Empower Spell: what is multiplied?

[imneuromancer]

For spells that have a die plus modifiers for levels, when you multiply by 1.5 for Empower Spell, do you multiply out the die, or the die AND the bonus?

For example, produce flame by a 5th level Druid:
* do you multiply the 1d6 by 1.5 (for example, roll a 3, so (3*1.5)+5 = 9)
-or-
* do you multiply the 1d6+5 (example, roll a 3, so (3+5)*1.5 = 12)

I know, simple question. But I just can't find the answer on the interwebs!

[Rubik]

For spells that have a die plus modifiers for levels, when you multiply by 1.5 for Empower Spell, do you multiply out the die, or the die AND the bonus?

For example, produce flame by a 5th level Druid:
* do you multiply the 1d6 by 1.5 (for example, roll a 3, so (3*1.5)+5 = 9)
-or-
* do you multiply the 1d6+5 (example, roll a 3, so (3+5)*1.5 = 12)

I know, simple question. But I just can't find the answer on the interwebs!The random number you get out of a Magic Missile spell isn't 1-4. It's 2-5. That means the random variable is (1d4+1), so the entire thing is multiplied.

In the above bonus, the number you get out of Produce Flame is 6-11, so you'd multiply (1d6+5) by 1.5 to get your result.

[Campbellk8105]

The latter of the two examples you posted.

If you roll a 3, it'd be the 3+5*1.5 for 12.

[Chronos]

Right, it's the damage that varies, so it's the damage that gets multiplied. All of it.

[Eurus]

This has some weird effects like Radiant Servant of Pelor's Empower Healing being straightforwardly better than the later-gained Maximize Healing, so it's a little unclear on if the designers remembered this...

[mregecko]

This has some weird effects like Radiant Servant of Pelor's Empower Healing being straightforwardly better than the later-gained Maximize Healing, so it's a little unclear on if the designers remembered this...

Not actually straightforwardly better, just statistically better...

(4d8+20)*1.5 => 57 average, 36 min, 78 max
MAX(4d8+20) => 52 always.

So, on average it's better. Not always.

Of course, of you have Augmented Healing, then this starts to get skewed even further.... But just based on the #'s.

Also, the printing of the 3.5 DMG has the Magic Missile (1d4+1)*1.5 example specifically listed. This, to me, implies that they intended it... but maybe didn't completely understand and consider the ramifications / all implications.

[DeAnno]

Also, the printing of the 3.5 DMG has the Magic Missile (1d4+1)*1.5 example specifically listed. This, to me, implies that they intended it... but maybe didn't completely understand and consider the ramifications / all implications.

This statement is probably true. This interaction with empower is especially important when you get bonus damage per die, most notably from the War Mage and Argent Savant PRCs.

[Cruiser1]

This has some weird effects like Radiant Servant of Pelor's Empower Healing being straightforwardly better than the later-gained Maximize Healing, so it's a little unclear on if the designers remembered this...
Indeed, for proof that it works the way everybody has said, PHB page 94 where the Empower Spell feat is described even gives Magic Missile as its example, where all of (1d4+1) gets multiplied by 1.5. Unfortunately, that example is missing from the SRD entry for Empower Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell).

This makes Empower Spell strictly better than Maximize Spell for spells such as Spell Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) (1d4+6 = 10-13 levels empowered, and 10 levels always maximized), and for a lower level spell slot! Does Empower still multiply the whole formula by 1.5 for a spell like Fire Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm) that does (1d4 + caster level) in damage?

In spite of what's RAW, it seems that (given examples like RSoP above) RAI is that only the strictly variable part of the formula should be multiplied, and is a reasonable house rule to avoid making Empower Spell to good. Even with that house rule in place, Empower Spell can still sometimes beat out Maximize Spell. For example, with Magic Missile doing the adjusted formula of ((1d4)*1.5 + 1), that still beats the always 5 damage from Maximize if you roll a 4 (ending up with 7 damage total).

[FMArthur]

You're listing examples of things this mechanic specifically benefits, but there are tons of spells that are just simply dice with no bonuses, many being the most popular blasting options. On those, the damage of a Maximized spell is slightly under twice the average damage of the normal spell, beating Empower handily.

[Mystify]

You're listing examples of things this mechanic specifically benefits, but there are tons of spells that are just simply dice with no bonuses, many being the most popular blasting options. On those, the damage of a Maximized spell is slightly under twice the average damage of the normal spell, beating Empower handily.

