can no longer take actions.

Have the other two wizards beat him physically to death.

Fortitude Negates. 1 round duration at first level. That's an awful choice. There are far better ways to stop a fighter; Color Spray is vs. Will and stuns for 1d4+1 rounds.

* * *

An option for the fighter that I think might be worth a try is making a Dragonborn with a breath weapon. At 3rd level, it does 2d8 damage, enough to take out a wizard. With one or two metabreath feats, it could be a serious threat. If they can get 19 CON for Quicken Breath, the fighter can take out one or two of the wizards as a free action on their first turn, and they can still use whatever fighter tactic you want to finish up.

[Randomguy]

An option for the fighter that I think might be worth a try is making a Dragonborn with a breath weapon. At 3rd level, it does 2d8 damage, enough to take out a wizard. With one or two metabreath feats, it could be a serious threat. If they can get 19 CON for Quicken Breath, the fighter can take out one or two of the wizards as a free action on their first turn, and they can still use whatever fighter tactic you want to finish up.

Assuming the fighter wins initiative or is capable of acting after losing initiative and that the wizards don't jaunt away.

[herrhauptmann]

The first fight starts 60 feet a part. 2nd starts at 30 and the 3rd the fighter starts within 5 feet. Wizards have to be within 20 feet of each other.

Was going to suggest taht wizard 2 was 20ft behind wiz 1. And wiz3 being 20ft behind wiz2. But you probably intended for them to be in one 20ft spread.


He's a fighter, and he's got a crappy reflex save because of it.Use Grease (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Grease).

Cast it on his weapons. Cast it when he gets too close. Cast it because it's hilarious. Have two wizards focus on making him angry, have another slowly chip away at his HP. Battle is over.

Have them chip away his HP with a stick. Why? Because it's funny when a mage beats someone to death with a nonmagical item.
You'd need one wizard to grease-lock the fighter with readied actions.
Another would have to deal some HP damage via spells. And the third can get sorta close and start smacking him. Perhaps with a longspear or something else. If you just rely on greaselock and one wizard hitting him with a stick, you'll probably run out of grease spells before you kill him. The chances of a level 1 wizard reliably hurting a level 3 warrior in melee are pretty slim.

[Crasical]

My attempt at a 'fighter'.

Elven Monk
Elite Array
12 Str
17 Dex
11 Con
10 Int
14 Wis
8 Cha

Traits: Reactionary, Aggressive

+3 Fort, +6 Ref, +5 Will, 15 ac, +11 init

Free Feats: Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative (Sleeping Tiger variant)

Point Blank shot, Rapid Shot


Tactics:
Two touch attacks at +4 to throw a vial of 20gp aboleth mucus at two wizards, DC 19 fort, removing their ability to breathe air (And presumably cast spells), before either beating the third to death or hitting him with a vial of mucus too.

[Jheska]

On beating the wizards:

Maximise breath will let you get a pretty much guarenteed kill on one or two of the wizards. Depending on positioning possibly all three.

My only problem is finding a way to kill the third wizard within a round and still win initiative. My first thought was a dragonborn jermaline, plenty of dex to win initiative with a massive to hit bonus. Dragonborn gives us our weapon of choice, but aside from dex and improved initiative we can't really match them because of the dammed hummingbird.

To add insult to injury, abrupt jaunt will negate any attack that couldn't also hit them 10ft further away Int mod/day per wizard. Struggling to see how the fighter can beat that.

[Treblain]

Assuming the fighter wins initiative or is capable of acting after losing initiative and that the wizards don't jaunt away.

True, initiative is certainly the biggest factor in this. But other than the fact that the wizards have three rolls to the fighter's one, I don't think the wizards end up that far ahead. The fighter doesn't need to invest in STR if they're an archer, because wizards are so squishy, so they can also put points in DEX. If they're not an archer, they can get Improved Initiative and/or the Hit-and-Run ACF.

If we're going to keep harping on Abrupt Jaunt, keep in mind that it costs your familiar, so no Hummingbird, and you have to be a Conjurer, which is not a specialist that favors this challenge. And if you don't win initiative, you can't use an immediate action. If only one of the three wizards is a conjurer, and he loses initiative, Abrupt Jaunt is out of the contest.

[OracleofWuffing]

Fell drain is +2 metamagic.
:smallconfused: Er, sorry for being away for five hours and getting post avalanched, but, um... I don't think that's a problem? I mean, it's a horrible thing to do for actual play, but in the vacuum of level-one player-versus-player get-all-spells-back-each-new-combat, you can hit Versatile Spellcaster up to cast your +2 metamagic at level one. I mean, yeah, there's the issue of undead basically beating the strategy hands down, but it being +2 isn't too bad, given how important the first round is.

Edit: Make that Spell Focus and Metamagic School focus to drop that to +1.

[Mystify]

Jaunt counters most things the fighter can try. He would need to get multiple attacks. At range. So only a rapid shot archer could feasibly counter it, and even then it halves their effectiveness.

[Crasical]

Jaunt counters most things the fighter can try. He would need to get multiple attacks. At range. So only a rapid shot archer could feasibly counter it, and even then it halves their effectiveness.

The wizards have to get initiative, still. They can't jaunt when flatfooted, and taking jaunt at all requires they be a specialist conjurer and lose their familiar.

[Hirax]

If Dragon Magazine is allowed, I second fell drain+easy metamagic+sonic snap. There's no way he'll kill all 3 wizards before they're able to deliver 3 sonic snaps.

[Crasical]

If Dragon Magazine is allowed, I second fell drain+easy metamagic+sonic snap. There's no way he'll kill all 3 wizards before they're able to deliver 3 sonic snaps.

If he wins initiative, there's a decent chance he'll kill two wizards before they can even act.

[Drork]

Firstly we have made some massive assumptions from the original statement that seem logical to make it far. He said level 3 so level adjustments of X and 3 levels of fighter fit the bill. Be sure to have some level adjusted level 1 specialist mages set up (go with dragon, dragon mages are always fun).

Assuming everything is on the level. level 3 human fighter with improved initiative spike chains trip feat or cleave has a good chance to pull this off concentration at low levels is not 100%. Not to mention a level 3 char has a lot of extra gold for magic items. Build a single use use activated lesser globe of invulnerability and bow those mages down. For the task at hand I would give the fighter a very good chance to take down level 1 mages in a set arena.

Having said that make scrolls! That way you have more outs. Also dont forget the mages in question dont have to have written the scrolls so long as they come in budget. Scorching Ray is only 150 gold sure this a risk you will fail to cast it but its not very big. If he doesnt have a bow levitate for the win Mirror Image is another huge defensive spell against a fighter. Protection of arrows. It would be very funny to use a few scrolls of touch of idiocy and see if you can drop his cha down to 0 (or maybe int or wis depending on his dump stat. Scrolls and coin is the answer too all your problems. This is why I would back a single level one artificer vs level 3 fighter.

[Marnath]

:smallconfused: Er, sorry for being away for five hours and getting post avalanched, but, um... I don't think that's a problem? I mean, it's a horrible thing to do for actual play, but in the vacuum of level-one player-versus-player get-all-spells-back-each-new-combat, you can hit Versatile Spellcaster up to cast your +2 metamagic at level one. I mean, yeah, there's the issue of undead basically beating the strategy hands down, but it being +2 isn't too bad, given how important the first round is.

No you can't. Versatile spellcaster is for spontaneous casters only.:smallconfused:

[OracleofWuffing]

If Dragon Magazine is allowed, I second fell drain+easy metamagic+sonic snap. There's no way he'll kill all 3 wizards before they're able to deliver 3 sonic snaps.
As the guy what brought it up, I'm going to remind you again that if he's undead, he's immune to the juicy effect. It's also pretty good for the Fighter to go Necropolitan, because it also grants him immunity to Color Spray. As awesome as it is to snap a guy dead, it might be a better idea to invest in Glitterdust, Invisibility, or Mirror Image. Bah, and with this edit I'm making, that's not going to work.


No you can't. Versatile spellcaster is for spontaneous casters only.:smallconfused:
Ack, my bad. Wizards use Spell Focus and Metamagic School Focus to reduce the cost by one.

[Crasical]

As the guy what brought it up, I'm going to remind you again that if he's undead, he's immune to the juicy effect. It's also pretty good for the Fighter to go Necropolitan, because it also grants him immunity to Color Spray. As awesome as it is to snap a guy dead, it might be a better idea to invest in Glitterdust, Invisibility, or Mirror Image.

Necropolitan is nice, but it drains so much exp it'd dump him back to 1st level, so I would leave it off the table.

[SirFredgar]

Hmm. Yeah, I'd forgotten about the additional 1000xp cost. That brings him down to 1st level, which isn't really worth it.

That Winged Jermlaine is probably the Fighter's best bet, and if that's the case.. the Wizards are still dominating this encounter.

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but level 3 is 3k xp. You loose a level as if you had died (which puts you at halfway between level 2 and three) for 2k xp. Loose another 1k, and you are down to 1k xp, or level 2

EDIT: My point being, a Level 2 Necropolitian is entirely possible. In fact, one cannot be a necropolitian of any level lower. (try the ritual at level 2 and you end up soul-dead)

[Coidzor]

I dunno where it went off to, but somewhere (either on BG or here) I saw a single level 1 unspecialized wizard take on an entire party of 3-4th level characters, and he won rather handily, but he was rather tactically minded, and their saving throws sucked rather hard.

Class Power by Level, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228852&page=10) and its spin-off thread had something similar, I believe I might have linked to it earlier, but I disremember.

If that's what you're thinking of, he traded his familiar for an animal companion at level one using the UA variant found on the SRD and got the Riding Dog, king of first level animal companions.

Double the fun with wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), but then you have to worry about him flying and your feat investment not paying off.

[Lamech]

On beating the wizards:

Maximise breath will let you get a pretty much guarenteed kill on one or two of the wizards. Depending on positioning possibly all three.

My only problem is finding a way to kill the third wizard within a round and still win initiative. My first thought was a dragonborn jermaline, plenty of dex to win initiative with a massive to hit bonus. Dragonborn gives us our weapon of choice, but aside from dex and improved initiative we can't really match them because of the dammed hummingbird.

To add insult to injury, abrupt jaunt will negate any attack that couldn't also hit them 10ft further away Int mod/day per wizard. Struggling to see how the fighter can beat that.
I'll throw up an attempt at fighter as well: Warforged, incarnate, winged. 3 levels of fighter, buy a great crossbow, and lots of arrows, and snipe the wizards to death from 1500 feet up. He'll also need either hover, or 15 dex so he can load the crossbow in the air. I should probably use the other two levels of fighter for something else cool (fast healing), but I'm guessing most of the wizard builds weren't planning on being able to fly, or deal with that level of silliness. There is also probably a better height to plop yourself at too.

[Mystify]

Can the wizards have anything pre-cast?

[NiteCyper]

One of the scenarios has the fighter standing within 5' of one of the wizards.

...How are you going to have the cover you need to hide there?

Dark template -> Hide in Plain Sight?


The Extraordinary versions still require cover/concealment:
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)

While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

The Dark Creature Template is Extraordinary, and thus only satisfies the "not being observed" Hide requirement. It doesn't meet the cover/concealment requirement, so you'll always have to find some other way to handle that, else you can't Hide.

Hey, I just realized: shadowlight oil is an alchemical item, assuming as others that standard equipment means non-magical. Assuming pre-buffing is allowed, it provides cheap, albeit temporary appropriate concealment.
When I suggested the Hengeyokai Sparrow Fighter, I purposely gave no thought to how hiding would be done off-the-bat. Simply, I figured that the Fighter would use their high flight speed to run away to hide.

Re: Power Word: Pain: Reminds me of Harry Potter (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861106/Compilation_of_Low_Level_builds) (1st-lvl Builds > ~Exploiting a lvl 1 sorcerer~ (by Midgard in Ruin)).

[dextercorvia]

Ack, my bad. Wizards use Spell Focus and Metamagic School Focus to reduce the cost by one.

He's a specialist wizard, so he doesn't need Spell Focus.


Class Power by Level, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228852&page=10) and its spin-off thread had something similar, I believe I might have linked to it earlier, but I disremember.

If that's what you're thinking of, he traded his familiar for an animal companion at level one using the UA variant found on the SRD and got the Riding Dog, king of first level animal companions.

Double the fun with wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), but then you have to worry about him flying and your feat investment not paying off.

The spin off thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229753&page=5). It started as me backing up my statement that a core only wizard deserved to be ranked near barbarian at level 1 in terms of power. I tossed out the level 3 challenge as an example, and ended up doing a same game test against Lonely Tylenol's Barbarian. He wanted Whirling Frenzy (and I didn't mind the expanded options), so we went for whatever OGL content was on d20srd.org

I'm hoping TheMeMan is up for running a full splat challenge.

[Ellrin]

So I've been working on a build, and I'm starting to think the fighter actually has a pretty good chance. I haven't actually started fleshing the build out yet, but after tacking on enough 0 LA templates, I think the fighter's got a distinct advantage.

