Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Cheesegear]

especially if a Priest is giving Furious Charge to the Hammers. [...] Either he kills Mephiston, or kills the Hammers, and leaves himself open to S10 hits.

The Hammers are S9. 4x2+1 = 9. Multiply before addition. It's in the rules. The only exception that I know of is Hammerhand.

[bluntpencil]

The Hammers are S9. 4x2+1 = 9. Multiply before addition. It's in the rules. The only exception that I know of is Hammerhand.

Still, pretty awesome. He's left with a tough choice to hit either them or Mephiston.

I'm thinking dreads are still maybe worth a go, though, especially Librarian dreads packing Sanguine Sword like Mephiston, combined with Might of Heroes as well as a Sanguinary Priest hiding behind them to boost Initiative when charging. Hard to pull off, but could work. Stormravens could help here, but we're getting expensive now.

[Timberwolf]

Even on a good day, I can't figure out how to down Anger Wrath (what? You didn't see that?). To drop a T8, 8 Wound Gargantuan with a 4+ Invulnerable, I'd probably be bringing at least 16 Lascannons, about the same amount of Meltaguns and Lysander with 30 Hammernators. But, that's my normal Apoc army and is built around Lysander and 30 Hammernators, which is kind of amazing.

Sometimes I wonder how Hector Rex did it, and I'm forced to conclude that it all came down to a Daemonbane (Nemesis weapon) roll and An'ggrath was removed from play, and Rex had to've charged for his Psyk-Out Grenades to work and take the Daemon down to I1. Then An'ggrath had to have rolled amazingly poorly or Rex made all his Invulnerables as he's only T3 with no Eternal Warrior.

Ok, let me tell you how that went.

My opponent took Anggrath, Fateweaver and the Altar of Chaos Glory (+1 to all invulnerables within 12 inches) as his asset. He then set up in the middle of the board and made all his saves. I didn't get so much as a nibble of fateweaver and his wretched Obliterators just wouldn't die. Anggrath was down to 4 wounds after eating all the fire my Warhound, with 2 TTL's could put on him and everything else my army had. They just wouldn't die. I think I did well to get Anggrath down to half wounds. Most of those were caused by my Death Company powerfist.

Anggrath + Fateweaver = largely unkillable, especially when he's making all his saves.

[Cheesegear]

Ok, let me tell you how that went.

My opponent took Anggrath, Fateweaver and the Altar of Chaos Glory (+1 to all invulnerables within 12 inches) as his asset.

Oh wow. That's...Amazing.

[Timberwolf]

Oh wow. That's...Amazing.

Next time, Codex Librarian with Null Zone and Rune priest with Jaws spam. Cop that Fateweaver.

[Tychris1]

Fateweaver may not be able to top that but Khorne and Ann'grath have something to top it. 2+ save against psyker powers and decent I.

[Renegade Paladin]

Fateweaver may not be able to top that but Khorne and Ann'grath have something to top it. 2+ save against psyker powers and decent I.
Jaws doesn't target them, though. They just fall in a hole. Not that it would work on Ang'grath, though, since he's a gargantuan creature.

[Timberwolf]

Jaws doesn't target them, though. They just fall in a hole. Not that it would work on Ang'grath, though, since he's a gargantuan creature.

All I want is Fateweaver dead and Obliterators falling down a hole to their Deaths.

"Not Just As Planned at all !)

[Renegade Paladin]

All I want is Fateweaver dead and Obliterators falling down a hole to their Deaths.

"Not Just As Planned at all !)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/Angrymarines_tzeentch.jpg

:smallbiggrin:

[Timberwolf]

That's the one, that's exactly what I have in mind !

[Renegade Paladin]

1850 points, Mk 1. Subject to editing. If I get any of my Forge World stuff ready before the tournament, this will probably be my backup list in case someone in the tournament doesn't want to play with Forge World rules. 1850 points

Company Command Squad - 230
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Officer of the Fleet
-Chimera dedicated transport

Company Command Squad - 165
-Three meltaguns
-Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport

Storm Trooper Squad - 115
-Two plasma guns

Storm Trooper Squad - 105
-Two meltaguns

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Two flamers, heavy flamer
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Two heavy flamers

Veteran Squad - 100
-Three meltaguns

Valkyrie - 100

Devil Dog - 140
-Multi-melta
-Smoke launchers

Hellhound - 135
-Smoke launchers

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Basilisk - 125
This will require building three more meltagun infantry and the Valkyrie, but I can get that done by Memorial Day. This is really, really melta-heavy, so further iterations may well be in the direction of less melta and more templates, possibly replacing the Devil Dog with outflanking heavy flamer Tauros assault vehicles.

[Hootman]

1850 points, Mk 1.

I have very little experience with Guard, but that list looks pretty solid to me. All of your troops are mech'd up, with meltas and heavy flamers everywhere. There are only two things I'm not sure about:

1. Are you sure the sponsons on the LRBT are worth it? I always thought they looked like guns I'd never get to fire due to moving to find the best cannon shots.

2. Is the Devil Dog really that cheap with the multimelta added on? I knew Hellhound variants were in the 140 range, but I expected the MM to be a somewhat expensive upgrade. I don't have my book handy to check this for myself.

[Renegade Paladin]

I have very little experience with Guard, but that list looks pretty solid to me. All of your troops are mech'd up, with meltas and heavy flamers everywhere. There are only two things I'm not sure about:

1. Are you sure the sponsons on the LRBT are worth it? I always thought they looked like guns I'd never get to fire due to moving to find the best cannon shots.

2. Is the Devil Dog really that cheap with the multimelta added on? I knew Hellhound variants were in the 140 range, but I expected the MM to be a somewhat expensive upgrade. I don't have my book handy to check this for myself.
The Devil Dog is base 120. I won't go into wargear costs because GW, but the price is accurate.

[Cheesegear]

If I get any of my Forge World stuff ready before the tournament, this will probably be my backup list in case someone in the tournament doesn't want to play with Forge World rules.

Isn't that up to the TO, and probably outlined in the tournament guidelines - if there are any? It doesn't matter whether your opponents want you to play with FW rules or not if the TO says they're allowed.

On topic though; Your list looks fine. Same criticism as last time that you have too many different things in your list when spam is the name of the game. I don't know how effective one Basilisk is going to be, but hopefully your Leman Russ should be taking fire meant for it.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm considering dropping the Russ for another Basilisk (or my Manticore) and using the points for multiple rocket pods on the Valkyrie (or a fourth meltagun for the second command squad) or something. I only have two Basilisks, two Russ hulls, and two Hellhound hulls, though, so there's only so much spam I can do.

[Drasius]

I hesitate to comment since my knowledge of IG is virtually non-existant, but there's not much long range AT stuff in that list at all. Yes, there's lots of melta, and yes, they are meched up with transports to get 'em close enough to use it, but won't you be hurting to de-mech the opposition in the 1st turn or 2? Especially if he can open your Chims and make you footslog? Could get nasty.

[BoSheck]

Batrep time, fellas! I had a standing offer for an 1850 practice game with any members of our local club and one of the kiddos (re: high school kiddo) who hasn't had a chance to play in a tournament wanted an opportunity to stretch his legs beforehand.

So here's a batrep!

I put on my game face and dusted off the 'ol Logan Bomb and here's the result:
The Sons of Russ:
275 - HQ - Valkur: wolf claw/storm shield/thunderwolf/2x fenrisian
wolves/ saga of the warrior born, runic armor, Wolf tail Talisman
275 - Logan Grimnar
100 - HQ - Rune Priest Tyr: Living Lightning/jaws of the world wolf;
260 - Fast - 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry storm shield; melta bombs; power fist
115 - Wolf's Hook - Elite- 5 Wolf Scouts: 2x power weapon; melta gun
330 - Troops - 5x Wolf Guard combi melta/power fist; terminator
armor/cyclone missile; Arjac
95 - Skull Pack - Troops - 6x Grey Hunters: 1x meltagun
95 - Wolfbones - Troops - 6x Grey Hunters: 1x meltagun
145 - Hagalaz - Long Fangs: 2x missile launcher; 2x lascannon
125 - Sunwolf Pack - 5 long fangs, 4x multimelta, Meltagun Sergeant
----->35 - Drop Pod

*ED: I've slightly altered this list since I last played it over a year ago. Nemesis Force Weapons make multiwound models sad, so I put a Talisman on the Wolf Lord.


Blood Angels Secret Chaos Traitors:

Mephiston
3x Sanguinary Priests, 2x power weapons, 1x power fist
Assault Marines in a Land Raider Fists/Meltaguns
More Assault Marines in a More Different Land Raider, Fists/Meltaguns
10x Assault Marines Flyin 'round with Fists and Meltaguns
10x Assault Marines Flyin 'round with Fists and Meltaguns
AC/HB Baal Predator
AC/HB Baal Predator
Auto/Las Predator
Auto/Las Predator


The Game:

Spearhead, Annihilation.

With the traitorous, chaos-loving blood angels rapidly advancing across the peace-loving agriworld and none of the planetary militia daring to stand up against the blood-crazed warp-possessed ubermensch, a desperate distress beacon ripples across space. Fortune smiles upon the Imperium that day, for Wolf Lord Valkur's fleet, had made their way back into Imperial Space after another skirmish with their tenacious Iron Warrior foes.

Estimating nearly fifty assault marines in the invader's main force, Valkur's elite company would be greatly outnumbered and it might be days before the Great Wolf himself arrived to aid the Wolf Lord. Instead, three helmsmen salvage spare ceramite plating from the repair bay and excess pelts from the trophy room. Surely the Great Wolf wouldn't mind his visage being borrowed for a few hours to save the lives of possibly thousands!


Turn 1:

The Sons of Russ have the initiative as the Blood Angel forces roll directly into the ambush location. Wolfbones and Skull Pack take up in a forest and a fortification on the far side of the battlefield, positioning themselves in nearby terrain to force any ambush units into awkward positions. A drop pod with the Great Wolf's markings rockets out of the sky as Valkur and his elite cadre of cavalry advance forward. Lascannons fire at the armored wall (snake eyes!). Wolf's Hook, sneaks toward the Blood Angel's front line, not thinking they'd have the time to come around for a sneak attack. A few wolf guard launch missiles at the predators, all but one missing, but managing to shake up the crew for a moment. The 'Great Wolf' (really one helmsman standing on another's shoulders, in a reasonable facsimile of tactical dreadnought armor), and his 'Champion', as well as several melta shots fire into the land raiders, the untrained stand-ins managing to do...nothing.

The Blood Angel counterattack is as vicious as it is swift. Assault Marines rocket over land raiders as lascannons and autocannons fire into the thunderwolves, unable to scratch a single one of the mounted warriors. Arjac Rockfist's stand-in is injured by a bolt pistol. Mephiston himself, as well as 10 assault marines charge in, slaying the Multi-melta toting distraction, as well as downing the 'Great Wolf' as the cobbled armor fails the helmsmen. Rune Priest Tyr cuts down the attackers like wheat before a scythe, however.

Turn 2

Set up for a perfect counterattack, Valkur salutes his Wolf Guard. More lascannons and missiles miss, but the Wolf Lord charges in to rescue Tyr and challenge Mephiston--his two wolf companions moving in to occupy the rage-wrought librarian. The other Thunderwolves take the fight to the attackers standing over the bodies of Wolf's Hook. Tyr's staff shuts down any attempts by Mephiston to improve his combat prowess and the monster misses every attack against the fenrisian wolves. Tyr laughs and cuts down another blood angel before falling to a power fist--however Valkur begins adding to his tally for Warrior Born. The Cavalry manage to fell a few Blood Angels, but are unable to get at the real problem--the infernal chalice bearing priest stuck in their back lines.

A Baal Predator arrives on the far flank, challenging the two grey hunter packs, but it unable to cause either to break. A second squad of Assault Marines joins the large fray with the Cavalry--another squad is in the Landraider near Valkur, but instead cowers. Predators attempt to kill Long Fangs in cover--no one dies. Mephiston manages to strike down the Fenrisian Wolves, but Valkur finishes off the Assault Marines, splitting his 10 attacks between the Sanguinary Priest and the few standing traitors. He and Mephiston stand off for an epic confrontation. On the other side of things, musical wounds ensures that despite 5 powerfist wounds, no thunderwolves die this turn.


Turn 3

Grey Hunters move to surround the Baal, blowing off it's Assault Cannon with meltaguns. Lascannons finally connect, exploding the now empty land raider and stunning one of the predators. Mephiston fails his psychic test for one of his powers, but lays full force into Valkur. All Invulnerable saves are made by the Wolf Lord, who then, with the help of his Wolf Claw and the tally of his saga from last turn, takes the vaunted librarian from unwounded to dead. A victory Consolidation takes him around the side of the drop pod to aid his wolf brethren.

The second Baal is nowhere to be seen on the Blood Angel turns, some autocannon and lascannon shots make their way to the Wolf Lord who laughs them off with his shield. Heavy Bolter rounds bounce off the Grey Hunter's armor. A fierce combat is underway, however, and two riders fall beneath the weight of 3 separate powerfists.

Turn 4

A few more lascannon shots cripple one of the predators, and a melta shot sees to it that the Baal is unable to shoot in the coming turn. The combat in the center of the board is joined by the Wolf Lord, who begins marking his Warrior Born tally once more, but another Thunderwolf does fall under the mass of attacks.

The second Baal arrives, this time choosing to harass Skull Pack. Baldr, the Spiteful laughs, brandishing his meltagun as the opportunity to cut into more blood-red hulls has presented itself. The other Baal makes for a Tank Shock against Wolfbones but a Glory hungry Grey Hunter sends the vehicle to the scrapyard. Valkur starts really killing Blood Angels in earnest again, winning combat by enough that the otherwise unshakeable marines run--right off the board, in fact. Consolidations are made.


Wrap up

The game went to turn seven, but it was really just the other predator exploding because of Baldr's Meltagun and Thunderwolves ping-ponging around and cleaning up the last few vehicles. A wolfy victory by a heavy margin, despite an abysmal first turn. Valkur didn't take a wound until turn 7. So there was some raging about storm shields.

Things I learned this game: My black dice aren't voodoo magic win machines! Sometimes you roll all of the 1s. The dice make fools of us all!

[Cheesegear]

All my Forgeworld stuff came today.
*drool*

[Hootman]

Batrep time, fellas!

That was most enjoyable--I can appreciate the Wolves' ingenuity, tricking the Traitor Angels into thinking they had slain a great Imperial Hero, only to turn the tables immediately and rout them.

[Renegade Paladin]

All my Forgeworld stuff came today.
*drool*
Out of curiosity, what Forge World stuff in particular?

Also, I'll just leave this here. (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3185)

[Cheesegear]

Out of curiosity, what Forge World stuff in particular?

Zhufor, 10 World Eater Terminators and 20 Berzerkers. And two sets of Rhino doors.

Or, possibly more accurately...Logan and 30 Wolf Guard. :smallsigh:

[Renegade Paladin]

May they serve you well.

Speaking of Forge World, there are what appear to be small nonfills in the superstructure of my Stormblade. I still need to dry-fit it to make sure, but if those suspiciously irregular-looking gaps aren't supposed to be there, I may need to see if they'll give miscast superheavies the same treatment as miscast Chimeras.

[Jera]

I found a bunch of Warhammer 40k miniatures at a yard sale earlier today for about $35.

There is about 70 models, I was told they're Space Wolves from late 90's early 00's, and while I don't have a codex yet I have been able to guess at the identity of the models based on online pictures.

I'm going to go by my local gaming store next week after I paint some of the models, and I'm not sure about how to create the army. Could anyone help me with creating an army at the 500/1000 point levels? I don't know what scale they play at the store and I don't think it would be smart just to put all of the models on the board and just have at it.

Also, is there anything that I should buy other than the codex/rule book to update the army?

What I have

HQ: 4 total
2x Rune Priests
1x Lukas the Trickster
1x Wolf Lord with combi melta

Elites: 10 total
5x Wolf Guard in terminator armor ~4x with Power fists, 1x with Power Sword
5x Scouts with Sniper Rifles

Troops: 47 total
40x Grey Hunters/Blood Claws with standard war gear
3x Grey Hunters/Blood Claws with Plasma guns
3x Grey Hunters/Blood Claws with Melta Guns
1x Space Marine with Missile Launcher

Heavy Support: 1
1x Dreadnaught

[Cheesegear]

I found a bunch of Warhammer 40k miniatures [...] I was told they're Space Wolves from late 90's early 00's, and while I don't have a codex yet I have been able to guess at the identity of the models based on online pictures.
[...] Could anyone help me with creating an army at the 500/1000 point levels? I don't know what scale they play at the store and I don't think it would be smart just to put all of the models on the board and just have at it.

Also, is there anything that I should buy other than the codex/rule book to update the army?

You're in luck! Not only did you pick up an amazing deal, but Space Wolves are easily one of the - if not the - best beginner armies. Very few bad choices to be made, and almost all of them end in the suffix '-claw'.

1. You need an HQ. Rune Priests are amazing.
2. For 750-1000 points, you'll want between two and three Troops choices. Since you have no vehicles, it looks like you'll be Footslogging it for a while. That's fine. Like I said, Space Wolves are excellent, and you don't necessarily need vehicles to make a SW army work.

So, let's say 30 Grey Hunters in three squads.
Give one squad two Plasmaguns, and give the other two squads two Meltaguns each. I know, you don't have four Meltaguns. But, look into acquiring some more, or proxy some, etc. It doesn't matter in regards to points because Grey Hunters get the second one in squads free. It's just a matter of having your unit do one thing properly instead of half-arsing two things at once.

An approximation;

Rune Priest - 120 Points
Chooser of the Slain, Saga of the Beastslayer

Rune Priest - 120 Points
Chooser of the Slain, Wolftooth Necklace

Wolf Scouts (x5) - 90 Points
Rifles

Grey Hunters (x10) - 160 Points
x2 Plasmaguns

Grey Hunters (x10) - 155 Points
x2 Meltaguns

Grey Hunters (x10) - 155 Points
Meltagun, Plasmagun

Total: 800 Points

The Wolf Scouts are not ideal. When you get the Codex, you'll find that they're much better at Assault, rather than Shooting. And, again, the last squad of Grey Hunters should have two Meltaguns, rather than one of each (but the points cost remains the same).

What you'll quickly find is that this list lacks support elements. For Space Wolves, that means Long Fangs (or Predators, but you're not rolling vehicles, so Fangs are better...And they're better anyway). Or Dreadnoughts. But, word of warning, 'just one' Dreadnought isn't enough. You need two or more. Which isn't quite a good idea in Space Wolves since one Elite slot should be spent on Wolf Guard, and another spent on Wolf Scouts. Which doesn't leave room for two Dreads, so it normally ends up as two units of Wolf Guard/Scouts.

[Timberwolf]

Since you have no vehicles, it looks like you'll be Footslogging it for a while. That's fine. Like I said, Space Wolves are excellent, and you don't necessarily need vehicles to make a SW army work.



QFT. I play foot wolves (barring an occasional drop pod because Terminators don't deepstrike). It's led to me having 3 separate Marine armies for whatever I feel like. the Wolfies are my "I feel like power armour today" army. They have been very successful.

[bluntpencil]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/SPACE_MARINE_TERMINATOR_WEAPON_SET.html

Pretty awesome combi-weapons for Wolf Guard, I reckon!

[Cheesegear]

Hey Thread,

I lost track of things for a while. Things seemed to blur and the thread was going really fast. If you wrote a Guide at any point during the thread, can you post a link (or links) to the posts, or at least the page if you don't know how to get individual posts?

Thanks,
The Friendly Neighbourhood Cheesegear

[Timberwolf]

I need to finish off the BA one. Been very busy.

[Ricky S]

Here is the link to the tau guide I wrote up. page 20. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13056559&postcount=581

[Haruspex_Pariah]

So I just got my hands on the SOB codex (late to the party, I know :smallwink:). Spent the past few days poring over it and skimming the Interwebz for opinions and I have only one question: Celestians, what are they good for?

Each unit in the codex has a role to play, but the Celestians don't seem to have a tactical niche. They don't jump, they don't swing PW, they can't dual-wield CCW, they don't spam special or heavy weapons, they don't sport heavy armour, they don't anything other than some increased stats and an AoF which taken together suggest close combat.

So did I miss anything?

[Wraith]

I lost track of things for a while. Things seemed to blur and the thread was going really fast. If you wrote a Guide at any point during the thread, can you post a link (or links) to the posts, or at least the page if you don't know how to get individual posts?

Thanks for the reminder - I've made my additions, so here we are. Codex: Eldar v1.2, starting with HQ and Elites :smallsmile:

HQ
Farseer
Let's start at the top; non-Special character Eldar HQ units don't get better than the Farseer, when they're done properly. This is not necessarily a compliment. And by “properly" we mean "don't put them in any position where they have to fight something". Their stat-line and list of abilities should be a loud and clear warning that you are to use the guy for supporting the rest of your army, not being it's spearhead. Letting your opponent shoot at or - God forbid - get into close combat with your T3, A1 non-Eternal Warrior is Christmas come early for him.

Runes of Warding: In most metagames, this upgrade is mandatory. It has no maximum range and doesn't require line of sight, so if it's not a nasty inconvenience for guys like Mephiston then it's completely shutting down entire armies like Grey Knights and quite a lot of Daemons and Tyranids.
Runes of Witnessing: Not such a good idea - while it reduces yours chance of rolling double 6's, it also significantly increases your chance of double 1's, so you're not really improving anything. While the Ghost Helm will save you most of the time, if you're using a lot of powers it's generally safer just to rely on Ld10 doing all the hard work for you and then back it up with a Warlock with the Embolden power.
Spirit Stones: Never to be used in conjunction with Runes of Witnessing, as your Farseer will eventually do himself more harm than good. That said, in smaller games where you can only make room for one Farseer it's extremely helpful to be able to use Guide and Fortune, or Guide and Doom, in the same turn. If you have more than one Farseer, however, you can usually get away with overlooking 'Stones for something else.
Singing Spear: On paper, an important upgrade. Why not give him a s9 shot that doubles as a handy can-opener against tanks, for 3 measly points? The answer is, because your Farseer shouldn't be in any position to use it, that's why! If you're 12" away from the enemy, they *might* take one casualty, and then they are going to Assault you and you are going to die. Don't leave yourself open to temptation – if you want to kill one guy per shooting phase, Mind War him instead and make it count and then stab his buddies twice in the Assault phase.
Jetbike: Expensive, and requires a lot of (also expensive) support, however when used right a Farseer on a Jetbike can be a game winner. Effectively, it means that you will never be out of range for Mind War and/or Doom. On a Jetbike with a bodyguard, is also the only place to genuinely consider taking a Singing Spear - you're fast enough to get away from threats of Assault while also fast enough to get within striking range in the first turn. If your Farseer is with Guardians, give him a 'Spear and he becomes their Tank Killer; if he's with anything else, don't bother as they probably have their own ways and means of doing the same thing, but better.

Psychic Powers
Doom: No Farseer should leave home without it. Good range, and it can benefit anything in your army rather than a few units in specific situations. There are no circumstances that require you to NOT kill your enemies, so you might as well do it efficiently.
Guide: Since you're not supposed to put your Farseer near the front line, this is a good power to give to him while he is lurking in cover, near your Heavy weapons. If you're not into that sort of thing and prefer a fast, close combat army, don't waste your points on re-rolling to hit with Shuriken Pistols.
Mind War: Extremely useful, particularly on a Jetbike. Also known as 'Turn 1: Kill That Guy With A Lascannon, Or That Monstrous Creature Too Tough Or Far Away To Be Hurt By Shurikens'. Often a good way to deal with enemy Psychic Hoods, if you're feeling brave and want to risk a straight coin flip to see who wins. A lucky roll early on, however, will reap a great benefit over the next few turns.
Eldritch Storm: Much better in the previous edition, when a vehicle used up it's movement to turn itself around on the spot. Nowadays all you're doing is risking a small chance that your enemy might be pinned (Rangers are better for this task) or an even smaller chance of exposing rear armour on an enemy vehicle for 1 turn. Too random, either way - avoid.
Fortune: Combined with a unit that has high toughness or an invulnerable save - Warlocks, or Wraithguard, for example - Fortune ensures that they aren't going to die. In the case of Wraithguard, who are already 3+ and can be given 5++ with a nearby Warlock, ever. If your army is light on these sorts of units, or you have a play-style that requires lots of fast, light units, it's not so good. Re-rolling a 5+ save probably isn't going to help you as much as killing your opponent before he can shoot you, so in such a circumstance Doom is a better choice.

Warlock Bodyguard
You won't need very many before the squad gets extremely expensive, but they're one of precious few Eldar sources that have an invulnerable save. If your Farseer is riding a Jetbike, along with these guys such a unit has been known to stampede through a surprising number of Tournaments for their ability to soak up an impressive amount of fire-power and then kill whatever they reach in their own turn. On foot, they're not so hot due to low toughness and lack of Attacks/Power Weaponry. In a perfect world, Witchblades would be Force Weapons. Alas.....

Jetbike: Farseer + Fortune + Jetbikes + Invulnerable Saves = extremely resilient, always able to get where you need them, and enough s9 attacks will kill anything quickly. Just try not to get carried away and take too many of them; you're going to be spending a hideously large amount of points on a none-scoring unit, so plan accordingly.
Singing Spear: A given unit of Warlocks should contain one guy with the Enhance power, one guy with Embolden *IF* they're with a Farseer and everyone else with Destructor. Those two odd guys can take a Singing Spear in order to give themselves something to do in the Shooting phase and to crack Tanks if you find that you have fallen short/haven't already given one to the Farseer. Also as with the Farseer entry, you're better off having more attacks in Assault than one and a short ranged shooting attack.
Wave Serpent: If you have a big unit of Warlocks, this is the slightly cheaper alternative to Jetbikes. Since a unit of Fortune'd Warlocks are one of the most likely things in the Codex to survive the turn after disembarking, and because Wave Serpents are so awesome (more on that later) this is not as unlikely as it sounds. Even so, taking a Wave Serpent with a Warlock bodyguard almost certainly means that you're also putting your Farseer on the front line, and inevitably on foot. THINK. VERY. CAREFULLY. About what you're about to do.
Spirit Seer: A Warlock Bodyguard doesn't need this. If you're crazy about Wraithguard then they can have their own private Warlock, and there's enough other places to put a single Spirit Seer within range of a Wraithlord that you won't have two of your most expensive units within range of a single artillery barrage.

Psychic Powers
Conceal: Useful for an individual Warlock that is attached to a unit of Troops, virtually useless in a Bodyguard who already have 3+/4++.
Enhance: At least 1 member of the Bodyguard unit should always have this power. You only need 1, and (Vindicare/enemy Mind War antics aside) he should be the last person to die.
Embolden: Your Farseer hasn't taken Runes of Witnessing. A Farseer can join a unit of Warlocks. Psychic powers are "a normal leadership test". See what I'm getting at? (Cheat code: Take 1 guy with this power if a Farseer has joined the unit, and save yourself the price of a set of more dangerous Runes of Warding). Certainly, don't take Embolden and Runes of Warding – if you're regularly rolling 3d6, picking the lowest 2 and finding that you need a re-roll, your money would be better spent on new dice, than new models......
Destructor: Everyone who doesn't have Embolden[i] or Enhance, should a) always have this instead (on foot) or b) probably have it anyway (if mounted on Jetbikes). Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults are usually "okay", Destructor can sometimes be "great", so take your pick depending on what you're going to do with them.

Autarch
If you prefer a more aggressive play style, or want to use lots of the more exotic Eldar units, then an Autarch is the man for you. A respectable stat-line and not a bad cost, though again he's let down by a paltry T3. If you hadn't noticed, this is going to be a reoccurring - and depressing - theme.
Master Strategist: Manipulating the Reserves roll can be crucial to the success of an army that relies on lots of Reserves, especially if it has a very heavy Swooping Hawk theme as the bonus stacks if you have more than one Autarch and are intending to Skyleap a lot. I wouldn't complain too loud since on such a cheap model you're getting it for "free", but there are better abilities that he could have had in an ideal world.
Haywire Grenades: Oooh, shiny! Again they're "free", and you never know when a Tank Shock is going to come out of no-where. Don't rely on them to be your only source of Tank Killing, if you're building a Tank Killer Autarch though - 1/6 is not good odds, especially when Fusion Guns are cheap, plentiful and just better.

Now, choosing equipment for your Autarch is going to rely incredibly heavily on what he is expected to do in your army - there's no point in giving him a Laser Lance and a Jetbike if there are no other Jetbikes in your army, for example - he's just going to be shot to bits. Similarly, even with WS6, a (s3!) power weapon and a 4++ save, sending him into a melee solo will not end well.
The idea, instead, is to pick a unit for him to accompany and equip him appropriately - the following are just guidelines for what to do when you have made that choice:

Swooping Hawk Wings: ….Are NOT interchangeable with a Jump Generator, although Master Strategist only requires the Autarch to be alive - not necessarily on the table - for Sky Leaping shenanigans.
Warp Jump Generator: ….Is NOT interchangeable with Hawk Wings, if you want to use the Warp Jump feature. Which you should NEVER, EVER do without first being attached to a unit of Warp Spiders, because Instant-Death-No-Save on your Autarch really isn't funny.
Quite frankly, the Autarch doesn't need either of these things, with the sole exception of having him join the appropriate squad. Between the two, he does more for 'Hawks than 'Spiders, but you'd need a pretty spectacular plan in mind to invest so much in such a hit-or-miss unit.
Jet Bike: You don't give an Autarch a Jetbike so that he can join a unit of Shining Spears - they really don't need his help. No; you do it so that he can take a Reaper Launcher and be Relentless with it. Or occasionally, if he's hanging out with Jetbike Guardians, a Fusion Gun so that he can be there as the “I-Kill-Tanks” guy.
Banshee Mask: Your Autarch is already I6 and has both types of grenades, so there aren't many times when he won't be going first anyway. Generally he's better off with.....
Mandiblasters: What's that? A5 (+1 on the charge), probably with a Power Weapon at I6 and WS6? Okay, you're only s3, but that's still pretty funny.
Power Weapon: See above. Lots of attacks with a Power Weapon is hilarious.
Scorpion Chainsword: A reasonable alternative; most things in the game are T4-ish, so being s4 in response can be very helpful. Still, all things considered, rather than risk your opponent getting any save your best plan is to take a Power Weapon and then Doom your target so that s3 isn't such an issue any more.
Laser Lance: While very good, Lances are an expensive option, since it requires a Jetbike to pull off. Guardian Jetbikes don't want to be in Assault and will be a death sentence to any Autarch stuck with them if that happens regardless of what weapon the Autarch has; Warlock Bodyguards need to be careful as to the cost of any IC they have with them, as they very quickly become a points-sink; and Shining Spears can generally be relied upon to get the job done on their own. Generally speaking, an Autarch on a Jetbike serves you better by taking an unexpected weapon in a surprising place; Fusion Gun in Guardians, Laser Lance in Warlocks, and so on.
Avenger Shuriken Catapult: Bargain basement. Take this if you're in an incredibly low-points game and for some reason are desperate to fill your HQ slot because you don't have a Farseer model. While not a bad weapon per-say, almost anything else is a more optimised choice.
Death-Spinner: Not a fan. Why take s6 AP-, when the s8 AP1 Fusion Gun will do exactly the same job, more reliably, and also against more heavily armoured opponents? Speaking of which......
Fusion Gun: Give this to an Autarch with either 'Wings or a Jump Generator, and he becomes a very useful problem solver. Just remember to give him a bodyguard, otherwise he will instead become a priority target.
Lasblaster: No, thanks. It might be cheaper than an Avenger Catapult, but it's also not as good. No one is intimidated by s3 AP5, especially when it sarcastically leaves you in range for s4 AP5 Boltguns to retaliate.
Reaper Launcher: Highly recommended if you're on a Jetbike. Never to be used on foot - the Autarch can do far, far more interesting things than babysit a squad of Dark Reapers.