Thats what I thought at first, but here is the breakdown on a D6 maximized vs. empowered:

{table=head] [b]raw roll | empowered| maximized
1 | 1 | 6
2| 3 | 6
3 |4 | 6
4 |6 | 6
5 | 7| 6
6 | 9| 6
[/table]
normal: 21/6 = 3.5
empowered: 30/6 = 5
maximized: 36/6 = 6

And if we have double it to get rid of the weird rounding errors that would dissapear with many dice:

{table=head] [b]raw roll | empowered| maximized
2 | 3 | 12
4| 6 | 12
6 |9 | 12
8 |12 | 12
10 |15| 12
12| 18| 12
[/table]
normal = 42 / 2 = 21 / 6 = 3.5
empowered = 63 / 2 = 31.5 /6 = 5.25
maximized = 72/ 2 = 36 /6 = 6

So the increase is 1.75 for empower, and 2.5 for maximize.
So, incrementally, you gain 1.75 for 2 levels to empower, or .875 increase per spell level, and the extra +1 to maximize it gives .75 more, making it less efficient of an increase.
When you add in the possibility of reducing it by 1,
empowered gives you a 1.75 increase for 1 level, and maximize gives 2.5 for 2, or 1.25/level. This makes empower a much more powerful boost for the adjustment.

You see, maximized is not double. its less than double, so considering it as a double is misleading. It is slightly better in absolute returns than empower, but the extra cost more than offsets it. Maximize actually comes out even with empower for a d4. It does increase in usefulness if you have a larger base die on the spell.

[Chronos]

Yeah, just because Empower is sometimes better than Maximize doesn't mean that it's too good. Heck, there are also a lot of spells (even a few blasting spells) where Extend is better than either, and that's even cheaper.

[ericgrau]

normal: 21/6 = 3.5
empowered: 30/6 = 5
maximized: 36/6 = 6
Ah but that's a 43% increase vs. a 72% increase. 43% / 2 = 21.5%. 72% / 3 = 24%. Maximized is slightly better here. But I always picked empowered because I like to apply it to a wide variety of spells which often benefit more from empowered. If I always chucked the same spell and if it used d6s then I might go maximized. True empowered tends to be better overall but what can you do? Maximize as a +2 would be too good because then I'd simply focus on the spells that benefit from it most and go to town on casting maximized spells with maniacal laughter.

Also don't forget at high levels you can get both. They don't synergize but they do stack well enough that you're not losing anything, you're just not gaining extra like you might think.

Since you can't increase the adjustment on empower by a fraction of a level nor decrease maximize by a fraction so a solution might be to weaken empower slightly or improve maximize slightly.

[Mystify]

Ah but that's a 43% increase vs. a 72% increase. 43% / 2 = 21.5%. 72% / 3 = 24%. Maximized is slightly better here. But I always picked empowered because I like to apply it to a wide variety of spells which often benefit more from empowered. If I always chucked the same spell and if it used d6s then I might go maximized. True empowered tends to be better overall but what can you do? Maximize as a +2 would be too good because then I'd simply focus on the spells that benefit from it most and go to town on casting maximized spells with maniacal laughter.

Also don't forget at high levels you can get both. They don't synergize but they do stack well enough that you're not losing anything, you're just not gaining extra like you might think.

Since you can't increase the adjustment on empower by a fraction of a level nor decrease maximize by a fraction so a solution might be to weaken empower slightly or improve maximize slightly.
Its a 50% increase vs. a 72% increase. The single die lowballs the estimate, since it loses half points due to rounding errors which would not be present when rolling a handful of dice,which is why I did the 2x calculation. 50%/2 is 25% increase, 72%/3 is a 24% increase. Empowered is slightly better.
Esp. once you factor in that, given the same total spell level, the empowered spell will be working off a more powerful base spell.

[ericgrau]

There's also the matter of action economy. If you can cast a 5th level spell or a 6th level spell and the 6th level spell is of course better, you're usually better off casting the 6th level spell even if you didn't quite get the full value of the spell level. Or in other words a maximized fireball is a better use of your turn than an empowered fireball. Even if it does take a higher level spell slot your chances of winning the fight are still better. The only drawbacks would be waiting 2 more character levels until you can use it and the fact that other spells like magic missile don't benefit as much. But if you're building a level 11+ character that focuses on fireballing I'd get maximize.