Spellstitched Swarm-shifter Nether Hound Cauldron Spawn Unseelie Fey Pseudonatural Winged Jermlaine, Level 1 Fighter

(With a 15 point buy-in, assuming I know what that means, which I might not!)
Str 6
Con —
Dex 32
Int 6
Wis 27
Cha 14

Natural Armor +4


While the mages can stack all the same 0 LA templates, spellstitched undead gives the fighter access to spells (with the combination listed above, perhaps up to 6th level?); although the selection is limited, it pretty drastically narrows the spellcasting advantage gap between the wizards and the fighter. And the wizards can't take the Winged template, meaning (unless I'm missing something that gives the wizards flight that's as good as a Netherhound Winged Jermlaine's (70ft? perfect maneuverability)) the fighter can stay out of reach of even the longest range spells. With the massive Dex bonuses and taking a bunch of initiative improving abilities, the fighter can stay roughly on par with the best initiative the wizards can pump out. The main problem for this build is its pathetic HP, meaning summons could pose a serious threat, but with spells and the unseelie fey's magic circle of nature ability, a lot of summons can be pretty easily dealt with and or kept at bay, and the fighter still has perfect, relatively speedy flight to keep running away if necessary. The Dex bonus and natural armor, plus whatever armor the fighter wears, is going to give a very significant AC bonus against the kinds of creatures the casters would be able to summon, as well, and swarmshifter, depending on the kind chosen, can make the fighter nigh invulnerable against a lot of default low-level monsters. Plus he'd have something like 5/- DR, and SR 12 or something, which isn't something to sneeze at for a 1st-level caster.

Of course, given his pathetic Str and tiny size, he might have trouble overcoming the similar DR that these same templates would inevitably grant the mages, but that's what his 2700gp is for, I guess.

EDIT:
Silly me, I bought Con and then went undead. Let's put those points to better use.

[dextercorvia]

Spellstiched and Pseudonatural are both LA -- rather than LA 0, making them not viable for a PC. I didn't check the others.

[Mystify]

Spellstiched and Pseudonatural are both LA -- rather than LA 0, making them not viable for a PC. I didn't check the others.

Indeed, that is one of my pet peeves. "Oh, it doesn't list a LA, so its LA 0". No, not listing an LA means you can't use it, not that its free.

[Ellrin]

Yeah, some of these might not work. I was just kind of going through and tacking everything I saw that looked decent on without putting too much examination into them. The basic concept remains the same, though losing spell-stitched is definitely a significant hit.

[dextercorvia]

If I were building the fighter, assuming that means full BAB mundane guy, I'd probably go Goliath Barbarian1/Fighter 1 with Mountain Rage, Instantaneous Rage, Combat Reflexes, Willing Deformity, and Deformity Tall.

I'd use a Glaive and Armor Spikes. I'd probably lose the 60' away combat unless I won initiative and could close the gap some, but the 30' and closer wouldn't require me to even take a turn. Passing the concentration check to cast defensively at level 1 is anything but certain.

[Chronos]

The trouble with Fell Sonic Snap is that it requires at least two feats per wizard using it, which is a lot of resources invested that can be nullified by the fighter going necropolitan. Although it might actually be manageable... If we go Strongheart Halfling with two flaws, that still gives the wizards a pair of feats each, plus Scribe Scroll or Improved Initiative. So we could go with that, plus using the other options on our wizards to plan for the possibility of a Necropolitan.

If we go the fell sonic snap route, we also don't have to worry too much about wings: The LA would mean he only has one level, so a single snap would kill him, so even a single wizard winning initiative would be enough. He might win the long-distance round, but he'd be almost certain to win the shorter ones.

Actually, the long-distance round might not be a problem, either: If we also give each of the wizards Swift Expeditious Retreat, then they could swift-cast that, run up close to him, and then cast their oh, snap.

I think that hummingbirds are probably a better investment than Abrupt Jaunt, just because Abrupt Jaunt can't be used until your initiative comes up, and that first round is going to be the fighter's best.

So, let's see here...

Focused Specialist (Evoker), bar anything but Transmutation
Strongheart Halfling
Abilities: Int 12, Dex as high as you can pump it
Two flaws
Feats: Improved Initiative (swapped for Scribe Scroll), Fell Drain, a metamagic reducer, Precocious Apprentice, Fiery Burst
Spells prepared: Fell Sonic Snap, Swift Expeditious Retreat, maybe a couple of Magic Missiles

Tactics:
You'll probably win initiative, thanks to cranking up Dex as high as possible, and the hummingbirds. If he's necropolitan, each wizard in turn uses Swift Expeditious Retreat to get as far away as possible (up to 110 feet), and far separated from each other, then Magic Missiles him. If he closes with anyone, use a fiery burst.
If he's not necropolitan, then use the fell sonic snaps. If he's winged, a single one will be enough; if he's not, then three will.

If he beats one or more of the wizards, there's still a non-negligible chance he'll miss, with the wizards each having about +6 to AC (+1 size, +5 dex). And any wizard that goes before him in initiative order is going to have a chance to weaken him considerably, with either a negative level, or with damage.

[Chronos]

Oh, and dextercorvia, you can't take attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

[olentu]

Oh, and dextercorvia, you can't take attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Hence the combat reflexes.

[Campbellk8105]

My Fighter
Using a 28 point buy
Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Human
Large
+1 LA

Hp: 29 (Max HP 1st level. 10+7, 5+7)
40ft Movespeed

30 str (16 base, +4 Half-minotaur, +2 dragonborn, +8 Large)
14 dex (18 base, -2 dragonborn, -2 Large)
24 con (18 base, +4 Large, +2 Half-minotaur)
8 int (10 base, -2 int half-minotaur)
11 wis
10 cha

Feats: Improved Initiative, point blank shot, Brutal Throw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Quickdraw, Flaw 1: TWF, Flaw 2: Rapid Shot

BAB +2

Full Attack +8/+8/+3
Harpoon(Thrown, Medium) 1d10+10 x2 crit

Nothing is blatantly sticking out to me that I did something wrong here but, if so please correct me and let me know.

I also didn't equip him other than the Harpoons.

[dextercorvia]

Oh, and dextercorvia, you can't take attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

It's amazing how little of a limitation that really is, if you work at it. :smallbiggrin:


Hence the combat reflexes.

[Chronos]

Ooh, I'd forgotten that Combat Reflexes does that. Yeah, that would make the adjacent-start combat tricky (the wizards could still move away with normal movement and hope to survive the AoO, but that's dicey), but if I'm not mistaken, your reach would only be 25 feat (10 from glaive, doubled from being large, +5 from deformity), so the 30' match should still be fine for the wizards. Even if you're adding the deformity before multiplying for large, the wizards can 5' step to safely cast.

[dextercorvia]

Ooh, I'd forgotten that Combat Reflexes does that. Yeah, that would make the adjacent-start combat tricky (the wizards could still move away with normal movement and hope to survive the AoO, but that's dicey), but if I'm not mistaken, your reach would only be 25 feat (10 from glaive, doubled from being large, +5 from deformity), so the 30' match should still be fine for the wizards. Even if you're adding the deformity before multiplying for large, the wizards can 5' step to safely cast.

That is true. I'll have to think about it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wizard 1: I cast Shield
Wizard 2: I cast Mage Armor on Wizard 1
Wizard 3: I cast Enlarge Person on Wizard 1

Watch as Wizard 1 beats the Fighter who can't hit him with the AC of 23, at his own game. Probably with an Attack of Opportunity, due to reach from Large Size.

[Venger]

My Fighter
Using a 28 point buy
Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Human
Large
+1 LA

Hp: 29 (Max HP 1st level. 10+7, 5+7)
40ft Movespeed

30 str (16 base, +4 Half-minotaur, +2 dragonborn, +8 Large)
14 dex (18 base, -2 dragonborn, -2 Large)
24 con (18 base, +4 Large, +2 Half-minotaur)
8 int (10 base, -2 int half-minotaur)
11 wis
10 cha

Feats: Improved Initiative, point blank shot, Brutal Throw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Quickdraw, Flaw 1: TWF, Flaw 2: Rapid Shot

BAB +2

Full Attack +8/+8/+3
Harpoon(Thrown, Medium) 1d10+10 x2 crit

Nothing is blatantly sticking out to me that I did something wrong here but, if so please correct me and let me know.

I also didn't equip him other than the Harpoons.


everything looks fine, but you do not get a bonus to your str for being large, no one does.

[Chronos]

Actually, the half-minotaur template does give an additional boost to Str for being large, in addition to the boost from the template itself. Yeah, it's really poorly designed, and overpowered for a mere 1 LA.

Still, a mere +6 initiative isn't going to be nearly enough. My wizards have about +13 initiative, and there are three of them, any two of whom will level-drain you to zero before you can act.

Oh, and as an aside, Dragonborn gives +con, not +str. But that doesn't really matter much.

[OracleofWuffing]

Feats: Improved Initiative (swapped for Scribe Scroll), Fell Drain, a metamagic reducer, Precocious Apprentice, Fiery Burst
Spells prepared: Fell Sonic Snap, Swift Expeditious Retreat, maybe a couple of Magic Missiles
Shouldn't you have a Second Level Fire Spell prepared if you're going to go Fiery Burst?

[Venger]

As your spells of choice I would personnaly suggest either shades, meteor swarm or storm of vengance.

I'm sure forum buffs can fully explain the trick, but combining an elven generalist with domain wizard, versatile spellcaster and something else that escapes me you get 9th level spells at first level. 3 of those should do the trick.

I believe heighten spell and/or earth spell are involved in this trick somehow.

[dextercorvia]

I believe heighten spell and/or earth spell are involved in this trick somehow.

Nope. It is in my sig. You just need a feat like Alacritous Cogitation that qualifies you for Versatile Spellcaster.

[Calanon]

So yeah did we (or you guys) help the OP make his 3 Specialist Wizards? if not...http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/158/248/derp.gif

We all know what the Fighter can do and can have but we all know how the Wizards will react: By destroying the fighter...

[TheDarkSaint]

Wow....you guys are good! :)

I really didn't expect 4 pages of good discussion and you brought up LOTS of good questions and some really great suggestions.

We're part of the really old school players who never had magic shops and buying magical items seems... weird to us. He mentioned having some potions of resistance (I'm assuming it is like the cantrip?). To even the odds a bit, I think he should have one magic weapon and a magical item or armor.

The crux of the argument is melee. I don't think he's going to go long range at all cause he wants to get in close and beat face.

We all started in 2nd Edition and sometimes I think that mentality carries over for him. He sees all the feats that a fighter can get and thinks they will win the day for him.



So, knowing this, my question is this.


Assuming he's going for a melee build, how should I build my 3 little specalists? I plan on making them focused specalists from Complete Mage and the Players Handbook 2 is also open for fun Abrupt Jaunt shenanigans.

If he goes for a long range build, will the three I have built for melee work as well?

Ideas? You guys have been really helpful, by the way. Thanks!

[candycorn]

Strongheart Halfling Martial Wizard evokers.

Metamagic school focus
Fell Drain
Improved initiative
Spellgifted (Evocation)

All three should have a 20 dexterity, and hummingbird familiar, for a +11 to initiative.

All three should each prepare 2 castings of Fell Drain Sonic Snap (and one casting of magic missile).

Now, here's how it works:

Round 1: If wizards win init: Move forward 30 feet, cast fell drain sonic snap. Fighter takes 1 damage per casting, gains 1 negative level. Fighter gets 3 negative levels, fighter dies.

Round 1: If fighter wins: say fighter charges, and kills 1 wizard. Remaining 2 split up and cast fell drain sonic snap. Fighter has 2 negative levels.

Round 2: Fighter charges, kills a second wizard. Remaining wizard casts fell drain sonic snap. Fighter dies, as he has 3 negative levels.

Unless the fighter can average killing more than 1 wizard a round, he cannot win at distances above 5 feet. With a spiked chain and initiative win, he has a chance at 5 feet, though not a good one. That said, chances of beating wizards with +11 to init on the initiative check is slim.

[SirFredgar]

...
So, knowing this, my question is this.


Assuming he's going for a melee build, how should I build my 3 little specalists? I plan on making them focused specalists from Complete Mage and the Players Handbook 2 is also open for fun Abrupt Jaunt shenanigans.

If he goes for a long range build, will the three I have built for melee work as well?

Ideas? You guys have been really helpful, by the way. Thanks!

Well, I don't want to start a tangential debate on it, but RAW wises it's arguable that abrupt jaunt stops ranged attacks.

Here are both sides of the argument.

It Does: Arrows have flight time in real life, therefore you must have time to jaunt before the arrow hits you, but after the attack is rolled.

It does not: RAW there is no such time. As in, he rolls his attack roll and if it hits, he hits.. if it misses he misses. In this interpretation the wizard can Jaunt before the attack roll, or after it, but not during... since there is no "during" on an attack. If he jaunted before the attack roll, the ranger could adjust and still shoot him. If he jaunted after the attack roll, he'd already been hit if the attack beats his ac.

I've seen this debated to high heaven, but It's really up to your GM. As a benchmark, though, there is a similar ability called Flicker iirc, that does almost the same thing as abrupt jaunt, but has specific wording added for ranged attacks to the effect that "you have a 50% miss chance".