The Avatar of Khaine
"TAK" to his friends, the Avatar is - of all the units in the Codex - one of the most debated. On the one hand, he's a Monstrous Creature who is outright immune to two varieties of weapon (unique throughout the rest of the game, almost) and is something of a close combat powerhouse. On the other, he's an otherwise fairly vanilla Monstrous Creature and as such comes with most of the usual drawbacks, and he doesn't really offer very much in the way of synergy to the rest of your army.
On the plus side, he has no wargear options at all, so if you're lazy you can just throw him in as-is and just forget about it.
Daemon: Note the wording of the rule; the Avatar is "affected by weapons and abilities that affect Daemons", so that means he is easy prey for Grey Knight armies. Similarly it doesn't say that he GAINS the abilities usually associated with Daemons, and as such is not an Eternal Warrior. Which, despite T6 and 4++, sucks thanks to the abundance of Force Weapons out there nowadays.
Inspiring: Fearless isn't so great. That TAK can't ride in a transport, Deep Strike or Infiltrate - like nearly all other Assault orientated Eldar units can - means that all this usually does is stop the occasional unit of Guardians from running away, and is mostly several turns away from being used by someone that really needs it in a tricky Assault.
Molten Body: Thanks to the errata, this rule applies to pretty much anything with the "Melta" rule or that has the word "Flame" or "Fire" in it's name or description. Which is pretty cool. It does not, however, do anything against Krak Missiles or Lascannons, which are far more likely to be pointed at such a big target that has no choice but to just footslog forward and suck it up.
"High explosives and anti-tank weaponry? Curse you, meddling kids - my only weaknesses!"
~ TAK (Attributed)
All in all..... In close combat he will break almost anything and then go looking for more. The hard part is getting him there in one piece, and if you're drawn in a Tournament against Grey Knights, Imperial Guard or almost any Space Wolf player with half a brain then you may well just give him up for dead. Use him at your own risk, preferably in a casual environment.

HQ Diagnosis: Two Farseers with Runes of Warding and sharing Doom, Guide and Fortune between them - plus Mind War if you're feeling sassy – will solve an impressively large number of problems regardless of what else you take. Take an Autarch if you really, really want to Deep Strike lots of stuff, but fully expect him to get one-shot'ed soon after arriving.

Elite
Striking Scorpions
Compare these guys primarily with Howling Banshees; +1 better save, +1 attack each, resolved at +1 strength, but lacking any sort of save removal and a little slower to strike. Generally speaking, Howling Banshees are the better choice if they have a Doom-Farseer tagging along, whereas Striking Scorpions are a little more reliable if they're on their own or you're more concerned with killing hordes of 'Nids than squads of Marines.
Exarch: +12 points for a bunch of stat-line improvements, and all in the right places; Weaponskill, Attacks and Leadership. Even if you don't take any of his upgrades, it's still a solid buy if you can't quite squeeze enough free points for a whole new body.
Scorpion's Claw: A strength 6 Power Fist? Really? You're wasting your I6 and you're not causing Instant Death on anything that couldn't already be downed with lots of s4. MAYBE take it if you're desperate to glance light vehicles to death, but quite frankly that's a terrible way to be using Scorpions.
Biting Blade: With WS6 an Exarch has a reasonable chance of hitting with all four attacks (on the charge), which translates as a s8 hit. This is what you should be taking if you're worried about opening up a Rhino in order to get at the gooey insides, and it never hurts (figuratively speaking) if you run into a Something Of Nurgle that needs slapping hard.
Chainsabres: A good motto for 40k is; “If in doubt, take lots”. Even guys in Terminator Armour will go down if you throw enough s4 attacks at them, and 5pts is cheap enough if you don't want to take anything else.
Stalker: It's cheap, and if you're footslogging you will want to be sticking to cover as much as possible. Similarly, it works nicely with Shadowstrike for getting into combat safely, and quickly. Take both, or a Wave Serpent, but not one or the other.
Shadowstrike: As above, it stacks nicely with Stalker. If you think you can use it to get into Assault in the second turn (or faster) then more power to you, but if you're regularly taking longer or are fighting Mech opponents then you will instead be grateful for a Wave Serpent to break the box and keep your guys safe in the meantime. The other downside is, you can't take an Autarch or Farseer with you, and an isolated Eldar unit will very quickly become a dead one.

Again, Doom helps offset the fact that Scorpions allow their opponents a Saving Throw, but if you do that you'll have to make them walk or hitch a ride. And since you're probably going to want a large unit of Scorpions then it's going to start becoming a very expensive basket. Of Fabergé eggs.
An Autarch also has a small role in the unit, with a Fusion Gun. They all jump out of a Serpent in cover, then next turn he finds somewhere safe to leave the unit and also to Melta a nearby vehicle, giving the Scorpions something to Assault. It's a very risky tactic, as it leaves your Autarch exposed, but it's also an unexpected one. Either keep him very cheap and hide him, or feel free to give him a Jump Generator so as to make good his escape and continue to harass other nearby vehicles for the Scorpions in subsequent turns. It's not a highly recommended idea, but it is a plausible one.

Howling Banshees
Lots of s3 Power Weapons striking at Initiative “Lots”. While they would never admit it outright, Space Marine players are scared rigid by these guys girls. Offset s3 with Doom and turn that fear into pure, abject terror.
Exarch: Same applies as to Scorpions. Exarchs improve the unit's close combat ability and Banshees are a close combat unit. Always take one if you can't fit in any more bodies.
Executioner: The Eldar equivalent to a Relic Blade. While s5 isn't much to write home about, it's better than nothing – especially if you can't keep a Farseer nearby and need to take down something threatening.
Mirrorswords: Again, More Is More. Costs the same as an Executioner, so the choice between the two is rather trivial. Generally I prefer the Executioner – it's better to have 2 “very probable” kills than 4 “sometimes possible” ones,, but if your metagame is lousy with IG Troopers or Termagaunts I can forgive you for choosing otherwise.
Triskele: Surprisingly underrated, I find, but still not brilliant. Yes, s3 sucks, but you're Eldar so you better get used to it, and there's a lot to be said for inflicting a casualty or two before the charge. Even so.... I still prefer the Executioner. You're still going to go first and inflict casualties before you get struck back, you might as well be s5 and thus reliable.
War Shout: Cheap, and hitting lots helps offset not wounding much. Even if it only works once, it's done it's job.
Acrobatic: As above – it's cheap, you're going first, and it's reliable. Always take it, if only as a deterrent (although it takes a special kind of 'brave' to Assault Banshees anyway....)
Howling Banshee Exarchs are one of the few that I always recommend tooling up fully. It's cheap to do and always useful.

Banshees don't have a way of moving quickly, like Striking Scorpions, to I'd strongly recommend springing for a Wave Serpent to get them around. Banshees also love having a Farseer around,; not so much, an Autarch. You can use the same tactic that you would for the Scorpions if you like, but it's no more a good idea here than it was before. In Assault, he doesn't really add anything that you wouldn't already have from another Banshee, a couple of attacks aside for almost 4 times the cost.

Harlequins
An Ur-example of 'you get what you pay for'. Harlequins have lots that Banshees and Scorpions don't - +1 WS, +1I, +1A, and Invulnerable Save – and they're only a tiny fraction more expensive. The big hit comes from their upgrades, all of which can be worthwhile but you end up paying far too much for something comparatively unreliable.
Troupe Master: That's an awful lot of points for +1A and +1Ld. Just take another body, it ultimately serves the same purpose and more.
Shadow Seer: A worthwhile upgrade because he gives the entire squad Plasma (read: Defensive and Offensive) Grenades, which is fun. His 'Veil of Shadows' ability is especially helpful if your Harlequins are footslogging, although as with the other Close Combat Elites you're better off taking a transport if you can afford it. Still, if anyone can walk across the board, Harlequins can do it.
Death Jester: Honestly, I don't get it. He loses his close combat abilities in exchange for a Pinning Shuriken Cannon, but if you need them to have a big gun you can put two of them on the Wave Serpent and keep your points for other upgrades.
Fusion Pistol: It's worth having one in the squad on the off chance that you end up stuck behind a tank or even a Dreadnought. [i]Hit And Run out of harm's way (if necessary), Melta it and then charge who you please. Don't go overboard though – one pistol for every 5 Harlequins is plenty.
Harlequin's Kiss: In lieu of Power Weapons, Harlequins can get Rending at +4pts a piece. This is a very expensive investment; although Harlies have more attacks than Banshees, you will need a) lots of bodies and b) lots of upgrades before you can see the effect in play. Is it worth the cost? Check your metagame and see if what you want to do, can't be done cheaper and just as well by Banshees. Having said that, if you're willing to pay the bill in full, Harlequins are generally the more rounded choice to take over either Banshees or Scorpions if you don't know what to expect.

Again, Doom helps out with the Rending issue (did you know that you can re-roll a successful To Wound hit, if you really need that Rend? Well, you can!) and Fortune is often well spent on something with an Invulnerable Save. Harlies don't really need a Farseer though. As for an Autarch.... Again, he doesn't add much. The Avatar, however, likes Harlequins a lot. Veil of Shadows means that your opponent can't shoot at the Harlequins, but they still block Line Of Sight to the Avatar which gives him a much needed Cover Save. On top of that, he makes them Fearless but they can still Hit & Run at will, meaning that they should never lose an Assault except by being wiped out to the last man – which shouldn't happen because they can run away.

Wraithguard
Famous (possibly even notorious) for 3 things; Being able to one-shot Land Raiders and even old-style Monoliths with ease, being ridiculously expensive to buy as well as field, and being harder to kill than Terminators.
The ideal “Elite” version of Wraithguard (as opposed to the “Troop” setup which I'll talk about later) is 5 Wraithguard with a Warlock, and a Wave Serpent. Disembark deep in your enemy's territory and survive a frightening amount of stuff while killing whatever you shoot at. ANYTHING. Just be wary of getting tarpitted by something cheap and expendable – WS4 s5 is okay, and T6 with 3+ and Fearless will ensure that you will probably survive until the bitter end, but it'll take more time than you can afford to do so.
Warlock: Prevents Wraithsight from spoiling your day, and gives you access to either Destructor (useful if Cover Saves are annoying you) or Conceal, which makes Wraithguard extra-unkillable. Don't give him a Singing Spear – what little close combat ability he offers with 2 attacks is invaluable – and there's usually no need for Spirit Seer; Warlocks aren't independent Characters, so he isn't going anywhere.
Another particularly evil tactic is to forego the Warlock and instead have them led by a Farseer. He gets a nigh-indestructible bodyguard from where he can Doom and Mind War with impunity, and they get a Psyker within 6” and are permanently Enhance'd. Which is awesome.

Alternatively, the Autarch finds a place within Wraithguard as an anti-tarpit measure. If your unit is Fearless, and you're slicing up your enemy with a Power Weapon, only one side is going to run away. In doing this, though, you lose the Psyker – the big question is, how do you feel about a 1-in-6 chance of giving in to Wraithsight every turn?

Fire Dragons
The cheaper, more squishy alternative to Wraithguard. They favour the exact same sort of targets, though you can squeeze more Dragons into a Transport in order to offset the lower toughness and saving throw.
Exarch: Extra Weaponskill, Attacks and Initiative – everything that a squad of Fire Dragons really don't need. Polar opposite to Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons can get along just fine without an Exarch.
Dragonsbreath Flamer: Always worth taking. If you can't kill something with 9 Meltaguns, you're not going to be able to kill it with 10 either. Instead, the Flamer opens up new avenues and allows you to more effectively target different targets. Also, free.
Firepike: A Meltagun with an 18” range, but still only Meltas within 6”. Fire Dragons should either be shooting from within melta range or be completely out of Line Of Sight, not taking one random potshot.
Tank Hunters: Vaguely useful, but you've got at least 5 guys with Meltaguns and you should already be using that +d6. Another +1 here or there is of minimal use, and 15 points is too much to pay for 'minimal'.
Crack Shot: Kind of good if you've taken the Flamer (and you probably should have) even if you're only getting half the benefit, and not at all useful with a Fusion Gun. Again, if you can't kill something with 10 Meltaguns, you're probably not going to do it with 10 “and-a-half”.

Fortune is nice when you have a 3+ save, though you'll probably get better use out of Guide than Doom. Honestly though, Fire Dragons are killy enough to get away with the cheaper, single-power option. And as with Wraithguard, the Autarch is their Assault-based backup. Even so, I would recommend against that: The strength of Wraithguard is that they will not die nor run away while the Autarch does his thing, but the Fire Dragons do not have that advantage. If they get Assaulted they will probably die – don't sacrifice your Autarch to the same fate.

Elite Diagnosis: A larger squad of Fire Dragons are better than a small squad of Wraithguard in nearly every circumstance. You will find a need for a squad of Scorpions and a squad of Banshees, or two squads of tooled-up Harlequins; other combinations will leave you with glaring gaps in your line-up.

[Wraith]

Troops and Fast.

Troops
Guardians
So this is it. The hard-working, objective-taking, quadrant-denying, unspoken heroes of the Eldar army. Gods have mercy on us all.
They are very cheap, which is probably the biggest compliment that I can give them. For the same price as 5 Space Marines, you get 10 guys who have tissue-thin armour, guns that automatically puts them within Assault range of their enemy, and to top it off their main strength is the ability to take a Wave Serpent as Transport. Even that gets unceremoniously kicked in the teeth when you realise that you need a BIG blob of Guardians to give them the fire-power needed to kill their enemy and survive the subsequent charge, and once you do that you won't be able to fit them all into the Grav-Tank. Either take a lot of these guys and make them squat on your objectives, or put a few of them in a Tank and make them try to squat on your opponents', but whatever happens don't expect them to get more than one turn of shooting before they get torn apart.
Warlock: Turning a 5+ Armour Save into a 5+ Cover Save with Conceal is usually the biggest and cleverest thing you can do with a Warlock in a Guardian Squad. That way they stay alive a little bit longer, and the Warlock acts as a focal point for any nearby Wraithlord, who should be using the Guardians for a Cover Save of his own. With a big enough blob you won't need Embolden, and though Enhance might help you didn't ought to be relying on s3 Guardians to be winning Assaults for you. Feel free to give him a Singing Spear though – they have the same range limit as Shuriken Catapults, so there's an outside chance that he might even get to use it.
Missile Launcher: Since you must take a Heavy weapon with the squad, the Missile Launcher should be your default choice. It's cheap and it's multi-purpose, and as with it's equivalents in other armies you can't go wrong with it.
Bright Lance: Very expensive, by Eldar measure, and Guardians are only BS3. While it's your main source of the Lance effect, there are better ways to bust tanks to be found among the experts in your army, rather than entrusting it to these amateurs.
Starcannon: Not sure how I feel about this one. It scares Terminators, but is neither strong enough to bother tanks nor fires enough shots to be of serious concern to larger squads. If you're working to a theme and equip your army with lots of Starcannons then you might do well, but one or two dispersed among every other squad will not be as effective as Missile Launchers in the same place.
Shuriken Cannon: Again, not strong enough to bother most vehicles, and the AP means it won't worry most Troops. Instead, upgrade and take.....
Scatter Laser: Similar problems to the Shuriken Cannon, however it fires more shots. This will make up for the Guardians' poor shooting ability, and the more Saves you force on your opponent then the more they will inevitably (eventually?) fail. Take this or a Missile Launcher, and both in large numbers.
Generally, your HQ Choices can do bigger and more impressive things than actually join a Guardian unit, but there's a lot to be said for Guide on 38 s4 Catapult shots and Doom on their target – even Greater Daemons worry about that sort of thing. Alternatively, if you want to Go To Ground on your objective then Fortune-ing a 20-wound unit can be fun. An Autarch with Guardians? Again, if you're stuck in a tiny sized points game and you need SOMETHING as your HQ, but really? To them, he's just a Ld10 figurehead; to someone else, he can be much more.

Storm Guardians:
Ordinary Guardians, but with Blade+Pistol rather than short-ranged Catapult. While they suffer the usual problems of Guardians – weak strength and crappy armour – they make up for the fact that, when they get Assaulted, they can at least fight back with the weight of numbers that are needed to give them half a chance at success. Perhaps surprisingly, despite never having seen them on the table, I think that these guys are a better choice than Vanilla Guardians.
Warlock: Jump out of a Wave Serpent, Enhance your guys to I5, and have at it with as many attacks as you can muster. Again, a Singing Spear won't hurt but the important thing is not to even think about the other Psychic Powers; if you're serious about footslogging the unit then you should always be doing better than a 5+ Cover Save from Conceal, you should be in big enough numbers not to need Embolden (plus, Warlocks are Ld9) and one shot with Destructor just won't compare.
Fusion Gun: Storm Guardians differ from Vanilla Guardians in that they can take two 'special' weapons rather than one Heavy, which is actually really useful. Especially in smaller games, when Fire Dragons are a pricey investment, Storm Guardians can just about take their place for the purposes of jumping out of a Transport, breaking open an enemy Tank and then making a good attempt at either Assaulting (or being Assaulted by) whatever is left.
Flamer: One of few ways for Eldar to bust cover, I'd say that there are generally preferable to Fusion Guns. The Wave Serpent that the Storm Guardians are riding in can use its own weapons in place of the Fusion Guns, then the Guardians move in for the kill in both the Shooting and Assault phases.
Independent Characters in mind, the same applies to Storm Guardians when it comes to Farseers. Ideally you don't want him to risk his own neck by joining the unit, but sheer weight of numbers only gets better with rerolls. An Autarch can actually be quite helpful for these guys – on the one hand, he can be their 3rd Fusion Gun (if he could take a Flamer he'd be perfect, but alas...) and on the other, he throws out more attacks at even higher Initiative, meaning that less of them are going to go down when it time to face the music – exactly what the T3, 5+ doctor ordered.

Guardian Jetbikes:
Arguably one of the most iconic of Eldar units – pointy-eared Hells Angels IN SPACE. Despite their comparatively expensive cost, Jetbikes are best taken in large units. At least 6 should be your thinking – not just because they're big targets and still quite fragile (T4 is only good by Eldar standards, after all – more than half of the other races out there consider it just average) but because they're still just armed with Shuriken Catapults. If you don't kill your target outright, they're going to turn around and slap you VERY hard in response.
Shuriken Cannon: Usually a good idea, for the same reason that I said above – more shots means more dead enemies, and at the range the rest of the squad needs to be effective you can't afford to let anything of significance shoot back. If you have a lot of support from other units, all concentrating their fire on one target, you can probably forgo this upgrade without worry.
Warlock: As always, Conceal can help out. Jetbikes, however, enjoy a 3+ save and are fast enough to get out of harm's way, so I wouldn't say that it's as important in this case. Singing Spear? I'd rather have another Shuriken Cannon for the same price, rather than waste the whole unit's Shooting Phase so that one guy can have a 50/50 shot at a tank. Overall, probably best not to bother. Take more Jetbikes instead.

Dire Avengers:
What a Guardian wants to be when it grows up. They're better shots, their armour is tougher, and their weapons' range doesn't always let them get punched in the face. To be honest, if you want to take Guardians in your army then the only sensible reason as to why you wouldn't take Dire Avengers instead would be if you're desperate to have a Warlock around in order to keep Wraith-creatures under control. Dire Avengers are just, in every other way, better. And for a respectfully small mark-up in price.
Exarch: On the surface, not a great investment – like Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers seem to be all about their guns so a WS and Attacks upgrade is of little use. In practice however, it stacks with some of his other abilities to make him into a close combat character of not terrible ability IF you want to take him that way. Decide beforehand how aggressive you want the squad to be – if you need them to be VERY aggressive, perhaps if you're struggling to find room for a dedicated close combat unit like Scorpions, tool them up and go for it.
Diresword & Pistol: Essentially an inverse Force Weapon (your opponent rolls their Leadership, rather than you rolling yours) without the hassle of requiring a Psychic Test and thus all the threats that entails – Magic Hats be damned. Also note the wording: Direswords don't cause Instant Death, they just die automatically. This is not corrected in the errata. Make of that what you will, and then remember that with this upgrade the Exarch is I6 with A3. This is THE choice for the Close Combat Exarch, although it does turn the unit into a 10-wound Exarch-delivery-system. If you can live with that, then more power to you.
Power Weapon & Shimmershield: Again with the s3 Power Weapon – why not, for less price, take one that might kill your opponent outright? The 5+ Invulnerable Save in close combat for the whole squad is tempting, but really Dire Avengers should treat Assault as the killing blow after lots of shooting – if there's anything left to strike back at you, you've done it wrong!
Defend: Expensive, and as above in many ways. If there's a lot of enemy left to attack you in your turn, you've made a bad move. If you've been Assaulted by any enemy with even the smallest modicum of close combat ability, chances are that they're still going to take apart your T3 A1 unit regardless.
'Exarch' Avenger Catapult: Some people don't feel comfortable using Dire Avengers in Assault, which is fair – while they can manage it, they clearly shine while shooting. For a very small cost, the Exarch doubles his output – however, it's most efficient when you already have 10 models in the squad, as otherwise it's cheaper just to take 1 more Avenger than an Exarch+Extra Weapon.
Bladestorm: Everyone in the unit becomes Assault 3, in exchange for losing the ability to shoot next turn. Quite useful; use it then jump into a Wave Serpent and go looking for a new target so it really doesn't matter much. Sadly, it only applies to SHURIKEN weapons, so you don't get the chance to have Fusion Gun shenanigans when adding an Autarch to the squad.
Regarding what friends they should bring along, everything that applies to Guardians, applies to Dire Avengers. But more so. Not only are Guide and Doom brilliant with Bladestorm, but Dire Avenger squad sizes are conveniently perfect to fit them and the Farseer into a Wave Serpent as well. Autarchs don't do so well, though of all the things that a Dire Avenger Squad might need, either some backup in Close Combat or a Fusion Gun are probably them.

Rangers:
Eldar were doing squads of Snipers before it was cool. Although you get a lot for you money, it's also a lot of money for what you get. I wouldn't recommend making a habit of large Squads of them, when for the same price you can have 8 Dire Avengers and a Wave Serpent, but it's always funny to Infiltrate onto an opponent's objective and then sit there with a nice, cozy 2+ Cover Save.
Pathfinders: I always want to take Pathfinders instead of Rangers, but the price (almost double that of a single Space Marine Scout!) makes me want to cry. Still..... Remember how I said earlier that you are allowed to re-roll SUCCESSFUL To Hit dice if you want to, with a Guide-Farseer? Even if you don't get the 5+ you need on the second roll, you're still hitting normally on 2+. Why wouldn't you do it? Also probably the only place to put a footslogging Autarch with Reaper Launcher – you shouldn't really do that, but if you really must, he will get to do lots of fun shooting and the Pathfinders will appreciate having a guy with a Power Sword hanging around when your opponent finally works out that Assaulting will get around that Cover Save.

Wraithguard:
Ten Wraithguard and a Warlock turns your clunky Elite unit into a clunky, sluggish Troops choice. So a minimum cost of 375 points for something that you can't fit into a Transport, isn't Fleet of Foot and has only a 12” range? Once upon a time that was a really good idea, before everyone else jumped onto the Sniper/Poisoned Weapon bandwagon, but now.... This is the sort of unit you take out of audacity, and just dare your opponent to try and kill it. Hopefully they'll be outraged enough to try, and thus leave the rest of your army completely unmolested and free to do other things. Don't laugh, this works – if truth be told, I've even done it myself out of sheer hubris.
Having said that, no other unit in the game can squat on an objective and just plain refuse to move like these guys. If you want to guarantee at least one point in every game you play, 395pts (including Conceal) is the price. Alternatively, spread them out somewhere that they can't help but get Tank-Shocked and hope for the best – to Wraithguard, a 250pt Land Raider looks no different to a 40pt Rhino. Basically, Troop-Wraithguard are there for area denial, not for aggression.

Troops Diagnosis:
Everything Guardians can do, Dire Avengers can do better. Apart from ride Jetbikes. But you don't need Jetbikes if it means that you can take more Dire Avengers. Genuinely take Pathfinders instead of mere Scouts as often as possible, even if it means a smaller squad to do it. And whatever else happens, your Farseers should NEVER be too far away from your Troops – your success on the battlefield will correlate directly with how well your Psychic Powers interact with your Troops.

Transport
Wave Serpent: Eldar only have two Transport choices: “Take it” or “Leave it”. Without a doubt, they got seriously lucky that the Take It option gives them something as good as a Wave Serpent. The only possible complaint one could make is that it has no Fire Points, so your Farseer has to actually get out and do stuff every now and then, rather than Mind War people through the back window. Oh, well.
Energy Field: One of the few things in the Codex that actually got better with the new editions. Since vehicles can pivot on the spot for 'free' (previously, it came out of their movement allowance for the turn), you should never not get to use this. And it's there for free? AV12 and (usually) a Cover Save really isn't so bad all of a sudden.
Star Engines: If you're using the Serpent to Transport a squad to somewhere important, use these and do it in the first turn. If you do, there's no need for Spirit Stones – your guys are now where they need to be, and the Tank itself acting to block LoS and fire it's Heavy weapon is just a bonus. If you're actually using the tank offensively though, don't bother. You'll never use them.
Spirit Stones: Definitely has it's uses, especially if it's imperative that you get to where you need to be, but it's also quite expensive. Personally, I would work harder on learning how to make sure I always get a Cover Save or block LoS – that will prevent Stunned and Shaken results even more efficiently, and is generally just a good skill to learn for any army.
Vectored Engines: Worth taking in conjunction with Star Engines. Then again, there are a lot of things that are worth taking on a Wave Serpent, and it very quickly starts to get very silly. Of all the upgrades, this one is probably the least necessary between your Fast/Cover Save and the Energy Field all actively preventing you from going down in the first place.
Twin-Linked Weapons: Pretty much everything I said for Guardians, still applies. The only exception that I would add is that twin-linked Bright Lances are very reliable for breaking open an enemy transport. That way, the Eldar squad which has just disembarked can Shoot and Assault the enemy unit, rather than take a step in between to break the vehicle themselves. Pricey, but usually worth it.

Fast
Swooping Hawks
Unfortunately, there just isn't any way around it; Swooping Hawks are a poor unit. Their stats are average (for an Eldar – s3 and T3 again), their guns are terrible and their armour is, at best, mediocre. Sadly, 4th and 5th Edition removed what little teeth these guys ever once had.
Exarch: The only reason you'd take this guy, is so that you could also take the Intercept ability and couple it with the squad's innate Haywire Grenades – and even then you ALWAYS have better ways to kill tanks than glancing them to pieces. Otherwise, his improved stats are in all the wrong places and even his weapon upgrades are pretty woeful.
Hawk's Talon: s5 and Assault 3 is an improvement over his normal s3 Assault 2 gun, but only just. Still having AP5 means that in the vast majority of cases, he still isn't hurting anything that he couldn't already hurt.
Power Weapon: Oh God, no. Even if you can Skyleap out of trouble, you don't want these guys anywhere near a melee, if you can possibly help it. Certainly don't spend more points just to watch them lose again.
Sunrifle: If you really have to upgrade the Exarch's gun, go for this one. Assault 6 with BS5 makes up for quite a lot, but honestly? Just take more Hawks in the first place.
Skyleap: A really interesting ability; during your movement phase, even if you're locked in Assault, you can elect to remove the entire Squad from the table and place them back into Reserves, so that next turn you can roll to Deep Strike the unit again. In doing so, you can drop a s4 AP5 Large Blast weapon with infinite range anywhere on the table, and it only scatters d6”. The problem is, it's STILL AP5 – you're not going to kill anything that couldn't already be killed by a Squad of Storm Guardians, and they at least can claim an objective if they have the chance. Is it worth taking several minimum sized squads of Swooping Hawks and having them Deep Strike every other turn in order to drop their Grenades? If they could also be made into a Scoring Unit, then this would be awesome if only because you would spend half the game completely immune to enemy fire. As it stands, not at all.
Intercept: Always hit Vehicles on 4+ or better. The synergy with Haywire Grenades is obvious, and 'Jump Packs' are a good way to make sure you get some use out of them. Again, I'd argue against taking an Exarch in the first place, but if you took one then I'd recommend that you take either Skyleap or Intercept and pick your targets accordingly – not both.
Swooping Hawks with Skyleap love Autarchs with Master Strategist. Specifically because the ability stacks if you have more than one Autarch, so you will always be Skyleaping into play on a 2+. I'd strongly question the sensibility of taking two Autarchs in one army, mind; a Farseer will be far more useful to your entire army, rather than slightly helpful to one unit.

Warp Spiders
I like Warp Spiders a lot more than I do Swooping Hawks. Though they share the same common weaknesses – poor stats and lousy AP on their weapons – Spiders make up for it by being better armoured and having twice the strength in their weapons. Even their short 12” range isn't such a burden, when your Warp Jump Generator lets you run away from all but the fleetest of opponents.
Exarch: If you're feeling daring, you can get a surprising amount of mileage out of Deep Striking 10 Warp Spiders behind enemy lines, inundating the nearest unit with 20+ s6 shots and then using your guys as a delivery system for you A4, I6 Exarch. Let down as always by s3 (nothing that can't be cured by Doom, but remember you've probably Deep Struck over there because you can't reach the enemy with other weapons or powers!) but it's a deed that will always get a result of some sort.
Power Blades: See above. Like Dire Avengers, you either have to be VERY aggressive with Warp Spiders or VERY protective of them to get the better results. If you are a fan of the former, these are a good investment.
Spinneret Rifle: There are two trains of thought about Spinneret Rifles; one is that they are very useful, as having an AP1 weapon in a squad full of AP- means that you can suddenly make a decent attempt at breaking open an enemy Transport (especially since your mobility inevitably means that you can shoot at the rear). The second is that it's still only a single s6 shot, and all your other shots are mostly going to be wasted on a vehicle that is going to be glanced a lot but not destroyed if you miss or fail to penetrate. Personally I'd go for the Additional Death Spinner in order to stick to shooting Infantry, and if I had to I could still glance a Rhino into submission anyway.
Additional Death Spinner: Assault 2 becomes 4? That's pretty cool. Although I don't want to wear out a good catchphrase; More Is, again, More. There's not a lot of reason to go without this upgrade, especially if you're trying to squeeze in a few more shots and can't afford a full body.
Surprise Assault: An ability with literally no use to anyone, whatsoever, since the 5th Edition BBB states that all Jump Infantry can Deep Strike for free anyway.
Withdraw: The same as with Dire Avengers and Harlequins; if there's anything left for you to need to run away from, you have made a mistake. Although it does have a use in protecting a large (and thus, expensive) unit during your opponent's turn – if your unit is Assaulted, 3+ armour often gets you through the worst of it, and it's better to flee while wounded rather than be stuck around waiting to die later.
Hyper-aggressive Warp Spiders like having an Autarch around for easier Deep Striking and another half-dozen Power Weapon attacks. He's also available to do the same trick as for Striking Scorpions – arrive with a bodyguard, and then in the next turn separate in order to Fusion Gun a vehicle so that the Spiders can get shots at the juicy innards. From the Farseer, Spiders generally like Guide more than Doom, but you should be used to the fact by now that everyone in the Eldar army likes both is they can get it. Remember though – your Farseer shouldn't be getting as close to the enemy as the Warp Spiders do, so there's never an excuse for having him join the squad, thus holding them back and putting himself in mortal danger.

Shining Spears
A bona-fide rarity in Eldar; T4 and a 3+ save. Congratulations boys – you are 'average'! Seriously though, Shining Spears are an exceptionally dangerous unit, and both practically and thematically are my favourite of the Fast choices. Too bad they cost so much, mind; you won't see many of them in your lifetime, let alone in a single battle.
Exarch: Yep. Again, a close combat upgrade for a close combat squad. Always worthwhile for the extra attack, especially in such relatively small units.
Shuriken Cannon: I think not. You can't risk being caught in the open when you only have 5 models, and like Fire Dragons with a Fire Pike you should be either up close and doing lots of damage, or instead completely out of LoS; Are you really going to risk your entire squad for the sake of 3 rather mundane shots?
Power Weapon: Useful only if you expect to get charged a lot (Laser Lances are only Power weapons if *you* make the Assault), but between careful planning and Withdraw you shouldn't ever be Assaulted for long.
Star Lance: A good upgrade in every respect. 'Magic' s8 for killing a large variety of characters also makes Lance all the more worthwhile when you're stuck behind slow moving traffic, like Dreadnoughts. Trim it from your list only if you're desperate for points.
Skilled Rider: Just as it says in the BBB. Worthwhile, since you want to be behind cover most of the time, and you can't afford to lose even 1 guy before he gets to land his attacks to a fluky dice roll. Quite an easy decision to go without it, on the other hand, if you need to save points and you have your Lucky Dice with you.
Withdraw: Yes. Always. Never, ever leave home without it. Shining Spears MUST Assault rather than be Assaulted, and they must avoid protracted fights at all costs. 25pts might sound expensive, but compared to what it can save you, it's a bargain.
A cheap Farseer with Fortune and a Jetbike can be a nice helping hand for Shining Spears, although it's already a high value-high risk unit so be extra sure you want to make it even more costly. If you go down this route, you needn't worry about Doom or Guide – s6 takes care of a lot of problems, and you shouldn't make him yet more expensive. An Autarch on a Jetbike fills a role similar to an Exarch without the Withdraw power; lots more powerful attacks, but doesn't do anything to keep the unit alive apart from contribute one more T3 body. This is not 'great', but it is usually very amusing when it works.