[Mystify]

There's also the matter of action economy. If you can cast a 5th level spell or a 6th level spell and the 6th level spell is of course better, you're usually better off casting the 6th level spell even if you didn't quite get the full value of the spell level. Or in other words a maximized fireball is a better use of your turn than an empowered fireball. Even if it does take a higher level spell slot your chances of winning the fight are still better. The only drawbacks would be waiting 2 more character levels until you can use it and the fact that other spells like magic missile don't benefit as much. But if you're building a level 11+ character that focuses on fireballing I'd get maximize.
You are probably better off learning a different +1 metamagic and using both than using maximized. For instance, and empowered blistering fireball would add 6 extra damage to the empowered, leaving it only 1.5hp below maximized on average, and penalizes the targets while you are at it. Energize spell will boost it a lot more if you are fighting undead, fell weaken would penalize the enemies strength, sculpt spell can make you hit more enemies.
Or, alternatively, empowering a 4th level spell instead of a 3rd level spell. Use blast of flame for more area and no spell resistance, orb of x for all of its potential benefits, explosive cascade to more presicely hit the area, vortex of teeth to create a zone of doom around you, etc.
At 10th level, itsa difference of 7.5hp between empowered and maximized. Pretty much any improvement in the quality of the spell is worth more than the extra damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To answer the original question more clearly, looking at the feat's benefit:
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half."
The entire effect gets increased, as long as it's both variable and numeric, rather than just the variable portion of an effect.

[tiercel]

Empower gives you more "bang for your buck" than Maximize; what Maximize brings to the table is a degree of certainty. You can still roll a 1 (or a bunch of 1s) on your Empowered spell, whereas you know exactly what effect you're getting from Maximize.

Overall, Empower is statistically better, but sometimes you just might want to know that you can count on THIS spell having THIS effect THIS round (e.g. BBEG fights), so there's a reason that Maximize is an option.

[kme]

Empower gives you more "bang for your buck" than Maximize; what Maximize brings to the table is a degree of certainty. You can still roll a 1 (or a bunch of 1s) on your Empowered spell, whereas you know exactly what effect you're getting from Maximize.

Overall, Empower is statistically better, but sometimes you just might want to know that you can count on THIS spell having THIS effect THIS round (e.g. BBEG fights), so there's a reason that Maximize is an option.

This. Perfect example is Enervation spell.

With empower you have a chance of getting the amazing 6 negative levels (fight winner) but you also have the same chance of getting only 1 (almost a waste of action).

Maximize will get you the always reliable 4 levels (not as good as 6 but still very good). If I was a wizard with only one of those prepared, It would be the maximized one.

[dsmiles]

...or just do both. Yeah, it's a lot higher in level, but are you really going to be doing that much blasting anyways? :smallwink:

[Mystify]

...or just do both. Yeah, it's a lot higher in level, but are you really going to be doing that much blasting anyways? :smallwink:

Odd thing about doing both... your max is still the same, you just raise the minimum. If you roll really well on your empower, then the maximize didn't help that much. If you roll poorly, the maximize helps lot, but the empower doesn't. In any given case, they work at cross purposes. Fortunately(?), the best case is rolling average, since that makes both sides as effective. empower gives a good boost, but the maximize also raised the damage alot.

[dsmiles]

Odd thing about doing both... your max is still the same, you just raise the minimum. If you roll really well on your empower, then the maximize didn't help that much. If you roll poorly, the maximize helps lot, but the empower doesn't. In any given case, they work at cross purposes. Fortunately(?), the best case is rolling average, since that makes both sides as effective. empower gives a good boost, but the maximize also raised the damage alot.


An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. An empowered, maximized fireball cast by a 15th level wizard deas points of damage equal to 60 plus one-half of 10d6 The chances of actually rolling 60 on 10d6 isn't very big. I'd rather not take the chance of rolling poorly, if I was going to blast anything. 60 plus 1/2 10d6 seems a better option than 10d6 plus 1/2 of whatever crappy roll I ended up with.

[Mystify]

The chances of actually rolling 60 on 10d6 isn't very big. I'd rather not take the chance of rolling poorly, if I was going to blast anything. 60 plus 1/2 10d6 seems a better option than 10d6 plus 1/2 of whatever crappy roll I ended up with.

Yes, its better... but its not truly worth the entire bonus of both. Its anti-synergetic.It is certainly not worth a +5 level.

[dsmiles]

Yes, its better... but its not truly worth the entire bonus of both. Its anti-synergetic.It is certainly not worth a +5 level.One of the reasons blasting is less than optimal...
Battlefield control and buff/debuff support are really where it's at.