I personally rule in favor of it does not stop ranged attackers from switching targets/reacquiring you, unless you are out of line of sight, because after all... why can't martial characters have nice things?

[candycorn]

Alternately:
Strongheart Halfling Wizards. Evocation Specialists. Martial Wizard.

Feats: Improved Initiative.
Bloodline of Fire
Precocious Apprentice
Sudden Still Spell
Sudden Maximize

Trait: Spellgifted (Evocation)
Trait: Aggressive

Flaw: Frail
Flaw: Vulnerable

Evocation Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#evokerVariants): Overcome Resistance, Energy Affinity

Now, each wizard will have a +11 to initiative. Each wizard will be able to cast a Kelgore's Firebolt for 30 damage (CL 5), reflex half. Each wizard will be able to cast a followup KFB for an average of 17.5 damage, reflex half.

Assume Fighter 3, max HP, with a 24 con (dragonborn mongrelfolk). 51 HP.

Round 1: Wizards win initiative, cast 3 sudden max KFB and move 30 feet away. 90 damage, 3 reflex saves for half. Assume all 3 are passed, for 45 damage.

Fighter kills one, lets say.

Round 2, wizards cast 2 KFB's. 17 and 18 damage, reflex half. Say both are passed. 17 more damage. Total damage sustained is 62 damage. Fighter at -11 hp.

Note: This assumes fighter kills 1 wizard a round, has MAX Hp, and the highest con reasonably possible at level 3. It also assumes the fighter passes every reflex save.

A fighter with max HP for level 1 and 3/4 HP for level 2 and 3, and 16 con will have 34 HP, and won't even survive the first volley, even if he passes all saves. If he's necropolitan? Even worse.

Even if he chugs a resist energy potion (fire), the Overcome Resistance will cut right through it.

[Rossebay]

This is facepalm worthy. Your Wizards could be naked, unspecialized, and have no feats and still curbstomp whatever "optimized" 3rd level Fighter your friend could possibly come up with.

I can't imagine any other outcome than the Wizards immediately winning as soon as they get to act.

Wild Cohort, a Greatbow, and a high dex and wisdom. Spend that gold on... Something. Masterwork stuff.

Your feats go to improving initiative, Dodge, Combat Focus. You can basically count one of the wizards as out if/when you hit him with your greatbow.

Your riding dog can attack another wizard. Either the Wizard dies, or he gets tripped. And dies.

That leaves 1 wizard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wild Cohort, a Greatbow, and a high dex and wisdom. Spend that gold on... Something. Masterwork stuff.

Your feats go to improving initiative, Dodge, Combat Focus. You can basically count one of the wizards as out if/when you hit him with your greatbow.

Your riding dog can attack another wizard. Either the Wizard dies, or he gets tripped. And dies.

That leaves 1 wizard.

I see your Improved Initiative and raise you Nerveskitter and Hummingbird familiar

Greatbow? It may be a Great Bow (yuk yuk), but it's a bad choice, because they can amp up their AC way faster than you can amp up attack. Conversely, the wizards can amp up their attack way more than you can amp up AC.

You don't want to play the 'riding dog' scenario. Then the Wizards sell off their spellbooks after memorizing their spells, and they now have a whole PACK of Magebred Warbred riding dogs...

[Daftendirekt]

I cant believe no one's brought up Abrupt Jaunt yet.


If all of your Wizards are Conjuration focused, then they get one of the best defenses in the game, Abrupt Jaunt. With Abrupt Jaunt in their pockets the Fighter literally can't ever hit any of them. You'll need a new offense tactic, but we're talking about Conjuration. I'm sure you'll think of something.

Yeaahhh...

[Rossebay]

Yeaahhh...

:[

Well, there goes fighter at all levels. Dang. I was just starting to like him. :P

[Mystify]

Well, I don't want to start a tangential debate on it, but RAW wises it's arguable that abrupt jaunt stops ranged attacks.

Here are both sides of the argument.

It Does: Arrows have flight time in real life, therefore you must have time to jaunt before the arrow hits you, but after the attack is rolled.

It does not: RAW there is no such time. As in, he rolls his attack roll and if it hits, he hits.. if it misses he misses. In this interpretation the wizard can Jaunt before the attack roll, or after it, but not during... since there is no "during" on an attack. If he jaunted before the attack roll, the ranger could adjust and still shoot him. If he jaunted after the attack roll, he'd already been hit if the attack beats his ac.

I've seen this debated to high heaven, but It's really up to your GM. As a benchmark, though, there is a similar ability called Flicker iirc, that does almost the same thing as abrupt jaunt, but has specific wording added for ranged attacks to the effect that "you have a 50% miss chance".

I personally rule in favor of it does not stop ranged attackers from switching targets/reacquiring you, unless you are out of line of sight, because after all... why can't martial characters have nice things?
Flicker is a 50% miss chance period, no matter what it is. I am quite fond of flicker, its the best thing about shadowcasters imo.

[mucco]

Wow, it's going to be really really hard to make a Ftr 3 that can win a battle against three wizards. (:smallbiggrin:)

Let's try, lol. We want a build that can stop wizards from casting defensively and can hit them even if they use Abrupt Jaunt. It needs to deal 7 damage, or 6 at a very minimum, to neutralize the wizards who are assumed to have 6 hp. I'm assuming that 10 min/lv prebuff are cast.

Human Fighter 3
HD: 3d10-3 (18 hp)
Initiative: +12 (potentially +17)
Skills: UMD +10, Spellcraft +3
Feats: Aberration Blood (1), Inhuman Reach (H), Ex. Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) (F1), Combat Reflexes (F2), Mage Slayer (3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/15 ft
Attack: spiked chain +8 (2d4+6)
Possessions: Potion of Sign (50 gp), Potion of Primal Instinct (750 gp), Mwk Spiked Chain with Wand Chamber (425 gp), Wand of Nerveskitter (750 gp), Mwk items of UMD (50 gp), Custom Magic Item of UMD +2 (400 gp), Psionic Tattoo of Precognition (50 gp), 225 gp to spend in skill check enhancers if possible, and maybe some AC
32 PB: 18/16/8/10/8/12

Tactics: upon rolling initiative, try to activate the wand of Nerveskitter, then try to win initiative. If in melee, kill one wizard. If no wizards are in range, move to have as many wizards as possible in reach for more than the Abrupt Jaunt distance. If a Standard Action is still available, kill one wizard.

The rationale is, if one wizard casts a spell the fighter is dead. So, no wizard must cast a spell. The 15 ft reach allows to be somewhat safe in the encounter starting in melee, and gives him a chance for the other two encounters, combined with the high Init. This is really exploiting WBL, which at 2700 vs. 12d4 x 10 is a lot. The fighter has three AoOs per round

Sorry to be the Devil's Advocate, just couldn't resist. :smalltongue:

[Mystify]

Wow, it's going to be really really hard to make a Ftr 3 that can win a battle against three wizards. (:smallbiggrin:)

Let's try, lol. We want a build that can stop wizards from casting defensively and can hit them even if they use Abrupt Jaunt. It needs to deal 7 damage, or 6 at a very minimum, to neutralize the wizards who are assumed to have 6 hp. I'm assuming that 10 min/lv prebuff are cast.

Human Fighter 3
HD: 3d10-3 (18 hp)
Initiative: +16 (potentially +21)
Skills: UMD +10, Spellcraft +3
Feats: Jotunbrud (1), Ex. Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) (H), Combat Reflexes (F1), Improved Initiative (F2), Mage Slayer (3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/30 ft
Attack: spiked chain +8 (2d4+6)
Possessions: Potion of Sign (50 gp), Potion of Primal Instinct (750 gp), Mwk Spiked Chain with Wand Chamber (425 gp), Wand of Nerveskitter (750 gp), Mwk items of UMD (50 gp), Custom Magic Item of UMD +2 (400 gp), Psionic Tattoo of Precognition (50 gp), 225 gp to spend in skill check enhancers if possible, and maybe some AC
32 PB: 18/16/8/10/8/12

Tactics: upon rolling initiative, try to activate the wand of Nerveskitter, then try to win initiative. If in melee, kill one wizard. If no wizards are in range, move to have as many wizards as possible in reach for more than the Abrupt Jaunt distance. If a Standard Action is still available, kill one wizard.

The rationale is, if one wizard casts a spell the fighter is dead. So, no wizard must cast a spell. The 30 ft reach (is this even correct?) allows to be safe in the encounter starting in melee, and gives him a chance for the other two encounters, combined with the high Init. This is really exploiting WBL, which at 2700 vs. 12d4 x 10 is a lot. The fighter has three AoOs per round

Sorry to be the Devil's Advocate, just couldn't resist. :smalltongue:
Weilding a larger reach weapon doesn't give you any more reach than a properly sized one.

[mucco]

Sorry, correction. The reach will be 20 ft. Note the feat Jotunbrud, that let the fighter consider himself as Large in this case.


A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Of course, with the Spiked Chain I can attack adjacent creatures as well.

[Mystify]

Sorry, correction. The reach will be 20 ft. Note the feat Jotunbrud, that let the fighter consider himself as Large in this case.



Of course, with the Spiked Chain I can attack adjacent creatures as well.
You are not a typical large creature. It specifies that.

[tyckspoon]

Sorry, correction. The reach will be 20 ft. Note the feat Jotunbrud, that let the fighter consider himself as Large in this case.



Whenever you receive a modifier based on your size
on an opposed roll (such as during grapple and bull rush
attempts), you are treated as Large if that’s advantageous to
you. You are also considered to be Large when determining
whether a monster’s special attacks based on size (such as
improved grab or swallow whole) affect you.

Jotunbrud absolutely does not say 'you're Large, except when you don't want to be.' It's very specific about what benefit it grants, and neither of the two things it affects have anything to do with weapon size (this is the main difference between Jotunbrud and Powerful Build, incidentally- Powerful Build lets you wield an upsized weapon. Still doesn't change your reach- you have to actually *be* Large for that.)

[mucco]

Oh, you're right. I went from memory, see what happens in this case, lol. So it appears I have a feat. I'll forgo Improved Init as well and get some reach.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

My Fighter
Using a 28 point buy
Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Human
Large
+1 LA

Hp: 29 (Max HP 1st level. 10+7, 5+7)
40ft Movespeed

30 str (16 base, +4 Half-minotaur, +2 dragonborn, +8 Large)
14 dex (18 base, -2 dragonborn, -2 Large)
24 con (18 base, +4 Large, +2 Half-minotaur)
8 int (10 base, -2 int half-minotaur)
11 wis
10 cha

Feats: Improved Initiative, point blank shot, Brutal Throw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Quickdraw, Flaw 1: TWF, Flaw 2: Rapid Shot

BAB +2

Full Attack +8/+8/+3
Harpoon(Thrown, Medium) 1d10+10 x2 crit

Nothing is blatantly sticking out to me that I did something wrong here but, if so please correct me and let me know.

I also didn't equip him other than the Harpoons.


This will not work, unless I am wrong you have two more feats then you should have.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The spin off thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229753&page=5). It started as me backing up my statement that a core only wizard deserved to be ranked near barbarian at level 1 in terms of power. I tossed out the level 3 challenge as an example, and ended up doing a same game test against Lonely Tylenol's Barbarian. He wanted Whirling Frenzy (and I didn't mind the expanded options), so we went for whatever OGL content was on d20srd.org

Note that I was the one that suggested you use Wild Cohort, as well.

I am nothing if not fair, even to my opponents. :smallwink:

Sorry, after the embarrassment I suffered in that match, I'm willing to stoop to any and all levels to save face. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway.

The ability of a single level 1 to take on a level 3 party has (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12617957&postcount=285) been (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12638391&postcount=290) well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12692732&postcount=292)-documented (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12584518&postcount=70). A party of level 1s taking on a single level 3, then, should be cake.

My vote is for the three Human Evokers, each loaded with Sonic Snap, Fell Drain, and Easy Metamagic (Fell Drain) or Arcane Thesis (Sonic Snap), plus Improved Initiative if flaws are allowed. Max your Dexterity (dextercorvia set the precedent for that being the way to go at level 1, as did I to a lesser extent, and I believe neither of us regrets it), and take Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves (also known as Nerveskitter) as a spell known and prebuff. Load the rest of your level 1 slots with Fell Drained Sonic Snaps. You now have a Close range, no-attack, no-save level drain effect, which he gets hit with three times before acting on his own initiative.

It's not particularly effective, mind, against anyone capable of escaping close range. Nor is it the most effective strategy, period. It is, however, among the safest (as there is no rolling involved whatsoever).

[Darth_Versity]

Is personally go for embarrassment. 3x nerveskitter, win initiative. 3x sleep, down boy. 3x cdg with scythes. Average dmg with 14 str, 36.

If only 1 wizard swings and the others ready an action to magic missle when he hits you can up it to average 43 damage. You could also use wraithstrike to make hitting easier.

[Coidzor]

Is personally go for embarrassment. 3x nerveskitter, win initiative. 3x sleep, down boy. 3x cdg with scythes. Average dmg with 14 str, 36.

If only 1 wizard swings and the others ready an action to magic missle when he hits you can up it to average 43 damage. You could also use wraithstrike to make hitting easier.