Vyper Squadron
You say “Vyper”, I say “Glass cannons”. For all intents an purposes, Vypers are highly mobile weapons-platforms; their sole goal in life is to move quickly to an awkward angle from which to shoot at the enemy before someone sneezes at them and they explode into flames. In small games, taking one or to can be a (reasonably) cheap way of dealing with enemy Mech, but in larger games they tend just to be victims. When they work, they're good. When they don't work..... it must be Tuesday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlhOUyy4wbs).
Heavy Weapon: Same old, same old. Decide beforehand what the unit is going to be shooting at, and then take Missile Launchers anyway.
Shuriken Cannon: I'd rather not. The aim of the unit is to move quickly and fire it's Heavy weapon a lot. Paying for a second Heavy Weapon that you're not going to use most of the time is extortionate.
Vectored Engines: If you're in a smaller game and are only taking a few Vypers, this can be very helpful to ensure that the important part of the model – the Heavy Weapon – stays in play for as long as possible. Having said that, you're Open-Topped so your opponent is virtually never going to get a mere Glancing Hit. Effectively this becomes a 20pt upgrade to protect you from just 1 of the 6 results of being shot at – not great value.
Star Engines: Nope. Vypers are there to fire their Heavy Weapon as often as they can until they inevitably fall over; if you can't already get out of the way with a 12” move, doing anything in lieu of shooting is almost always a bad idea too.
Holo-Fields: In an ideal world, every Eldar vehicle would take these and Spirit Stones together. Realistically, you could instead just pay for another Wave Serpent from somewhere and be better served in almost every way.
Spirit Stones: You're AV10 and Open-Topped, and so can be penetrated by mere Boltguns. While yet more expense, 'Stones can either be really useful for keeping your Vehicle alive or they can be useless because they still can't fire that all-important Heavy Weapon. My expert advice is to really, really like ramming other tanks with your Fast skimmer, when this happens!
If I've given you the impression that I don't like Vypers, be assured that is only because of personal preference. At the end of the day, they are Fast Skimmers who are equipped with tank-busting AND anti-infantry defensive weapons. Taken in sufficiently large numbers and used well, they will ruin the day of any enemy you pitch them against.

Fast Diagnosis
Honestly? None of them are great. You would need a seriously good reason to ever need Swooping Hawks, even compared to all the others. Having said that, I like Shining Spears a lot as they have potential to inflict huge amounts of damage, provided that they are properly micro-managed.

[Wraith]

And finally, Heavy and Special Characters.

Heavy
War Walkers Squadron
Generally speaking, War Walkers are better Vypers than Vypers. They have a similar role – to appear quickly and unload lots of Heavy Weapons into the back or side of something that really didn't want that to happen – But War Walkers are a) a lot cheaper and b) have better ways to avoid damage other than “hope your opponent misses a lot”, in that they are not Open-Topped and that they can Scout, which essentially means “they can't be shot at in your first turn”. Having said that, like Vypers in larger games, a single War Walker is an easy target; take a full unit, or none at all.
Heavy Weapons: Note that War Walkers take two Heavy Weapons; this is not the same as having one that is Twin-Linked. As always, Missile Launchers are fun, but War Walkers take Scatter Lasers somewhere new and terrifying with 8 s6 shots per turn.
Spirit Stones: Much cheaper here than anywhere else in the Codex, it's a worthwhile investment. War Walkers, if unable to fire, can at least hide out of the way or even make an Assault with two s5 attacks, so if you're desperate then they can still achieve something. Not ideal, but better than the alternative.

Dark Reapers
Dark Reapers are awesome, a strong contender for the coveted place of “Best” Heavy choice in a slot that already boasts several of the Eldar's finest units. Hide them in some fortified ruins and watch them eat up just about any Infantry that your opponent can throw at them. Just.... don't look at the price tag. Just take them, and try not to think about it too much.
Exarch: Don't take him for his stats, take him for his upgrades. They're worth it.
Shuriken Cannon: One more shot than a Reaper Launcher, but less reliable against the vast majority of targets. And to be honest, the alternatives are so much better that it's generally not even worth considering.
Eldar Missile Launcher: The obvious thing to do is to pair this with Fast Shot. The problem is, the Tempest Launcher (also with Fast Shot) is better at taking out large groups of infantry, whereas aiming at vehicles wastes the power of the rest of your squad. It's the default 'toolbox' choice for unexpected opponents, but if you already have a dedicated anti-Tank unit like Fire Dragons, instead go with.....
Tempest Launcher: Space Marines hate this weapon, which is reason enough to take it and laugh maniacally while doing so. Using Crack Shot to leave them nowhere to hide should be mandatory, although Fast Shot can also be fun if you want to kill lots of weak stuff, rather than a smaller number of tougher ones.
Fast Shot: Fast Shot is almost mandatory, when you have the Missile Launcher. Your role is to blow up tanks, who find it much harder to find a Cover Save than Infantry so you're better off taking more opportunities to Penetrate than to hit.
Crack Shot: Alternatively, this is mandatory with the Tempest Launcher or (to a lesser extent) with Plasma Missiles, as it means that your Farseer can use his Doom elsewhere this turn and that all but the most heavily armoured of opponents probably won't get a save at all.

Wraithlord
We all know who this guy is – for nearly 10 years, the Wraithlord was considered one of the toughest and most unexplained-ly strongest creatures in the game, right up until the advent of Imperial Guard's massed Lascannons and Dark Eldar's legion of Strength X weapons. Let me repeat that: It took two whole Codices spread over two whole Editions to bring the raw, untamed power of the Wraithlord into line. They have been well and truly leashed nowadays, but that still doesn't stop them from the occasional rampage under the right circumstances.
Shuriken Catapults vs. Flamers: As a Monstrous Creature, a Wraithlord will generally find itself in Close Combat sooner or later, and so you're getting a free (twin-linked) weapon to soften up any potential tarpits that are there to slow him down. Under those circumstances, I always opt away for Flamers. At the sort of range that either weapon will get used, they will hit more enemies and will ignore cover saves to boot, something which Eldar seem to have trouble with.
Wraithblade: Probably my favourite upgrade. Wraithlord have only 2 attacks and WS4, so 50% of the time your s10 monster is swinging at air. It's so cheap that you could happily field a Wraithlord armed with just a 'Blade and nothing else; In smaller games (750 or less) this will horrify just about any opponent who has not specifically prepared to deal with it.
Heavy Weapon: You're Monstrous and you are cheap by most races' standards even after you have paid for a big gun (Wraithlord+Starcannon is the same cost as a Vanilla Space Marine Dreadnought with no upgrades or weapons, FYI). A Scatter Laser improves on what you're trying to do with your Flamers, as does a Missile Launcher, but I rarely expect to need something as 'powerful' as a Bright Lance when it's even more reliable just to punch the tank to death.
Twin Linked Heavy Weapon: This, on the other hand, does start to make your Wraithlord lean towards the expensive side for relatively little gain. Rerolling a To Hit die with BS4 isn't entirely necessary, and it makes Close Combat – the stage upon which a Wraithlord can shine – more tedious than it needs to be since you have forgone a Wraithblade. If you want something on legs with big guns, then for the same price you can just about squeeze in two War Walkers, who will have twice as many shots, and I think that's a much better choice.
Although a Monstrous Creature can't be joined by an Independent Character, pay special attention to Wraithsight. There's a 1 in 6 chance every turn that you effectively lose your Wraithlord, and Murphy's First and Second Laws are the only reliable statistics in 40k. Keep him close to a Warlock who is in a squad of his own – it'll stop your Wraithlord from even risking failure, and it'll provide him with a handy Cover Save too. After all, even T8 3+ will only protect you from so much.

Fire Prism Grav-Tank
In many ways similar to the Wave Serpent, except that it trades a carrying capacity for a really, REALLY big, multipurpose gun. It's also cheaper than it's near rival, the Falcon Grav Tank, and has a better BS. Honestly, between the two there are few reasons not to take the Fire Prism.
Shuriken Cannon: If you need to move your Fire Prism, you'll then need to fire the Prism Cannon rather than anything else. I'm not a big fan of Shuriken Cannons in general, less so in comparison to a Prism Cannon. Better to keep the Shuriken Catapults and fire them as Defensive Weapons, if you ever need to fire them at all.
Vectored Engines: If you need to move above combat speed, you've done something horribly wrong with your setup. Or your enemy has somehow managed to get the drop on you in ways that simply running away probably won't help either.
Star Engines: I will reiterate; if your main purpose is to carry a really, really big gun, you should be using it every turn. Fire Prisms don't even have the excuse that Falcons and Wave Serpents do of needing to Transport another unit, so you shouldn't need to go anywhere in that much of a hurry.
Holo-Fields: Take these, and you'll be *almost* the same price as a Falcon that hasn't taken them. I hope that it should be obvious by now which is the better choice.
Spirit Stones: As always; your main goal is to shoot your Heavy weapon, and if your opponent rolls a 1 or a 2 for damage then Spirit Stones still aren't going to let you fire regardless. Don't bother.
A quick note on Prism Cannons: Multiple cannons can contribute to each others' power, which is really cool. Although the Contributor sacrifices their chance to fire their own gun, they give the Recipient +1 Strength and +1AP for their shot, up to a maximum of (s10 AP1 Heavy 1 – requires 1 contributor), or (s7 AP2 Heavy 1, Large Blast – requires 2 contributors) The first is useful for making holes in big tanks, the second eats entire squads of Terminators. For this reason, I'd always advise taking at least 2 Fire Prisms, if you're going to take any. They're really good on their own, and together they're excellent.

Falcon Grav-Tank
I'll say this right away: I am not a fan of the Falcon. It is, for nearly all purposes, an expensive Wave Serpent with less carrying capacity, and one big + one extra-big gun rather than a twin-linked turret. It can be used in the same way as either a Wave Serpent or as a Fire Prism (that is, mobile heavy support) but, strictly speaking, is the bastard middle-child between the two. The best role for a Falcon is if you need to carry a small squad, like Fire Dragons, to their destination and then don't expect to pick them up again. Which you can also do, slightly cheaper, with a Wave Serpent anyway.
Heavy Weapon: The Pulse Laser (s8 AP2 Heavy2) is tempting, but against tough vehicles it's not as effective as a simple Bright Lance, and like the Starcannon it doesn't have enough shots to make a mess of mid-to-large Infantry units. Pulse Laser + Bright Lance or Scatter Laser (or Starcannon, if you want to really go overboard) will fix those problems, respectively, but remember it's crewed by BS3 Guardians and as such you're spending a lot of points on a bunch of 50-50 rolls. Did I already mention that Fire Prisms are BS4 and cheaper?
Shuriken Cannon: Might be worthwhile if you go down the route of using the Falcon as an extra-big Heavy Weapon Platform and you have a lot of Infantry to fight (if you take another Shuriken Cannon for the turret, like War Walkers you have two guns rather than one twin-linked one), but all in all I'm not in favour of such a big, expensive target sitting still for long enough to fire all 3 weapons. Instead, move somewhere safe, fire your turret, and repeat.
Vectored Engines: Since you're festooned with Heavy Weapons, being immobilised isn't all that bad for a Falcon, and AV12 is better than the average Eldar. Still, I'd rather spend points on Holo-Fields to make sure that the tank isn't damaged, rather than let it get damaged and try to limit the repercussions after the fact.
Star Engines: They fit with the previously described tactic – drop off a unit of Fire Dragons or perhaps a Warlock Bodyguard deep in enemy lines, and then go hunting for better targets – but after paying a lot for your big guns you are effectively paying more to be unable to use them. Unless you really, REALLY like ramming enemy vehicles (and why wouldn't you, with a 24”/s8 move, +1 for Tank and +2 for Front AV? Strength 11 attacks are totally legal, right?) I'd go without.
Holo-Fields: Expensive, but it keeps your tank alive longer than anything else it can take. If, for some reason, you've paid for a Falcon instead of a cheaper Fire Prism as you prime source of high-strength attacks, you might as well go all the way and keep it safe for a little while.
Spirit Stones: Same as for the Fire Prism. Avoid.

Support Platform
Support Platforms are an odd bunch. They're among the most outlandish of weapons in the Eldar arsenal, which gives them the advantage of surprise since there's nothing quite like them elsewhere in the game. Otherwise though, they're AV10 and crewed with Guardians so you need to keep them safe, and their effects are also specific to certain targets. Generally, you can get better results from a mob of War Walkers or a couple of Fire Prisms, but if you want to take Platforms then always take the maximum number per slot, so as to deal out the most damage and – more importantly – you give you more Guardians that you can afford to lose before they stop working.
D-Cannon: D-Cannons take everything that's wrong with a Wraithcannon and fixes it – twice the range, and a Blast template to boot. Although 24” range still isn't fantastic, it's good enough to reach any immediate threats and to have a thin line of Guardians (or, preferably, a close combat specialist) between you and them. The only thing I dislike about D-Cannons is that I can't equip one to my Wraithlord or Wave Serpent..... OR CAN'T I!? (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/w/wraithseer.pdf)
Vibrocannon: Vibrocannon are.... weird. They are, however, probably the weakest of the three varieties, since they're AP- and can only ever inflict glancing hits on vehicles (or nothing at all on Skimmers). It's one thing for it to be statistically unlikely that a weapon can't harm something, it's another entirely that it physically CANNOT do so.
Night-Spinner: S6 is fine, AP- is bad, being only a Blast (rather than Large Blast) is upsetting. There aren't all that many wonderful benefits to 48” range on the average 4'x6' table, and whatever you're aiming at D-Cannons will kill it more efficiently.
Warlock: Weapons Platforms all fire indirectly, and so should always be nestled deep in cover. This means that you usually have no need for Conceal, and quite frankly there's no use for any of the other powers. He is, in most events, an ablative wound with a 4++ save that would otherwise mean a dead crewman for the main weapons. You might take a Warlock and upgrade him to Spiritseer if you have a couple of Wraithlord lurking on your back line, but honestly if you're going down that route, you might as well forgo the charade and take a third Wraithlord. It's unimaginative, but it works.

Heavy Diagnosis: Two Fire Prisms and a squad of Dark Reapers will kill just about anything the game can throw at you, and it's not even the most expensive combination available to you. Then again, the thought of 9 War Walkers churning out 72 Scatter Laser shot per turn is..... amusing. And very nearly the same price.

Special Characters
Eldrad Ulthuan[u][b]
The most powerful living psyker in the galaxy! Well... Apart from Tiguris. And Njal. And Mephiston. And Draigo. And a bunch of unnamed Grey Knight Librarians. And a whole bunch of Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. And.... well, you get the idea; fluff isn't always the same things as crunch, and the years haven't been kind to Eldrad's carefully cultivated image. He still has a trick or two up his sleeve, but like any Psyker his main strength comes from the Powers available to him, and Eldar Powers require a lot of forward planning.
Statwise, not great – though better than most other Eldar, T4 isn't much at all, and despite an impressive 3++ save he isn't an Eternal Warrior, nor does he have much in the way of close combat prowess. Despite being a really good one, Eldrad is just like any other Farseer - Keep. Him. Out. Of. Fights.
Wargear: The Staff of Ulthamar is a trap. If you ever get the chance to use it as a weapon, you have done something horribly wrong. Don't think of it as a weapon at all, think of it as a means to using Guide or Fortune twice per turn. Otherwise, he has all the trimmings that makes him a good Farseer, insofar as we're concerned – Runes of Warding to protect your army, Runes of Witnessing are unnecessary with Ld10 but helpful when you're fighting Psychic Hoods or the Shadow in the Warp, and a Ghosthelm for when using 3 powers per turn inevitably goes wrong.
Psychic Powers: Eldrad has all 5 of the Farseer Powers, and can use 3 per turn (two of which can be the same, if you like). Functionally, this means that he is probably going to Fortune the unit that he's with and then either Guide or Doom two other units, depending on where he has ended up on the field. Always try to get off Fortune if you can; Eldrad is far too much of a valuable asset to you and your army to allow to die easily.
Divination: A great ability that has few counters outside of an all-Reserves opponent. The defensive purposes of this power are obvious, but a clever Eldar general can use this ability if they are setting up first to lure their opponent into a trap. Setup a dangerous unit somewhere that looks clever but leaves one obvious vantage point for LoS. Your opponent will try to exploit this, probably by pointing lots of missile launchers at it, only for you to move your target out of harm's way and then train your own unit of death-dealing upon your would-be assassins in turn. It will rarely work more than once against the same opponent, unless you have a really good poker face, but in a Tournament where people won't recognise your army? It's worth a go.
Where to put Eldrad..... Ideally, on the back line with a very carefully hidden unit of Pathfinders, Wraithguard (He counts, for the purposes of Wraithsight, btw) or maybe Dark Reapers. He certainly doesn't want to risk going to the front line if you can help it. Hide him away in the middle of your board where he can influence as many units as possible. Some people suggest that he benefits from being with a Warlock that has Embolden, but quite frankly I think this is overkill. By all means, if you have a Warlock squad anyway they love Fortune as much as the next 4++ unit, but don't go out of your way to give a reroll to a Ld10, Rune'd Farseer-extraordinaire.

The biggest problems with Eldrad is that he is a 'toolbox' unit in an army of very specialised units. Your instinct will be to spread him thin, trying to help out too many friendly units, but I warn you that this is dangerous. Pick a role for him, stick to it, and leave ancillary events in the hands of a second, specifically-equipped Farseer. This will also protect you if the worst comes to pass and you lose Eldrad; a second cheap Farseer with one Power and Runes of Warding might not compare to Eldrad, but it's better than nothing at all.

[b][u]Prince Yriel
Yriel is the Eldar's 'aggressive' Special Character; the one that you take if you need something specific killing quickly. Despite being very good at this role, he is a terrifyingly fragile Glass Cannon so be sure to look after him,
Stats: For a guy who is looking to go out there and get his hands dirty in a melee, Yriel hits quite a lot of the right notes. He's got plenty of attacks, is very competent and is blindingly quick on the draw. He is, sadly, an Eldar – s3 isn't a problem for once, thanks to the Spear of Twilight, but he's T3, his Invulnerable Save isn't as good as Eldrad's and he lacks Eternal Warrior. Follow the same advice with Yriel as you would with Aspect Warriors like Dire Avengers – get him into a fight by all means, but make sure that there's nothing left to hit back or you're going to come Second Best.
Abilities: Master Strategist is slightly less useful to Yriel as it is to an ordinary Autarch, in that it relies on you having lots of Deep Striking units (you probably won't, unless you're working to a non-Iyanden theme) and because Yriel can't have a 'jet pack' to join these units, where he'd be incredibly useful to them. It's there if you need it, but you probably won't.
Wargear: I7 and Plasma Grenades are lots of fun. The Spear of Twilight is awesome, and makes Yriel a boon to any other close-combat unit he joins; Tanks, Monstrous Creatures, Squads of Infantry.... Between Wounding everything on 2+, being s9 versus vehicles and a power weapon against everything else, he can take down all but the most exceptional of units, which is pretty damn impressive given that he's a Special Character over 2 Editions old and can still pose a significant threat to the Sanguinator. Mephiston.... not so much. The other drawback of the item – take one automatic wound at the end of the game, invulnerable save as normal – really isn't much to worry about. Yriel is T3 and not Eternal; during the course of a game he's either going to survive intact or he's probably just going to explode into fine red mist, with little leeway in between. So he's either going to ignore it, or be too dead to care.
The Baleful Eye is a similarly useful, though somewhat more dangerous item; while Yriel himself is immune to it, other nearby Eldar Units are not and it'd be a rare thing for Yriel to be in Close Combat alone. Either use it when you're feeling confident that Yriel can wipe out his enemy alone and then move straight into cover (Doom will almost certainly be involved) or when everything else has gone wrong, your bodyguard has been wiped out, and you haven't much else to lose. If nothing else, always try to do it only in your opponent's Turn – Yriel will survive, and if he has successfully just inflicted a fatal blow to the enemy squad then he can move freely in his own turn rather than be shot to bits in your opponent's.

Howling Banshees love Yriel, because he has a 'strength 10' power weapon. Striking Scorpions love Yriel, because he has a 'strength 10' power weapon. Harlequins love Yriel, because he has a 'strength 10' power weapon. Storm Guardians hate Yriel, because he's quite happy to use them as ablative wounds and then consider them acceptable losses when he lets loose with the Baleful Eye.

Phoenix Lords
Phoenix Lords are, in a way, 1 Special Character with 6 different outfits – they all have the same stats and are Unique choices, so the differences come just from their equipment. So, I'll give you a quick run through the similarities before I move on to the specifics and save time all around.
Generally speaking, all Phoenix Lords should be your “Second HQ Choice” - Farseers are too valuable to go without, and if you like a particular theme or just need something with a bit more bite than a Autarch then they're 'okay'. In all examples bar one (Maugan Ra/Dark Reapers) you either need a Phoenix Lord or an Exarch, but not both. Strangely, there are more Phoenix Lords (Maugan Ra and Asurmen) where you can get away without using their Aspect at all, if you really want to.
Stats: Phoenix Lords have great stats, even by the standards of most other races. They're all Eternal Warriors (Yay!) with 2+ saves (Yay!) plenty of wounds (Yay!).... but only one of them has an Invulnerable Save (Boo!) and, despite whatever Aspect they embody, all leans towards close combat rather than shooting. They're all WS7, I7, Fearless and invariably have a special Close Combat Weapon, regardless of whatever else they're supposed to do.
Disciples: When they join a Squad of their Aspect, that squad becomes Fearless. While this has it's uses, this is fairly disappointing compared to other armies; as a direct comparison to another HQ Special Character having an effect on an Elite choice, Pedro Kantor makes all Sternguard Scoring, which would be massively preferable. Note that Phoenix Lords cannot join an Aspect Warrior type that is not of their Aspect, but they can join other kinds of units – Guardians and Pathfinders, for example.

Asurmen, the Hand of Asuryan
Asurmen is the Dire Avenger Phoenix Lord. He has an Assault 4 Avenger Catapult and Bladestorm, and has a Diresword with it's own built-in Reroll and Defend, so he's really well built. He's also the only Phoenix Lord with an Invulnerable Save and represents a Scoring Troops choice, and as such is probably the most rounded of the bunch. A Fearless Troops choice, rerolling it's Saves thanks to a Farseer, will sit on an objective forever and Asurman will personally take apart anyone who tries to stop them. As such, he can sometimes be found working well with Guardians and Storm Guardians – they don't benefit from Bladestorm, but Defend still works, it's cheaper than Dire Avengers and his generically-useful wargear makes him a reasonably good General.... in general.

Jain Zar, the Storm of Silence
Howling Banshee Phoenix Lord. She has a s6 (7, on the charge) Executioner – an even better version of the best Exarch's choice – and a s5 Triskele which is an even better version of a.... well, an okay-ish weapon. She – and note, she alone – has the Furious Charge special rule. This isn't brilliant – the jump from s6 to s7 isn't as important as s7 to s8, and her Banshee Mask makes her I10 in the first round regardless of whether she charged or not – but it's okay. You can't really ask more from the cheapest of the Phoenix Lords, and she's really good at her job.

Baharroth, the Cry of the Wind
Do I have to? Really? Oh, all right then.... Baharroth is a sucky Phoenix Lord for a sucky Aspect. He is equipped with Swooping Hawk Exarch equipment, which really isn't any better for being in his hands, and definitely not for 200pts. That's basically you, paying 120+pts over the cost of a similarly equipped Exarch for Fearless and Hit & Run. On a T3 4+ unit that, should they actually be Assaulted, won't live long enough to use either. You can't even say that he makes up for his lameness by being cheap, as both Jain Zar and Maugan Ra cost less. And one-on-one, both would probably take him to pieces, if it came down to it.

Karandras, the Shadow Hunter
Of the Striking Scorpion Aspect. Actually a very good investment – he comes with a boatload of extra attacks to add to the grand total (10 Scorpions + Exarch + Karandras = 49 Attacks. Have fun!) and he is Base-S4 which not only makes his Biting Blade stretch up to s10 on a really good day (not entirely out of the question, with WS7) but also gives his Power Claw that Magic s8 if you're feeling fancy enough to use it. On top of that, he gives his unit Stealth which is incredibly useful when he also gives them Move Through Cover and Infiltrate, and as such is rightfully the second most expensive of the Phoenix Lords (and my personal favourite).

Fuegan, the Burning Lance
Somewhat lacklustre as the Fire Dragon Phoenix Lord, as he is a close combat character within a unit of shooting Troops. His Firepike is a sub-par choice for a man in his position, and though Feel No Pain isn't quite as good as a proper Invulnerable Save it will often suffice for when he brings the otherwise really useful Fire Axe to bare. Fuegan is the Phoenix Lord that wants to run ahead of his actual squad and stomp on whatever survives 11 Fusion Guns to the face, which is a dangerous proposition however you look at it. I've never met anything that has survived 10 Fusion Guns to the face outside of a 30-strong Ork Mob... And quite frankly, I wouldn't want Fuegan going after that on his own either. Generally, detach him from the squad but leave him nestled within, so as to give him a Cover Save, and then fire at different targets; Fuegan at the Tank, Fire Dragons at the Terminators (or whatever) hiding within.

Maugan Ra, the Harvester of Souls
Master of the Dark Reapers Aspect, Maugan Ra is similar to Fuegan but far more radical; he actually hates being a Dark Reaper and wants to do something – anything – else rather than sit around with them. For example; Reaper Launchers are AP3 and as such want to shoot at Space Marines. The Maugetar is AP5, and as such, does not. Dark Reapers also want nothing to do with Close Combat; Maugan Ra is I7 and has a s6 Power Weapon. So this is 'the one' where you will need an Exarch as well as your Phoenix Lord, since the latter has almost nothing to do with the former.
What do you actually do with a guy like this? Hard to say really – even though he's one of the cheaper Phoenix Lords, he's still too expensive to waste by just sitting around at the back of your table and wait to ambush anyone trying to Deep Strike or Infiltrate around your Dark Reaper Squad.... But he's pretty much perfect for it. Either that or he does the same for Wraithguard as an Autarch would – lies in wait, an ultraviolent trap waiting for anyone foolish enough to try and Assault his T6, 3+, Fearless squad of ablative wounds.......

Special Character Diagnosis: Yriel is a more dangerous - but no less fragile - version of an Autarch. Which is okay. Eldrad can just about do the work of two Farseers, and leaves you with room to take ANOTHER Farseer. Which is cool. The Phoenix Lords.... Eh. They're full of flavour, and some of them are very dangerous, but they're not really any more use than an appropriately equipped Autarch, who will inevitably be cheaper. They're "Second Choice" material, if you feel that you need to fit to a particular theme.

Except Baharroth. No one likes Baharroth.

[Cheesegear]

Spent the past few days poring over it and skimming the Interwebz for opinions and I have only one question: Celestians, what are they good for?

Since you're Sisters, you're going to be in Assault range of the enemy. It's just a fact. They're cheaper than Battle Sisters, and only slightly more expensive than Dominions (for the same amount of special weapons). The difference is, Celestians can take a Heavy Flamer, and Dominions can't. Since Dominions have been hit with the nerf bat something chronic, Celestians do have the increased stats that make them better at where they're going to be.

@Wraith, did you just copy-paste your posts, and then not copy-paste them all into one post for totally easy compiling and access?

@Ricky S, added to OP.

[Wraith]

For a justifiable reason: If I did it on one post, I hit the character limit and couldn't show any of it.

This way I'm guaranteed that a) they'll fit, and b) they'll now be right next to each other for nearly-as-easy reference.

[Renegade Paladin]

For a justifiable reason: If I did it on one post, I hit the character limit and couldn't show any of it.

This way I'm guaranteed that a) they'll fit, and b) they'll now be right next to each other for nearly-as-easy reference.
Did you actually try it? The character limit is gigantic.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Since you're Sisters, you're going to be in Assault range of the enemy. It's just a fact. They're cheaper than Battle Sisters, and only slightly more expensive than Dominions (for the same amount of special weapons). The difference is, Celestians can take a Heavy Flamer, and Dominions can't. Since Dominions have been hit with the nerf bat something chronic, Celestians do have the increased stats that make them better at where they're going to be.


I'm trying to understand this so bear with me. If I read you correctly, the Celestians should be used as a...close assault unit? Minimum squad size, heavy flamer plus meltagun/flamer? Immolator?

I'm still not sold on the idea of a non-melee specialist intentionally getting into melee. You need to be pretty confident in your positioning and the weakness of your target, no?

[Cheesegear]

For a justifiable reason: If I did it on one post, I hit the character limit and couldn't show any of it.

You do realise how big the OP is, right? And that I've written multiple guides before and haven't once hit the limit. So...Yeah.


I'm trying to understand this so bear with me. If I read you correctly, the Celestians should be used as a...close assault unit? Minimum squad size, heavy flamer plus meltagun/flamer? Immolator?

/sigh.
The entire Sisters army is close Assault. Ideally, you want your squads inside 12" (that's Assault range, even for non-Jump armies). Templates are 8-9", Meltas have a 12" range, and maximum efficiency Bolters is inside 12".

Unless you want to spam Heavy Bolters. Which doesn't quite work.

Your Sisters are going to be in Assault. Whether you want them to or not. It's a fact. It's like Dire Avengers. You might call them a shooty unit; But 8 games out of ten they're going to be in Assault by Turn 2 or 3. Same with Sisters...Except with all their units.

In short, Sisters are kind of like a He'Stan army, except with none of the staying power. And, because of that fact, most people use a He'Stan list, with 'Allied Space Marine units' and they just claim that they like the models and don't have the White Dwarves. Got Power Armour? Got Bolters? That's a Marine.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

/sigh.
The entire Sisters army is close Assault. Ideally, you want your squads inside 12" (that's Assault range, even for non-Jump armies). Templates are 8-9", Meltas have a 12" range, and maximum efficiency Bolters is inside 12".

Unless you want to spam Heavy Bolters. Which doesn't quite work.

Your Sisters are going to be in Assault. Whether you want them to or not. It's a fact. It's like Dire Avengers. You might call them a shooty unit; But 8 games out of ten they're going to be in Assault by Turn 2 or 3. Same with Sisters...Except with all their units.

In short, Sisters are kind of like a He'Stan army, except with none of the staying power. And, because of that fact, most people use a He'Stan list, with 'Allied Space Marine units' and they just claim that they like the models and don't have the White Dwarves. Got Power Armour? Got Bolters? That's a Marine.

I understand that the Sister of Battle are a close-ranged army; it was a bit hard to miss. My first post specified Celestians, and their position relative to other SOB units.

So let me reformulate the question: why would you take Celestians over Repentia for your Elite slot? As you say, Sisters will be in Assault regardless. So why not take a unit that really wants to be there?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, the other forums I lurk in basically wrote off Celestians as sub-par so I was surprised when you disagreed with that.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, the other forums I lurk in basically wrote off Celestians as sub-par so I was surprised when you disagreed with that.

Celestians are sub-par. Can't argue with that. But, as compared to Repentia...

Well, Repentia are even worse. Rage and the inability to take a Dedicated Transport is amazingly bad. Since according to the rules, if you've got Rage, you can't embark on a Transport. You can get out of one, but you can't get back in.

Repentia are overshadowed by Battle Conclaves. Which is what most people are taking. Two of them. But, as far as I know, if you want that, you're better off with Grey Knights.

But your original question was 'what are Celestians good for'; And the answer is 'not dying in Assault'. Not neccessarily winning Assault, but being a tarpit. Which you do sometimes need.

[Wraith]

Did you actually try it? The character limit is gigantic.

No - For some reason, I'm under the impression that it's something like 45,000 characters. My whole post weighs in at 85,000+, so even if I didn't just imagine that number I could probably have done it in two posts, I guess....

....Meh. I hereby retcon my previous post to say "It's split into small chunks so that people can read the bit they want without having to wade through 11 other pages of text first".... :smalltongue:


You do realise how big the OP is, right?

Yes, because the last time I posted it I cut down big chunks of it and exchanged them for hyperlinks, on the grounds that it's easier to read headings and follow links to the specific articles that you want, rather than grind through everything at once.

Okay, probably personal preference, but I think it looks neater that way. :smallsmile:

Anyways, it's done. If you would like me to write the Eldar Summary so that you can have an easy time by just copy/pasting it, then by all means say so. I'm here to help. :smallbiggrin: As far as any of you pathetic mon-keigh know, anyway..... =P

[Cheesegear]

Anyways, it's done. If you would like me to write the Eldar Summary so that you can have an easy time by just copy/pasting it, then by all means say so. I'm here to help. :smallbiggrin:

All three (three!) parts are posted to the OP. If you want to Edit in a summary into the last post (or even the first) you are free to do so. Or make a whole new post and make it four. Y'know...Because you're here to help...I think...