Wraithstrike is level 2, IIRC. Truestrike is level 1 though, and the +20 even in absence of any other bonuses would cover things significantly, especially given that anything one was sharing spells with, like a familiar or animal companion via UA ACF, would benefit from truestrike.

[Mystify]

Wraithstrike is level 2, IIRC. Truestrike is level 1 though, and the +20 even in absence of any other bonuses would cover things significantly, especially given that anything one was sharing spells with, like a familiar or animal companion via UA ACF, would benefit from truestrike.

but true strike takes a standard action to cast, so you end up a turn behind.

[Coidzor]

but true strike takes a standard action to cast, so you end up a turn behind.

If he's asleep and you're somehow worried about coup de grace missing, you've generally got longer than the cdg round before it wakes.

[mucco]

You need to land the Sleep first, which is not trivial. Especially in the third combat scenario, where all three wizards are in melee range. Take my fighter: they are unlikely to win initiative. Even if they do, casting Sleep requires 1 round of concentration. During that round, the fighter will move up to you and you'll provoke an AoO by still being in the middle of casting. The fighter will then be able to kill the wiz easily.

You could pull this off with Color Spray. That, however, leaves the problem of how to actually kill the fighter (probably x-bows will suffice, but it's not a sure bet).

Take away Dragon Magazine, and it becomes actually challenging to win initiative.

[SirFredgar]

If he's asleep and you're somehow worried about coup de grace missing, you've generally got longer than the cdg round before it wakes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't miss a Coup De Grace. It automatically hits as long as you can spend a full round action while adjacent to your helpless foe.

[The Glyphstone]

If we're abusing Template stacking for the Fighter,why not a Warforged Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate Dustform Incarnate (etc.) Fighter?

[Chronos]

Say, did we ever establish a point-buy value for stats?

And dextercorvia, on thinking about it, my trio might even be able to win even in the closest-range combat. Each of my guys probably has something like a +5 modifier to Concentration, between skill ranks and maybe being able to squeeze Con up to 12 or so, which makes hitting DC 16 for casting defensively a 50-50 proposition. Then, even if that fails, they've got an AC of 16, and you've got, what, about a +8 to hit (depending on exact point buy)? So you'd still have over a 1 in 3 chance of missing. On average, you'd only be able to kill one of the three wizards, and the other two would be enough to drain you to death, since your LA reduces you to only two HD.

Oh, and TheDarkSaint, if you really want to rub it in, let your buddy look over the character sheets for your wizards, and give him a link to this thread, before he decides on his build. The only reason our builds are getting so convoluted is that we're trying to take into account every possibility of what he might do. If he just goes with a standard melee monster, then something simple like Color Spray would work just fine, but that would mean that all of our arcane machinations are going to waste.

Quoth OracleOfWuffing:
Shouldn't you have a Second Level Fire Spell prepared if you're going to go Fiery Burst? Oh, right, I forgot. Stick a Scorching Ray in there, too, I guess. Or any other fire spell... It doesn't really matter, since the plan doesn't involve actually casting it.

[Crasical]

Wizard 1: I cast Shield
Wizard 2: I cast Mage Armor on Wizard 1
Wizard 3: I cast Enlarge Person on Wizard 1

Watch as Wizard 1 beats the Fighter who can't hit him with the AC of 23, at his own game. Probably with an Attack of Opportunity, due to reach from Large Size.


How are you getting 23? 10 + 4 armor + 4 shield + 4 Dex -2 Enlarge Person = 20..?
Also, if the wizards do that first turn, then the fighter turns and murders the two unbuffed wizards. As stylish as 'beating the fighter at his own game' is, it's much safer to just blast him instead.
Aboleth mucus or alchemist fire. Splat. The buffed wizard is choking on death/ablaze because the fighter targeted his touch AC.

[Darth_Versity]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't miss a Coup De Grace. It automatically hits as long as you can spend a full round action while adjacent to your helpless foe.

Just checked the rules compendium and your right. For some reason i thought a CDG still needed an attack but was an auto critical.


You need to land the Sleep first, which is not trivial. Especially in the third combat scenario, where all three wizards are in melee range. Take my fighter: they are unlikely to win initiative. Even if they do, casting Sleep requires 1 round of concentration. During that round, the fighter will move up to you and you'll provoke an AoO by still being in the middle of casting. The fighter will then be able to kill the wiz easily.

14 Dex, Improved Initiative, Hummingbird Familiar and Nerveskitter is a +13 to initiative. That already beats your fighters +12 and they get 3 rolls. one of the rules was no magic items so your fighter cant have a wand (or the potions or tatoo)

On average 2 wizards should go first and your history. With the final fight where they start within 5ft, the wizards use abrupt jaunt to reach the edge of your reach and then do a withdraw action. You may now only kill one wizard and next round the others take you down.

Im sorry, but no matter what way you swing it a single fighter cannot beat 3 wizards purely on action economy.

[Flickerdart]

Flat-footed combatants can't make attacks of opportunity without Combat Reflexes, so unless the Fighter has that, you can just zap him and then walk away with a regular move action.

[Treblain]

Hummingbird Familiar

the wizards use abrupt jaunt

ERROR! ERROR! DOES NOT COMPUTE! :smallfurious:

* * *

On another note, this is just my opinion, but I'd like to see this done with first level spells and no shenanigans, because it's really unnecessary. Yeah, Elven Generalists can get 9th level spells at level 1, but that's not what this challenge is for. The same goes even for getting second level spells via Precocious Apprentice. Considering that spells are basically a wizard's only class feature, it seems pointless to test the power of 1st level wizards based on them having the abilities of a 3rd level wizard.

[Lonely Tylenol]

ERROR! ERROR! DOES NOT COMPUTE! :smallfurious:

* * *

On another note, this is just my opinion, but I'd like to see this done with first level spells and no shenanigans, because it's really unnecessary. Yeah, Elven Generalists can get 9th level spells at level 1, but that's not what this challenge is for. The same goes even for getting second level spells via Precocious Apprentice. Considering that spells are basically a wizard's only class feature, it seems pointless to test the power of 1st level wizards based on them having the abilities of a 3rd level wizard.

What are your thoughts on metamagic abuse on cantrips (Arcane Thesis'd EDIT: Metamagic School Focus'd Fell Drained Sonic Snap)? It uses 0-level spells in 1st-level spell slots, both of which every Wizard 1 has. :smallwink:

[tyckspoon]

What are your thoughts on metamagic abuse on cantrips (Arcane Thesis'd Fell Drained Sonic Snap)? It uses 0-level spells in 1st-level spell slots, both of which every Wizard 1 has. :smallwink:

Minor quibble: You don't qualify for Arcane Thesis at first level, it has an 8 skill rank requirement (as does Practical Metamagic, and Easy Metamagic is Dragon material.) Metamagic School Focus will work, tho.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Minor quibble: You don't qualify for Arcane Thesis at first level, it has an 8 skill rank requirement (as does Practical Metamagic, and Easy Metamagic is Dragon material.) Metamagic School Focus will work, tho.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, it's 8:40 AM and I have not yet laid my head down to sleep. I will make the correction now. :smallsmile:

[dextercorvia]

Say, did we ever establish a point-buy value for stats?

And dextercorvia, on thinking about it, my trio might even be able to win even in the closest-range combat. Each of my guys probably has something like a +5 modifier to Concentration, between skill ranks and maybe being able to squeeze Con up to 12 or so, which makes hitting DC 16 for casting defensively a 50-50 proposition. Then, even if that fails, they've got an AC of 16, and you've got, what, about a +8 to hit (depending on exact point buy)? So you'd still have over a 1 in 3 chance of missing. On average, you'd only be able to kill one of the three wizards, and the other two would be enough to drain you to death, since your LA reduces you to only two HD.

Yeah, I'm recalculating still based on probably auto losing the 30' combat. I'll let you know when I think I have a fighter that can beat your 3. Weekend is crazy, so it might be Monday before I can put real thought into it. If I can come up with something, and you want to, we could fight it out.

[Treblain]

What are your thoughts on metamagic abuse on cantrips (Arcane Thesis'd Fell Drained Sonic Snap)? It uses 0-level spells in 1st-level spell slots, both of which every Wizard 1 has. :smallwink:

Eh, I guess. Though I don't think that's the best way to go. Fell Drain is only a guaranteed kill if it hits three times. There are more efficient ways for the wizards to use their first three standard actions, since if one or more gets killed before they can go, it's all wasted. Plus any immunity to sonic or level drain means the wizards have wasted several feats and one of their two 1st level spell slots. The resources required also cut into the vaunted "wizards always win initiative" boast.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Eh, I guess. Though I don't think that's the best way to go. Fell Drain is only a guaranteed kill if it hits three times. There are more efficient ways for the wizards to use their first three standard actions. Plus any immunity to sonic or level drain means the wizards have wasted several feats and one of their two 1st level spell slots. The resources required also cut into the vaunted "wizards always win initiative" boast.

Well, it's going to hit three times if given three opportunities, because Sonic Snap does not have an attack roll or a save to prevent damage (the save only prevents the deafened condition that accompanies it). Only spell resistance and immunities stop it from connecting, and if the fighter has spell resistance or sonic immunities at level three, then I honestly don't know what to say, because I would never think somebody to actually optimize against this trick.

(There's a case to be made that it does sap feat resources, of course, which makes Improved Initiative a strictly "flaws-only" ordeal. There's no reason a specialist evoker couldn't prepare two Sonic Snaps and a Nerveskitter, however. :smallbiggrin:)

EDIT in response to your edit: There's nothing that says each wizard can't prepare more than one fell drained Sonic Snap. An evoker with 12 INT gets three spell slots (one of which must be evocation, and can thus be Sonic Snap), as does a transmuter with 12 INT (one of which must be transmutation, which can be Nerveskitter, using the above setup).

As such, assuming the fighter wins initiative and kills one wizard each round without fail, you have:

Round 1: Fighter kills Wizard #Straw. Wizard #Wood and Wizard #Brick cast Fell Drained Sonic Snap, reducing Fighter to level 1 (if level 3 by class levels) or to dead (if level 3 by templates).
Round 2: Fighter kills Wizard #Wood. Wizard #Brick casts Fell Drained Sonic Snap, reducing fighter to dead.
:smallwink:

[tyckspoon]

Well, it's going to hit three times if given three opportunities, because Sonic Snap does not have an attack roll or a save to prevent damage (the save only prevents the deafened condition that accompanies it). Only spell resistance and immunities stop it from connecting, and if the fighter has spell resistance or sonic immunities at level three, then I honestly don't know what to say, because I would never think somebody to actually optimize against this trick.


Considering Sonic Snap does fairly meaningless damage on its own, you don't need to optimize against it.. but you might want to optimize against negative levels, because using Fell Drain is one of the more infamous low-level killers, and Sonic Snap is just a really reliable way of delivering it. And that's relatively easy to do; the Fighter can be a Warforged, for example, which is also a generally good Fighter race anyway (actually, unless it's been explicitly ruled out, you should probably assume the Fighter is Warforged.)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Considering Sonic Snap does fairly meaningless damage on its own, you don't need to optimize against it.. but you might want to optimize against negative levels, because using Fell Drain is one of the more infamous low-level killers, and Sonic Snap is just a really reliable way of delivering it. And that's relatively easy to do; the Fighter can be a Warforged, for example, which is also a generally good Fighter race anyway (actually, unless it's been explicitly ruled out, you should probably assume the Fighter is Warforged.)

Fair enough.

Damn you, Eberron!

Is there any way to circumvent immunity to negative levels at level 1?

[Darth_Versity]

ERROR! ERROR! DOES NOT COMPUTE! :smallfurious:


Obtain familiar feat. :smallcool:

[SirFredgar]

Fair enough.

Damn you, Eberron!

Is there any way to circumvent immunity to negative levels at level 1?

Living Constructs are immune to negative levels? I'm afb right now, but I can't beleive I completely missed that. I thought they only became immune to negative levels after taking Warforge Juggernaut.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Living Constructs are immune to negative levels? I'm afb right now, but I can't beleive I completely missed that. I thought they only became immune to negative levels after taking Warforge Juggernaut.

I'm actually in the process of looking this up right now, as I confess that I know very little about Warforged immunites (or Warforged in general). I meant "fair enough" in regards to optimizing against level drain in a low-level competition in general, as it's a very common vulnerability.

EDIT: Removed edit, attached to new post (a response was made before I finished editing).

[B-Unit]

Have you considered having the three wizards prepare spells for the day and then sell off their spellbooks to buy a small army of riding dogs?

[SirFredgar]

I'm actually in the process of looking this up right now, as I confess that I know very little about Warforged immunites (or Warforged in general). I meant "fair enough" in regards to optimizing against level drain in a low-level competition in general, as it's a very common vulnerability.

Aye, I've taken advantage of it many times myself. And about the living contrusts, I drudged this up on the net, not sure how accurate it is.



...
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.
...

EDIT: Swordsaged. But yeah, I can't beleive I missed that. Warforged are better then I took them for. I'll definitely remember this in the future.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Aye, I've taken advantage of it many times myself. And about the living contrusts, I drudged this up on the net, not sure how accurate it is.

Found it.

From Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 23:


Features: As a living construct, a warforged has the following features.

...

- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that caused the sickened condition, and energy drain.

[Zombulian]

At least 1 of them needs Precocious Apprentice and Collegiate Wizard. Tons of 1st lvl spells and a 2nd lvl spell at lvl 1! Definitely. Grease is awesome, and remember, unless he has 5 ranks in Balance, if he is on grease he is flatfooted. Mix that with a scorching ray for INSTA-HIT.

[dextercorvia]

Obtain familiar feat. :smallcool:

Do you have CL3?

[dextercorvia]

At least 1 of them needs Precocious Apprentice and Collegiate Wizard. Tons of 1st lvl spells and a 2nd lvl spell at lvl 1! Definitely. Grease is awesome, and remember, unless he has 5 ranks in Balance, if he is on grease he is flatfooted. Mix that with a scorching ray for INSTA-HIT.

Collegiate Wizard will not grant you any extra spells per day, which is the real limiter here, since you already get 4-8 spells known, and can prepare only 2-5.

[Zombulian]

Collegiate Wizard will not grant you any extra spells per day, which is the real limiter here, since you already get 4-8 spells known, and can prepare only 2-5.

Oop, I'm dumb. Glad you told me that :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

...Yup. Warforged are immune to energy drain. As well as poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and sickening. And their Con bonus and lack of LA means that they're likely to survive the blasting my wizards had as a backup plan. Which means that it's back to the drawing board.

They are not immune to stunning, and they have a Wis penalty, so Color Spray is still a viable option. But I can't easily fit that into my wizard build, since my guys are focused specialists, and hence can only have spells of two schools (three of their specialty, one from another), and I'm already using sonic snap (evo) and swift expeditious retreat (trans).

They're also less vulnerable to disarming tactics, since they have a natural weapon (slam). It's not as much damage as a real weapon, but with a reasonable Strength score, it'd probably still be enough.

[Gavinfoxx]

The ability of a single level 1 to take on a level 3 party has (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12617957&postcount=285) been (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12638391&postcount=290) well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12692732&postcount=292)-documented (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12584518&postcount=70). A party of level 1s taking on a single level 3, then, should be cake.


FINALLY! Someone linked to this! OP, read that ENTIRE thread where the actual actions took place!!

Its this thread, if you are curious:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12638371

That should help you with strategy and tactics. Also, you miiight want to have the fighter guy look at that thread.. ;) ;)

[SirFredgar]

...Yup. Warforged are immune to energy drain. As well as poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and sickening. And their Con bonus and lack of LA means that they're likely to survive the blasting my wizards had as a backup plan. Which means that it's back to the drawing board.

They are not immune to stunning, and they have a Wis penalty, so Color Spray is still a viable option. But I can't easily fit that into my wizard build, since my guys are focused specialists, and hence can only have spells of two schools (three of their specialty, one from another), and I'm already using sonic snap (evo) and swift expeditious retreat (trans).

They're also less vulnerable to disarming tactics, since they have a natural weapon (slam). It's not as much damage as a real weapon, but with a reasonable Strength score, it'd probably still be enough.

Yeah, that race pick alone does present some obsticles. And why are we using focused specialist? Can't we go something like Elven Generalist or plain old specialist for more a variety of spells? Yeah, that's giving up 2 casts per wizard (or, well, they don't -all- need to be focused specialist, but some can), but allowing them to ultize at least three schools.

Not sure what the point-buy is on this, but if you can manage an 18 int + grey elf (or sun elf, I guess) that gets you a 20 int. 2 bonus first levels spells, with the baseline 1, oh... and elven generalist, that should be 4 spells/day with no school limits.

[Lonely Tylenol]

FINALLY! Someone linked to this! OP, read that ENTIRE thread where the actual actions took place!!

Its this thread, if you are curious:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12638371

That should help you with strategy and tactics. Also, you miiight want to have the fighter guy look at that thread.. ;) ;)

Well, let's give credit where credit is due here, as I'm not the first person to reference the Power Challenge:


This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228852), especially the end, is of interest. I've probably been ninja'd.


You do know that it is possible for 1 mage to have a solid chance to solo 3 level 3 fighters, correct? If properly built? There was a thread where one mage solod a party of level 3 characters...


I dunno where it went off to, but somewhere (either on BG or here) I saw a single level 1 unspecialized wizard take on an entire party of 3-4th level characters, and he won rather handily, but he was rather tactically minded, and their saving throws sucked rather hard.

Have the entire party of wizards max their spells known, then sell their spellbooks and buy higher level scrolls of 5th and 6th level spells to cast on his arse.


Class Power by Level, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228852&page=10) and its spin-off thread had something similar, I believe I might have linked to it earlier, but I disremember.

If that's what you're thinking of, he traded his familiar for an animal companion at level one using the UA variant found on the SRD and got the Riding Dog, king of first level animal companions.

Double the fun with wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), but then you have to worry about him flying and your feat investment not paying off.

Nor am I the first contestant to reference the challenge (dextercorvia is also the first to link to the challenge thread directly):


The spin off thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229753&page=5). It started as me backing up my statement that a core only wizard deserved to be ranked near barbarian at level 1 in terms of power. I tossed out the level 3 challenge as an example, and ended up doing a same game test against Lonely Tylenol's Barbarian. He wanted Whirling Frenzy (and I didn't mind the expanded options), so we went for whatever OGL content was on d20srd.org

I'm hoping TheMeMan is up for running a full splat challenge.

It's worth a read, though, as it shows exactly what dextercorvia, Phaederkiel (who hasn't yet weighed in on this thread) and I had to do in order to beat the crippling deficit in action economy (and what you can expect your opponent to have to do as well, although he gets all the levels we didn't).

[Chronos]

Not sure what the point-buy is on this, but if you can manage an 18 int + grey elf (or sun elf, I guess) that gets you a 20 int. 2 bonus first levels spells, with the baseline 1, oh... and elven generalist, that should be 4 spells/day with no school limits. Point buy spent on Int is point buy not spent on Dex, and if we're not using effects with saves, any Int above 12 but below 20 is wasted. And that also means we can't be Strongheart Halflings, which means loss of a feat and a point of AC. Then again, it might be a worthwhile choice for someone using a lot of effects with saving throws, which I think might end up being necessary against a Warforged.

Another option to consider: Spending a feat on Arcane Disciple for the Plant domain, giving us access to Entangle. Even on a successful save, that'd mean that he can't charge, and on a failed save, he'll either be reduced to archery (with penalties from being entangled), or spend one or more rounds breaking free so he can move. If our wizards have Expeditious Retreat, they might be able to run around the edges of the entangled area long enough to prevent melee for the entire duration of the contest.

To review the options at our disposal:
Fell drained cantrip: Requires two feats and a 1st level conjuration or (preferably) evocation slot. Three (or less, in the case of LA) will kill anything but a warforged or necropolitan, with no save and at most an easy attack roll. Drawbacks are short range, and necropolitans and warforged are completely immune.

Fiery Burst: Requires two feats. 2d6 damage, reflex half, at 30' range, usable every round. Will eventually kill almost anything, but will take a while for a no-LA opponent, especially one with good Con.

Grease: Requires a single 1st-level conjuration slot. Reflex save to make the fighter waste an action (possibly two), and prevents charging for one round regardless of the save. Nothing but fliers immune. Doesn't actually get the fighter any closer to dead.

Color spray: Requires a single 1st-level illusion slot. Will save to stun the fighter for 2-5 rounds, plenty of time for blasting to work. No effect at all on a successful save, and necropolitans are immune.

Entangle: Requires a 1st-level transmutation slot, plus a feat. Stops charging for the duration of the fight, and makes it hard for the fighter to close. A failed save makes it even harder, and imposes significant penalties. Lasts for plenty of time, but the save is Wis-based. Doesn't actually get the fighter any closer to dead.

Daze: Requires only a single 0th-level enchantment slot. Denies action for a round on a failed Will save. Does nothing on a save, and only trades actions, but might be a good choice for filling up cantrip slots (we're not likely to find anything better to use them on).

Nerveskitter: Requires a 1st-level transmutation slot. Along with other options, pretty much guarantees winning initiative, but we've got an excellent chance even without it, if we pump Dex. Uses up immediate action, so we can't use Swift Expeditious Retreat on the first round.

Swift Expeditious Retreat: Uses a 1st-level transmutation slot. Could be used to close to Close range on first round of 60' fight, or to open range in other fights. Lasts only one round.

Expeditious Retreat: Uses a 1st-level transmutation slot. Lasts longer, but takes a standard action to cast.

[Chronos]

Actually, here's a question: Will the wizards be allowed to prepare different sets of spells for the battles at different ranges? One of the wizard's key advantages, after all, is the ability to change their spell loadout for different circumstances. And that'd give us a lot of freedom in our preparations (Entangle, for instance, will be amazing in the long-range battles, but close to useless in the 5' one).

[dextercorvia]

Actually, here's a question: Will the wizards be allowed to prepare different sets of spells for the battles at different ranges? One of the wizard's key advantages, after all, is the ability to change their spell loadout for different circumstances. And that'd give us a lot of freedom in our preparations (Entangle, for instance, will be amazing in the long-range battles, but close to useless in the 5' one).

I'd allow it. Does the fighter get no magic items at all, or was that just the 1st level party?

[tyckspoon]

Daze: Requires only a single 0th-level enchantment slot. Denies action for a round on a failed Will save. Does nothing on a save, and only trades actions, but might be a good choice for filling up cantrip slots (we're not likely to find anything better to use them on).


Note that 'trading actions' is perfectly fine for the Wizard side, because they have inherent action advantage in numbers. The strategy I was mulling over myself actually centered on Daze- basically, assume at least 1 of the Wizards will win initiative. That Wizard casts a spell to deny the Fighter; Obscuring Mist, Grease, Entangle would work too- anything that reliably prevents the Fighter from making contact and insta-gibbing a Wizard. The Wizard(s) that lost initiative then Ready/Delay, giving up their first turns to ensure that they go before the Fighter next round.

Now that all 3 Wizards are acting before the Fighter, they just spam Daze. At 3 saves/round, the Fighter is quite likely to fail a save. At worst, the Wizards all have to do this and they just trade a turn with the Fighter. At best, the Fighter fails the first save and you have 2 Wizards who have free turns to burn him with a spell, ping him with a crossbow, or otherwise damage or further hamper him. (Color Spray would also work and provide more turns for the Wizards, but requires using precious 1st level slots.)

That was before I remembered that the Fighter really ought to be a Warforged, tho, because Daze is Humanoids-only.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Note that 'trading actions' is perfectly fine for the Wizard side, because they have inherent action advantage in numbers. The strategy I was mulling over myself actually centered on Daze- basically, assume at least 1 of the Wizards will win initiative. That Wizard casts a spell to deny the Fighter; Obscuring Mist, Grease, Entangle would work too- anything that reliably prevents the Fighter from making contact and insta-gibbing a Wizard. The Wizard(s) that lost initiative then Ready/Delay, giving up their first turns to ensure that they go before the Fighter next round.

Now that all 3 Wizards are acting before the Fighter, they just spam Daze. At 3 saves/round, the Fighter is quite likely to fail a save. At worst, the Wizards all have to do this and they just trade a turn with the Fighter. At best, the Fighter fails the first save and you have 2 Wizards who have free turns to burn him with a spell, ping him with a crossbow, or otherwise damage or further hamper him. (Color Spray would also work and provide more turns for the Wizards, but requires using precious 1st level slots.)

That was before I remembered that the Fighter really ought to be a Warforged, tho, because Daze is Humanoids-only.

I would nevertheless fill all my cantrip slots with Daze, because this is precisely what you should be doing if you have the opportunity. This works on the same fundamentals as trading set pieces in chess: if you have more pieces than your opponent (and those pieces are of equal or similar quality; no "queen vs. army of pawns" scenario), then barring a critical change in position, an even trade always favors you. In this case, you don't risk a game-changing position move by trading actions, but instead expends resources; however, you have no better use for those resources (Resistance?), so you might as well expend them in whatever way you can.

As for those of you on the other end of the action economy (the level 3 fighter, for those trying to build one to beat the wizard), this is, as far as I'm concerned, the baseline for what you need to beat. Any three first-level wizards can prepare and cast Daze three times each, so you need to be prepared either to beat a Daze lock (by being immune or just beating the will saves consistently, somehow) or to eat the loss in action economy (by being immune to everything that is much worse).

Looks like it's definitely Warforged for most then.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not fill your level 0 spells with Caltrops, or Launch Item, and get a bunch of Orc Shotputs (or whatever; spherical things of lead just under the maximum weight for Launch Item, maybe Large sized or something) to use with Launch Item?

[Flickerdart]

You wouldn't need to delay - regardless of the Fighter's position in the round, the turn order will always be: ...Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Fighter, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Fighter...

[OracleofWuffing]

Hm... Just trying to see if there's anything else that's good...

Net of Shadows, Illusion 1, target gains concealment but can't see farther than 5 feet for 1d6 rounds, Will negates.