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Well, Repentia are even worse. Rage and the inability to take a Dedicated Transport is amazingly bad. Since according to the rules, if you've got Rage, you can't embark on a Transport. You can get out of one, but you can't get back in.

Whoa. "Steal a friendly squad's transport" is one of the tactics I see suggested to make Repentia work. Are you saying it's not even legal? That changes things.

[Cheesegear]

Whoa. "Steal a friendly squad's transport" is one of the tactics I see suggested to make Repentia work.

Normally, yes, since it works for other armies as well. However, a lot of people fail to take into account how Rage works, and the fact that Repentia have it.

[bluntpencil]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Sisters_Of_Battle/REPRESSOR-COMPLETE-KIT.html

Doesn't this vehicle turn Sisters into the ultimate mech list? It's pretty badass.

[Renegade Paladin]

No - For some reason, I'm under the impression that it's something like 45,000 characters. My whole post weighs in at 85,000+, so even if I didn't just imagine that number I could probably have done it in two posts, I guess....
Your impression is incorrect. Rawhide has said multiple times that he's set the limit arbitrarily high specifically so people don't have to do that.

[Cheesegear]

Doesn't [Repressors] turn Sisters into the ultimate mech list? It's pretty badass.

Yes and no. Not since Dominions were nerfed. Now everyone just gets to fire Boltguns out of it which is nowhere near as good as it sounds. Unless you want to go and pay points for a full ten Dominions, 3 times.

30 Dominions and 3 Repressors could work. But using Forgeworld to make your army good works for everybody. Ultimately Forgeworld is either not allowed or frowned upon, or 'If you're using Forgeworld then I can too', and there are far more broken things in the Imperial Armour books than Repressors.

[bluntpencil]

Yes and no. Not since Dominions were nerfed. Now everyone just gets to fire Boltguns out of it which is nowhere near as good as it sounds. Unless you want to go and pay points for a full ten Dominions, 3 times.

30 Dominions and 3 Repressors could work. But using Forgeworld to make your army good works for everybody. Ultimately Forgeworld is either not allowed or frowned upon, or 'If you're using Forgeworld then I can too', and there are far more broken things in the Imperial Armour books than Repressors.
It does have a heavy flamer too... and you can fire a heavy weapon too...

I'm reckoning that's pretty good, especially with Dominion squads.

But, yeah, guess you're right re: FW.

[Squark]

So, I decided to compare death star units in my two armies. Here's what I came up with

6x Canoptek Wraiths 250 pts
-3x Whip Coils, 2x Particle Casters
Destroyer Lord 160 pts
-Sempiternal Weave, Mindshackle Scarabs

vs.

5x Thunderwolf Cavalry 345 pts
-nothing
-melta bombs
-storm shield
-storm shield and meltabombs
-power fist

I'm trying to figure out which would be superior. Your thoughts?

[BoSheck]

I'm trying to figure out which would be superior. Your thoughts?

Well, my Cron-fu isn't what it could be, but I'll offer what I know and hopefully someone will correct me and I'll learn something in the process. Also I'm biased. But I'm genuinely interested in this topic, so why not contribute?

First of all your wraith-star cost nearly 20% more than the woof-star.

We'll look at mobility first: Both units can reliably threaten (and therefore control) a large area of the board. Thanks to fleet, TWC have a slightly higher threat range, at least in theory. Wraiths can bypass some stall tactics, like rhino blockades. I like the surprise threat range the cavalry provide, but that's just personal preference speaking--YMMV.
EDIT: I almost forgot. Ruins and Buildings. Lots of Ruins and Buildings make wraiths far superior.

Then offense: S6 Rending and S5 Rending both mean that light vehicles are going to be something you're capable of taking down easily. The cavalry also bring a s10 fist into the fray, which relies WAY less on luck to scrap armor and also IDs the crap out of a lot of things. Whereas wraiths have their coils to make taking down other super-units (TWC, Mephiston, big mean monstrous creatures) easy-peasy. I'd call it a wash.

Defensively, the Crons have more guys to put wounds on and Invulns all around, but as a death star one of the things you're worried about is getting shot up. A few cavalry should be able to stick their toes behind some rocks and claim a 4+, in addition to the two invulns you've mixed in, though I'd take 3++ all around over having to work at hiding any day of the week. So this comes out even enough for my tastes. What we can really address is the glaring differnece: toughness. Wraiths get ID'd by S8 and there is plenty of S8 floating around 40k, but (perhaps more importantly) they're also more vulnerable to small arms fire.

[Squark]

Then offense: S6 Rending and S5 Rending both mean that light vehicles are going to be something you're capable of taking down easily. The cavalry also bring a s10 fist into the fray, which relies WAY less on luck to scrap armor and also IDs the crap out of a lot of things. Whereas wraiths have their coils to make taking down other super-units (TWC, Mephiston, big mean monstrous creatures) easy-peasy. I'd call it a wash.

I'd question wether a Warscythe (Which is now +2 Strength) vs. a Powerfist is better at killing vehicles. S7 +2d6 Armor Pen isn't that different from S10. Let me run the math...

Armor PenetrationS10 Power Fist
Chance of penetrating AV 10: 100%
Chance of penetrating AV 11: 83.3%
Chance of penetrating AV 12: 66.7%
Chance of Penetrating AV 13: 50.0%
Chance of Penetrating AV 14: 33.3%

Warscythe
Chance of Penetrating AV 10: 91.7%
Chance of Penetrating AV 11: 83.3%
Chance of Penetrating AV 12: 72.2%
Chance of Penetrating AV 13: 58.3%
Chance of Penetrating AV 14: 55.6%

Armor Penetration+Glancing
S10 Power Fist
Chance of affecting AV 10: 100%
Chance of affecting AV 11: 100%
Chance of affecting AV 12: 88.3%
Chance of affecting AV 13: 66.7%
Chance of affecting AV 14: 50.0%

Warscythe
Chance of affecting AV 10: 97.2%
Chance of affecting AV 11: 91.7%
Chance of affecting AV 12: 83.3%
Chance of affecting AV 13: 72.2%
Chance of affecting AV 14: 58.3%

So... The Powerfist is better against transports (AV 10-11), while the Warscythe is superior for fighting walkers and heavy armor.

[BoSheck]

I'd question wether a Warscythe (Which is now +2 Strength) vs. a Powerfist is better at killing vehicles. S7 +2d6 Armor Pen isn't that different from S10. Let me run the math...

So... The Powerfist is better against transports (AV 10-11), while the Warscythe is superior for fighting walkers and heavy armor.

I think the fist also comes out ahead in # of attacks, though. As the numbers attest, penetrating isn't an issue for either--but you've got to hit. Obviously the higher WS of the lord comes in handy for fighting Walkers (ew, DCCWs...), but everywhere else you're hitting on 4s/6s. It doesn't matter for vehicles, either, but s10 is an ID machine for your team.

I'm hoping to observe some necacroni and cheese games in the next couple weeks, maybe I can get a better idea of what they can and can't do then.

[The_Final_Stand]

If Wraiths had Warscythes I would take them and nothing else. But Wraiths have S6 Rending which is pretty nice too. The Destroyer Lord that one might hide in a Wraith unit, on the other hand...

...will die the moment it engages anything that can fight back properly.
(Where "properly" means "better than S4ish I2 with Power Weapons". Which come to think of it, are the very units that Wraiths excel at slaying. And get wargear to make that I2 bit not matter. Never mind, problem solved.)

[Maquise]

I have a question as a novice, someone who hasn't actually played but is considering it in the future.

Is it possible to play an army using Black Templar rules without painting them black, and still not get wierd looks?

[Cheesegear]

Is it possible to play an army using Black Templar rules without painting them black, and still not get wierd looks?

Are you using Black Templar parts? Probably not. I mean, you can do anything you want, but, if getting weird looks is a problem...

If you aren't using BT parts, nor are you painting them black...You might need to think about painting them as a Chapter that has a reputation for being brutal; Executioners, Charc-...Space Sharks, or Minotaurs, etc. Bonus points for Executioners because they're also an Imperial Fist founding.


EDIT: Talked to a Chaos Marine player today. Interesting conversation. Apparently the meta is moving away from Plague Marines to Thousand Sons and/or regular Chaos Marines with the Mark of Tzeentch. Missile-spam Marines and 'Power Weapons For Everyone!' Grey Knights turn Plague Marines into a sad joke. You need that Invulnerable. S&P on 1K Sons doesn't really make a difference since you don't want to be in Assault anyway and anytime you do want to move, you hopefully have a Rhino or using regular Tzeentch-Marines.

Berzerkers/Khorne remains a solid choice though.
Noise Marines remain overpriced.

[Squark]

Rules questions;
a) Does initiative matter when assaulting a Vehicle (that isn't a walker)? Should the results of krak grenade attacks, for instance, be resolved before the power fist (And if the grenades wreck the vehicle, the power fist never gets a chance to punch it and blow it up)?
b) If the answer to a) is yes, if the krak grenades were to immobilize the vehicle, would the powerfist now hit automatically?

Also, I've been working on fine tuning my space wolves. Here is what I currently have (although I still need to pick up one more box of Grey Hunters. By the way, would it be possible to use some Astral Claws (13th Company version of Blood Claws) as Grey Hunters? Grey Hunters still technically have bolt pistols, after all, and I think it'd be a fairly cool look for them). I want to bring it up to 1250 points, but I currently still have 133 points left. Any recommendations on what I could use to bring it up to the full 1250, or any critiques on the list itself? Also, what sort of combi-weapon syrengizes well with an objective squatting Grey Hunters Plasma Pack?

HQ: Rune Priest Erik Whitemane 125 pts
-Chooser of the slain, Wolftooth necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman
-- Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Elites:
Wolf Guard Pack assigned to Rune Priest Erin(x4)- 172 pts
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-flamer
-Powerfist, Combi-? (Not sure what to stick with the plasma hunters)
Wolf Scout Pack Morkai's Fangs (x5)- 130 pts
-Mark of the wulfen with Meltagun, 2 Power Swords

Troops:
Grey Hunters Pack x10 (Think of name later) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
Grey Hunters Pack x10 -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
Grey Hunters Pack Paws of the Sunwolf (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasma guns

Heavy Support:
Long Fangs Pack (think of name later) -170 pts
-3 Missile Launchers, 2 Lascannons

EDIT: Possible 130 point additions;
Wolf Priest (130 points is about all you can spend on one anyway)
2nd Rune Priest (I don't like playing against the spirit of Leaders of the Pack, but that's certainly an option)
Another Wolf Scouts Pack (Problem: No Wolf Guard Pack Leader)
Autogun Dreadnaught (Taking only a single vehicle seems unwise, though)
4 Missile Fangs plus some extra wargear on the HQ (Ungh. I really don't want to have to go looking for four more Missile Launchers, though).
Giant Fenrisian wolf Pack? (Seems more silly than good)

[BoSheck]

Rules questions;
a) Does initiative matter when assaulting a Vehicle (that isn't a walker)? Should the results of krak grenade attacks, for instance, be resolved before the power fist (And if the grenades wreck the vehicle, the power fist never gets a chance to punch it and blow it up)?
b) If the answer to a) is yes, if the krak grenades were to immobilize the vehicle, would the powerfist now hit automatically?


Yep. Initiative matters, even in Vehicle assaults and you will have times where you get to immobilize a vehicle at I4 and then autohit it at I1.



I want to bring it up to 1250 points, but I currently still have 133 points left. Any recommendations on what I could use to bring it up to the full 1250, or any critiques on the list itself? Also, what sort of combi-weapon syrengizes well with an objective squatting Grey Hunters Plasma Pack?

I like to put a CML terminator wolfguard with my objective grabbing foot troops. Personal preference, but there's a utility there that you can't argue with. It will cut into your bonus points, tho!



EDIT: Possible 130 point additions;
Wolf Priest (130 points is about all you can spend on one anyway)


So real quick:
Wolf Priests are cool, but you might have trouble getting him into combat. Saga of the Hunter is ballin, large units of marines with stealth are sweet. Also fun is sticking him with Fenrisian Wolves.


2nd Rune Priest (I don't like playing against the spirit of Leaders of the Pack, but that's certainly an option)

You can't go wrong with another Rune Priest, and you can certainly gear him out to be less dodgy of Leaders of the Pack (Terminator armor, or a Saga, or make him a junior priest with no gear at all)


Another Wolf Scouts Pack (Problem: No Wolf Guard Pack Leader)
Autogun Dreadnaught (Taking only a single vehicle seems unwise, though)
[/quote
For different reasons, but both of these are probably not the right fit for your army at this point level.
[quote]
4 Missile Fangs plus some extra wargear on the HQ (Ungh. I really don't want to have to go looking for four more Missile Launchers, though).
Giant Fenrisian wolf Pack? (Seems more silly than good)

More Long Fangs are Good. Two units is enough so you can create lanes of fire and force your opponents into giving you clear shots. Fenrisian Wolves are also good filler, but I don't know if I'd take a giant pack in a serious list. Like 9 of them is the most I think I've ever taken in one pack. After that you start being able to afford really meaty units, like Terminator Lone Wolves (who can beat up major CC threats to your foot army) or full Long Fang units. Also: without the right army upgrades, their awful leadership will just see them sprinting off the board in no-time flat.

[Squark]

I like to put a CML terminator wolfguard with my objective grabbing foot troops. Personal preference, but there's a utility there that you can't argue with. It will cut into your bonus points, tho! That'd be an excellent idea if I had 5 wolf guard. Definitely something I should consider should I ever have a reason to add a 5th wolf guard.

Addition wise, here are three possible options I came up with;

Rune Priest
-Terminator Armor, Saga of the Beastslayer
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

Wolf Priest
-Melta bombs, wolf tooth necklace, either Saga of the Hunter or Runic Armor (Unfortunately, there's no Wolf Priest Model right now :smallfurious:)

Long Fangs Pack
-4x Missile Launcher
(Give Existing Rune Priest Saga of the Beastslayer and melta bombs)

GW is now releasing most of the remaining Codex: Space Marines Finecast stuff (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440160a&rootCatGameStyle=).

Personally, what I like best about the release is now all 9 first founding chapters are easily available again (They released an Iron Hands upgrade sprue). Also, that's a whole lot of Crimson Fists stuff there. Were they like the second flagship chapter (after Ultramarines) for a while or something?

[bluntpencil]

Also, that's a whole lot of Crimson Fists stuff there. Were they like the second flagship chapter (after Ultramarines) for a while or something?
They were the original flagship Chapter, I believe. On the Rogue Trader box.

Also, Astral Claws are what the 13th Company call some of their dudes?

I hope not...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astral_Claws#.T7P9k9z9OSo

These guys actually nicked a Space Wolf strike cruiser, after becoming Red Corsairs!

[Timberwolf]

Personally, what I like best about the release is now all 9 first founding chapters are easily available again (They released an Iron Hands upgrade sprue). Also, that's a whole lot of Crimson Fists stuff there. Were they like the second flagship chapter (after Ultramarines) for a while or something?

I know the 2nd ed pster boys were Blood Angels because that's when I started up first time and I can still see that box in my head. GW do love the Crimson fists though, just look at all that love for them with conversion kits whereas the poor old Salamanders and Raven Guard are still Forge World only. I'm looking at the Legion of the Damned minis and thinking "Sternguard" and "That'd look nice in a tac squad" myself.

[Cheesegear]

Personally, what I like best about the release is now all 9 first founding chapters are easily available again (They released an Iron Hands upgrade sprue). Also, that's a whole lot of Crimson Fists stuff there. Were they like the second flagship chapter (after Ultramarines) for a while or something?

You know the Iron Hands isn't new?
It used to come in a box. A Tactical Squad with a whole slough of metal bits.
lol. Crimson Fists were the first flagship Chapter. Ultramarines didn't really come around until 4th Ed.

All of the 'new releases' have been available in metal from Mail Order for a long, long time. It's just that they're Finecast now.

...Man I'm old.

[Squark]

You know the Iron Hands isn't new?
It used to come in a box. A Tactical Squad with a whole slough of metal bits.
lol. Crimson Fists were the first flagship Chapter. Ultramarines didn't really come around until 4th Ed.

All of the 'new releases' have been available in metal from Mail Order for a long, long time. It's just that they're Finecast now.

...Man I'm old.

Yeah, I knew they weren't new. But finding the metal stuff was getting increasingly difficult, so I thought it might be worth mentioning. Also, I didn't know the Crimson Fists were the original flagship chapter... Err... Why did they lose that position to the Ultramarines?

[Wraith]

Yeah, I knew they weren't new. But finding the metal stuff was getting increasingly difficult, so I thought it might be worth mentioning. Also, I didn't know the Crimson Fists were the original flagship chapter... Err... Why did they lose that position to the Ultramarines?

In the Rogue Trader era, there wasn't anything like Foundings - there were just 1,000 Chapters of Space Marines, each with their own motif but otherwise no one had rank above the others.
Of those 1,000, only 12 ever appeared in the MRB in any details - the Crimson Fists were one of them, and as such would be considered as one of the original 'Founding Legions' (along with the Blooddrinkers, the Flesheaters, the Fleshtearers, the Rainbow Warriors and the Silver Skulls, who were all later demoted to Second Founding status).

2nd Edition introduced the 18 known Legions that we use today, all with deliberately different colour schemes so as to give the game some variety - originally, 3 of the named Chapters had predominantly Red armour, 3 had predominantly Black and 3 predominantly bright blue with only helmet detail and shoulder logo to tell them apart.

Thus, the Crimson Fists were reduced to a Second Founding, because the golden Imperial Fists provided a more varied palate.

Having said that, they were never truley 'usurped' by the Ultramarines - the Second Edition Codex for 'generic' Space Marines was entitled Codex: Ultramarines, but the standard colour scheme of models in the Boxed Game were Blood Angels, who at the time were one of three Chapters (also including Space Wolves and Dark Angels) to have their own Codex with their own special rules.
Third Edition saw the Black Templars used as the 'default' Space Marine army on the box, whereas 4th Edition used a generic Imperial Skull-and-Hammer motif.
So Ultramarines have never been the 'flagship' Chapter, insofar as the Boxed Game is concerned. It's only the 2nd Edition Codices that did that, and even that wasn't as unique as you'd think. :smallsmile:

....Okay, now *I* feel old, too! :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Also, I didn't know the Crimson Fists were the original flagship chapter... Err... Why did they lose that position to the Ultramarines?

From a cynical standpoint; Because Ultramarine Blue (yes, that's actually the technical colour) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarine), is a lot of peoples' (mostly boys') favourite colour, and it's generally a good idea to market what people like.

From a common sense standpoint; Because Ultramarines are the largest, most successful Chapter, the majority of Space Marine geneseed comes from them, their Primarch was a Tactical Genius to rival Creed and wrote the Codex, which your physical Codex: Space Marines is supposedly based off of.

Although whether they are this because it just sounds cool, or they were made to have this fluff because of the first point isn't quite a real question because the answer is obvious.

...I'm kind of surprised that Guilliman and the Ultramarines are even allowed to be portrayed as how they are in the Horus Heresy novels, the HH novels takes everything Ward wrote and makes it a bad thing to do...

For shots and goggles, here's the 3rd Ed. Codex.
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic199348_md.jpg

lol...The Codex is $15. Those were the days...

[Squark]

Revised Space Wolves list

HQ:Rune Priest -125 pts
-Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf tail Talisman, Chooser of the Slain
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the world wolf

Elites
Wolf Guard Pack (x5) -210 pts
-Terminator Armor, Power Sword, storm bolter, Cyclone missile Launcher
-Combi-flamer, Powerfist
-Combi-melta, Powerfist
-Combi-melta, Powerfist
-Nothing (Point tax and ablative wound for Long Fangs)
Wolf Scouts Pack (x5) -130pts
-Mark of the Wulfen on meltagun, 2 Power swords
Lone Wolf -85 Points
-Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

Troops
Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasma guns

Heavy Support
Long Fangs Pack (x6) -170 pts
-3 Missile Launchers, 2 Lascannons
Total: 1240 pts

Any Critiques? Suggestions on what to do with the last 10 points (Give the Terminator Wolf guard a Powerfist? Give the Lone Wolf an ablative Fenrisian Wolf? Saga of the Beastslayer for the Rune Priest?)?

[Cheesegear]

Revised Space Wolves list


HQ:Rune Priest -125 pts
-Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf tail Talisman, Chooser of the Slain
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the world wolf

Wolf Tail Talisman is useless. Check what your Rune Weapon does again. Wolf Tooth Necklace doesn't synergise with the powers you have. Otherwise you probably want Fury and Thunderclap since you're going to be in combat and/or close to the enemy. Ideally you want your Priest in the Long Fang unit if you're going with those particular powers.


Wolf Guard Pack (x5) -210 pts
-Terminator Armor, Power Sword, storm bolter, Cyclone missile Launcher
-Combi-flamer, Powerfist
-Combi-melta, Powerfist
-Combi-melta, Powerfist
-Nothing (Point tax and ablative wound for Long Fangs)

Err. Only one Wolf Guard can join one unit. If you're joining the Cyclone to the Long Fangs (you should), that fifth one can't also join the unit. But, otherwise, yeah, point tax.


Wolf Scouts Pack (x5) -130pts
-Mark of the Wulfen on meltagun, 2 Power swords

K.


Lone Wolf -85 Points
-Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

No Fenrisian Wolves make Lone Wolves cry. Depite the name, Lone Wolves should never actually be alone.

Otherwise, huge waste of points. A unit of 3 Long Fangs with two Missile Launchers and a Meltagun is probably better.


Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasma guns

Looks good to me. You could drop the Wolf Standards for more Long Fangs to the above unit.


Long Fangs Pack (x6) -170 pts
-3 Missile Launchers, 2 Lascannons
Total: 1240 pts

Is that because of the models you have? Or because you thought this was a good idea? Missile-spam beats anything except walls of Land Raiders, which you should not be facing in 1250. And if you are, they'll have practically nothing else on the board, so you should shoot them with your Meltaguns. Lascannons are not a terrible choice, but they are overpriced considering the way the Space Wolves Codex works. You can get another Long Fang, and the Missile Launcher he comes with for the price of the Lascannon alone.


Saga of the Beastslayer for the Rune Priest?

A Rune Priest should always have Saga of the Beastslayer as standard. A Rune Priest should be blasting things apart with Living Lightning or Assaulting an Avatar, Daemon Prince (and shutting down that Lash nonsense), and generally, if you're within Rune Weapon range to shut down Tyranid Psychic Powers, you're probably about to be Assaulted by a Monstrous Creature.

[Hazzardevil]

Hi, you may or may not remember me from 20 pages ago, I don't need help with an army list this time, just a small question in the rules.

My codex says that tau pathfinders must select a devilfish. Does this mean 1 devilfish per pathfinder squad or 1 devilfish, all the squads I want?

[Tome]

Hi, you may or may not remember me from 20 pages ago, I don't need help with an army list this time, just a small question in the rules.

My codex says that tau pathfinders must select a devilfish. Does this mean 1 devilfish per pathfinder squad or 1 devilfish, all the squads I want?

1 Devilfish per squad.

Yes, I know, it sucks.

[Squark]

Wolf Tail Talisman is useless. Check what your Rune Weapon does again. Wolf Tooth Necklace doesn't synergise with the powers you have. Otherwise you probably want Fury and Thunderclap since you're going to be in combat and/or close to the enemy. Ideally you want your Priest in the Long Fang unit if you're going with those particular powers.It's not really useless; You can still use the wolf tail talisman's invulnerable save if you fail to stop the psychic power. But it should probably be used only as filler. Swapping the wolf tooth necklace for Saga of the Beastslayer makes sense, though.


Err. Only one Wolf Guard can join one unit. If you're joining the Cyclone to the Long Fangs (you should), that fifth one can't also join the unit. But, otherwise, yeah, point tax. I was planning to stick him with the objective squatting plasma grey hunters. But if I cut the lone wolf, I'll probably cut the 5th Guy and turn the CML guy into something cheaper.


Otherwise, huge waste of points. A unit of 3 Long Fangs with two Missile Launchers and a Meltagun is probably better.

<snip>

Is that because of the models you have? Or because you thought this was a good idea? Missile-spam beats anything except walls of Land Raiders, which you should not be facing in 1250. And if you are, they'll have practically nothing else on the board, so you should shoot them with your Meltaguns. Lascannons are not a terrible choice, but they are overpriced considering the way the Space Wolves Codex works. You can get another Long Fang, and the Missile Launcher he comes with for the price of the Lascannon alone.
The reason for the lascannons is the same reason I passed over a second unit of missile fangs; Missile Launchers are a pain in the butt to find. I could still do it, but finding 7-8 missile Launchers is not a task I'm looking forward to. As is, I'm not sure where I'm going to find the 2 or 3 I need for the Long Fangs I already have.

[Renegade Paladin]

Be friends with a Guard player. Bo sticks my spare Guard missile launchers on his Long Fangs and it looks just fine.

[Squark]

Right. Step 1; Convince friend to start imperial guard.
Step 2; Get friend to give spare missile launchers to me.
:smallbiggrin:

Still, I should do more asking around. It can't hurt. Failing that, does anyone have a good bitz store to reccomend?

[Hazzardevil]

Still, I should do more asking around. It can't hurt. Failing that, does anyone have a good bitz store to reccomend?

If by bitz you mean models, then this site (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/)is quite cheap.
It's called waylands.com
I haven't used it myself, but a friend tells me it has good service and I've checked, almost everything on there is cheaper than Games Workshop.


Be friends with a Guard player. Bo sticks my spare Guard missile launchers on his Long Fangs and it looks just fine.
I wasn't aware that guard players had so many rocket launchers. If I ever start a new army, maybe I will "liberate" some from him.

[Cheesegear]

It's not really useless; You can still use the wolf tail talisman's invulnerable save if you fail to stop the psychic power.

No. No you can't. Each power can only be attempted at once. Which means you get the 4+, or the 5+. Not both, and not one after the other. Wolf Tail Talismans are for Wolf Lords who don't have Bear (?), who charge up the middle away from your Rune Priest in the back shooting Living Lightning, and those Wolf Lords run toe-to-toe (or claw, because you're on a Thunderwolf) with Mephiston and they don't get Force Weapon'd.

[Renegade Paladin]

If by bitz you mean models, then this site (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/)is quite cheap.
It's called waylands.com
I haven't used it myself, but a friend tells me it has good service and I've checked, almost everything on there is cheaper than Games Workshop.


I wasn't aware that guard players had so many rocket launchers. If I ever start a new army, maybe I will "liberate" some from him.
Every heavy weapons team sprue has one of each heavy weapon. Unless you build all missile launchers (and therefore have no lascannons) you have lots of missile launchers left. :smalltongue:

[Squark]

No. No you can't. Each power can only be attempted at once. Which means you get the 4+, or the 5+. Not both, and not one after the other. Wolf Tail Talismans are for Wolf Lords who don't have Bear (?), who charge up the middle away from your Rune Priest in the back shooting Living Lightning, and those Wolf Lords run toe-to-toe (or claw, because you're on a Thunderwolf) with Mephiston and they don't get Force Weapon'd.

*checks*

Stupid, Stupid. I was confusing Runic Armor's function with the talisman. >.>


If by bitz you mean models, then this site (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/)is quite cheap.
It's called waylands.com

Bitz is actually the term for individual parts; like weapons, helmets, or the little extra stuff like pistol holsters, grenades, and the like.

[BoSheck]

No. No you can't. Each power can only be attempted at once. Which means you get the 4+, or the 5+. Not both, and not one after the other. Wolf Tail Talismans are for Wolf Lords who don't have Bear (?), who charge up the middle away from your Rune Priest in the back shooting Living Lightning, and those Wolf Lords run toe-to-toe (or claw, because you're on a Thunderwolf) with Mephiston and they don't get Force Weapon'd.

Yes you get both. Think FNP, but for psychic tests. They're separate abilities, granted by separate wargear that occur at different times on a player turn for different reasons AND have different effects (one cancels the power outright, one causes a power that would affect the unit or the IC to not do so). There are situations where you'll get one and then the other, provided the runestaff fails. WTT doesn't apply to every situation anyway, just when your unit is being targeted.



I was planning to stick him with the objective squatting plasma grey hunters. But if I cut the lone wolf, I'll probably cut the 5th Guy and turn the CML guy into something cheaper.

That's the proper place to put him. More missiles in one unit is supah cool and all, but the ability to throw more missiles at different targets is very important. Wolf guard on Long Fangs are so you have somebody to take a bullet (and because you wanted to dissolve your Wolf Guard pack for a Kill Point mission).

[HalfTangible]

Ok, after playing my first game with my own army (1000pt blood angels list) I came to three conclusions:

1) Necrons are AWESOME.
2) My Assault squad - especially it's powerfist - is also awesome.
3) I don't need a tactical squad, I need more assault squads and/or stronger units.

So I opened my blood angels battleforce for it's assault marines (finally) and got me some vanguard veterans. Which begs the question: what should I give them? At the moment I only have the one pack of veterans, (pretty sure there's five, but I haven't opened it yet) and they're gonna have jump packs and run with my captain (storm bolter and lightning claw)

Maybe a hand flamer for one of the vets and a power fist for the sergeant? maybe a glaive encarmine instead of the fist?... It might be a better choice, I dunno, can't find stats for the glaive in this book >.>

Rough army composition atm: Assault squad w/ melta and powerfist, Reclusiarch w/Death Company (thunder hammer), one scout squad w/snipers and a missile launcher split into two combat squads of five.

[BoSheck]

I dunno, can't find stats for the glaive in this book >.>


Glaive Encarmine should be with the Sanguinary Guard entry, IIRC. I may be thinking of Angelius Boltguns, however. Maybe both are there.

Some people are going to tell you don't play Vanguard Veterans and just get more assault marines. I have no opinion of them as I've only ever played against them from Codex: Space Marines and they were underwhelming, but what are you gonna do? Light assault unit in a shooty book is probably a trap. Light assault unit in an assaulty book is probably weaker than your other options, but maybe not.

Anyway, go with the fist and load up on melta options, Vanguard or not. It's the only way to be sure.

[Timberwolf]

Ok, after playing my first game with my own army (1000pt blood angels list) I came to three conclusions:

1) Necrons are AWESOME.
2) My Assault squad - especially it's powerfist - is also awesome.
3) I don't need a tactical squad, I need more assault squads and/or stronger units.

Maybe a hand flamer for one of the vets and a power fist for the sergeant? maybe a glaive encarmine instead of the fist?... It might be a better choice, I dunno, can't find stats for the glaive in this book >.>

Rough army composition atm: Assault squad w/ melta and powerfist, Reclusiarch w/Death Company (thunder hammer), one scout squad w/snipers and a missile launcher split into two combat squads of five.

Necrons are annoying, especially the constantly returning HQ units, but I do enjoy playing them far more with, dare I say it, Ward's new fluff. I know, I know, I'm expecting the 4Chan inquisition to beat down my door any second, but there we go. Heresy ftw.

Arrrrghhhh, the Glaive. I hate that thing. Allow me to expand.

The glaive is a 2 handed power sword that you get a single reroll for. That's it. That's what you're trading your extra attack (which when you think about iy amounts to a reroll with the possibility of more) for. It doesn't even give you plus 2 to strength, it just gives you nothing bar that single reroll. Forget it and take a normal power sword or a lightning claw or even a small wooden spoon over it in my opinion.

Vanguard are awesome in the BA Codex since they only scatter D6. This now means your thunder hammer is right where it needs to be and is assaulting. The only problem with them is how expensive they can be as it costs points to give them the jump packs. Still, for a DoA list, they're highly advised for doing such things as clearing out Long Fangs or other bits of nasty.

[Tome]

Vanguard are good if you're running a Descent of Angel list. Otherwise, best steer clear.

[Cheesegear]

What should I give [Vanguard]? At the moment I only have the one pack of veterans, (pretty sure there's five, but I haven't opened it yet) and they're gonna have jump packs and run with my captain (storm bolter and lightning claw)

Vanguard (x5) - 230 Points
Power Fist, x2 Storm Shields
Sergeant; Lightning Claw
Jump Packs

Vanguard need to stay small. 230 Points is also what it costs for a fully kitted Assault Squad, a decent sized Death Company, a Stormraven, etc. You don't want your Vanguard squads large, because at that point you should be paying points for other stuff.

You could add in an Infernus Pistol or two. But you can't shoot if you declare Heroic Intervention, whether you're in Assault range or not. Same deal with Hand Flamers. They'd be useful, if Vanguard could use them properly.

It's probably not advised to roll your Captain with them, since they lose Heroic Intervention then, which is what you're paying points for (even if you don't take Jump Packs...). If you don't plan on Deep Striking your Vanguard for some reason (then you should count them as regular Assault Marines that look really pretty), then, sure, run your Captain with them.