Backbiter, Necro 1, target hits himself instead of a Wizard, Will negates. Is not Mind-Affecting. Chain-cast this and let him take himself out?

Fist of Stone, Trans 1, Personal, 1 minute, +6 Str for most of the important things, slam attackn. Don't normally think this is any good, but you might want to drop it into the beat-em-up Wizard concept.

Raging Flame, Trans 1, 1 minute, everyone's Fiery Bursts do 2 more damage. Pathetic, yeah, but 4/6 more damage per round.

Slide, Trans 1, move someone 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity, make reference to D&D 4e. Again, pathetic, won't help kill the fighter, but if lockdown's up and you can get one Wizard out of range, there you go.

Weaponshift, Trans 1, Touch, 1 minute. I have no idea how you would be able to pull it off, but if you could touch the Fighter's obligatory reach weapon, it is now a light shield. Object-Fortitiude negates.

[mikau013]

You'd probably want at least one wizard with a blind, deaf familiar so you can force a surprise round

[Randomguy]

Don't make them all focused specialists. You lose too much variety.

Get one focused specialist conjurer (with abrupt jaunt), one regular specialist conjurer (with abrupt jaunt) and one enchanter (hummingbird familiar). Alternatively, swap the second conjurer with a transmuter. (This would make the close up fight easier.)

The focused specialist conjurer (or transmuter) will hit the enchanter with nerveskitter.
The enchanter will use colour spray first turn. He'll be optimised for a high illusion DC. Probably gnome, or whisper gnome if they still get the bonus to illusion spells, with spell focus and greater spell focus (illusion). Next round he'll use power word pain.
If he's still standing, the focused specialist conjurer has grease. If he's not, lesser acid orb or fiery burst him to death while he's unconscious.

In melee, the focused specialist conjurer uses fist of stone at first and casts blades of fire every round he attacks. The others buff him with mighty wallop, enlarge person and maybe bulls strength if you want to take precocious apprentice. They also debuff with ray of enfeeblement and backbitter.


Isn't it possible to dual specialise with illusion and enchantment? I think you need to be a changeling. Do that for the enchanter, if you can manage it.

[Rubik]

Isn't it possible to dual specialise with illusion and enchantment? I think you need to be a changeling. Do that for the enchanter, if you can manage it.It is possible, though it's illusion and transmutation. It's an ACF in Races of Eberron. However, you still get only one bonus slot per level, but you can split them between your two schools.

However, it's a good way to enter focused specialist (since you get to focus specialize in TWO schools), as well as the master specialist PrC.

[Chronos]

I still don't think Abrupt Jaunt is the way to go, for two reasons. First, that locks those wizards into Conjuration. While that's ordinarily a great school to specialize in, in the context of an arena battle like this, I'm not sure any Conjuration spells are really worth bothering with: The best you can get out of it is a Grease that lasts only one round (unless you pump more resources into it to make it last longer). Second, I really think that the most important moment in this battle is going to be in the first round, and Abrupt Jaunt won't help anyone who loses initiative. Better to have a hummingbird for more initiative.

On thinking about the fighter side some more, it seems to me that Warforged and Necropolitan between them trump all other race choices the fighter could take: Anything another race could do, one of those two could do better. The fighter might take something winged, but even there, there's no reason not to make it a winged warforged. So we might as well forget entirely about anything that both of those races are immune to, notably Daze and Fell Drain.

For the 5' fight, the fighter can get good results with Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer, 14+ dex, and any reach weapon setup without a donut hole (either Spiked Chain, or a conventional reach weapon plus either armor spikes or unarmed, or Deformity: Tall). The wizards' best response to this would be to try to tumble away before casting, but I can't see any practical way to get the wizards' tumble checks higher than +7 (or +9 if a masterwork tool is allowed), making DC 15 an uncertain proposition. They'll try it, of course (they should be able to afford the skill points), but that fight might just have to be written off.

For the 30' and 60' fights, the wizards have a new problem: Short range spells at CL 1 mean 25'. Without some CL boosting, the wizards will have to move before they cast for the 30' fight, meaning they'll have to end their turn relatively close to the fighter. The 60' fight is even worse: Without either a CL booster or a speed booster, they won't even be able to get into range for a short-range spell at all. Are there any LA 0 races with a speed greater than 30'? If not, then we need either Swift Expeditious Retreat, or a CL booster for every short-range spell we intend to use.

[Rubik]

Also, did I miss it, or did someone suggest out-doing a Great Cleave fighter? I bet the fighter guy will just bet that he could kill all three in one round if he wanted.

I'd suggest buying some animals to put in front, at the very least. Attack mules are cheap (8 gp) and they're not horrible combatants if it comes down to it.

[Coidzor]

Otherwise they can get 6 Riding Dogs if they're willing to axe the familiar and spend a feat. Warbeast them and it'll be like having 6 level 3 monk pets.

[Randomguy]

I still don't think Abrupt Jaunt is the way to go, for two reasons. First, that locks those wizards into Conjuration. While that's ordinarily a great school to specialize in, in the context of an arena battle like this, I'm not sure any Conjuration spells are really worth bothering with: The best you can get out of it is a Grease that lasts only one round (unless you pump more resources into it to make it last longer). Second, I really think that the most important moment in this battle is going to be in the first round, and Abrupt Jaunt won't help anyone who loses initiative. Better to have a hummingbird for more initiative.

Let's see: Lesser orb of x for damage, blades of fire for melee, wall of smoke as a debuff and mage armour as an optional defence, grease for battlefield control, and summon monster if you use precocious apprentice for invisibility. It's a must have for at least one of the three wizards, since it doesn't matter if the fighter wins initiative if his attacks miss automatically.
Also, as long as one wizard has a hummingbird, then that wizard can hit the fighter with a save or lose first round.

The fighter starting too far away isn't really a problem: If the fighter's an archer, it's safe to move forwards. If the fighter's going melee, the wizards can just ready actions to attack when he comes in range.

[Treblain]

Anyone who is suggesting Will Save spells should consider that the fighter can take Endurance and Steadfast Determination to use his CON mod for his Will. If there's a point buy, that also lets him dump WIS as well as INT and CHA.

Abrupt Jaunt is not good for this contest, unless it's for only one of the three wizards. It takes away your familiar (worth +4 initiative if Dragon material is okay), and is an immediate action, which conflicts with Nerveskitter and all swift action spells, in addition to being unusable when flat-footed. Minus hummingbird and Nerveskitter (unless one of the other wizards casts it on you), you may lose initiative, and you're flat-footed until you act.

[Chronos]

Y'know, I think the fighter just might be able to pull it off. I'm thinking something like this:

Warforged barbarian 1/fighter 2
Dex at least 14, a bit in Str, and most in Con
2 flaws, levels 1 and 3, and two fighter levels, for a total of six feats:
Combat Reflexes
Willing Deformity
Deformity: Tall
Mage Slayer
Shape Soulmeld: Flame Cincture
<one other feat>
Wield a reach weapon and armor spikes, with a bow and a bunch of arrows available if needed.

As a warforged, he's immune to energy drain, Sleep, Daze, and Charm Person. Flame Cincture makes him nearly immune to fiery burst (it'd take a failed save and a near-max roll to do any damage at all to him, and then only 1 or 2). Color Spray has a range of only 15 feet, which is inside his reach: If you try it, he'll kill you on the AoO. Grease or Entangle could slow him down a bit, but you still need to have some way of killing him. He has enough HP to withstand level 1 damaging spells. I'm not sure what's left, and I even have one feat to spare. I'm thinking either Healing Devotion, to make him a little more blast-resistant, or another Shape Soulmeld on Spellward Shirt, for 5 SR.

[Seerow]

Otherwise they can get 6 Riding Dogs if they're willing to axe the familiar and spend a feat. Warbeast them and it'll be like having 6 level 3 monk pets.

This does seem like the easiest way to win, but probably ignores the point of the challenge.

[Coidzor]

This does seem like the easiest way to win, but probably ignores the point of the challenge.

I'd peg it about even with the idea of getting flight and going pew-pew for a few minutes.

[DefKab]

What about the mages selling their books for wardogs? Has that been suggested?
They make INT their dump stat, beef up dex for crossbows, and have the wardogs go toe-to-toe with the fighter while they stickle him with bolts?
It's not even a wizard vs. fighter fight. It's a Not-wizard beating the fighter.

Should show him how lame fighters are.

[Randomguy]

Y'know, I think the fighter just might be able to pull it off. I'm thinking something like this:

Warforged barbarian 1/fighter 2
Dex at least 14, a bit in Str, and most in Con
2 flaws, levels 1 and 3, and two fighter levels, for a total of six feats:
Combat Reflexes
Willing Deformity
Deformity: Tall
Mage Slayer
Shape Soulmeld: Flame Cincture
<one other feat>
Wield a reach weapon and armor spikes, with a bow and a bunch of arrows available if needed.

<snip>

Acidic splatter is a decent alternative to fiery burst, and he's not protected against that. There's also power word pain for a guaranteed tie or win, and grease can make him lose his weapon long enough to get up close and colour spray him.

Swapping spellbooks for war dogs isn't a good idea: it'll provoke him into using his much higher wealth by level to get even more pets than you have.

[olentu]

Acidic splatter is a decent alternative to fiery burst, and he's not protected against that. There's also power word pain for a guaranteed tie or win, and grease can make him lose his weapon long enough to get up close and colour spray him.

Swapping spellbooks for war dogs isn't a good idea: it'll provoke him into using his much higher wealth by level to get even more pets than you have.

3rd level wealth is only 2700gp as I recall.

[Seerow]

3rd level wealth is only 2700gp as I recall.

A Guard Dog is only 25gp. I don't know what the warbeast/magebred templates cost to add, but 2700gp nets you 108 normal guard dogs.

[Coidzor]

3rd level wealth is only 2700gp as I recall.

warbeasts are cheap though. Mules are cheaper.

[olentu]

A Guard Dog is only 25gp. I don't know what the warbeast/magebred templates cost to add, but 2700gp nets you 108 normal guard dogs.

True but a 23 page spellbook gets you 1150 gp.

Edit: I suppose I should note that this goes up assuming non core cantrips and having more than 12 int.

[Coidzor]

True but a 23 page spellbook gets you 1150 gp.

Edit: I suppose I should note that this goes up assuming non core cantrips and having more than 12 int.

Also, collegiate wizard too.

[DefKab]

Acidic splatter is a decent alternative to fiery burst, and he's not protected against that. There's also power word pain for a guaranteed tie or win, and grease can make him lose his weapon long enough to get up close and colour spray him.

Swapping spellbooks for war dogs isn't a good idea: it'll provoke him into using his much higher wealth by level to get even more pets than you have.

But not only do you have wardogs, but you also have three competant archers with crossbows. High dex, and average int nets a great attack bonus, and good spells to sell. Not only that, but SINCE he's still a wizard, he can still get one good scroll for necessity.

[candycorn]

If we're going WBLmancy, a Magebred mule is 16gp. Now, the fighter will have difficulty commanding them all, but 168 mules would make things more problematic.

[Acanous]

I think the better idea I've seen here is going Precocious apprentice/acidic splatter for feats, making all 3 wizards focused specialist (Evoker) and using Expeditious Retreat.

You'd only NEED one wizard to survive round one in order for it to be a win, unless he's dex-based.
Start with your familiars riding you, they share your space and can attack anything adjascent to you. If Dragon is not allowed, I suggest snake (Tiny Viper) for the bite attack.
Aside from that, a Tanglefoot Bag stops a charger, a Smokestick messes with a ranged fighter, and a thunderstone messes with his init, letting your other wizards go first. Each wizard can have all three.

[Flickerdart]

I think the better idea I've seen here is going Precocious apprentice/acidic splatter for feats, making all 3 wizards focused specialist (Evoker) and using Expeditious Retreat.

You'd only NEED one wizard to survive round one in order for it to be a win, unless he's dex-based.
Start with your familiars riding you, they share your space and can attack anything adjascent to you. If Dragon is not allowed, I suggest snake (Tiny Viper) for the bite attack.
Aside from that, a Tanglefoot Bag stops a charger, a Smokestick messes with a ranged fighter, and a thunderstone messes with his init, letting your other wizards go first. Each wizard can have all three.
Tiny creatures can only attack into their own square, so the only person your familiar could attack would be yourself.

[Chronos]

Acidic splatter is a decent alternative to fiery burst, and he's not protected against that. There's also power word pain for a guaranteed tie or win, and grease can make him lose his weapon long enough to get up close and colour spray him. Acidic Splatter doesn't work: It's got a range of 10 feet, which means that you'd have to soak an attack of opportunity to get close enough to use it.

Power Word: Pain, though... No, I'm really not seeing any answer to that. That is a ridiculously overpowered spell. An average of 40 damage, no save, for a 1st-level spell has got to be a misprint. Is there any feat that would give immunity to that?

I suppose we could protect against it via Necropolitan (it only works on living creatures), but then we're stuck with low HP again, and vulnerable to Magic Missile or the like.

[dextercorvia]

Power Word: Pain, though... No, I'm really not seeing any answer to that. That is a ridiculously overpowered spell. An average of 40 damage, no save, for a 1st-level spell has got to be a misprint. Is there any feat that would give immunity to that?