Yes you get both. Think FNP, but for psychic tests.

I looked in the main rulebook. I checked the FAQ. Was I going crazy? Was this some 4th Ed. rule that I've been playing with forever like an idiot? ...No. Turns out 'One Nullify per One Power' is a Psychic Hood rule, and completely separate from Space Wolves...Who cheat.

[BoSheck]

...No. Turns out 'One Nullify per One Power' is a Psychic Hood rule, and completely separate from Space Wolves...Who cheat.

Aaaaand how. *laugh* Don't forget, the Wolf FAQ specifically breaks several other rules of the main rulebook FAQ. Golden bearded-child indeed.

I remember when I first started, I read somewhere that marines make for poor rules comperhension because you ignore so many of them. I think that was just some jaded Reign of Xenos edition grognard, but who knows, my memory is fuzzy on that at least.

[Cheesegear]

Aaaaand how. *laugh* Don't forget, the Wolf FAQ specifically breaks several other rules of the main rulebook FAQ. Golden bearded-child indeed.

So, now I know that Space Wolves cheat...

Let's say I have 4 Rune Priests (because having 4 HQs is cheating, and that makes it Space Wolves), it turns out that I can actually try to nullify a power 4 times. Because Rune Weapons are not Psychic Hoods and don't cry when too many of them get together.

However, when a Space Wolf sees someone on the battlefield with the same wargear as him, he refuses to fight and demands to be taken home to change.

[Gauntlet]

Still trying to decide what new army I want to put together this year. At the moment, Imperial Guard look really strong but also really expensive. The hydra build I am looking at would be £31 each. :smallannoyed:

HQ
Company Command- 145
Meltagun x4
Chimera

Troops
Veterans- 155
Meltagun x3
Chimera

Veterans- 155
Meltagun x3
Chimera

Veterans- 100
Meltagun x3

Veterans- 100
Meltagun x3

Fast Attack
Vendetta- 130

Vendetta- 130

Bane Wolf- 135
Smoke Launchers

Heavy Support
Leman Russ- 150

Hydra Flak Tank x2- 150

Hydra Flak Tank x2- 150

---
1500

[Renegade Paladin]

There are persistent rumors of a Hydra plastic kit, but it keeps not materializing.

[Gauntlet]

I was planning to just take Chimeras and put the autocannon turrets from that scenery emplacement thing on them.

[Cheesegear]

I was planning to just take Chimeras and put the autocannon turrets from that scenery emplacement thing on them.

Maybe it's the super strong $AUD, but the Forgeworld kit is cheaper if you've got access to a credit/debit card.

[Renegade Paladin]

Maybe it's the super strong $AUD, but the Forgeworld kit is cheaper if you've got access to a credit/debit card.
The Forge World kit is £43. It had been taken down for awhile (I'd have bought one with my recent FW order if they'd been up), but it's back now. Unfortunate, really; I'd taken that as a sign that plastic kits might actually be imminent.

Also, I have the interceptor gun emplacements from the Imperial Strongpoint kit, and they're butt-ugly when you try to put them on a vehicle. The proportions are all wrong.

[Cheesegear]

It had been taken down for awhile (I'd have bought one with my recent FW order if they'd been up), but it's back now. Unfortunate, really; I'd taken that as a sign that plastic kits might actually be imminent.

That just means that they're out of stock when they take something down. FW still sell a lot of things that GW has made plastic kits for. The generic venerable Dread, and a couple of the IG tanks, for example.

[BoSheck]

Let's say I have 4 Rune Priests (because having 4 HQs is cheating, and that makes it Space Wolves), it turns out that I can actually try to nullify a power 4 times. Because Rune Weapons are not Psychic Hoods and don't cry when too many of them get together.



Naw, the Space Wolf FAQ specifically prevents such. The best you can do is get a single 3+ to cancel (Njal) and then WTT. There TECHNICALLY is nothing about multiple WTTs not triggering, though. Given I don't think I've ever had that many WTTs in one unit, but surely someone out there likes landraiders full of ALL OF THE HQs and Lukas, for giggles. Or he REALLY REALLY hates getting Doomed. Plus it should be obvious they aren't intended to work that way. Probably.

[Cheesegear]

Plus it should be obvious they aren't intended to work that way. Probably.

Common Sense isn't RAW.

[BoSheck]

Common Sense isn't RAW.

Jah jah, I used to frequent the TO and CO boards, RAW is law. Of course we all know that isn't really the case. :smallwink:

It's certainly easier to justify than some of the BS that the RAI crowd comes up with, however...and it makes a nice discussion point, as long as folks can remain civil.

EDIT: Speaking of RAW. I was doing some reading and I hadn't realized until it came up that Ulrik the Slayer's 'Slayer's Oath' (which I previously thought consistently a worse ability than the Oath of War) doesn't specify close combat attacks and merely states Attacks. He still suffers from the fatal syndrom of Not Being a Rune Priest...but might be worth re-evaluating in some practice games as a second HQ choice.

[Renegade Paladin]

The annual GW price adjustment is taking effect at the beginning of June. The owner of the local shop got the notification this evening. I don't have the numbers yet.

[Penguinizer]

Honestly, I think that's going to kill my interest. I already have two armies so I don't think I'll start a new with the prices getting silly high. :smallannoyed:

[Cheesegear]

The annual GW price adjustment is taking effect at the beginning of June.

Just in time for 6th.
Hopefully 6th doesn't change the game too much, and if it does, let's hope what's already good, stays good. WHFB 8th kept High Elves and Chaos Warriors good. So who knows?

[Penguinizer]

Here's for Chaos Space Marines getting ruleschanged to be horrible just as I finished the army (short of getting non-crappy self sculpted daemon princes). :smallannoyed:

I'm wondering if they'll pull the ever so classic move of making things that used to be good junk so you'll have to basically start from scratch like they did with the nids to a degree.

[Erloas]

My brother, now being a game shop owner, got notice of the price increase last night. But I can't say more then that because he thinks the email was wrong because it had the price of many of the boxes at a flat, much lower cost. Unless that was a % increase rather then the new cost of the box.

I didn't see the email though, he just mentioned it as he was sitting on the couch last night watching TV and reading his email on his phone.

[Cheesegear]

I'm wondering if they'll pull the ever so classic move of making things that used to be good junk so you'll have to basically start from scratch like they did with the nids to a degree.

I don't know about that one. The only thing they really did was put Warriors into Troops, and Broodlords into Troops. Carnifexes are bad (because 5th is a shooty game, not an Assault game, and MCs don't last long in shooty games). The only thing you really had to do, regardless of your army, was buy a Hive Tyrant, and your army from 4th practically stayed the same. With the addition of some new models - which is what a new edition is supposed to do.

So, I'm unclear what you mean.

[Penguinizer]

I don't know about that one. The only thing they really did was put Warriors into Troops, and Broodlords into Troops. Carnifexes are bad (because 5th is a shooty game, not an Assault game, and MCs don't last long in shooty games). The only thing you really had to do, regardless of your army, was buy a Hive Tyrant, and your army from 4th practically stayed the same. With the addition of some new models - which is what a new edition is supposed to do.

So, I'm unclear what you mean.

The previous nid codex was all about the carnifexes. Now it's all about the tervigons and carnifexes are rather awful now.

[Giegue]

I once played this game. Or tried. When I was little I tried getting into it but could not paint the things to save my life...and since Games Workshop demands that your army be painted to play....yeah. However, now that I am older and will be getting a part time job shortly, I may get into this again, espcially since I have a friend who wants to play too. I plan on buying already assembled, already painted models off of ebay and the like. I know that doing that is far more expensive then just assembling and painting them yourself, I am still horrid at the painting and want my army to look at least ok. However, I want some tips from you. Since I have been out of the loop on the game for a VERY long time, I would like to know what has become of the armies since then, and which choices are good and bad.

I know I do not want to go anything imperial, so space marines(unless their the chaos kind), imperial guard, daemonhunters ect.. are out. Out of all the armies, I absolutely love the idea behind the Necrons. Undead robots is just something too cool not to like. However, if the Necrons have suffered in the time I've been away I'd also be willing to look at the chaos space marines, chaos daemons and even the tyranids. I don't really like the Tau, their too "good guy" for me, and the same goes for the eldar. Dark Eldar just seem meh to me as well despite their evil-ness, and I've never been a fan of Orcs in any setting, including D&D.

So, dose anybody have any advice for me about army choice, given my leanings?

[HalfTangible]

I once played this game. Or tried. When I was little I tried getting into it but could not paint the things to save my life...and since Games Workshop demands that your army be painted to play....yeah. However, now that I am older and will be getting a part time job shortly, I may get into this again, espcially since I have a friend who wants to play too. I plan on buying already assembled, already painted models off of ebay and the like. I know that doing that is far more expensive then just assembling and painting them yourself, I am still horrid at the painting and want my army to look at least ok. However, I want some tips from you. Since I have been out of the loop on the game for a VERY long time, I would like to know what has become of the armies since then, and which choices are good and bad.

I know I do not want to go anything imperial, so space marines(unless their the chaos kind), imperial guard, daemonhunters ect.. are out. Out of all the armies, I absolutely love the idea behind the Necrons. Undead robots is just something too cool not to like. However, if the Necrons have suffered in the time I've been away I'd also be willing to look at the chaos space marines, chaos daemons and even the tyranids. I don't really like the Tau, their too "good guy" for me, and the same goes for the eldar. Dark Eldar just seem meh to me as well despite their evil-ness, and I've never been a fan of Orcs in any setting, including D&D.

So, dose anybody have any advice for me about army choice, given my leanings?

Yes. All you have to do for your army to be allowed is basecoat it (ie, that spraypaint) and show progress when you come in... though it may vary from store to store.

From what I've heard, Daemons are a FUN army to play, but their "deepstrike everything" deployment method makes them very hit or miss. Either they work well or they suck - usually the latter against Grey Knights, but whatever.

Orks are basically the gamer instinct incarnate: they're there to have fun. They aren't good guys or interesting in the lore but their armies are (apparently) a blast to play because everything about them is so ridiculous. (Speed Freeks Paint their trucks red and they go faster just because of the paint. No joke)

Pretty sure Necrons aren't recommended for beginners, but if you want to try it, by all means. Just be ready to lose your first few games >.>

Chaos Space Marines... I know nothing about :smalltongue:

[Teln]

From what I've read the Necrons are a solid army, but they had a massive background change with their new codex. Most people took it pretty well, but there's a vocal minority that won't let it die. Also, we're expecting 6th Edition to be released within the next six months or so.

If what I'm hearing about the price hikes is true, then now is the time to buy Space Marine vehicles, especially the Stormraven and the Land Raider family.

[Hootman]

First and foremost, I would suggest you check out the OP for this thread, as it has a lot of useful information for all kinds of armies and playing the game in general. Then, feel free to open this here spoiler for my opinions.


I know that doing that is far more expensive then just assembling and painting them yourself
The best part about this is that, based on my experience, you are completely wrong unless you want to buy Actually Professional-Grade Paint Jobs. Even buying an entire matching 2000+ point army is frequently cheaper than buying the components, and even if it were to be the same cost, the amount of time you save can be worth many times more if you're the busy sort.

Me, I don't do a whole lot and my FLGS's don't have any painted-only policies, so I take things slow. Anyways, moving on to the army...


Out of all the armies, I absolutely love the idea behind the Necrons.
Again, you are in luck. Necrons were recently updated in both rules and story, and based on what I've seen they are quite good in both casual play as well as competative. They're still undead robots who's general plan involves tearing apart the living at the molecular scale, but some of their leaders now have names and personalities and motivations beyond "Kill everything that exists"---you can take that fluff or just completely ignore it or make up your own tales (Y'know, like all fluff in this game).

They've got a lot of snazzy new models, most of which actually look pretty otherworldly and at least a little imposing, though I must admit I find a few of the designs ridiculous (Command Barges, off the top of my head). Their rules are fresh, and there seem to be a lot of strong options at any level of play below Ultra Serious Super Tournament. So, if you want them, go for it. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

[Zorg]

So... how bout them fliers, eh?

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/Linnear1701/Apocalypse/Flyers2.jpg

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/Linnear1701/Apocalypse/Flyers1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-J83bgBUO7p0/T7yRHizYRWI/AAAAAAAABKA/jRleXFFoXis/s1600/dakkajets.jpg

[Timberwolf]

Just in time for 6th.
Hopefully 6th doesn't change the game too much, and if it does, let's hope what's already good, stays good. WHFB 8th kept High Elves and Chaos Warriors good. So who knows?

My Storm Budgies had better survive this, I just got them looking how I want them.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I won't complain much if 6th ed is just 5th ed with tougher monstrous creatures. Maybe nerf feel no pain to 5+ (I play blood angels with priest spam and see this as fair).

Better medium and heavy tanks would be nice too. Current vehicle rules seem to put too much on 'quantity over quality' while I prefered the days where 'tank heavy' meant three predators.

[Penguinizer]

So... how bout them fliers, eh?

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/Linnear1701/Apocalypse/Flyers1.jpg


Behond the might Space Potato.

In all seriousness though. Beyond the potato I like the way the orc ones look. Too bad Chaos gets no love though. I'd love to see some chaos stuff without having to endlessly kitbash. Then again, I don't think I could handle it since I still have a Chimera, Land Raider and a ton of other stuff unpainted.

[Renegade Paladin]

Maybe they just didn't leak everything. I'd wait until something's actually published before jumping to conclusions on what is or is not in the release.

And yeah, the Storm Talon is butt-ugly. :smallyuk: Glad I play Guard; Valkyries at least make some sort of design sense. And also already exist. :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

The previous nid codex was all about the carnifexes. Now it's all about the tervigons and carnifexes are rather awful now.

Actually, Terivigons are pretty bad now. Remember, the meta changes every two Codecies (roughly), and you seem to be playing before Dark Eldar were released. Let alone how much Grey Knights have messed it up. Cernifexes are back to being good, because they walk around with Heavy Venom Cannons and what amounts to a Plasma Cannon.

[Renegade Paladin]

Straight from the horse's mouth. GW just revised the price revision; this version is a few minutes old and forwarded straight from the owner of my local store. Sorry for the messy copy, but I Ctrl-C Ctrl-V'd straight from the Excel sheet. Code DISCRIPTION Pack SSC BARCODE RTM USD-N
60041499028 WAR OF THE RING: BATTLEHOSTS (ENGLISH) 1 01-09-60 9781841549651 RTD $37.25
99220199035 APOCALYPSE TEMPLATES 1 40-14 5011921902682 RTD $24.75
60030101007 CODEX BLACK TEMPLARS (ENGLISH) 1 55-01-60 5011921914258 RTD $33.00
60030101010 CODEX SPACE MARINES (ENGLISH) 1 48-01-60 9781841548944 RTD $41.25
60030113002 CODEX TAU EMPIRE (ENGLISH) 1 56-01-60 5011921911493 RTD $33.00
60030202004 WARHAMMER: THE EMPIRE (ENGLISH) 1 86-01-60 9781907964688 RTD $45.50
60030207006 WARHAMMER: VAMPIRE COUNTS (ENGLISH) 1 91-01-60 9781907964275 RTD $45.50
60030209004 WARHAMMER: ORCS & GOBLINS (ENGLISH) 1 89-01-60 9781841549866 RTD $45.50
60030213002 WARHAMMER: OGRE KINGDOMS (ENGLISH) 1 95-01-60 9781907964114 RTD $45.50
60030217001 WARHAMMER: TOMB KINGS (ENGLISH) 1 94-01-60 9781841549965 RTD $45.50
60030299002 WARHAMMER: STORM OF MAGIC (ENGLISH) 1 80-04-60 9781907964077 RTD $57.75
60040199017 WARHAMMER 40,000: CITIES OF DEATH (ENGLISH) 1 40-05-60 5011921911738 RTD $37.25
60040199018 WARHAMMER 40,000: APOCALYPSE (ENGLISH) 1 40-03-60 5011921905010 RTD $57.75
60040199022 APOCALYPSE RELOAD 1 40-07-60 9781841548937 RTD $37.25
60040199023 WARHAMMER 40,000: BATTLE MISSIONS (ENGLISH) 1 40-04-60 9781841549118 RTD $37.25
60040199024 WARHAMMER 40,000: PLANETSTRIKE (ENGLISH) 1 40-06-60 9781841549316 RTD $37.25
60040202004 UNIFORMS & HERALDRY OF THE EMPIRE (ENGLISH) 1 86-02-60 9781841549279 RTD $29.75
60040206002 UNIFORM & HERALDRY OF THE SKAVEN (ENGLISH) 1 90-02-60 9781841549828 RTD $29.75
60041499013 FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING (ENGLISH) 1 02-01-60 5011921914791 RTD $37.25
60041499018 THE TWO TOWERS (ENGLISH) 1 01-07-60 5011921910465 RTD $37.25
60041499022 RETURN OF THE KING (ENGLISH) 1 01-08-60 5011921904969 RTD $37.25
60041499026 WAR OF THE RING (ENGLISH) 1 01-06-60 9781841549224 RTD $66.00
60041499029 THE FREE PEOPLES (ENGLISH) 1 05-01-60 9781907964367 RTD $28.00
60041499030 KINGDOMS OF MEN (ENGLISH) 1 04-01-60 9781907964411 RTD $28.00
60041499031 THE FALLEN REALMS (ENGLISH) 1 09-01-60 9781907964503 RTD $28.00
60041499032 MORIA & ANGMAR (ENGLISH) 1 11-01-60 9781907964558 RTD $28.00
60041499033 MORDOR (ENGLISH) 1 08-01-60 9781907964602 RTD $28.00
60049999105 BLOOD IN THE BADLANDS (ENGLISH) 1 80-03-60 9781907964466 RTD $41.25
60220299005 WARHAMMER: BATTLE MAGIC (ENGLISH) 1 80-06-60 5011921019700 RTD $11.50
99020199001 PLANETARY EMPIRES 1 40-08 5011921015559 RTD $57.75
99020299001 MIGHTY EMPIRES 1 80-03 5011921905539 RTD $57.75
99070201001 Chaos Sorcerer Lord 1 83-33 5011921995240 RTD $14.75
99070201002 Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord 1 83-34 5011921024988 RTD $14.75
99070201003 Nurgle Chaos Lord 1 83-32 5011921025701 RTD $14.75
99070202001 Captain of the Empire 1 86-22 5011921994588 RTD $14.75
99070202002 Empire Master Engineer 1 86-23 5011921030521 RTD $14.75
99070207001 Vampire Counts Necromancer 1 91-34 5011921993833 RTD $14.75
99070207002 Vampire Counts Cairn Wraith 1 91-32 5011921025329 RTD $14.75
99070207003 Vampire Counts Tomb Banshee 1 91-33 5011921025336 RTD $14.75
99070207004 Vampire Counts Wight King 1 91-31 5011921028863 RTD $14.75
99070208001 Lizardmen Saurus Oldblood 1 88-34 5011921025695 RTD $14.75
99070212001 Dark Elf Supreme Sorceress 1 85-34 5011921996155 RTD $14.75
99120101014 SPACE MARINE DREADNOUGHT 1 48-26 5011921954681 RTD $46.25
99120101030 SPACE MARINE ATTACK BIKE 1 48-20 5011921922260 RTD $27.25
99120101032 SPACE MARINE COMMANDER 1 48-05 5011921922246 RTD $22.25
99120101043 BLACK TEMPLARS CHAPTER UPGRADE 1 55-12 5011921911547 RTD $33.00
99120101047 DARK ANGELS VETERAN SPACE MARINES 1 44-09 5011921907137 RTD $33.00
99120101052 DARK ANGELS RAVENWING BATTLEFORCE 1 44-13 5011921906659 RTD $115.00
99120101058 SPACE MARINE VINDICATOR 1 48-25 5011921903399 RTD $57.75
99120101059 SPACE MARINE BATTLEFORCE 1 48-08 5011921002368 RTD $125.00
99120101061 SPACE MARINE LANDRAIDER 1 48-14 5011921003730 RTD $74.25
99120101062 SPACE MARINE PREDATOR 1 48-23 5011921003747 RTD $57.75
99120101063 SPACE MARINE RHINO 1 48-12 5011921003761 RTD $37.25
99120101064 SPACE MARINE RAZORBACK 1 48-21 5011921003778 RTD $41.25
99120101065 SPACE MARINE WHIRLWIND 1 48-22 5011921003785 RTD $57.75
99120101066 SPACE MARINES 1 35-25 5011921009251 RTD $10.00
99120101069 SPACE MARINE DROP POD 1 48-27 5011921010561 RTD $37.25
99120101070 SPACEMARINE LANDRAIDER CRUSADER/REDEEMER 1 48-30 5011921010578 RTD $74.25
99120101076 SPACE MARINE IRONCLAD DREADNOUGHT 1 48-46 5011921015986 RTD $46.25
99120101080 SPACE WOLVES BATTLEFORCE 1 53-08 5011921016617 RTD $110.00
99120101082 FORTRESS OF REDEMPTION 1 64-43 5011921017386 RTD $115.50
99120101083 SPACE MARINE VENERABLE DREADNOUGHT 1 48-32 5011921018376 RTD $46.25
99120101086 BLOOD ANGELS BAAL PREDATOR 1 41-09 5011921018512 RTD $57.75
99120101087 BLOOD ANGELS BATTLEFORCE 1 41-06 5011921018529 RTD $110.00
99120101088 STORMRAVEN GUNSHIP 1 41-10 5011921021253 RTD $82.50
99120101089 BLOOD ANGELS FURIOSO DREADNOUGHT 1 41-11 5011921021260 RTD $46.25
99120102010 CHAOS SPACE MARINE LAND RAIDER 1 43-17 5011921942510 RTD $74.25
99120102011 CHAOS SPACE MARINE RHINO 1 43-11 5011921940516 RTD $37.25
99120102012 CHAOS SPACE MARINE PREDATOR 1 43-16 5011921940158 RTD $57.75
99120102018 CHAOS SPACE MARINE BATTLEFORCE 1 43-09 5011921903863 RTD $125.00
99120102020 CHAOS TERMINATOR LORD 1 43-12 5011921903849 RTD $24.75
99120102024 CHAOS SPAWN 1 43-29 5011921903702 RTD $41.25
99120102025 CHAOS SPACE MARINE VINDICATOR 1 43-31 5011921903047 RTD $57.75
99120102027 CHAOS SPACE MARINES 1 35-31 5011921009268 RTD $10.00
99120103009 ORK BATTLEFORCE 1 50-11 5011921902422 RTD $110.00
99120103012 ORK TRUKK 1 50-09 5011921902392 RTD $37.25
99120103015 ORK BOYZ 1 35-27 5011921009275 RTD $10.00
99120103021 ORK STOMPA 1 50-15 5011921013388 RTD $115.50
99120103024 ORK KILLA KANS 1 50-17 5011921018369 RTD $46.25
99120104013 ELDAR WRAITHLORD 1 46-17 5011921909674 RTD $46.25
99120104018 ELDAR GUARDIANS 1 46-09 5011921906604 RTD $36.25
99120104022 ELDAR BATTLEFORCE 1 46-10 5011921002344 RTD $105.00
99120104025 ELDAR GUARDIANS 1 35-32 5011921009282 RTD $10.00
99120105009 CADIAN HEAVY WEAPON SQUAD 1 47-19 5011921934713 RTD $39.50
99120105014 CATACHAN HEAVY WEAPON SQUAD 1 42-08 5011921934058 RTD $39.50
99120105023 IMPERIAL GUARD BANEBLADE 1 47-24 5011921903634 RTD $115.50
99120105030 IMPERIAL GUARD CADIANS 1 35-33 5011921009299 RTD $10.00
99120105034 IMPERIAL GUARD SHADOWSWORD/STORMLORD 1 47-25 5011921013418 RTD $115.50
99120105041 IMPERIAL GUARD CADIAN BATTLEFORCE 1 47-20 5011921015627 RTD $120.00
99120105042 IMPERIAL GUARD CATACHAN BATTLEFORCE 1 42-11 5011921015634 RTD $120.00
99120105046 IMPERIAL GUARD CHIMERA 1 47-07 5011921018222 RTD $37.25
99120106003 TYRANID WARRIORS 1 51-07 5011921956586 RTD $47.00
99120106010 TYRANID CARNIFEX 1 51-10 5011921914333 RTD $53.75
99120106012 TYRANID TERMAGANTS 1 35-26 5011921009305 RTD $10.00
99120106016 TYRANID RAVENOR BROOD 1 51-11 5011921017331 RTD $47.00
99120106017 TYRANID BATTLEFORCE 1 51-05 5011921017348 RTD $125.00
99120110013 Necron Catacomb Command Barge / Annihilation Barge 1 49-12 5011921028078 RTD $37.25
99120110017 Necron Warriors 1 49-06 5011921028627 RTD $36.25
99120110018 NECRON BATTLEFORCE 1 49-17 5011921029983 RTD $115.00
99120110021 Necron Triarch Stalker 1 49-18 5011921030668 RTD $49.50
99120112010 DARK ELDAR REAVERS 1 45-12 5011921020256 RTD $39.50
99120112012 DARK ELDAR RAIDER 1 45-10 5011921020393 RTD $37.25
99120112015 Dark Eldar Razorwing Jetfighter 1 45-17 5011921022878 RTD $45.50
99120112016 Dark Eldar Talos Pain Engine 1 45-11 5011921022984 RTD $46.25
99120112017 Dark Eldar Battleforce 1 45-06 5011921022991 RTD $110.00
99120113001 TAU FIRE WARRIORS 1 56-06 5011921952533 RTD $36.25
99120113008 TAU XV25 STEALTH SUITS 1 56-14 5011921911486 RTD $26.50
99120113009 TAU PIRANHA 1 56-19 5011921911370 RTD $29.75
99120113018 TAU BATTLEFORCE 1 56-09 5011921002399 RTD $120.00
99120113019 TAU DEVILFISH 1 56-10 5011921003877 RTD $37.25
99120114001 KROOT CARNIVORE SQUAD 1 56-08 5011921952526 RTD $36.25
99120199005 BASILICA ADMINISTRATUM 1 64-31 5011921911356 RTD $33.00
99120199008 SANCTUM IMPERIALIS 1 64-32 5011921910533 RTD $33.00
99120199009 40K BUILDINGS MANIFACTORUM 1 64-33 5011921910526 RTD $33.00
99120199014 SHRINE OF THE AQUILA 1 64-39 5011921011674 RTD $41.25
99120199015 AEGIS DEFENCE LINE 1 64-36 5011921015993 RTD $29.75
99120199016 SKYSHIELD LANDING PAD 1 64-37 5011921016013 RTD $49.50
99120199017 BATTLESCAPE 1 64-40 5011921016020 RTD $29.75
99120199018 IMPERIAL BASTION 1 64-35 5011921016327 RTD $41.25
99120199023 HONOURED IMPERIUM 1 64-44 5011921018536 RTD $29.75
99120201010 CHAOS MARAUDER HORSEMEN 1 83-08 5011921010912 RTD $29.00
99120201011 CHAOS KNIGHTS 1 83-09 5011921010929 RTD $33.00
99120201012 WARRIORS OF CHAOS BATTALION 1 83-10 5011921011377 RTD $110.00
99120201013 WARRIORS OF CHAOS 1 35-28 5011921011667 RTD $10.00
99120201014 Chaos Lord on Manticore 1 83-16 5011921028740 RTD $53.75
99120202011 EMPIRE GENERAL 1 86-05 5011921907342 RTD $29.75
99120202016 EMPIRE BATTLE WIZARDS 1 86-17 5011921907267 RTD $29.75
99120202019 EMPIRE PISTOLIERS / OUTRIDERS 1 86-19 5011921907236 RTD $29.00
99120202031 Empire Celestial Hurricanum / Luminark of Hysh 1 86-20 5011921030576 RTD $53.75
99120202033 Volkmar the Grim on The War Altar of Sigmar 1 86-24 5011921030583 RTD $53.75
99120202034 EMPIRE BATTALION 1 86-08 5011921030569 RTD $105.00
99120203009 BRETONNIAN PEGASUS KNIGHT 1 82-11 5011921906536 RTD $19.75
99120203010 BRETONNIAN BATTALION 1 82-10 5011921002405 RTD $105.00
99120204006 WOOD ELF BATTALION 1 92-09 5011921002436 RTD $100.00
99120205010 DWARF BATTALION 1 84-09 5011921905591 RTD $105.00
99120206010 SKAVEN SCREAMING BELL/PLAGUE FURNACE 1 90-15 5011921016853 RTD $62.00
99120206011 SKAVEN BATTALION 1 90-14 5011921016860 RTD $115.00
99120206012 SKAVEN HELL PIT ABOMINATION 1 90-09 5011921020850 RTD $57.75
99120207008 SKELETON WARRIORS 1 35-30 5011921914432 RTD $10.00
99120207013 VAMPIRE COUNTS CORPSE CART 1 91-14 5011921002511 RTD $29.75
99120207018 Vampire Counts Black Knights / Hexwraiths 1 91-10 5011921028894 RTD $33.00
99120207019 Vampire Counts Coven Throne / Mortis Engine 1 91-09 5011921028900 RTD $62.00
99120207020 VAMPIRE COUNTS BATTALION 1 91-16 5011921028917 RTD $125.00
99120208008 LIZARDMEN STEGADON 1 88-09 5011921012572 RTD $57.75
99120208010 LIZARDMEN BATTALION 1 88-14 5011921012657 RTD $110.00
99120209007 ORCS 1 35-29 5011921914449 RTD $10.00
99120209013 ORC WARBOSS 1 89-05 5011921910038 RTD $29.75
99120209021 ORC BOAR BOYZ 1 89-18 5011921018895 RTD $29.00
99120209022 RIVER TROLLS 1 89-17 5011921018796 RTD $47.00
99120209025 SAVAGE ORC BOAR BOYZ 1 89-20 5011921021291 RTD $29.00
99120209027 ORCS AND GOBLINS BATTALION 1 89-10 5011921021314 RTD $115.00
99120210008 HIGH ELF PRINCE AND NOBLE 1 87-10 5011921904402 RTD $29.75
99120210009 HIGH ELF ARCHMAGE AND MAGE 1 87-21 5011921904396 RTD $29.75
99120210010 HIGH ELF CHARIOT 1 87-07 5011921903450 RTD $29.75
99120210011 HIGH ELF LORD ON DRAGON 1 87-11 5011921903443 RTD $53.75
99120210017 HIGH ELF DRAGON PRINCES OF CALEDOR 1 87-12 5011921020027 RTD $33.00
99120210018 HIGH ELF BATTALION 1 87-18 5011921020041 RTD $115.00
99120212002 DARK ELF COLD ONE KNIGHTS 1 85-11 5011921008728 RTD $33.00
99120212004 DARK ELF BATTALION 1 85-13 5011921008803 RTD $115.00
99120212005 Dark Elf Dreadlord on Black Dragon 1 85-09 5011921024964 RTD $53.75
99120213010 Ogre Kingdoms Battalion 1 95-10 5011921025855 RTD $110.00
99120216004 BEASTMEN MINOTAURS 1 81-11 5011921018178 RTD $47.00
99120217006 TOMB KINGS BATTALION 1 94-13 5011921022465 RTD $125.00
99120217007 TOMB KINGS KHEMRIAN WARSPHINX/NECROSPHINX 1 94-09 5011921022489 RTD $53.75
99120299011 GIANT 1 89-16 5011921911066 RTD $53.75
99120299013 WATCHTOWER 1 64-15 5011921905195 RTD $33.00
99120299014 CHAPEL 1 64-16 5011921905188 RTD $29.75
99120299018 DREADSTONE BLIGHT 1 64-46 5011921020348 RTD $33.00
99120299019 WITCHFATE TOR TOWER OF SORCERY 1 64-47 5011921020744 RTD $82.50
99120299020 Magewrath Throne and Balewind Vortex 1 64-48 5011921024933 RTD $41.25
99120299021 Eternity Stair and Dreadfire Portal 1 64-49 5011921024940 RTD $41.25
99120299023 Garden of Morr 1 64-50 5011921025411 RTD $49.50
99120299024 Skullvane Manse, Lair of the Astromancer 1 64-51 5011921027293 RTD $82.50
99121462002 Uruk-hai Scouts 1 10-08 5011921029730 RTD $24.75
99121462003 Mordor Orcs 1 08-07 5011921029754 RTD $24.75
99121462004 Moria Goblin Warriors 1 11-07 5011921029785 RTD $24.75
99121462005 Uruk-hai Warriors 1 10-07 5011921029747 RTD $24.75
99121462006 Morannon Orcs 1 08-08 5011921029778 RTD $24.75
99121463001 GALADHRIM KNIGHTS 1 02-11 5011921015948 RTD $37.25
99121463003 Wood Elf Warriors 1 05-10 5011921029761 RTD $24.75
99121463004 Galadhrim Warriors 1 05-09 5011921029815 RTD $24.75
99121464002 KNIGHTS OF MINAS TIRITH 1 06-11 5011921904167 RTD $29.75
99121464004 HARADRIM RAIDERS 1 09-16 5011921000470 RTD $29.75
99121464005 KNIGHTS OF DOL AMROTH 1 06-07 5011921018765 RTD $37.25
99121464006 MORGUL KNIGHTS 1 05-08 5011921018772 RTD $37.25
99121464007 Easterling Kataphract 1 09-07 5011921022908 RTD $37.25
99121464008 Haradrim Warriors 1 09-08 5011921029792 RTD $24.75
99121464009 Easterling Warriors 1 09-10 5011921029808 RTD $24.75
99121464010 Corsairs of Umbar 1 09-09 5011921029822 RTD $24.75
99121464011 Rangers of Middle-earth 1 04-09 5011921029662 RTD $24.75
99121464012 Warriors of Minas Tirith 1 04-08 5011921029716 RTD $24.75
99121464013 Warriors of Rohan 1 04-11 5011921029723 RTD $24.75
99121465003 Dwarf Rangers 1 05-13 5011921029679 RTD $24.75
99121465004 Dwarf Warriors 1 05-11 5011921029686 RTD $24.75
99121466001 WAR MUMAK OF HARAD 1 05-31 5011921002474 RTD $99.00
99121466002 MORDOR TROLL / ISENGUARD TROLL 1 05-07 5011921004218 RTD $41.25
99121466005 WINGED NAZGUL 1 05-34 5011921017324 RTD $62.00
99121466006 Warriors of the Dead 1 04-10 5011921029693 RTD $24.75
99121499004 THE RIDERS OF ROHAN 1 05-14 5011921941292 RTD $29.75
99121499012 WARG RIDERS 1 06-30 5011921919703 RTD $29.75
99121499016 BALROG 1 12-05 5011921920952 RTD $62.00
99121499020 ENT 1 02-08 5011921014675 RTD $41.25
99121499021 OSGILIATH RUINS 1 64-45 5011921018789 RTD $29.75
99121499024 Warriors of the Last Alliance 1 05-15 5011921029709 RTD $24.75
99121499025 Wild Wargs 1 11-08 5011921029839 RTD $18.25
99129915003 Chaos Daemons Battalion/Battleforce 1 97-07 5011921013371 RTD $115.00
99129915004 DAEMON PRINCE 1 97-24 5011921013364 RTD $41.25
99129915005 SEEKERS OF SLAANESH 1 97-16 5011921013357 RTD $29.00
99129999002 CITADEL WOOD 1 64-09 5011921905515 RTD $29.75
99129999003 ARCANE RUINS 1 64-11 5011921905461 RTD $29.75
99129999004 CITADEL GAMING HILL 1 64-07 5011921905454 RTD $29.75
99129999005 CITADEL MODULAR GAMING HILL 1 64-18 5011921905447 RTD $29.75
99129999007 TEMPLE OF SKULLS 1 64-21 5011921013999 RTD $33.00
99199999026 CITADEL FINE DETAIL 1 63-01 5011921015849 RTD $4.95
99199999027 CITADEL DETAIL BRUSH 1 63-02 5011921015856 RTD $5.75
99199999028 CIT STANDARD BRUSH 1 63-03 5011921015863 RTD $5.75
99199999029 CITADEL BASE BRUSH 1 63-04 5011921015870 RTD $6.60
99199999030 CITADEL LARGE BRUSH 1 63-05 5011921015887 RTD $6.60
99199999032 CIT SMALL DRYBRUSH 1 63-09 5011921015900 RTD $4.95
99199999033 CIT MEDIUM DRYBRUSH 1 63-10 5011921015917 RTD $5.75
99199999035 CIT STIPPLING BRUSH 1 63-07 5011921015931 RTD $4.95
99220103003 ORK BARRICADES 1 64-12 5011921008810 RTD $24.75
99220199009 UNIVERSAL TEMPLATES 1 65-04 5011921958580 RTD $13.25
99220199026 URBAN BARRICADES AND WALLS 1 64-10 5011921911660 RTD $24.75
99220199037 MOONSCAPE 1 64-04 5011921902057 RTD $24.75
99220199038 WH 40K TEMPLATES 1 65-06 5011921000340 RTD $13.25
99220199043 WH40K BASING KIT 1 66-70 5011921026128 RTD $29.75
99220299022 Walls and Fences 1 64-17 5011921905614 RTD $24.75
99220299023 MODULAR MOVMNT TRAY 1 65-21 5011921902835 RTD $16.50
99220299031 WH COUNTER SET 1 65-09 5011921019687 RTD $16.50
99220299032 WH TEMPLATE SET 1 65-08 5011921019694 RTD $13.25
99220299044 WARHAMMER BASING KIT 1 66-71 5011921026135 RTD $29.75
99221499010 WOTR INFANTRY TRAYS 1 01-15 5011921014880 RTD $6.50
99221499011 WOTR CAVALRY TRAYS 1 01-16 5011921014897 RTD $6.50
99229999041 40K BATTLEFIELD ACCESSORIES 1 64-05 5011921957125 RTD $19.75
99229999069 SQUARE BASES 1 66-19 5011921905041 RTD $10.00
99229999070 ROUND BASES 1 66-20 5011921905034 RTD $10.00
99229999073 CITADEL BATTLEMAT 1 64-06 5011921008681 RTD $33.00
99229999086 DICE CUBE (ROW) 1 65-36 5011921012466 RTD $8.25
99229999100 CITADEL WATER POT x6 1 60-07 5011921015269 RTD $5.75
99239999038 CITADEL RAZOR SAW 1 66-08 5011921903276 RTD $23.00
99239999039 SCULPTING TOOL 1 66-10 5011921903269 RTD $8.25
99239999040 CITADEL HOBBY DRILL 1 66-05 5011921903252 RTD $16.50
99239999047 CITADEL SPRAY GUN 1 66-11 5011921007943 RTD $33.00
99239999055 CITADEL CUTTING MAT 1 66-30 5011921020720 RTD $11.50
99239999057 CITADEL EMERY BOARDS 1 66-15 5011921026159 RTD $6.50
99239999060 CITADEL TOOL KIT 1 66-12 5011921028832 RTD $135.00
99800101001 COMMANDER DANTE 1 41-60 5011921023011 RTD $19.25
99800101003 EMPERORS CHAMPION 1 55-61 5011921023035 RTD $16.00
99800101004 SM CHAPLAIN W.J.PACK 1 48-63 5011921023042 RTD $19.25
99800101007 D.A COMPANY MASTER 1 44-60 5011921023073 RTD $19.25
99800101010 CAPTAIN SICARIUS 1 48-60 5011921023103 RTD $19.25
99800101012 ASTORATH THE GRIM 1 41-61 5011921023127 RTD $21.50
99800102003 HURON BLACKHEART 1 43-61 5011921023158 RTD $19.25
99800103005 ORK PAINBOY 1 50-65 5011921023202 RTD $19.25
99800104003 AUTARCH W.POWER WPN 1 46-61 5011921023257 RTD $19.25
99800104004 THE AVATAR OF KHAINE 1 46-62 5011921023264 RTD $40.00
99800104014 DEATH JESTER 1 46-63 5011921024919 RTD $19.25
99800104015 HARLEQUIN SHADOWSEER 1 46-64 5011921024926 RTD $19.25
99800105001 COMMISSAR YARRICK 1 47-61 5011921023271 RTD $19.25
99800105003 I.GUARD COMMISSAR 1 47-63 5011921023295 RTD $16.00
99800105005 LORD CASTELLAN CREED 1 47-60 5011921023820 RTD $19.25
99800105006 COLOUR SERGEANT KELL 1 47-62 5011921024902 RTD $21.50
99800107003 CASTELLAN CROWE 1 57-62 5011921023394 RTD $19.25
99800107005 INQUISITOR COTEAZ 1 57-63 5011921023837 RTD $19.25
99800110002 NECRON LORD RES ORB 1 49-61 5011921023424 RTD $16.00
99800110006 IMOTEKH THE STORMLRD 1 49-63 5011921028214 RTD $19.25
99800110007 NECRON OVERLORD 1 49-60 5011921028238 RTD $19.25
99800110008 NECRON CRYPTEK 1 49-62 5011921028221 RTD $16.00
99800110009 TRAZYN THE INFINITE 1 49-65 5011921028245 RTD $19.25
99800112001 DARK ELDAR ARCHON 1 45-60 5011921023431 RTD $16.00
99800112002 LELITH HESPERAX 1 45-64 5011921023448 RTD $19.25
99800112003 URIEN RAKARTH 1 45-63 5011921023455 RTD $19.25
99800112004 DARK ELDAR SUCCUBUS 1 45-61 5011921023462 RTD $16.00
99800112008 D/ELDAR HAEMONCULUS 1 45-62 5011921025008 RTD $19.25
99800112010 D.E UR-GHUL 1 45-65 5011921025466 RTD $16.00
99800112011 D.E MEDUSAE 1 45-66 5011921025435 RTD $16.00
99800112012 DARK ELDAR LHAMAEAN 1 45-67 5011921025633 RTD $16.00
99800112013 DARK ELDAR SSLYTH 1 45-68 5011921025640 RTD $16.00
99800113002 ETHEREAL HONOUR BLDE 1 56-60 5011921023486 RTD $16.00
99800201001 CHAOS EXALTED HERO 1 83-62 5011921023493 RTD $16.00
99800201002 KHORNE EXALTED HERO 1 83-63 5011921023509 RTD $19.25
99800202001 CAPTAIN W.HAMMER 1 86-60 5011921023516 RTD $16.00
99800204001 HIGHBORN W.GREAT WEP 1 92-60 5011921023578 RTD $16.00
99800204002 SPELLWEAVER W. STAFF 1 92-61 5011921023585 RTD $19.25
99800205001 DWARF LORD W.HAMMER 1 84-60 5011921023615 RTD $16.00
99800205002 DWARF RUNELORD 1 84-61 5011921023622 RTD $16.00
99800205003 DWARF ENGINEER 1 84-62 5011921023639 RTD $16.00
99800205009 DWARF ARMY STANDARD 1 84-63 5011921023844 RTD $19.25
99800206001 SKAVEN WARLORD 1 90-60 5011921023646 RTD $16.00
99800206005 QUEEK HEADTAKER 1 90-61 5011921023684 RTD $19.25
99800206006 DEATHMASTER SNIKCH 1 90-62 5011921023691 RTD $19.25
99800207002 VAMPIRE LORD 1 91-61 5011921023769 RTD $16.00
99800207003 VLAD VON CARSTEIN 1 91-62 5011921023776 RTD $19.25
99800207007 KONRAD VON CARSTEIN 1 91-63 5011921025534 RTD $19.25
99800207008 ISABELLA V. CARSTEIN 1 91-64 5011921028856 RTD $16.00
99800207009 KRELL LORD UNDEATH 1 91-65 5011921028870 RTD $19.25
99800209002 GRIMGOR IRONHIDE 1 89-60 5011921023813 RTD $19.25
99800209003 BLACK ORC BIG BOSS 1 89-62 5011921023851 RTD $19.25
99800210001 CARADRYAN 1 87-60 5011921023875 RTD $19.25
99800210002 KORHIL 1 87-61 5011921023882 RTD $19.25
99800212002 DARK ELF DREADLORD 1 85-60 5011921023905 RTD $26.75
99800212004 D.E ASASSIN W.2HWEPS 1 85-61 5011921025022 RTD $16.00
99800213006 BRAGG THE GUTSMAN 1 95-60 5011921025848 RTD $40.00
99800217001 T/KING LICHE PRIEST 1 94-61 5011921023745 RTD $16.00
99800217002 TOMB KINGS NECROTECT 1 94-62 5011921024049 RTD $16.00
99800217005 PRINCE APOPHAS 1 94-63 5011921025381 RTD $19.25
99800217007 TOMB KING GRT WEAPON 1 94-60 5011921025398 RTD $16.00
99801462001 URUK-HAI W.CROSSBOWS 1 10-61 5011921024063 RTD $26.50
99801462002 URUK-HAI BERSERKERS 1 10-62 5011921024056 RTD $26.50
99801462007 GOTHMOG (PELENNOR) 1 08-61 5011921023950 RTD $36.25
99801462009 GRÔBLOG 1 11-60 5011921029518 RTD $16.50
99801463001 ELROND AND GIL-GALAD 1 05-60 5011921023967 RTD $29.75
99801464004 SARUMAN AND GRIMA 1 10-60 5011921024018 RTD $29.75
99801464005 GANDALF THE WHITE 1 02-60 5011921024087 RTD $36.25
99801464006 ARAGORN (BLACK GATE) 1 04-60 5011921024094 RTD $36.25
99801464007 THEODEN (HELMS DEEP) 1 04-62 5011921024100 RTD $36.25
99801464011 BOROMIR (ITHILIEN) 1 04-61 5011921024117 RTD $36.25
99801464012 SULADAN SERPENT LORD 1 09-60 5011921024124 RTD $36.25
99801464014 THE DARK MARSHAL 1 08-62 5011921024148 RTD $36.25
99801464015 AMDÛR LORD OF BLADES 1 09-62 5011921026111 RTD $36.25
99801464016 EASTERLING DRAGON KN 1 09-63 5011921027309 RTD $24.75
99801464017 KHAMÛL (RINGWRAITH) 1 09-61 5011921027316 RTD $36.25
99801464018 EASTERLING WAR PRIES 1 09-64 5011921027323 RTD $24.75
99801465002 DWARF IRON GUARD 1 05-62 5011921024070 RTD $26.50
99801465003 VAULT WARDEN TEAM 1 05-63 5011921024162 RTD $16.50
99801465004 DAIN AND BALIN 1 05-61 5011921025367 RTD $29.75
99801466001 WITCH-KING OF ANGMAR 1 08-60 5011921024179 RTD $36.25
99809915002 THE CHANGELING 1 97-61 5011921024032 RTD $19.25
99810101013 CALGAR & HON. GUARD 1 48-40 5011921024292 RTD $59.00
99810102004 NURGLE DAEMON PRINCE 1 43-40 5011921024377 RTD $37.25
99810103008 GHAZGHKULL THRAKA 1 50-40 5011921024407 RTD $40.00
99810103010 MEK W. SHOKK GUN 1 50-42 5011921024230 RTD $40.00
99810104006 ELDAR DARK REAPERS 1 46-42 5011921024568 RTD $41.25
99810104007 STRIKING SCORPIONS 1 46-44 5011921024629 RTD $41.25
99810104008 ELDAR WARP SPIDERS 1 46-43 5011921024636 RTD $41.25
99810104009 HOWLING BANSHEES 1 46-45 5011921024674 RTD $41.25
99810104010 SWOOPING HAWKS 1 46-47 5011921024681 RTD $41.25
99810104011 ELDAR FIRE DRAGONS 1 46-46 5011921024698 RTD $41.25
99810104013 HARLEQUIN TROUPE 1 46-48 5011921024827 RTD $41.25
99810106008 TYRANID PYROVORE 1 51-41 5011921024261 RTD $37.25
99810107006 INQ KARAMAZOV 1 57-40 5011921024834 RTD $56.00
99810110003 C'TAN S THE DECEIVER 1 49-41 5011921028184 RTD $37.25
99810110004 C'TAN S NIGHTBRINGER 1 49-40 5011921028191 RTD $37.25
99810112005 DARK ELDAR INCUBI 1 45-40 5011921024841 RTD $41.25
99810113001 SNIPER DRONE TEAM 1 56-40 5011921024865 RTD $41.25
99810201005 LRD ON DAEMON MNT 1 83-43 5011921024476 RTD $40.00
99810202002 LUDWIG SCHWARZHELM 1 86-41 5011921023530 RTD $40.00
99810202003 KURT HELBORG 1 86-40 5011921024285 RTD $40.00
99810203001 THE GREEN KNIGHT 1 82-41 5011921023547 RTD $40.00
99810204003 WOOD ELVES TREE KIN 1 92-42 5011921024704 RTD $52.00
99810204004 ORION 1 92-40 5011921024711 RTD $40.00
99810205004 THOREK IRONBROW 1 84-40 5011921024735 RTD $56.00
99810205005 DWARF GYROCOPTER 1 84-41 5011921024742 RTD $40.00
99810205006 DWARF BOLT THROWER 1 84-42 5011921024759 RTD $40.00
99810205007 DWARF GRUDGE THROWER 1 84-43 5011921024766 RTD $40.00
99810206002 SKAVEN JEZZAILS 1 90-40 5011921023653 RTD $52.00
99810206009 SKAVEN DOOM-FLAYER 1 90-41 5011921023721 RTD $24.00
99810207004 VARGHULF 1 91-40 5011921024780 RTD $37.25
99810207005 COUNT MANNFRED 1 91-42 5011921024247 RTD $40.00
99810208004 KROQ GAR 1 88-41 5011921024643 RTD $69.00
99810209004 ORC SHAMAN ON BOAR 1 89-43 5011921023868 RTD $26.75
99810209006 WARBOSS ON WYVERN 1 89-41 5011921024650 RTD $69.00
99810209007 GOBLIN ROCK LOBBER 1 89-42 5011921024667 RTD $40.00
99810210003 TYRION 1 87-40 5011921024216 RTD $40.00
99810212003 DARK ELVES WAR HYDRA 1 85-40 5011921024513 RTD $69.00
99810213001 OGRE TYRANT 1 95-40 5011921025725 RTD $40.00
99810213002 OGRE SLAUGHTERMASTER 1 95-41 5011921025749 RTD $40.00
99810213003 GOLGFAG 1 95-42 5011921025756 RTD $40.00
99810213004 FIREBELLY 1 95-43 5011921025763 RTD $40.00
99810213005 YHETEES 1 95-44 5011921025817 RTD $52.00
99810216003 JABBERSLYTHE 1 81-41 5011921028887 RTD $69.00
99810217003 USHABTI W.GREAT BOW 1 94-41 5011921024520 RTD $52.00
99810217004 CASKET OF SOULS 1 94-40 5011921024537 RTD $56.00
99810217006 USHABTI W.G.WEPS 1 94-42 5011921025404 RTD $52.00
99810299001 COCKATRICE 1 80-11 5011921024971 RTD $37.25
99811462010 MORIA GOBLIN CMMNDRS 1 11-43 5011921029556 RTD $39.50
99811466003 GULAHVAR 1 08-42 5011921024575 RTD $57.75
99811499002 GONDOR TREBUCHET 1 04-40 5011921024605 RTD $57.75
99819915003 FLAMERS OF TZEENTCH 1 97-42 5011921024186 RTD $24.00
99819915006 DAEMON HERALD TZT 1 97-43 5011921025428 RTD $40.00

[Teln]

Like I said above, now is the time to stock up on SM vehicles.

[Cheesegear]

Straight from the horse's mouth. GW just revised the price revision; this version is a few minutes old and forwarded straight from the owner of my local store.

There's a few YouTube videos up already now. The prices are rising anywhere between 5 and 20%. TWENTY! That's ridiculous, even for me. Again, GW's business model of getting one person to spend $300, instead of six people to spend $50 is infuriating. Look, I realise GW is a company (and so should you), they are free to raise their prices whenever they feel like. The economy collapsing in Europe could have something to do with it. The atrocity that is Failcast and the $-sink that it is could have something to do with it. Releasing more and more kits that don't sell as well as predicted (Tyranids, cough, cough, although it may have something to with releasing them opposite Space Wolves - MASSIVE mistake). There's a slough of reasons that GW could justify themselves doing it. It's just that they wont justify the price increases. All's I want is a representative of GW to come out and say "Okay guys, here's what's up..." on the website or in White Dwarf or something.
Instead, we find out from e-mails to store owners, rumours from Warseer and videos on YouTube (from store owners).

For Australians, and our ridiculous prices, for example, under current prices, a Dreadnought is $US 44.50, or $AU 74. For the US, Dreadnoughts are going up $2. For us (not capitals), I expect an increase of 5 or more.

Remember, kids, $US:$AU is currently 1:1.02. Australians are winning damn it! But we're paying 30 extra dollars for a Dread (that's why I'm actually mad). If this price rise hits us too badly, I might start living on the Forgeworld website, it's still cheap(ish, comparitively).

I can't say I'm going to quit the hobby. Not yet, anyway (I've already got multiple armies which will probably only need minor alterations if Fantasy was anything to go by. Or, more accurately, 4th to 5th Ed.). If 6th makes a big push towards bigger vehicles, say, an alteration to the Melta rule, whilst simultaneously making AV14 amazing for some reason, or another nerfing of the damage table, I might quit, because I'll have no interest in buying 3 or more Land Raiders (which are over $AU 100, already).

[Renegade Paladin]

Meh. If they doubled everything and made it absolutely unaffordable tomorrow, I've got sufficient army to play without needing to add anything else anyway. I want to, but not critically so.

[HalfTangible]

Meh. If they doubled everything and made it absolutely unaffordable tomorrow, I've got sufficient army to play without needing to add anything else anyway. I want to, but not critically so.

I bought a stormraven gunship.

...

Not sure where i was going with that :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

Meh. If they doubled everything and made it absolutely unaffordable tomorrow, I've got sufficient army to play without needing to add anything else anyway. I want to, but not critically so.

It depends what 6th will do to the game. While I don't expect the rules to require the more expensive models (Land Raiders, etc.) to be competitive, it wouldn't surprise me if GW made it so. The whole point of a new edition is to tone down the broken stuff (Feel No Pain, Would Allocation, Scoring Transports), whilst also making the unusable stuff (non-BA Deep Striking [Daemons] and Land Raiders) usable.

[Timberwolf]

I bought a stormraven gunship.

...

Not sure where i was going with that :smallconfused:

24 inches and multimeltaing a tank ?

Feeling that absurd little bit of satisfaction as every single lascannon shot either misses or is eaten by your cover save ? (Ok, that's pretty rare but it's awesome when it happens)

[HalfTangible]

24 inches and multimeltaing a tank ?

Feeling that absurd little bit of satisfaction as every single lascannon shot either misses or is eaten by your cover save ? (Ok, that's pretty rare but it's awesome when it happens)

I meant as a conversation point.

[Hazzardevil]

It depends what 6th will do to the game. While I don't expect the rules to require the more expensive models (Land Raiders, etc.) to be competitive, it wouldn't surprise me if GW made it so. The whole point of a new edition is to tone down the broken stuff (Feel No Pain, Would Allocation, Scoring Transports), whilst also making the unusable stuff (non-BA Deep Striking [Daemons] and Land Raiders) usable.

If they nerf all of the suggested things, tau might as well drop off the face off the universe. The main thing they have going for them is cheap wargear for feel no pain and other useful things, but then you end up with all your eggs in one basket.
At least a far-sight setup could get better in 6th edition, which is what I want.

[Cheesegear]

I bought a stormraven gunship.

Stormravens are nice, but, what really counts is what goes inside. Is it Mephiston's or Sanguinor's Pimpmobile? Nobody is allowed inside except them? Sanguinary Guard inside? Maybe even an Assault Squad or Death Company? Take their Jump Packs off and make it ten with a bunch of Meltaguns and Flame Pistols (but not Flamers).

And, of course, the Dread slot. Blenderdread is almost always the appropriate choice. A double charge from Sanguinor/Mephiston and a Blender will ruin things. If you don't have a Librarian in your HQ slot (Reclusiarchs are good, if you disagree you are wrong. Read the BA Codex again and figure it out), you can put a Librarian in there and set up for nice Blood Lances.


If they nerf all of the suggested things, tau might as well drop off the face off the universe.

You mean they haven't already?

I don't mean that the things I proposed aren't the only things that're going to get changed. When people think of things that are going to happen in the next edition (I've seen it before, and it happens with nearly every Codex...), is that people are always thinking of how the change will affect the current game, rather than the game or Codex that the rule is actually going to be in.

So, for example, one particular rumour is that double strength no longer causes Instant Death. Instead, double strength will cause two wounds, and greater than that will cause three wounds. Partly because people are tired of seeing their 200+ point special character get one-shotted in combat by an untargetable Power Fist. Again, this is not fact. This is just something that I've seen on a reliable part of the internet. People instantly whinge about how stuff with FNP will be completely unkillable because S8 wont cause 'Instant Death'. Well, no. FNP is currently one of the most broken things in the game, currently, and we're almost guarenteed to see a change in the rule. And, in regards to the situation, we may also see a return to older editions where you targeted models in BtB contact, which means you may well be able to target Power Fists (which will make them useless again, just like they were in older editions).

So, take everything that's broken, tone it down. And take everything that sucks (Tau, Daemons, Orks...Not so much 'Nids anymore...But still 'Nids.) and fix them. And ignore the current game, because it wont be relevant.

[bluntpencil]

Right. Step 1; Convince friend to start imperial guard.
Step 2; Get friend to give spare missile launchers to me.
:smallbiggrin:

Still, I should do more asking around. It can't hurt. Failing that, does anyone have a good bitz store to reccomend?

Forge World do cool missile launchers now... in their special weapons bundle. Come with flamers, plasmas and meltas too!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Forge World do cool missile launchers now... in their special weapons bundle. Come with flamers, plasmas and meltas too!

Not very guard though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USAF_M72_LAW.jpg

A disposable rocket launcher is basically just a tube. Not hard to scratch build at all.

[Squark]

Not very guard though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USAF_M72_LAW.jpg

A disposable rocket launcher is basically just a tube. Not hard to scratch build at all.

The discussion was actually born out of my search for missile Launchers for my Long Fangs.

So... Probable changes in 6th edition include nerf to meltaguns (to 1d3 penatration, like what happened to Rending?), nerf to feel no pain (5+? Very welcome. Stupid Sanguinary priests), changes to instant death, and anything else of note?

[Hazzardevil]

You mean they haven't already?

I don't mean that the things I proposed aren't the only things that're going to get changed. When people think of things that are going to happen in the next edition (I've seen it before, and it happens with nearly every Codex...), is that people are always thinking of how the change will affect the current game, rather than the game or Codex that the rule is actually going to be in.

So, for example, one particular rumour is that double strength no longer causes Instant Death. Instead, double strength will cause two wounds, and greater than that will cause three wounds. Partly because people are tired of seeing their 200+ point special character get one-shotted in combat by an untargetable Power Fist. Again, this is not fact. This is just something that I've seen on a reliable part of the internet. People instantly whinge about how stuff with FNP will be completely unkillable because S8 wont cause 'Instant Death'. Well, no. FNP is currently one of the most broken things in the game, currently, and we're almost guarenteed to see a change in the rule. And, in regards to the situation, we may also see a return to older editions where you targeted models in BtB contact, which means you may well be able to target Power Fists (which will make them useless again, just like they were in older editions).

So, take everything that's broken, tone it down. And take everything that sucks (Tau, Daemons, Orks...Not so much 'Nids anymore...But still 'Nids.) and fix them. And ignore the current game, because it wont be relevant.

Hmm, what tau need is a solid anti-tank unit, aside from broadsides and other tanks, there's not much tau can do about them.
What is supposed to be the "best" tau army at the moment? I've been told it isn't farsight, although many many battle-suits seems so nice.

[BoSheck]

So... Probable changes in 6th edition include nerf to meltaguns (to 1d3 penatration, like what happened to Rending?), nerf to feel no pain (5+? Very welcome. Stupid Sanguinary priests), changes to instant death, and anything else of note?

It's hard to say what will and won't change. GW is a peculiar creature. They also hate to tell their customers when anything new is coming down the pipeling before it's remotely finished. I prefer a business model similar to WotC's, but that's neither here nor there.

If you wanna talk wild speculation: I imagine tanks might change to make bigger, more expensive vehicles and walkers more appealing. There might be special rules for flyers, and cover might see a nerf across the board. I wouldn't be surprised if Wound Allocation also changed. They'll probably steal some ideas from PP/FoW too. I imagine unit attatchments could be something we'll eventually see. Melta MSU might get nerfed, FNP doesn't seem unlreasonable to be toned down. New rulebook should mean new mission types in the back, of course.

As far as wishlisting: I'd like to see pistols use their str in CC and Gets Hot! done away with entirely. No Retreat! not being a humongous disadvantage for horde CC armies would be great, too. An implimentation of the Allies matrix would be too much to ask for, I always planned to get a few Sisters to accompany my marine armies and that WD atrocity sort of ended that little scheme.

That last paragraph is just pie-in-the-sky dreams. The best thing you can do is not believe anything you read before you've got your hands on a rulebook. Most the people I know who have 40k armies are waiting for a new edition before they make any major purchases, or putzing around with other miniature games, myself included.

[Penguinizer]

I hope they don't make the WH40k missions as horrible as the ones in the Warhammer FB. The ones in it are comically bad sometimes to the point of being unplayable at lower points values.

Honestly, I think the best thing they can do is have some more common sense when writing codices.

[hamishspence]

Any more comments on the new Stormtalon plastic model, the Necron Night/Doom Scythe, and the Ork Dakkajet/Blitza-bommer/Burna-bommer, from those who got their White Dwarf early?

The Scythe matches the art pretty closely. The Bommer looks very Orky, and very customisable in appearance- can have straight or swept back wings, raised or horizontal, tail can have low tailplane or high, etc.

The Stormtalon looks rather clunky- like the StormRaven but more so.

[IthilanorStPete]

Any more comments on the new Stormtalon plastic model, the Necron Night/Doom Scythe, and the Ork Dakkajet/Blitza-bommer/Burna-bommer, from those who got their White Dwarf early?

The Scythe matches the art pretty closely. The Bommer looks very Orky, and very customisable in appearance- can have straight or swept back wings, raised or horizontal, tail can have low tailplane or high, etc.

The Stormtalon looks rather clunky- like the StormRaven but more so.

Agreed on the Scythe, it looks pretty cool. The stormtalon looks even more stumpy and ugly than the Stormraven, which is saying something. The Original planes are spiffy in a retro, WWII-esque way; I just wish anthem vertical stabilizer wasn't quite so tall.

[Squark]

Rules question I remembered from last week; Does disembarking from a stationary vehicle into Dangerous terrain require the models disembarking to take a difficult terrain test?

(Situation; Blood Angels vs. Necrons; Obryn and the last surviving Necron Lord of the royal court he was working with (this was a gimick list someone had made) teleport right next to the Blood Angel's home objective, currently held by a tactical squad in a rhino. Tacitical squad disembarks in the hope of shooting the crap out of wounded Orikan and the lord. THe question is, does writhing worldscape mean they must take difficult terrain tests?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Rules question I remembered from last week; Does disembarking from a stationary vehicle into Dangerous terrain require the models disembarking to take a difficult terrain test?

(Situation; Blood Angels vs. Necrons; Obryn and the last surviving Necron Lord of the royal court he was working with (this was a gimick list someone had made) teleport right next to the Blood Angel's home objective, currently held by a tactical squad in a rhino. Tacitical squad disembarks in the hope of shooting the crap out of wounded Orikan and the lord. THe question is, does writhing worldscape mean they must take difficult terrain tests?

They disembark 2". Then if they want to move they have to take a difficult terrain test. Entering dangerous terrain with the disembark move would also cause a dangerous terrain test not to die.


Hmm, what tau need is a solid anti-tank unit, aside from broadsides and other tanks, there's not much tau can do about them.

Tau have loads of anti-tank, it just sucks. Make everything Tau already have work properly and Tau won't have tank problems. S10 ordinance and deep striking meltas are good. Its just that Tau's ability to actually bring that to bear properly in the amount the metagame requires that is a joke.

[Cheesegear]

Any more comments on the new Stormtalon plastic model, the Necron Night/Doom Scythe, and the Ork Dakkajet/Blitza-bommer/Burna-bommer, from those who got their White Dwarf early?

It's a Space Potato. The Fighta-Bommas actually look like planes.

The Space Potato
A Fast Attack choice for Codex Marines. Costs as much as two Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas. AV11 all 'round with Ceramite Plating. It's a Fast, Skimmer, with Aerial Assault and Supersonic, and comes with Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter and TL Assault Cannon. Basically, it's the Sammael Land Speeder with less armour (Ceramite Plating doesn't count for much when you're only AV11). It can upgrade it's Heavy Bolter to a TL-Lascannon, Typhoon or a Skyhamemr Missile Launcher, which is a longer-range Autocannon with 3 shots.