Power Word Pain is vulnerable to SR. So, Spellward Shirt comes back up. Also, just about any amount of Fast Healing should be able to offset a good portion of the damage done. Healing Devotion would offer some protection. Just getting HP high enough to not get hit with the 4d4 rounds duration would make a difference.

[Seerow]

Power Word Pain is vulnerable to SR. So, Spellward Shirt comes back up. Also, just about any amount of Fast Healing should be able to offset a good portion of the damage done. Healing Devotion would offer some protection. Just getting HP high enough to not get hit with the 4d4 rounds duration would make a difference.

It never made sense to me how the spell lasts longer against people with lower HP. Given it's supposed to be pain, not death, you would think that the spell would be intended to do less damage to low hp people, and more damage to high hp people.

[OracleofWuffing]

Otherwise they can get 6 Riding Dogs if they're willing to axe the familiar and spend a feat. Warbeast them and it'll be like having 6 level 3 monk pets.
You need to use Unarmed Swordsage Pets, they're much better at meaningfully contributing to combat.

I really think that Backbiter spell's fancy, even without the "Quit hitting yourself" aspect of it. I mean, the damage it does is automatic, he doesn't even need to hit your or his AC, and effectively he won't be able to do any weapon-based damage that round without investing in Quick Draw, quick razors, unarmed strikes, or something. Too bad about being threatened with Mage Slayer, the fact that he's probably going to pump Will, and that there's nothing else in Necromancy worth pumping at this level.

Continuing the quest for additional nifty spells...

Aberrate: Touch Attack with Fort Negate and SR: Yes :smallfrown: But it changes the target's type to aberration, getting rid of all those nasty Undead resistances Necropolitan gives him. Edit: Warforged only, I guess.

Tongue Tendrils: Personal and Hour duration. Get a 30 foot range grappler buddy with Str 20, but but treated as a small creature, so it'll probably autolose if the fighter tries to increase his size. In his pants.

Resinous Tar: Either call it the opposite of Grease or the Wizard's Miniature Entangle. Double movement costs for the area. Potential shenanigans could work with this and Tongue Tendrils, as you can instead impose a -5 to grapple resists.

Lesser Shivering Touch: :smallfrown: If only there was a way to make a Touch Attack and not get crushed in the process.

Hypnotic Rump: Yeah, haha, I don't think you'll be able to get 3rd Party all up in this.

Create Trap: Okay, time to abuse the CR system for traps. Ideas? You got a huge range to work with, too.

...I think that's everything worth a look from anything not in a specific setting...

[Chronos]

Power Word Pain is vulnerable to SR. So, Spellward Shirt comes back up. Spellward Shirt is only SR 5, though, meaning that any given spell has an 80% chance of success. That's nice for mitigating the damage from a barrage of Magic Missile, but when a single successful spell means eventual death, 20% chance of negating it isn't really enough, by a long shot. We could push it up to SR 9 if we could spare another feat for essentia, but that's still more likely to get through than not.

Getting enough HP to be over the 50 threshold would be nice, but I don't think there's any way to do it at level 3. Even if all three levels are in d12 classes, that's only 25, meaning that we need to pick up at least 26 more from elsewhere. A 28 Con at that level just ain't happening. Well, technically I suppose a dragonborn mongrelfolk barbarian would hit that while raging, but then we don't have the warforged immunities any more, and we're back to dying from fell-drained sonic snaps. Heck, just one of those snaps would bring you back down below the threshold of pain.

And Healing Devotion would help, in that it might be enough to let you survive one casting, but against two castings, there's just no chance.

[Chronos]

Aberrate: Touch Attack with Fort Negate and SR: Yes But it changes the target's type to aberration, getting rid of all those nasty Undead resistances Necropolitan gives him.Does it affect objects? Because if not, undead would be immune to that, due to the fort save. I don't know if it would work on a warforged, though.

[candycorn]

Strongheart halfling martial wizard specialist evokers.

1 Bloodline of Fire
1 Sudden Silent
1 Scribe Scroll Improved Initiative
Flaw Sudden Maximize
Flaw Sudden Empower
Trait: Aggressive
Trait: Spellgifted (Evocation)

20 dex, 12 Int, and 14-16 con, depending on point buy.

Initiative is +11.
Overcome Resistance Alternate specialist ability
Elemental Focus Alternate specialist ability.
Max ranks in Concentration

Casts Evocation (Fire) spells at CL 5.

Spell of Choice: CL 5 Kelgore's Firebolt (Sudden max, Sudden Empower, Overcome Resistance)

Damage: 5d6 (maximized) = 30 + 50% of rolled result (8.75) = 38.75 average damage, Reflex DC 12 half. On a passed save, average damage is 19.375 damage.

Followup spell is 17.5 damage, save for 8.75.

If the wizards go first, the enemy takes 116.25 damage on a failed save, and on average 58.125 damage on a passed save.

Wizards all have a base AC of 16, so hitting them isn't guaranteed. They've got good initiative, meaning they'll likely go first against most fighter builds, and they penetrate resistance to fire 10, which eliminates potions of fire resistance from the table.

As long as the wizards always start 20 feet away from each other, even the close range fight will only have one adjacent to the fighter. One bad reflex save roll, and the fighter's toast. Two full power spells get off, and chances are the fighter's toast with passed saves.

Bypasses necropolitan and warforged resistances. Bypasses high HP shenanigans. Concentration check is +6-7, meaning a decent chance of casting defensively. When taking total defense, AC is 20, meaning chances to hit aren't great, allowing the wizards to split up, to set up the fire blasts.

[OracleofWuffing]

Does it affect objects? Because if not, undead would be immune to that, due to the fort save. I don't know if it would work on a warforged, though.
Rats, no. "One living creature." :smallfurious: This is flagrant discrimination. Just glancing over the listing, and I'm not seeing immunity to in on Warforged. It's Transmutation Evil 1, in BoVD.

[dextercorvia]

And Healing Devotion would help, in that it might be enough to let you survive one casting, but against two castings, there's just no chance.

Two castings of PWP won't help them, (unless they are still around 4d4 rounds later -- in which case we have bigger problems) as it would be two or more spells with the same effect. The real bugger would be a sudden empowered or sudden maximized PWP.

[herrhauptmann]

Also, did I miss it, or did someone suggest out-doing a Great Cleave fighter? I bet the fighter guy will just bet that he could kill all three in one round if he wanted.


How does the fighter have great cleave at level 3?

[Chronos]

Rats, no. "One living creature." This is flagrant discrimination. Just glancing over the listing, and I'm not seeing immunity to in on Warforged. It's Transmutation Evil 1, in BoVD.Actually, what I was wondering about, and which the spell doesn't make clear, is whether the subject retains their subtypes. All of the juicy warforged immunities come from having the [Living Construct] subtype. It's probably irrelevant, anyway, since the spell can only be cast by fiends.

And dextercorvia, even if PWP doesn't stack with itself, it does still stack with any other damage, like, say, 4-6 castings of Magic Missile. And if we're talking sudden metamagic, you could also lethalize PWP via Sudden Extend, which has no prerequisites.

[TheDarkSaint]

OK, folks. I got the build from my friend.


Jimmy, the wonder Dude CR 3
Male Human Fighter3
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Senses ; Listen +0, Spot +0


AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14 (+1 Dex, +4 Chain Shirt)
hp 28 (3 HD)

Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +1 Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)

Melee Axe, Throwing +5 (1d6+2)
Melee Sword, Bastard +6 (1d10+3/19-20)
Melee Sword, Short +5 (1d6+2/19-20)
Ranged Axe, Throwing (Thrown) +4 (1d6+2)
Base Atk +3; Grp +5


Abilities STR 15, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 10


Feats
Armor Proficiency (Heavy),
Armor Proficiency (Light),
Armor Proficiency (Medium),
Cleave,
Combat Reflexes,
Martial Weapon Proficiency,
Power Attack, Quick Draw,
Shield Proficiency,
Simple Weapon Proficiency,
Tower Shield Proficiency,
Weapon Focus (Sword (Bastard))


Skills
Climb +1, Intimidate +6, Jump +2, Ride +3, Swim -1


Possessions
Acid (Flask)(2),
Alchemists Fire (Flask),
Axe, Throwing,
Backpack, Bedroll,
Chain Shirt,
Outfit (Travelers),
Potion of Cure Light Wounds(3),
Rope (Silk/50 Ft.),
Sword, Bastard,
Sword, Short,
Tanglefoot Bag(2),
Thunderstone(2)

[dextercorvia]

He's trolling you, right? Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword?

[Gavinfoxx]

HAHAHAHA.

Oh wow. ONE L1 wizard could do him in. Grease, Color Spray, Sleep, being on a mount with a crossbow, having a purchased animal or two. Make sure to get abrupt jaunt, focused specialist conjurer. Have a Large Scythe for the coup de grace. Focus on initiative optimization.

Then, for the rematch? Do it with a single phb only character.

[dextercorvia]

That guy looks like 1/4 of the challenge that I took on earlier with only 1 wizard. Combat Reflexes is about the only thing you have to worry about

[tyckspoon]

That's what he's going with? Seriously? If I didn't know how delusional people can be about the quality of their pet ideas I'd swear he's trying to deceive you into committing to weaker Wizard builds and then actually showing up with something competent. That build is the #1 poster example for "Fighters can't fight against magic."

Edit: Seriously, the "buff a champion wizard and beat him down in hand-to-hand" plan would be a viable and probably high-success-rate plan against that build.

[Seerow]

Yeah it looks like he went core only, and has no idea how to optimize even within that.


I'm surprised he expects to beat 3 1st level commoners, much less 3 wizards.

[Chronos]

Especially given that he's not even proficient with bastard sword.

And you guys did agree that all books were allowed, right? Because he doesn't have a single thing non-core in there.

Oh, and the lack of reach means he'll never get to use his Combat Reflexes, since the wizards can just 5' step away from him, and then Color Spray him.

In any event, there's no need to step outside of core to deal with any of that. Just make three halfling specialist evokers or illusionists, with 12 int, maxed dex, Improved Initiative in a normal feat slot, and a Color Spray and two Shocking Grasps (for finishing him off once he's stunned) prepared.

[TheDarkSaint]

It's not his feats or weapons that worry me.

It's the tanglefoot bags and thunderstones.

Round one, if he gets inititve, he throws a stone. Bang! I'm now making concentration checks to fire off spells and with a 20% chance of miscasting.

[tyckspoon]

It's not his feats or weapons that worry me.

It's the tanglefoot bags and thunderstones.

Round one, if he gets inititve, he throws a stone. Bang! I'm now making concentration checks to fire off spells and with a 20% chance of miscasting.

His initiative check: +1.
Your initiative check: +7ish (+4 Improved Initiative, +3 Dex mod.)

You get 3 chances to beat him, and that's not even counting in slipping in Hummingbird familiars or casting Nerveskitter, which gets pretty close to shoving him off the RNG entirely.

I.. really don't think you much need to worry about that.

[TheDarkSaint]

So, some great ideas here. Thanks guys. Good arguments on both sides.

It seems like we've focused a great deal on the 30 and 60 foot ranged arguments.

How do I fare if he starts within 5 feet of all characters? Let's say he gets lucky and starts combat there.

[Seerow]

Yeah, unless my math is off, with a +7 init vs +1 init, you have a 73.75% chance of winning initiative. With 3 wizards, you have 3 chances of winning, so he should be at just under a 2% chance of going first.


So, some great ideas here. Thanks guys. Good arguments on both sides.

It seems like we've focused a great deal on the 30 and 60 foot ranged arguments.

How do I fare if he starts within 5 feet of all characters? Let's say he gets lucky and starts combat there.


I thought all your mages got to start 20ft apart for all challenges?


Even if not, see above. You go first. You 5ft step back and cast.

[Gavinfoxx]

Edit: Seriously, the "buff a champion wizard and beat him down in hand-to-hand" plan would be a viable and probably high-success-rate plan against that build.

Come in with a few builds! Including one that does that!!

I think he is two handing the bastard sword as a martial weapon?

[TheDarkSaint]

Even if I get inititve, with combat happening right in my face, if I cast spells, he's going to whap me with attacks of opportunity.

[Gavinfoxx]

Even if I get inititve, with combat happening right in my face, if I cast spells, he's going to whap me with attacks of opportunity.

Then five foot step away, which does NOT provoke, THEN cast.

[Seerow]

Even if I get inititve, with combat happening right in my face, if I cast spells, he's going to whap me with attacks of opportunity.

That's what the 5ft step is for. He's using a bastard sword, and is medium. He has no reach. You 5ft step away and you're free to cast, no AoOs at all.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, just Color Spray or Sleep him once you 5 foot step. You'll be fine. Also get a dog or something.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well then!

Now the challenge is that you want to have a way of killing off all three wizards the turn after you kill the fighter, just to show off.

[tyckspoon]

How do I fare if he starts within 5 feet of all characters? Let's say he gets lucky and starts combat there.