The Space Potato has the option of joining any unit in Reserve (not Deep Strike, and not other Potatos, maximum one per unit). Basically, the escort unit and the potato are rolled as one unit, and the Potato must enter within 6" of the other unit (currently it's unclear whether or not it can join an Outflanking unit). Like Apocalypse Reserves. At the start of it's movement phase, until the next movement phase, it may lose Fast, but gain +1BS when it fires at any non-Skimmer, and all shots count as Pinning.

Bommers
All the Bommers are Fast Attack choices. AV10 all 'round. Supersonic, Aerial Assault, Fast, Skimmers. When shooting at a non-Skimmer, a Dakkajet's shots are +1BS.
A Burner- and Bitza-Bomba may shoot one of it's weapons at BS3.

During a turn which a Waaagh! is called, all Bommas' Assault weapons shoot twice as many shots.

Dakkajet; Two Twin-Linked Supa shootas. Basically an Assault 3 Assault Cannon with longer range. Alll Dakkajet weapons count as Pinning.

Burna-Bommer; Twin-Linked Big Shoota, Twin-Linked Supa Shoota, x2 Burna Bombs.
...You have to move over a unit to drop a bomb. Not Flat Out. And it may fire at other targets than the one it dropped the bomb on. It's a Heavy Flamer that uses the large blast marker (no cover saves), and it scatters.
Up to x6 Skorcha Missiles (pay points); Same range as an Assault Cannon. Strength and AP of a Heavy Flamer (no cover save), uses small blast marker (scatters).

Blitza-Bommer; Twin-Linked Supa Shoota, Big Shoota (not twin-linked), x2 Boom Bombs. A Boom Bomb is a Heavy 1 Autocannon that uses the small Blast Marker and rolls 2d6 for Armour Penetration (not a Melta weapon. Ceramite plating doesn't work).

A Boom Bomb is fired during the movement phase. To fire it, you have to move your Bommer 1" in front of an enemy model and roll 2d6. 2 is bad. 3-4 is also bad. 5-9 resolve your attack as normal, then you may complete your move if you have any inches remaining. 10-12 is good as you can also fire your Supa Shoota in the movement phase, and again in the shooting phase.

The Space Potato definitely has it's uses. If it can escort Outflanking units, it's incredibly broken for Kor'Sarro armies. If it can't...It's an expensive Land Speeder with better armour, Aerial Assault (awesome) and Supersonic, and a nice rule against non-Skimmers (TL Lascannon or Typhoon and TL Assault Cannon at BS5? Okay. Your vehicle is dead). Although, personally, I'll still be using Land Speeders as Aerial Assault isn't exactly needed and Land Speeders are cheaper. Both in $$ and points.

Bommers are all anti-infantry. Dakkajets will kill MCs easily. Burna-Bommers kill stuff in cover. And Blitzas have an incredibly unreliable anti-tank weapon (that you only have two of), and it's anti-tank in that it's only S7 and rolls 2d6 for armour penetration with a 1" range...That Scatters 2d6-BS2(3)...*faceplam*

Orks got a raw deal. They got exactly what they didn't need more of. Unreliable flimsy vehicles in Fast Attack where Deffkoptas and Bikes-for-the-cover-save go. Where Space Marines essentially got a Predator that flies in their Fast Attack slots which is the most underused slot for Marines. Now, your best FA choices are Land Speeders, or a more better Land Speeder.

But, anybody who thought Space Marines wouldn't get the better one is deluded.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I actually kind of like the variety of having the Storm potatoe as more of a helecopter gunship than a plane. Only problem is that you know, helecopter gunships look cool and potatoes need to be boiled or freeze-thawn to eat.

[Renegade Paladin]

I actually kind of like the variety of having the Storm potatoe as more of a helecopter gunship than a plane. Only problem is that you know, helecopter gunships look cool and potatoes need to be boiled or freeze-thawn to eat.
I actually know a guy who will eat potatoes raw. >_>

ANYWAY, got my Valkyrie mostly done last night. Magnetizing the hull weapons was a breeze, but the wing mounts are being more difficult. I'll probably have to Green Stuff a couple of brackets onto the rocket pods and lascannons. (The missiles I got by mounting magnets to the tips of the fins.)

[Borgh]

I actually know a guy who will eat potatoes raw. >_>

ANYWAY, got my Valkyrie mostly done last night. Magnetizing the hull weapons was a breeze, but the wing mounts are being more difficult. I'll probably have to Green Stuff a couple of brackets onto the rocket pods and lascannons. (The missiles I got by mounting magnets to the tips of the fins.) The instructions don't match up with the model on how the wing pylons go; the instructions show them as a separate piece that you glue to the wing, but in actual fact those pieces are nowhere on the sprue and there's a slot pylon on the wing that the missiles just fit right into. :smallsigh:

I did it by glueing my magnets into the bit that fits into the wing-slot of the valkyrie, works like a charm. Lascannons (for the vendetta) I got by using the spare lascannons from my heavy weapon teams together and then glueing a weapons mount to it wrong side up.

[lord_khaine]

But, anybody who thought Space Marines wouldn't get the better one is deluded.

I kinda think Necrons got the best part of the deal here :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

I did it by glueing my magnets into the bit that fits into the wing-slot of the valkyrie, works like a charm. Lascannons (for the vendetta) I got by using the spare lascannons from my heavy weapon teams together and then glueing a weapons mount to it wrong side up.
I have a Forge World Vendetta conversion kit, so getting the lascannons isn't a problem. I should be able to overcome this with some green stuff, or perhaps a slice of sprue to elevate the magnets on the weapons closer to their counterparts on the wings.

[Wraith]

I kinda think Necrons got the best part of the deal here :smalltongue:

Visually, I definitely agree with you.

Then again, I've never liked the Ork aesthetic. Appreciate and understand it, yes; but never liked.

[lord_khaine]

Visually, I definitely agree with you.

Then again, I've never liked the Ork aesthetic. Appreciate and understand it, yes; but never liked.

I was more thinking about it rulewise, playing with the Doom Scythe is like being on crack, you start ignoring what else is happening to your army in favor trying to see how much of the enemy army you can fit in under a 3d6 line :smallbiggrin:

[Renegade Paladin]

Revision of my 1850 point list: 1850 points

Company Command Squad - 230
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Officer of the Fleet
-Chimera dedicated transport

Company Command Squad - 180
-Four meltaguns, melta bombs
-Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport

Storm Trooper Squad - 115
-Two plasma guns

Storm Trooper Squad - 105
-Two meltaguns

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Two flamers
-Heavy flamer
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Two heavy flamers

Veteran Squad - 100
-Three meltaguns

Valkyrie - 130
-Multiple rocket pods

Devil Dog - 140
-Multi-melta
-Smoke launchers

Hellhound - 135
-Smoke launchers

Basilisk - 125

Basilisk - 125
I dropped the Russ in favor of a second Basilisk, multiple rocket pods for the Valkyrie and... melta bombs for one of the company commanders, since I had literally nothing else (besides krak grenades) to spend five points on.

[Voidhawk]

What are the rules for mounting skimmers (or models in general) on different size bases? I vaguely remember hearing any base is a-okay, so long as it's the same size or larger than the supplied one. Is that true?

You see, I've been thinking about the Necron Doomsday Ark.

It's a skimmer, but mostly it's an artilary piece. You really don't want to move it, so that you can fire the Doomsday Cannon at maximum effectiveness each turn. This means your likely going to want to deploy it as far back on your edge as possible, somewhere with some nice clean fire lanes.

This in turn means it's probably gonna recieve some Deep Striking Melta right where-the-C'tan-don't-shine. Or get Outflanked into. Or any number of other things that are going to smash right through it's AV13-sort-of and make it wish it wasn't open topped.

...So what if you mounted it on a Valkyrie-esque Flyer base? Or even better, weld several together and make it float 2ft above the table? You measure ranges to and from the model (not the base) in all cases except assault. Cryptek Pythagoras has just made you immune to Meltaguns! And added a good 10" to the range of everything else in the opponents army.

Meanwhile, you can see the entire table from your birds eye view, and with a 72" range on your main gun can still happily knock holes in anything that takes your ire.

The main issue with this plan: inevitably a slight breeze is going to come along and happily smash your model to tiny pieces. But then I started thinking about Helium-balloons...

Is there any rule against having a model only connected to it's base by string? :smalltongue:

[Tychris1]

What are the rules for mounting skimmers (or models in general) on different size bases? I vaguely remember hearing any base is a-okay, so long as it's the same size or larger than the supplied one. Is that true?

You see, I've been thinking about the Necron Doomsday Ark.

It's a skimmer, but mostly it's an artilary piece. You really don't want to move it, so that you can fire the Doomsday Cannon at maximum effectiveness each turn. This means your likely going to want to deploy it as far back on your edge as possible, somewhere with some nice clean fire lanes.

This in turn means it's probably gonna recieve some Deep Striking Melta right where-the-C'tan-don't-shine. Or get Outflanked into. Or any number of other things that are going to smash right through it's AV13-sort-of and make it wish it wasn't open topped.

...So what if you mounted it on a Valkyrie-esque Flyer base? Or even better, weld several together and make it float 2ft above the table? You measure ranges to and from the model (not the base) in all cases except assault. Cryptek Pythagoras has just made you immune to Meltaguns! And added a good 10" to the range of everything else in the opponents army.

Meanwhile, you can see the entire table from your birds eye view, and with a 72" range on your main gun can still happily knock holes in anything that takes your ire.

The main issue with this plan: inevitably a slight breeze is going to come along and happily smash your model to tiny pieces. But then I started thinking about Helium-balloons...

Is there any rule against having a model only connected to it's base by string? :smalltongue:


A breeze won't knock it down, your opponents fist will. With some help from the boot. The model only legally counts as the model if you use all the parts in its kit needed (So a bipedal defiler who's legs are connected to stand a foot or two tall is legal, Valkyrie bases less so). Of course I'm not a hundred percent certain so I may be wrong

[Tome]

Modelling for a mechanical advantage is generally seen as a really douche-y sort of move.

I wouldn't do it, regardless of legality, if you still want people to actually play you.

[Wraith]

What Tome said, is pretty much the issue.

Strictly speaking it's not against the rules because you're using a bigger base and guaranteeing that it will be in LoS of everything on the table, but it's very much against the spirit of the game and any opponent or TO would be well within their rights to refuse to allow it.

[Penguinizer]

A breeze won't knock it down, your opponents fist will. With some help from the boot. The model only legally counts as the model if you use all the parts in its kit needed (So a bipedal defiler who's legs are connected to stand a foot or two tall is legal, Valkyrie bases less so). Of course I'm not a hundred percent certain so I may be wrong

Wasn't it also ruled that in the case of Vendettas and the like you'd measure from the base?

[Voidhawk]

Eh, it wasn't something I was ever intending to do (it does seem to be a significantly ungentlemanly move, not to mention dangerous to the model itself). I just wondered as to the legality of it.

I also realised you could swap it's base with that of the Doom Scythe. The Ark might gain advantage from being taller, while the Scythe could do well to be hugging the ground a little more. After all, the Death Ray barely needs line of sight, and can even shoot round corners (handy in city-fight). Plus the range boost from Cryptek Pythagoras, and the ability to use cover to boost the survivability of AV11.

The helium idea has led me inevitably to thoughts of Steam-Crons however. Lords of Lesiure and begoggled Crypteks deploying from Zeppelin-Arks and Biplane-Scythes. Deathmarks in pith-helmets! :smallsmile:

If only I was actually any good at converting. Sigh... :smallfrown:

[Cheesegear]

What are the rules for mounting skimmers (or models in general) on different size bases?

The model must be mounted on the base that it is supplied with. Page 3.
Skimmers must always be mounted on bases. Page 71.

There are few exceptions to this rule.

[Squark]

The model must be mounted on the base that it is supplied with. Page 3.
Skimmers must always be mounted on bases. Page 71.

There are few exceptions to this rule.

Question; How do old terminator models (Some of the older terminator models I've seen are mounted on regular bases instead of the larger ones) work? Are they legal because they're official GW models?

[Cheesegear]

Question; How do old terminator models (Some of the older terminator models I've seen are mounted on regular bases instead of the larger ones) work? Are they legal because they're official GW models?

...Depends on your TO. I know a number of people who use old models because they're smaller and have smaller base sizes. Not because they look cooler (they absolutely don't), or because they've been playing the game for 20 years (they haven't, they buy them off eBay), but, purely for the mechanical advantage. This is amazingly true for the older tanks.

Some of your brutal TOs can say that if the model isn't in print, then it isn't legal. Mail Order Only stuff, like Collectors' Models (Be'Lakor, for example) counts as 'in print'.

Some of the nice(r, at least) TOs will say that your model has to conform to the current print - i.e; Mount your old Terminators on 40mm bases. Yes, Be'Lakor is a Daemon Prince but you have to put him on a 60mm base, etc.

And some TOs don't care.

EDIT: You can no longer buy the 5th Ed. Big Black Book. You have been told.

[Closet_Skeleton]

...Depends on your TO. I know a number of people who use old models because they're smaller and have smaller base sizes. Not because they look cooler (they absolutely don't)

I actually prefer the old chaos terminators. The poses are terribly dull but the details on the plastic ones just aren't sharp enough.

No reason not to use the newer loyalist terminators since most of the old ones were plastic anyway and they don't have as many decorations. Unless they're the wolfguard ones but their poses make up for the time spent filing those overly rounded skulls off.

Didn't buy them off Ebay either, unlike half my tyranids (the other half I bought when they were new)

[HalfTangible]

Well, I have my first stormraven gunship. Which begs the question... what should I equip it with?

I figure i should go with extra armor, Lascannons for their range and add side sponsons with hurricane bolters but I'm not sure if i should replace the twin linked heavy bolter with a twin linked multimelta or if it'd be worth it to get the typhoon missile launcher or if there's some better option i could go with

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, I have my first stormraven gunship. Which begs the question... what should I equip it with?

I figure i should go with extra armor, Lascannons for their range and add side sponsons with hurricane bolters but I'm not sure if i should replace the twin linked heavy bolter with a twin linked multimelta or if it'd be worth it to get the typhoon missile launcher or if there's some better option i could go with
Get rare earth magnets and have everything. :smallsmile:

[Timberwolf]

Well, I have my first stormraven gunship. Which begs the question... what should I equip it with?

I figure i should go with extra armor, Lascannons for their range and add side sponsons with hurricane bolters but I'm not sure if i should replace the twin linked heavy bolter with a twin linked multimelta or if it'd be worth it to get the typhoon missile launcher or if there's some better option i could go with

What Renegade Paladin said.

With Stormravens, there is never a reason to take the Heavy Bolters unless you know for certain your aren't trying to kill tanks. Even for MC's, the extra S8 AP1 hit is pretty much a guaranteed wound removed.

The Typhoon is nice, but it's 25 points, Nice, but I prefer the Multimelta and having the extra points.

The Stormraven lives or dies by its mobility so Extra Armour is always a worthy shout, but I have never taken it and I've only regretted that a few times, out of all the games I have played. Of course, I normally have 3 little pigeons running around, so I feel the effects less.

The sponsons. I will be disagreed with here, but I do believe they are totally worth it. Of course with my normal style, I'm short on massed AP firepower, so they're helping to address that weakness. If you have lots of Dakka already, they're utility is worth considering very carefully.

I terms of turret gun, I'm a big assault cannon fan, but I will always include a gunship with lascannon as well.

My favourite setup is...

Sponsons,
multimelta
Assault Cannon.

It weighs in at a meaty 230 points but it's effective enough and the trimmed points without going absolutely to town has meant that I can shave enough space to have a twin to it as well.

[Ricky S]

I know the most popular loadout in my local area is the multi melta, assault cannon and extra armour. It is multipurpose and can take on infantry or tanks and can zip around the battlefield dropping troops off where they are needed.

You could also go pure anti infantry and take a heavy bolter, assault cannon and hurricane bolters but in the current metagame that is a little silly.

The way I like to use my stormraven is to have a lascannon and missile launcher. I use mine as a gunship. I keep my distance and pound away at enemy vehicles or monsters. Then on the last turn I make a dash for an objective and contest it.

You just have to find out what works for your playstyle and go with that.

[Gauntlet]

HQ
Company Command- 145
Meltagun x4
Chimera

Troops
Veterans- 155
Meltagun x3
Chimera

Veterans- 155
Meltagun x3
Chimera

Veterans- 100
Meltagun x3

Veterans- 100
Meltagun x3

Fast Attack
Vendetta- 130

Vendetta- 130

Bane Wolf- 135
Smoke Launchers

Heavy Support
Leman Russ- 150

Hydra Flak Tank x2- 150

Hydra Flak Tank x2- 150

---
1500

A few places are extending the time before the price drop, so I'm thinking about picking up a couple bits of a list before things go up. Any suggestions as to list changes and/or where to start putting things together?

Also, I'm starting to think swapping out two hydras for a second Leman Russ might be more effective. I have an awful lot of answers to light infantry already- and Hydras are rather more expensive than Leman Russes.

Edit: Also thinking of dropping the Vendettas for Chimeras for the 3rd and 4th Veteran squads, and taking another Bane Wolf or a Colossus.

[Renegade Paladin]

A few places are extending the time before the price drop, so I'm thinking about picking up a couple bits of a list before things go up. Any suggestions as to list changes and/or where to start putting things together?

Also, I'm starting to think swapping out two hydras for a second Leman Russ might be more effective. I have an awful lot of answers to light infantry already- and Hydras are rather more expensive than Leman Russes.

Edit: Also thinking of dropping the Vendettas for Chimeras for the 3rd and 4th Veteran squads, and taking another Bane Wolf or a Colossus.
Can't have a Colossus; you're out of heavy support slots.

[thedavo]

Got an Apoc. game over the weekend, looks like it's probably going to be Orks (me) and Eldar vs a couple of marine players (Blood Angels and Dark Angels). Quite looking forwards to busting out my Skullhamma again! We'll have a Stompa too, and the Imperial side have a Baneblade.

And I love the new Bommer model, will have to pick one up at some point.

[Squark]

A few places are extending the time before the price drop, so I'm thinking about picking up a couple bits of a list before things go up. Any suggestions as to list changes and/or where to start putting things together?

Also, I'm starting to think swapping out two hydras for a second Leman Russ might be more effective. I have an awful lot of answers to light infantry already- and Hydras are rather more expensive than Leman Russes.

Edit: Also thinking of dropping the Vendettas for Chimeras for the 3rd and 4th Veteran squads, and taking another Bane Wolf or a Colossus.

I don't know guard well enough to comment on the virture of Leman Russes vs. Hydras, but I would definately reccomend making sure all 4 veteran squads have a dedicated transport. Without them, they'll just get shredded by otherwise useless bolterfire.

[Renegade Paladin]

I don't know guard well enough to comment on the virture of Leman Russes vs. Hydras, but I would definately reccomend making sure all 4 veteran squads have a dedicated transport. Without them, they'll just get shredded by otherwise useless bolterfire.
Hydras have a pair of twin-linked autocannons and Russes are Russes - AV14, battle cannon, the whole nine yards. A Hydra costs half as much in points, though.

As for the transport-less veteran squads, I'm fairly certain they're going in the Vendettas. :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Without them, they'll just get shredded by otherwise useless bolterfire.

Bolter-fire is far from useless. Boltguns remain one of the - if not the - best weapons in the game.

[Gauntlet]

I know i'm low on HS slots, but I could take 2 Leman Russes + 2 Hydras and fill the third slot with a Colossus, rather than taking the Leman Russes individually. And yeah, the two Vet squads would go in the Vendettas.

[Borgh]

Problem with Sqaudding the Leman russes is that it completely counteracts the advantage you get with the extra colossus.

you have to deploy them together
they can be shot at together
they have to shoot the same target
immobilised results are now a kill on the first LR
good luck finding anything to take cover behind


so, don't do it. in this case, 2*1 >1*2

[Penguinizer]

I don't like how vehicle squadrons are such a huge hinderance. When I was assembling my IG army (since I got some of my friend's old scratch built tanks) I thought that 6 leman russes would work. Turns out it's not that good and is boring to play. I wonder how the new edition will change things related to vehicle squadrons.

[Squark]

Bolter-fire is far from useless. Boltguns remain one of the - if not the - best weapons in the game.

Oh, yeah. But they don't do a whole lot against parking lots until you've cracked them open, though.

Also, like I said, I don't know Guard very well. So if they're going in the Vendettas, disregard that advice about the chimeras.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, yeah. But they don't do a whole lot against parking lots until you've cracked them open, though.

Yeah, but you've got to realise that the reason parking lots exist is because of Boltguns.

[Tome]

I've always thought of Boltguns as being a bit lackluster.

Then again, I play Tau and Grey Knights. My standards may be a bit off. :smalltongue:

[HalfTangible]

I've always thought of Boltguns as being a bit lackluster.

Then again, I play Tau and Grey Knights. My standards may be a bit off. :smalltongue:

That's like playing Guard and saying Eldar don't get enough tanks and/or shots :smalltongue:

Never mind. I have no right to talk about two armies I know next to nothing about outside of video games and a few batreps :smallwink:

[Closet_Skeleton]

That's like playing Guard and saying Eldar don't get enough tanks and/or shots :smalltongue:

Never mind. I have no right to talk about two armies I know next to nothing about outside of video games and a few batreps :smallwink:

"As a Tau player, I'm too used to S5 and other races aren't to my taste" is fine.

"Tactical marines suck because they don't have pulse rifles only crappy boltguns" is not.

"Grey Knights suck because they don't have pulse rilfes or easy access to poison like tyranids, its so unfair" will get you throttled in a dark alley with a tape measure after the game.

[HalfTangible]

"As a Tau player, I'm too used to S5 and other races aren't to my taste" is fine.

"Tactical marines suck because they don't have pulse rifles only crappy boltguns" is not.

"Grey Knights suck because they don't have pulse rilfes or easy access to poison like tyranids, its so unfair" will get you throttled in a dark alley with a tape measure after the game.

Grey Knights suck if you don't use psychic powers. :smalltongue: Or know how those special weapons of theirs work.

[Squark]

"Grey Knights suck because they don't have pulse rilfes or easy access to poison like tyranids, its so unfair" will get you throttled in a dark alley with a tape measure after the game.

Grey Knights do essentially have pulse rifles if they take psybolt ammunition for their storm bolters (Except Assault 2 24" is usually better than Rapid Fire 30"), which I think is what he meant.

Having started out (years ago, mind you, playing 1 game a year at my Cousin's house on Thanksgiving) playing with and against pretty much all MEQ, I've always considered Bolters (And the tactical marine in general, for that matter) as merely "average." And in a sense, they are, since every other infantry model in the game is judged by how it compares to the Codex Marines equivalent.

[Zorg]

So GW are starting with digitally releasing rulebooks now (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?type=article&aId=22200010a). Codex Marines, How to Paint Citadel Minis and some Storm of Magic stuff is out now.

But only for iOS devices through iTunes :smallmad:

[LeSwordfish]

Oh, freaking finally. I was wondering how long it'd take them.

I was hoping for an app where you could pay subscription to get all of them, but I guess that's less good business-wise.

[Penguinizer]

And they still charge full price. Then again, it's GW, not surprised.

[Cheesegear]

And in a sense, they are, since every other infantry model in the game is judged by how it compares to the Codex Marines equivalent.

That's kind of the point. Not only a few posts ago, you said something to the effect of 'Mech up, son. Bolters will ruin you." Most Tyranid builds fail specifically because of Boltguns. Same with Orks. Infantry Guard only works because of spam/redundancy, because when your opponent blows your entire unit away with Boltguns (they will), you've got lots and lots more. If somebody tells you Infantry Guard are good because of Lasguns; They are wrong. Infantry Guard is good because of Las- and Auto- cannons.


So GW are starting with digitally releasing rulebooks now (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?type=article&aId=22200010a). Codex Marines, How to Paint Citadel Minis and some Storm of Magic stuff is out now.

About time. Even if people don't want any of those things, I would highly suggest getting them anyway, if only for the reason that if this takes off, we can expect it for everything else. And due to the format, hopefully we can get expansions frequently because one/two page .pdfs can be developed every other week.

[Renegade Paladin]

Am I the only one who noticed that they said articles would now be released in this way? So they won't be posted on the website anymore, instead requiring you to pay for them?

Yeah.

[Cheesegear]

Am I the only one who noticed that they said articles would now be released in this way? So they won't be posted on the website anymore, instead requiring you to pay for them?

No different to various newspapers and journals...And there's always White Dwarf, which you're paying for.

Seriously, when are people going to learn that GW is a business...And so operates just like hundreds of others. GW is not the first - nor the last - business to operate the way it does.

GW is still better than EA. :smallsigh:

[Renegade Paladin]

No different to various newspapers and journals...And there's always White Dwarf, which you're paying for.

Seriously, when are people going to learn that GW is a business...And so operates just like hundreds of others. GW is not the first - nor the last - business to operate the way it does.

GW is still better than EA. :smallsigh:
I don't have an iPad, and don't intend to get one, so either way I'm entirely locked out.

[Cheesegear]

I don't have an iPad, and don't intend to get one, so either way I'm entirely locked out.

You can get them on your computer...
The only thing you probably shouldn't get are the digital Codecies since you need a Codex with you when you play a game.

[Renegade Paladin]

Unless they reprint the Guard codex a lot sooner than I think they will (and are stopping printing in dead tree format entirely, which I see no sign of) I'm just not going to mess with it.

[Erloas]

But only for iOS devices through iTunes :smallmad:
Yeah, I don't really see this staying iOS only. For one, Android devices outnumber iOS devices 4 to 1 so they are really limiting who could possibly use them. In the LGS I've never seen an iPad... and I think one person has an iPhone, everyone else is laptops and android. And I haven't looked but I would imagine if there is any proprietary iOS only book format out right now there are already programs that can convert them to a format anyone can use.


And they still charge full price. Then again, it's GW, not surprised.Its probably Apple as much as it is GW. You notice how Apple is facing a lawsuit right now for price fixing for digital books? When they first came out digital books were cheaper then their printed counterpart then Apple talked with all of the major distributors and now digital copies are *more expensive* then the printed copies. Its one of the reasons I never made the switch to digital.


Am I the only one who noticed that they said articles would now be released in this way? So they won't be posted on the website anymore, instead requiring you to pay for them?
They said they would also be available there, not that they would only be available there. It is also possible for them to still have them free, not sure about iTunes, but I know other digital distribution platforms have at least some free content.

If its not clear... I despise Apple as a company and will never support them in any way. I wouldn't even keep their product if I got it for free. So needless to say, unless the iTunes only thing here changes, then as far as I'm concerned GW hasn't announced anything at this point.

[Cheesegear]

then Apple talked with all of the major distributors and now digital copies are *more expensive* then the printed copies. Its one of the reasons I never made the switch to digital.

...Slight de-rail. But how is Amazon still selling digital books for 1/3-1/2 the price and Apple isn't?


So needless to say, unless the iTunes only thing here changes, then as far as I'm concerned GW hasn't announced anything at this point.

The problem - I feel - at the moment, is that everything available has been in print for quite some time, and anybody who wants it, probably already has it. Storm of Magic monsters, Codex Marines, How to Paint Ultramarines? Besides, as has been pointed out, everything is 'full price'.

I'm not particularly impressed by the news at this point, but I am optimistic as to where it can lead.

[Zorg]

You can get them on your computer...


Books bought from your computer through iTunes can't be read on said computer - they're only readable once uploaded to an iPad.

[Erloas]

...Slight de-rail. But how is Amazon still selling digital books for 1/3-1/2 the price and Apple isn't?
Well it depends on the book mostly. Digital is still cheaper then new hardcover, but they are more expensive then paper backs, at least here in the US and of the books I've looked for. I know Apple only did their little price fixing thing with 4-6 of the publishers, not all of them. As I don't have an eReader I couldn't say for sure how much they used to be, but I do vaguely remember when I first looked at a Kindle the digital books were a bit cheaper, I'm thinking like $5-6 and now they are $8-12. But that is going off of casual memory.

Not that it is likely to do any good, but I'm at very least going to send GW a letter saying I will not even tell other people about the digital book options until they start offering them from someone other then Apple. And I know my brother will fill much the same way and he owns the LGS. In fact I can get him to tell his GW rep directly on the phone next time he is placing an order.

[Shovah]

Books bought from your computer through iTunes can't be read on said computer - they're only readable once uploaded to an iPad.

Yep. Despite being an ePub file that any ebook reader on any machine should be able to handle, Apple has stuck DRM on the files so that they can only be read on iOS device (with the correct account attached, naturally).
Even if you happened to have a Mac as your computer you couldn't read them.


I can't see Games Workshop sticking with pure Apple if they intend to go in to this in any real way.

[LeSwordfish]

My guess is this is a test run anyway. I won't be rebuying stuff with this, but I'm happy to pay the smallish price increase for the added convenience when buying new books. Kindles as they are are probably no good for this, but ah well.

Any sensible company would put a "Starter" book like black reach up for a few dollars or free, to try and get people hooked. But it'll be a cold day in hell...

[Renegade Paladin]

Just back from the tournament. Had a good run; came within 3 battle points of second place. In the last round, there were mobile objectives. Any unit could pick them up and carry them, but troops were still required to count as holding them. My opponent missed the second part, and then had a literal crying breakdown when turn 6 came around and he discovered he wasn't winning like he thought because his Praetorians had the objective and had just run far away from his troops in an effort to escape my pursuing Chimeras and Valkyrie. :smallsigh: At least I tabled some Orks in the first round.

[Cheesegear]

had a literal crying breakdown when turn 6 came around and he discovered he wasn't winning like he thought because his Praetorians had the objective and had just run far away from his troops in an effort to escape my pursuing Chimeras and Valkyrie.

Like, falling back, running? Or, moving away, running? At the end of the game, falling back units count as destroyed, so they wouldn't hold the objective anyway.


Also, if people haven't seen it already (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW9S2Ll1xJ8). Round 1 (2?) is pretty funny. And Round 2 (1?) would upset me - especially if he had Lash and started touching my models.

I have seen Round 5 happen, but it was more a case of the guys rolled for first turn, and the guy playing the Parking Lot got first turn, and 'that's game'. Which is kind of rolling dice 'at random' to determine the outcome of the game.

[Renegade Paladin]

Like moving away. Because his elites could move the objective, he assumed they could also claim it.

In the end it wouldn't have made a difference to the game; the Praetorians couldn't escape the Basilisk fire no matter where they jumped to, and I landed a direct hit against the last two members of the squad before he quite sulkily conceded the match, with the Hellhound within range to finish up if that didn't do the trick. He had no excuse for not knowing, either; not only did the written scenario rules state that claiming the objectives works as in the 40k rulebook, but the question was asked of the TO and clearly answered twice within hearing of our table, and I asked him pointedly if the unit with the objectives was a Troops choice, and told him to think about why I was doing what I was doing when he asked why I ran a veteran squad away from the front line to take over the objective my command squad was holding on to.

Because they were moveable, his strategy was to seize the objectives and use his Monolith to teleport the units with them back to his table edge, inside what he deemed an impenetrable ring of units that could hold me off until the end of the game, giggling the whole time over how screwed I was because he could teleport around at will. I... emphatically proved his assessment incorrect via blowing up half his army in a single turn, which led to his handing the objectives he had to jump troops and running away. He'd done the teleporting objectives trick to me before, in a tournament under the old Necron codex, and thought he'd get away with it again, but I came prepared and after his giggling over his rules-gaming I was in no mood to give him tactical tips.

[Squark]

Played the opening turns of my first games with my space wolves (Before a truce was called to play in a Cube Draft). Overall, I think I needed a better deployment strategy, more troops (2 troop choices at 725pts is fine, I think. 2 five man squads of grey hunters is not. Although part of that is because I'm still waiting for the metal meltaguns to arrive so the second squad can be fully assembled), and I need another group of missile Fangs to make hiding from their missile fire harder.

[Timberwolf]

Well, just finished making my Storm Budgie (aka the Space Potato). Going to try it out tomorrow. It should be interesting as it'll be an Apoc game and therefore the giant walking distraction that is my Warhound should be taking the fire that would hurt it. My opponant's managed to book one of the big Forge World boards at Warhammer World so this should be fun.

[Cheesegear]

So, apparently this is true (for a given value of 'true', although a few of places are saying it);

6th Ed will give AP to close combat weapons.

Power Weapons will be AP3.
Power Fists and Force Weapons will be AP2.
Chainfists are AP1.

GG. Terminators win. Banshees and Death Cult Assassins are no longer a threat. Time to bust out your Deathwing Hammers.
So...Meganobz will see more use, and maybe people might bust out their Scorpion Claws again (if they aren't already using Karadras). But, Marines are still the winners on this rule.