Assuming absolutely everything goes wrong, he actually wins Init over all 3 of your Wizards, and rolls well enough to one-shot one of them and Cleave over a second? 5-foot step away and knock him over with a Color Spray anyway. Or Grease him to the floor. Or, if you feel like living dangerously, Mage Armor and then Shield yourself and engage him in direct combat. That build is something a single level 1 Wizard, played intelligently, will beat most of the time. And no matter what he does, you will have at *least* that single Wizard to use. (You might lose if the dice completely flip against you, which is a possibility in a one-off test. But given averages, you'll win.)

[TheDarkSaint]

Ok,, I've got enough ideas to give it a go. I'll let you guys know how it went.

Thanks!

[candycorn]

Wizard 1: Cast Mage Armor on Wizard 2.
Wizard 2: Cast Enlarge Person on himself.
Wizard 3: Cast Shield on Wizard 2.

Wizard 2 is an Orc with 19 strength, by the way.

Round 2:

Wizard 1: Cast (Precocious Apprentice) Cat's Grace on Wizard 2.
Wizard 2: Cast Fist of Stone
Wizard 3: Cast (Precocious Apprentice) Cat's Grace on Wizard 2.

Now, we have a 27 Strength wizard, with (assuming 14 dex base) AC 20. Now, it's a +7 to hit, and damage is around 1d6+8, with reach. Grapple for added fun (+12 bonus to grapple, vs the fighter's +5).

But seriously?

Level 1 evocation specialists could take him.

[dextercorvia]

Wizard 1: Cast Mage Armor on Wizard 2.
Wizard 2: Cast Enlarge Person on himself.
Wizard 3: Cast Shield on Wizard 2.

Wizard 2 is an Orc with 19 strength, by the way.

Round 2:

Wizard 1: Cast (Precocious Apprentice) Cat's Grace on Wizard 2.
Wizard 2: Cast Fist of Stone
Wizard 3: Cast (Precocious Apprentice) Cat's Grace on Wizard 2.

Now, we have a 27 Strength wizard, with (assuming 14 dex base) AC 20. Now, it's a +7 to hit, and damage is around 1d6+8, with reach. Grapple for added fun (+12 bonus to grapple, vs the fighter's +5).

But seriously?

Level 1 evocation specialists could take him.

You'll have to change some things. Cat's Grace won't stack with itself, and Shield is Personal only.

[Gavinfoxx]

@Candycorn you mean precocious apprentice bulls strength for one of those? Also maybe Magic Weapon instead of Shield? OOH! Mighty Wallop, somehow! Maybe Babau Slime? Critical Strike?

[candycorn]

@Candycorn you mean precocious apprentice bulls strength for one of those? Also maybe Magic Weapon instead of Shield? OOH! Mighty Wallop, somehow!

No. I meant cat's grace. Precocious Apprentice isn't guaranteed, and Fist of Stone is already providing a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, so bull's strength wouldn't do much.


Alternately:

Reduce Person
Cats Grace
Magic Weapon
Shield
Mage Armor

Buffed Wizard is a goblin (17 dex) with +2 size to dex (19) and +4 enhancement (23). Goblin is Tiny (+2 AC), and with mage armor/Shield. After all spells, should have a heavy crossbow, with rapid reload and magic weapon on it. Damage would be 1d6+1, and Goblin AC would be 26. Add on ray of frost, and other touch attacks, and you're good. For insult added to injury, Ray of Enfeeblement would be a solid choice.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Jimmy, the wonder Dude CR 3
Male Human Fighter3
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Senses ; Listen +0, Spot +0


AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14 (+1 Dex, +4 Chain Shirt)
hp 28 (3 HD)

Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +1 Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)

Melee Axe, Throwing +5 (1d6+2)
Melee Sword, Bastard +6 (1d10+3/19-20)
Melee Sword, Short +5 (1d6+2/19-20)
Ranged Axe, Throwing (Thrown) +4 (1d6+2)
Base Atk +3; Grp +5


Abilities STR 15, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 10


Feats
Armor Proficiency (Heavy),
Armor Proficiency (Light),
Armor Proficiency (Medium),
Cleave,
Combat Reflexes,
Martial Weapon Proficiency,
Power Attack, Quick Draw,
Shield Proficiency,
Simple Weapon Proficiency,
Tower Shield Proficiency,
Weapon Focus (Sword (Bastard))


Skills
Climb +1, Intimidate +6, Jump +2, Ride +3, Swim -1


Possessions
Acid (Flask)(2),
Alchemists Fire (Flask),
Axe, Throwing,
Backpack, Bedroll,
Chain Shirt,
Outfit (Travelers),
Potion of Cure Light Wounds(3),
Rope (Silk/50 Ft.),
Sword, Bastard,
Sword, Short,
Tanglefoot Bag(2),
Thunderstone(2)

This... This is what we were all worried about... Either this guy has no idea what optimisation is or has no idea what a wizard is capable of.

Hit him with color spray or sleep and proceed to Coup De Grace him with a scythe.

[dextercorvia]

Sleep is still a bad idea, because of the casting time. And, Color Spray won't make him unconscious because he has too many HD.

[tyckspoon]

Sleep is still a bad idea, because of the casting time. And, Color Spray won't make him unconscious because he has too many HD.

Eh. Use both. Knock him down with a Color Spray, use the free time to put him to Sleep, Coup. The build presented (I still can't believe he's honestly going to use that) is weak enough to use combos like that without real risk.

[Eldariel]

I think this is the best I can come up with for the Fighter at 3rd level. I still don't see how it stands a chance in hell against three 1st level Wizards.

Fighter Archer

Race - Elf Necropolitan (lose 1 level and Con score in exchange for being Undead and gaining all the immunities that come with it)

HP - 19
AC - 18
Speed - 30ft
Initiative +9
Str 8 Dex 20 Con -- Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8

Fort +3 Ref +5 Will +3

Feats - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative

Longbow (75gp) Studded Leather (25gp) + 50 extra gold (maybe an Inflict Light Wounds potion).


If flaws are added into the equation, then I'd go for Noncombatant and Pathetic (reduce that Con -- by 2), but I don't really know what extra feats I'd want to take. I don't know of any good low level archery feats.

Targetteer Fighter, Composite Greatbow with Str +3 (seriously, you can't afford to gamble on your ability to one-shot the Wizards and they can have 8-10 HP with Toad familiar; 1d8-1 hardly comes close), Mw. Bow, pick up Arrow Swarm & Law Devotion, 16/20/X/8/14/8. 28pb would cut two points from Str.

You can get +9 Initiative, 2 BAB + 5 Dex + 1 Bow + 3 Law Devotion - 5 Arrow Swarm to hit, or +6 total on 3 attacks. Could get 4 attacks at +4 but I think you have a better chance of landing 3 out of 3 at +6 than 3 out of 4 at +4. Damage is going to be 1d10+3, but we could buy 4 +1 Magebane Arrows which would grant +2 to hit and +2d6 damage for virtually guaranteed KOs.

EDIT: Optimally you'd of course be a small race too; Elven immunities don't mean much if you go Necro anyways.

[Gavinfoxx]

No. I meant cat's grace. Precocious Apprentice isn't guaranteed, and Fist of Stone is already providing a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, so bull's strength wouldn't do much.


Alternately:

Reduce Person
Cats Grace
Magic Weapon
Shield
Mage Armor

Buffed Wizard is a goblin (17 dex) with +2 size to dex (19) and +4 enhancement (23). Goblin is Tiny (+2 AC), and with mage armor/Shield. After all spells, should have a heavy crossbow, with rapid reload and magic weapon on it. Damage would be 1d6+1, and Goblin AC would be 26. Add on ray of frost, and other touch attacks, and you're good. For insult added to injury, Ray of Enfeeblement would be a solid choice.

Cat's Grace doesnt stack with itself.... so Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance maybe? Also the Combatant has to be the one to cast Shield...

[candycorn]

Cat's Grace doesnt stack with itself.... so Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance maybe? Also the Combatant has to be the one to cast Shield...

You're absolutely right. Cat's Grace doesn't stack with itself.

I know that.

But a level 1 wizard using Precocious Apprentice makes a DC 8 CL check at 1d20+1. There's a 30% chance of failure.

Frankly, I'd rather double down on Cat's grace, and lower that to a 9% chance of failure, than get 2 more HP on a d4+2 chassis.

Savvy?

[Roaan]

Don't forget Precocious Apprentice (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/precocious-apprentice--2236/). This could get you a spell like Scorching Ray (4d6) and as long as you can roll above a 7 you're golden (only a 30% of failure). Are action points allowed? Because then human wizards can take Maximize Spell and use it at no adjust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints#metamagicFeats)!

[candycorn]

Don't forget Precocious Apprentice (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/precocious-apprentice--2236/). This could get you a spell like Scorching Ray (4d6) and as long as you can roll above a 7 you're golden (only a 30% of failure). Are action points allowed? Because then human wizards can take Maximize Spell and use it at no adjust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints#metamagicFeats)!

I'd rather use Bloodline of Fire (feat), Spellgifted (trait), and Elemental Focus (Evoker ACF) to get CL 5 with fire evocation spells, and use a Kelgore's Firebolt at 5d6.

17.5 damage, reflex half, x3. That'll do it, against this chump fighter. Even without spellgifted, it's 14 damage, reflex half, x3.

He has a +2 reflex, so assume an int of 14, and you have a Save DC of 14, with spell focus (Evocation). He needs a 12+ to save (45%), which means, chances are, 14, 14, and 7 damage, round 1.

Assuming a 15 dex, and Improved init, you have a +6 initiative, meaning 1-2 of your guys is likely to go first.

[Coidzor]

With that build you could add insult to injury and have him taken out by a couple of riding dogs.

Or an enlarged Wizard+riding dog combo.

Or charm person him (it doesn't say he gets a bonus if he's hostile, only if your group is) and then use that time to tactically reposition and get ready to grease him or put him to sleep & coup de grace or have him be grappled to death by a pile of (enlarged) dogs.

[Chronos]

If you use anything non-core in this fight, he's probably going to cry foul, and just conclude that splatbooks are broken. Fortunately, we don't need non-core.

Let's just keep this simple, and give each of the three wizards the three best first-level save-or-sucks: Grease, Color Spray, and Sleep. In the ranged battles, whichever wizard goes first moves a little to the side (to prevent the possibility of Cleave) and readies an action to grease him as soon as he gets into range. This is pretty much guaranteed to work, because even if he makes his save, he's going to be attempting a Balance check (or two, for the 60' charge) with accelerated movement, which his character is going to suck at. The second wizard, meanwhile, starts casting Sleep (the Grease will give him the time needed to pull it off), while the third moves forward a bit and casts Color Spray (or readies an action to do so), just to be sure. On subsequent rounds, repeat any effect that he saved against, and have the other wizards hit him with quarterstaves, until he fails a save against Sleep. Then, once he's asleep, two wizards ready actions to hit him with sticks more, triggered on the third wizard coup-de-gracing him with a scythe (the readied actions are just in case he survives the CdG-- There's a chance he might).

For the close fight, it's similar, except each wizard starts by 5' stepping away, and go in order color spray - grease - sleep (if he manages to make the saves against the spray and sleep, the third guy instead uses another color spray).

Each wizard should be a halfling, with Improved Initiative taken as an ordinary feat. You might as well go with toad familiars. And since you're using effects with saves, put Int first, then Dex.

[Chronos]

Oh, and don't worry about the thunderstone or tanglefoot bag. If he leads off with the thunderstone, unless he beats two of your three wizards on initiative (unlikely, to say the least), he's only going to be able to get one of you in its area, and then that one gets a save, and even if you fail that save, it's only a 20% chance of miscast. With the tanglefoot bag, it doesn't really matter if he manages to immobilize one of you, since you have meaningful ranged options, and he doesn't (one single throwing axe does not constitute a meaningful option).

[dextercorvia]

You're absolutely right. Cat's Grace doesn't stack with itself.

I know that.

But a level 1 wizard using Precocious Apprentice makes a DC 8 CL check at 1d20+1. There's a 30% chance of failure.

Frankly, I'd rather double down on Cat's grace, and lower that to a 9% chance of failure, than get 2 more HP on a d4+2 chassis.

Savvy?

See, if I want to cast my Precocious Apprentice spell, instead of just using it to fuel a reserve feat, I take Arcane Mastery. It's amazing how taking 10 on a DC 8 check reduces that chance of failure to 0.:smallwink:

[Coidzor]

If you use anything non-core in this fight, he's probably going to cry foul, and just conclude that splatbooks are broken. Fortunately, we don't need non-core.

If you use spells in this fight, he's probably going to cry foul, and just conclude that casting is broken.

[Seerow]

If you use spells in this fight, he's probably going to cry foul, and just conclude that casting is broken.

Luckily the point is to show him that spells ARE broken, and wizards rule the game.

[dextercorvia]

If you use spells in this fight, he's probably going to cry foul, and just conclude that casting is broken.

But, if you beat on him with weapons, then he'll claim that you won by using fighter tactics.

[OracleofWuffing]

This... This is what we were all worried about... Either this guy has no idea what optimisation is or has no idea what a wizard is capable of.
Well, there is the Xanatos angle, where maybe he intentionally leaked this Fighter build out so that we'd prepare for it instead of a more robust secret Fighter build that he's actually going to use.