Again, it's a rumour - although a prevalent one. And again, while it would probably ruin 5th Ed, we don't entirely know how 6th Ed. is going to work so maybe it's not so terrible in the long run.

[Ricky S]

That will make regular terminators godly again! Hurrah!

[Cheesegear]

That will make regular terminators godly again! Hurrah!

And makes Grey Knight Terminators/Paladins even better. Again, we'll probably see a change to Feel No Pain, but, Power Weapons only being AP3 is a concern for not being able to deal with Blood Angels properly.

[Erloas]

I guess that would make rending CC weapons better then power weapons in some cases.
But yeah, that sounds like a poor idea overall, seeing as how Banshees are essentially the only way Eldar have of dealing with Terminators.

The other question would be: are they going to give AP to normal close combat weapons? Like what Scorpions or assault marines use? I would bet if they do they will be AP5, which would once again make it so many non-MEQ units may as well not even be considered having armor as they won't get to make a save against anything ever.

Personally I still find the binary AP system to be rather stupid. A modified save system similar to Fantasy (but not based on Strength) would be a lot better in my opinion.

[Ricky S]

And makes Grey Knight Terminators/Paladins even better. Again, we'll probably see a change to Feel No Pain, but, Power Weapons only being AP3 is a concern for not being able to deal with Blood Angels properly.

I dont understand what you mean. The majority of blood angels armies are only in power armour and not terminator armour anyway.

Apparently pistols will be able to be used in combat as well so plasma pistols will suddenly become useful as well. Infernus Pistols will also become a lot more affordable.

[Teln]

If that bit about AP in assault is true, then SW termies just got kicked in the teeth.

[Squark]

I dont understand what you mean. The majority of blood angels armies are only in power armour and not terminator armour anyway.

Apparently pistols will be able to be used in combat as well so plasma pistols will suddenly become useful as well. Infernus Pistols will also become a lot more affordable.

AP 3 doesn't turn off feel no pain.

And as for the pistol change... I really don't like it. Firing a Plasma Pistol or Infernus Pistol in a melee is a good way to kill someone sure, but in the chaos of a melee, and considering that plasma bolts and melta bursts expand from their initial size, that someone could quite possibly be on your side. For that matter, firing a bolt pistol in a melee is pretty dangerous if your allies (i.e. Guardsman or Orks) are in flak armor or worse. I do hope they at least limit it to only a single attack, much like using a pistol in the shooting phase.

[lord_khaine]

GG. Terminators win. Banshees and Death Cult Assassins are no longer a threat. Time to bust out your Deathwing Hammers.
So...Meganobz will see more use, and maybe people might bust out their Scorpion Claws again (if they aren't already using Karadras). But, Marines are still the winners on this rule.

Well, this would suddenly make some of the Phoenix lords a lot more viable.


I guess that would make rending CC weapons better then power weapons in some cases.
But yeah, that sounds like a poor idea overall, seeing as how Banshees are essentially the only way Eldar have of dealing with Terminators.

Well there is also LotsOfShurikens and the Avatar



AP 3 doesn't turn off feel no pain.

No but power weapons do.

[Erloas]

Well there is also LotsOfShurikens and the Avatar
Well sure, there are other ways of killing terminators, and mass fire is a good choice, but its still a lot more points and a lot more time to take them out with attrition instead of Banshees.

Frankly I don't see any reason at all to make 2+ saves better. If the *poor* terminators are not good enough as is they need a point cost change not to nerf power weapons. And you know it has to be someone saying "terminators just die too easily" because they are effectively the only models with a 2+ save (I think Tau battlesuits are the only other thing, which hardly counts).

And Daemons of Chaos don't have all that many great options for shooting. This would be a big nerf to bloodletters, and in turn most Daemon builds, if it were to happen.

No but power weapons do.
Power weapons currently do because they allow no armor saves. If they turn to AP3 they no longer "don't allow armor saves" and therefor FNP (at least in its current version) would still apply.


And I'm not going to say "I'm going to quit playing if they make these changes" but I will say if they do too much to make marines more powerful (as opposed to balanced, which should be their aim), especially encouraging more 2+ save heavy army builds, thats really going to reduce my already limited desire to play the game.

[ZeltArruin]

Personally I still find the binary AP system to be rather stupid. A modified save system similar to Fantasy (but not based on Strength) would be a lot better in my opinion.

I miss heavy close combat weapons.

[Erloas]

So I went to actually look into the rumors, but having limited success with access to many sites limited at work.
There was a lot of vague talk but not too many specific rumors that I found.

The general rumor is more of a focus on infantry, which I see as a good thing. There seems to be a lot of ideas from Fantasy here too. FNP having different levels like regeneration in Fantasy, the Psyker powers working a lot more like magic from fantasy. Random charge distances for assaults. Assault coming before shooting, a potential for a BS modified Stand and Shoot response. Vehicles having "hit points" where they can much more easily be killed with glancing hits.
And potentially more shots from most units depending on distance to the target. And to-hit rolls being affected by how far the unit you are shooting at moved in the turn before. Also FOC being replaced with a system similar to fantasy. Also characters and challenges working more like in Fantasy and having more affect on a unit (like how the command units in fantasy gave units more options), including the ability to rally as long as the commander is alive. Also a lot of changes to how and when reserves come in, this could make daemons a lot more reliable, though they are rumored to be redone soon anyway. A change to Victory Points where you earn them throughout they game rather then just on the last round.

With cover going to a 5+ and potentially more shots I can't see any horde army doing well without a large point decrease. The changes to vehicles I've read so far don't seem to make them much weaker, and not much I've read so far points to "parking lots" being significantly weaker.
The potential change to BS could do a lot of things, but without more info on how it works its hard to say what that could mean. Too many modifiers and shooty armies will no longer work, but with increased shots it might balance out.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, apparently this is true (for a given value of 'true', although a few of places are saying it);

6th Ed will give AP to close combat weapons.

Power Weapons will be AP3.
Power Fists and Force Weapons will be AP2.
Chainfists are AP1.

GG. Terminators win. Banshees and Death Cult Assassins are no longer a threat. Time to bust out your Deathwing Hammers.
So...Meganobz will see more use, and maybe people might bust out their Scorpion Claws again (if they aren't already using Karadras). But, Marines are still the winners on this rule.

Again, it's a rumour - although a prevalent one. And again, while it would probably ruin 5th Ed, we don't entirely know how 6th Ed. is going to work so maybe it's not so terrible in the long run.
If true, what would they do about special CCWs, like Straken and his Man of Adamantium rule? (In that particular case, I know the wording in the codex of "ignores armor saves" would override whatever the core book says, but there are probably other instances.)

[Cheesegear]

I guess that would make rending CC weapons better then power weapons in some cases.

It depends if Rending stays the same as it is now. Again, I can't comment fully on rules rumours since I don't how the rest of the game works yet. But, the Codecies aren't changing, and Power Fists outside Marines are rare, which is how I know I can comment on that particular score.


The other question would be: are they going to give AP to normal close combat weapons? Like what Scorpions or assault marines use? I would bet if they do they will be AP5, which would once again make it so many non-MEQ units may as well not even be considered having armor as they won't get to make a save against anything ever.

I have read that Chainswords (not Close Combat Weapons) will be AP5. But it's not clear, and never in OPs.


And I'm not going to say "I'm going to quit playing if they make these changes" but I will say if they do too much to make marines more powerful (as opposed to balanced, which should be their aim), especially encouraging more 2+ save heavy army builds, thats really going to reduce my already limited desire to play the game.

The general consensus is that Marines are going to be better, not worse. And Xenos races are going to be behind the curve for a while.


There was a lot of vague talk but not too many specific rumors that I found.

There is a 'leaked' 6th Ed. ruleset, that a lot of people have been talking about, it has since proven to be false. If you're only just Googling stuff now, you'll find a lot of false overlap between the discussion on the 'wishlist' of rules, and stuff since 5th Ed. was removed from shelves.


The changes to vehicles I've read so far don't seem to make them much weaker, and not much I've read so far points to "parking lots" being significantly weaker.

Some phrases have come up from people who have been 6th Ed. play-testers;
Land Raiders will be competitive again.
Fast vehicles (and by extension, most Skimmers) are going to change. But people are tight-lipped on whether those changes are positive or negative.


Ultimately, yes. The focus appears to be on Infantry. If you're unclear on what to buy between now and the month until 6th Ed. arrives, you'll be 'safe' buying Marines. Again, there's a couple of things I want to say about GW giving us absolutely nothing for an entire month, but it wont be anything people haven't heard before.

[Renegade Paladin]

But almost no codexes have chainswords as separate wargear anymore.

[13_CBS]

Hello, Warhammerers In the Playground. I pop in here from time to time to ask inane questions, but this time I have something a little more substantive. :smallsmile:

I plan on getting a job soon, and if/once I do I hope to one day save enough monies to start playing WH40k. I'm hoping for my first army to be a Thousand-Sons themed Chaos Space Marine army, so I've come up with a first draft army list for it. However, I have absolutely 0 playing experience, and though I've read the rule books I've yet to even see a game being played, as 40k games don't happen very often at my local hobby store and I don't even visit that store very often anyway. So I turn to you, veteran Hammerers, for any advice you could give me on this army on optimizing it.

Some things of note:

The primary focus of this army is to be shooty, with a secondary emphasis on being tough to kill (invulnerable saves abound)--the first because doing so feels appropriately Tzeentchy, the second because I tend to prefer minimizing casualties in any strategy game I play, perhaps to a fault.

I have no idea what my future metagame will be like--in fact, by the time I start playing the new Chaos codex or Edition might appear.

There are 2 versions of this list: 1500 points and 2000 points.

Army List: 1500 point version

HQ:
Chaos Lord – 165 points
Terminator Armor
Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon
Death Screamer
Bolt of Change

Notes: I went with the Chaos Lord mostly because of the terminator armor and daemon weapon, which made him both tough and shooty. I wasn't too confident in the Sorcerer Lord despite the flavorful goodness, and a shooty Daemon Prince seemed less points efficient, albeit less squishy. I'm also sure about relying too heavily on psychic powers for shooting, which a Daemon Prince would have had to do if I'm reading the Codex correctly, thanks to Perils of the Warp shenanigans and what I've heard to be a recent upsurge in anti-psyker stuff.


Troops:
Chaos Space Marines Squad (x 9) + Rhino – 215 points
Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun
Aspiring Champion: Power Weapon, Melta bombs
Rhino: Havoc Launchers

Plague Marines Squad (x 10) + Rhino - 345 points
Melta Gun (x2)
Plague Champion: Power Fist, Melta Bombs
Rhino: Havoc Launcher

Rubric Marines Squad (x 9) + Aspiring Sorcerer – 292 points
Aspiring Sorcerer: Warptime

Notes: Due to my inexperience with the game, I don't know what units are supposed to be mechanized and what aren't, only that melee-heavy troops usually have to hide in metal boxes. So I went with a general rule of, if it's not 100% shooty, give it a metal box. The generic Chaos Space Marines are here as flexible response units, a sort of in-between unit between the tarpitty close-rangeness of the plague marines and the shootiness of the rubrics. (That they're some of the most cost-efficient units in the codex (or so I've heard) also helped.) I'll also be re-flavoring the plague marines if they end up remaining on the list.


Heavy Support:
Obliterator Squad (x 3) – 225 points

Havoc Squad (x 7) – 250 points
Mark of Nurgle, Lascannon, Missile Launcher (x3)

Notes: My main worry here is whether these guys will be enough to fend off a reasonable number of vehicles. I suspect that a very tank-heavy might wreck me, since I only have 2 meltas in the whole army, but I've also read that one of the biggest weaknesses of CSMs is its lack of cheap, expendable melta, so...

TOTAL POINTS: 1492


Army List: 2000 points version

HQ:
Chaos Lord – 165 points
Terminator Armor
Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon
Death Screamer
Bolt of Change

Notes: I was toying with including a 2nd HQ unit here, namely a Daemon Prince, but again Daemon Princes don't seem very shooty to me. Am I missing something, or are DPs mainly for melee?

Elites:
Terminator Squad (x10) – 385 points
Mark of Tzeentch, Reaper Autocannon (x2)

Notes: Tough, shooty units that can also pop light vehicles. I was deciding between these and Noise Marines, and ended up going with Termies since they're tougher and I think can better pop open transports.

Troops:
Plague Marines Squad (x 10) + Rhino - 345 points
2 x Melta
Plague Champion: Power Fist, Melta Bombs
Rhino: Havoc Launcher

Rubric Marines Squad (x 9) + Aspiring Sorcerer – 292 points
Aspiring Sorcerer: Warptime

Notes: The flexible response CSMs got taken out to fortify my tank busters over in Heavy Support.


Heavy Support:
Obliterator Squad (x 3) – 225 points

Havoc Squad (x 17) – 430 points
Mark of Nurgle, Lascannon (x3), Missile Launcher (x1)

Chaos Vindicator – 145 points
Daemonic Possession

Notes: The giant blob of Havocs is mostly there because I started with 7 and found that I had 163 points left over. I also figured that, outside of my Obliterators, my lascannons would be my best bet for tank-popping, so having lots of ablative wounds to protect them would be nice. Also, the Havocs have Mark of Nurgle since I figured that they'd be hunkered down in cover for most of the time, so an invulnerable save wouldn't have been as useful as more toughness.

TOTAL POINTS: 1987

Any criticism is highly appreciated. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, my first advice is to wait a bit; rumor has it that Chaos Legions is going to be one of the first codex releases in the upcoming new edition.

Of course, we don't have anything substantive, because GW treats their release schedule like it was a matter of national security.

Apart from that, though, you have nowhere near enough Troops choices. Troops are the only units that can hold objectives, and in 2000 points a canny opponent will murder yours very, very quickly in an objective-based scenario (which is 2/3 of them if you roll randomly) if you only have two.

[13_CBS]

Well, my first advice is to wait a bit; rumor has it that Chaos Legions is going to be one of the first codex releases in the upcoming new edition.

Of course, we don't have anything substantive, because GW treats their release schedule like it was a matter of national security.

Ah.

In that case, would anyone mind critiquing my army lists as a thought exercise? :smallbiggrin:

[Callistarius]

Not sure if a probable release date has been mentioned, but my local GW (in Australia) is advertising a "Super-Fantastico New Release!" for Saturday 30th June.

It was also strongly hinted that initial release may be hardcover rulebook only, not a boxed set like AoBR. If they do it as a hardcover release of same size as WHFB that would suggest $124AUD for a possible price.

[Cheesegear]

Of course, we don't have anything substantive, because GW treats their release schedule like it was a matter of national security.

I've been told the reason for this. And it's all about misinformation. That's all you really need to know. And if I say more I'll probably rage out.


It was also strongly hinted that initial release may be hardcover rulebook only, not a boxed set like AoBR

That's normal. Boxes don't come 'til later. Same with Battleforces, you aren't likely to see them for three months after Codex release. Also, the price is most likely indicative of size. Similar to the WHFB book.


Also, good news for Australian kids; It's a new financial year, and Australia was not hit by the price hike (:smallamused:). A few items went up, but nothing substantial so far.

[thereaper]

So, I was thinking about getting into W40K. I saw a game once, was intrigued, and love everything I read about the setting (except the Necron retcon and anything by Matt Ward). The GK interest me the most (yes, I know, not a good newbie army). I've so far only skimmed the rulebook (this thing is so rules heavy it's making my head spin) and some guides (mainly ones linked in the first post).

The hypothetical army I was thinking about would include Draigo, about 10 Paladins (4 psycannons) and 3 Dreadnoughts (two with double TL autocannons and psybolt ammo, the other with a multimelta and heavy flamer). This leaves me with 45 points left (that I have no idea what to do with, since I have no idea what I'm doing in general).

I put it together under the following assumptions I made upon my reading of the guides:

- Paladins exist for force multiplication (as an example, I don't know what psybolt ammo does, but if it helps I can see why Paladins would be attractive; a 10 man unit all buffed for a relatively small price)
- Draigo somehow facilitates this, is absurdly powerful, and makes Paladins troops
- Psycannons are awesme (not sure why, maybe they're decent against vehicles?)
- Dreadnoughts with TL autocannons can stand far away and pew pew things (like artillery, really)
- GKs don't have a lot of melta and flamers (melta is really good against heavy armor, I heard, and flamers help against hordes?)

Of course, I have no idea what I'm doing, so...Help and wisdom for a newbie plz?

[Cheesegear]

I've so far only skimmed the rulebook (this thing is so rules heavy it's making my head spin) and some guides (mainly ones linked in the first post).

Forget the rulebook. It changes in a few weeks. 6th Ed is about to hit the game very soon. This month, where nobody knows what's happening, is potentially the worst time you could start the game.

The Guides linked in the first post, may or may not be made redundant, or may need heavy editing.


Of course, I have no idea what I'm doing, so...Help and wisdom for a newbie plz?

Here's the good news; The Codecies are not changing. Which means Draigo will still do everything the book says he does, and Paladins will still be good, as Infantry are likely to get better with the new edition, rather than worse, whilst simultaneously 'light' vehicles and Walkers (Dreadnoughts), and Skimmers will get worse - or rumoured to be.

Again, 'Marines being Marines' Grey Knights are unlikely to get hit badly by the edition change, as the name of the game seems to be "Make shooting worse, make Moving and/or Assault better."
Grey Knights - an 'all'round army' - don't particularly care which route the game takes because everyone has Force Weapons and Psycannons.

So, yeah. Buy the Codex. Buy an HQ and two Troops of your choice (The FO chart is unlikely to change, and we may or may not see a rule limiting cookie-cut non-Troops like in Fantasy). By the time you've painted them (paint!), 6th should hit the shelves and we'll be able to advise you better.

[thereaper]

I've heard some things about the edition change (all bad stuff, though; assault coming before shooting, tau suddenly being mankind's best friend).

I don't intend on actually buying anything before it comes out, though; I was just planning things out now (and screw painting; I ain't got that kind of time! They're grey knights, I'll let 'em stay that way! :smallyuk: ).

But if Dreadnoughts are going to be nerfed, I might consider dropping the pew pew ones and investing in a stormraven and additional paladin or two.

But hypothetically, if I were to start tomorrow, would a setup like this be cripplingly pathetic (I don't care if it's good; I just wouldn't want to lose before I began)?

[Cheesegear]

and screw painting

:smallsigh:


But if Dreadnoughts are going to be nerfed, I might consider dropping the pew pew ones and investing in a stormraven and additional paladin or two.

Skimmers are going to be nerfed too. Don't invest in a Stormraven either. Like I said; HQ and 2 Troops. That's all you should be looking at buying right now.


But hypothetically, if I were to start tomorrow, would a setup like this be cripplingly pathetic (I don't care if it's good; I just wouldn't want to lose before I began)?

You should be expecting to lose your first few games.

Anyway, it depends on your opponents. It's a good army. But, the meta has risen to meet Paladins. If your opponents are competitive, your Paladins will get pooped on. Paladins are a pub-stomp list, they'll crush newbs and noobs alike, but, otherwise they'll be eating Missiles and Lances all day.

Paladins are fine. But you can get the same amount of hitting power, for less points by taking regular Terminators. Sure, Paladins have 2 Wounds each, but having 10 models is the same as 5 Paladins and outputs double the firepower.
Draigo still does what he says on the tin, but you don't need Paladins, not really.

[thereaper]

:smallsigh:



Skimmers are going to be nerfed too. Don't invest in a Stormraven either. Like I said; HQ and 2 Troops. That's all you should be looking at buying right now.



You should be expecting to lose your first few games.

Anyway, it depends on your opponents. It's a good army. But, the meta has risen to meet Paladins. If your opponents are competitive, your Paladins will get pooped on. Paladins are a pub-stomp list, they'll crush newbs and noobs alike, but, otherwise they'll be eating Missiles and Lances all day.

Paladins are fine. But you can get the same amount of hitting power, for less points by taking regular Terminators. Sure, Paladins have 2 Wounds each, but having 10 models is the same as 5 Paladins and outputs double the firepower.
Draigo still does what he says on the tin, but you don't need Paladins, not really.

Of course, I say I won't bother painting them now. Talk to me again once I've actually played a few games. :smallwink:

I want to lose because my opponent was better than me, not because I put together a crappy army.

[Cheesegear]

I want to lose because my opponent was better than me, not because I put together a crappy army.

Oh, well then you'll be fine.

[Wraith]

I put it together under the following assumptions I made upon my reading of the guides:

- Paladins exist for force multiplication (as an example, I don't know what psybolt ammo does, but if it helps I can see why Paladins would be attractive; a 10 man unit all buffed for a relatively small price)

Psybolt Ammo gives their guns +1 strength. There's usually little reason NOT to take this upgrade if you have a small handful of points going spare (though in Grey Knights, that is NEVER guaranteed) so between that and the huge number of different close combat weapons they can take, they just become 'better'.


- Draigo somehow facilitates this, is absurdly powerful, and makes Paladins troops

Draigo is indeed very powerful, but his main use is to change Paladin into Troops. and making Paladins into troops is *how* Draigo Force Multiplies Paladins. To him, Psybolt Ammo has such a small effect in the grand scheme of things that you don't need to worry about it too much.


- Psycannons are awesme (not sure why, maybe they're decent against vehicles?)

Paladins (and anyone else in Terminator armour) have a special rule called "Relentless", and it means that they can treat Heavy weapons as Assault Weapons. Simply put, in the case of Psycannons it means that Paladin get twice as many shots per turn and then still run forward and stab someone in the face afterwards, whereas orfinary Grey Knights have to choose one or the other.

On top of that, yes - they are decent against quite a lot of vehicles and virtually everything else, even before you give them to someone who is Relentless.


- Dreadnoughts with TL autocannons can stand far away and pew pew things (like artillery, really)

This has never been a particularly bad choice for any Space Marine Army, and I don't foresee it being changed too much in the near future.
Grey Knights being Grey Knights, however, you'd get a lot more firepower out of a squad of Purgators armed with Psycannons. You'd get more shots per turn, the unit would be harder to kill outright, and for almost the same points cost.


- GKs don't have a lot of melta and flamers (melta is really good against heavy armor, I heard, and flamers help against hordes?)

Correct on both accounts, though unlike quite a few other armies who have the same problems Grey Knights have several other ways to deal with them.
They can take Psychic Powers that, combined with certain types of Close Combat weapons (Daemonhammers in particular), make it quite easy to punch a hole in the side of a tank, and for Hordes they can just take even more Relentless Psycannons and blitz the opponent with a ridiculously high number of individual shots, rather than one or two shots that hit more than one enemy. :smallsmile:


Of course, I have no idea what I'm doing, so...Help and wisdom for a newbie plz?

Quite frankly, you're doing fairly well so far! :smallsmile:
Learning the Codex so that you understand the nuances of what you need to do will probably solve every other question you need answered, but so far you have chosen an army that is going to be very small (Paladin and Draigo in particular come with a substantial points cost, so you won't be able to afford lots of them AND all of your other toys in abundance) but will likely be able to crush anything it touches.

From hereon out, it just takes practice. :smallwink:

[Bavarian itP]

I want to lose because my opponent was better than me, not because I put together a crappy army.

Play chess ... :smalleek:

Seriously, 40k has a hard time fulfilling this wish. You don't play GW games because of the tactical experience or the sublime rules, but for the atmosphere.

[Cheesegear]

Play chess ... :smalleek:

Seriously, 40k has a hard time fulfilling this wish.

QFT. Due to random chance, 40K isn't actually fair. To some extent, regardless of skill level and army choice, you can still lose to a 10 year old who slapped together his list that morning.

Besides. Chess is broken. White always goes first. White OP, nerf nao.

[HalfTangible]

Play chess ... :smalleek:

Seriously, 40k has a hard time fulfilling this wish. You don't play GW games because of the tactical experience or the sublime rules, but for the atmosphere.:smallconfused:

I was under the impression that every 40K army can hold their own to some extent (though how WELL they do so is up for debate) and that the main unfairness in the guy is the fact that outcomes are determined by dice roll.


Besides. Chess is broken. White always goes first. White OP, nerf nao.

lol xD

[DaedalusMkV]

QFT. Due to random chance, 40K isn't actually fair. To some extent, regardless of skill level and army choice, you can still lose to a 10 year old who slapped together his list that morning.

Besides. Chess is broken. White always goes first. White OP, nerf nao.

Bah, going first grants minimal tactical advantage and does nothing but telegraph your strategy. Black OP, nerf nao.

Also, yes. I've beat armies I have no business beating and lost to a 12-year-old with an awful list and no grasp of strategy. I've seen five Terminators die to three Lasguns and three Wraiths pass 26 Invulnerable saves in a row. While generalship and armylist plays a huge part in the outcome, if the Dice Gods want someone to lose that someone is already beaten. If fairness is what you want, play a game with no dice.

[shadowwalker64]

Hello, Warhammerers In the Playground. I pop in here from time to time to ask inane questions, but this time I have something a little more substantive. :smallsmile:

I plan on getting a job soon, and if/once I do I hope to one day save enough monies to start playing WH40k. I'm hoping for my first army to be a Thousand-Sons themed Chaos Space Marine army, so I've come up with a first draft army list for it. However, I have absolutely 0 playing experience, and though I've read the rule books I've yet to even see a game being played, as 40k games don't happen very often at my local hobby store and I don't even visit that store very often anyway. So I turn to you, veteran Hammerers, for any advice you could give me on this army on optimizing it.

Some things of note:

The primary focus of this army is to be shooty, with a secondary emphasis on being tough to kill (invulnerable saves abound)--the first because doing so feels appropriately Tzeentchy, the second because I tend to prefer minimizing casualties in any strategy game I play, perhaps to a fault.

I have no idea what my future metagame will be like--in fact, by the time I start playing the new Chaos codex or Edition might appear.

There are 2 versions of this list: 1500 points and 2000 points.

Army List: 2000 points version

HQ:
Chaos Lord – 165 points
Terminator Armor
Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon
Death Screamer
Bolt of Change

Notes: I was toying with including a 2nd HQ unit here, namely a Daemon Prince, but again Daemon Princes don't seem very shooty to me. Am I missing something, or are DPs mainly for melee?

Elites:
Terminator Squad (x10) – 385 points
Mark of Tzeentch, Reaper Autocannon (x2)

Notes: Tough, shooty units that can also pop light vehicles. I was deciding between these and Noise Marines, and ended up going with Termies since they're tougher and I think can better pop open transports.

Troops:
Plague Marines Squad (x 10) + Rhino - 345 points
2 x Melta
Plague Champion: Power Fist, Melta Bombs
Rhino: Havoc Launcher

Rubric Marines Squad (x 9) + Aspiring Sorcerer – 292 points
Aspiring Sorcerer: Warptime

Notes: The flexible response CSMs got taken out to fortify my tank busters over in Heavy Support.


Heavy Support:
Obliterator Squad (x 3) – 225 points

Havoc Squad (x 17) – 430 points
Mark of Nurgle, Lascannon (x3), Missile Launcher (x1)

Chaos Vindicator – 145 points
Daemonic Possession

Notes: The giant blob of Havocs is mostly there because I started with 7 and found that I had 163 points left over. I also figured that, outside of my Obliterators, my lascannons would be my best bet for tank-popping, so having lots of ablative wounds to protect them would be nice. Also, the Havocs have Mark of Nurgle since I figured that they'd be hunkered down in cover for most of the time, so an invulnerable save wouldn't have been as useful as more toughness.

TOTAL POINTS: 1987

Any criticism is highly appreciated. Thanks! :smallsmile:

I'll try my best to critique the 2000pts, since I have a little more experience in that departmant

Army List: 2000 points version

HQ:
Chaos Lord – 165 points
Terminator Armor
Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon
Death Screamer
Bolt of Change

Lords sadly cannot have Psychic Powers, though this is otherwise a good setup for him. You could also run a prince here, but I'm always under the impression that you should run them in pairs to force your opponent to split fire. If you really wanted to include princes, two Tzeentch ones w/ Bolt of change and Wind really work wonders. I struggle to see, however, where you would put it, as explained later, which may mean that the princes are a better idea.

Elites:
Terminator Squad (x10) – 385 points
Mark of Tzeentch, Reaper Autocannon (x2)

I'm assuming you are deepstriking these, judging by the presence of an icon on the lord and the fact that you've said that the lascannons on obliterators are going to be how to pop tanks as opposed to the melta weapons that the obliterators have. This is also the only place you could put your lord with any effect, and, while a deadly combination is overkill for shooting most infantry squads with little to no threat to vehicles. The lord also cannot use his ic,on if he deepstrikes with these guys, as it states that the icon has to be on the table in the beginning of the move phase to be of effect. The squad is also a very large fire magnet for your opponent to target. Sadly you have little to entice your opponent to shoot otherwise, so what would otherwise be a good distraction carnifex is slightly wasted. At nearly 400pts for the squad, you do not want this to happen.

Consider splitting the termies into two seperate squads of 3-5. Giving 1 in each squad a reaper autocannon and the rest combi-meltas (with maybe 1 combi-flamer to deal with the occassional blob). This not only allows you to potentially cripple two vehicles/squads in a turn, but also splits your opponents fire again. If you want to go cheaper, just have three with combi-meltas in a squad with no mark. As a rule of thumb, Chaos terminators are suicide squads to take out an important target because they're cheap and are reliable with the right army set-up.

Troops:
Plague Marines Squad (x 10) + Rhino - 345 points
2 x Melta
Plague Champion: Power Fist, Melta Bombs
Rhino: Havoc Launcher

Keep plague marines at 7 members, as it gets too expensive otherwise. Consider giving the champion a personal icon if you go with the terminator setup above. You don't really need a Havoc Launcher: I've always felt extra armour was more important. If you really want to give it a weapon, stick a Combi-flamer on it to soften up troops in cover who might otherwise threaten the plague marines next turn, leaving your plague marines to focus on a vehicle threat, for example. The beauty of this is that you can blow open transports with the marines, flame the occupants and then assault them with the marines after to protect the marines or wipe a squad (if plague marines get into an assault, I find that they either wipe them or just stay there)

Rubric Marines Squad (x 9) + Aspiring Sorcerer – 292 points
Aspiring Sorcerer: Warptime

No Bolt of Change or Wind makes me sad. No Rhino also is a bummer, but I feel this has to be changed anyway.


Your troops choices are low. This is bad. Remember that troops are your scroing units and, unless you are playing kill points all the time, they're the guys who need to hodl your objectives. Unless you are looking to table (wipe out) your opponent's troops (hardly happens with chaos army setups), it's wise to really beef up the troops until you look somewhere else. At this points level, 4 troops choices are good, though 5 is better. Thankfully, we're chaos marines: we get our basic troops nice and cheap for what they are capable of.

Another identical squad of plague marines will allow you to charge up the board to take the contested objective and hold it relatively well. This could be supported by your Thousand Son's squad who can pop vehicles with Bolt or Wind some cover-hugging infantry to death. A 10-man squad of Chaos Marines (w/ Missile Launcher/Lascannon and Plasma Gun) can hold your home objective. Giving them Mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle wouldn't be a bad idea either. If points are of a concern, you could replace one nurgle squad with another CSM squad but with double melta/flamer instead, which should be cheaper while providing more bodies. Just remember to give the CSM squads Chaos Glory Icons to stop them running away.

Heavy Support:
Obliterator Squad (x 3) – 225 points

Fine. Remember that if it would be more suitable (eg if there's a lot of places for vehicles to stay out of your LoS), you can deepstrike these guys. If points are a concern, Swap this out with a Predator with Lascannon Sponsons. Cheap and gives something else to pop tanks at range.

Havoc Squad (x 17) – 430 points
Mark of Nurgle, Lascannon (x3), Missile Launcher (x1)

Much, much too expensive. Ablative wounds goes up to 10: 20 is overkill. The mark is generally unnecessary since your troops should give your opponent enough to worry about so they won't be shooting at the Havocs as much (and if they do, they've now got to deal with more Cult marines in their half). Missile launchers are cheaper and have more utility than Lascannons, so at least have two (4 missile launchers saves you 45pts).

Chaos Vindicator – 145 points
Daemonic Possession

I've always been iffy on Vindicators in the first place, since I've always held the strong belief that anything that they do Defilers can do better, and more. Vanilla defiler only is 5 points cheaper but has CC ability and two more ranged weapons in case that Battle cannon gets torn off. It can also fire its ordanace weapon on the move, whilst the vindicator cannot. Use the spare points to get a defiler, get a Predator with Lascannon Sponsons or on troops choices.

TOTAL POINTS: 1987

In general, no matter who you play, you want to make sure you always have enough troops choices to do the job. Also consider how much of what you need. Meltas are your prime source of (most armies') anti-tank, but you still need ranged anti-tank to pop transports and stunlock heavier vehicles). Also, Boyz over Toyz: make sure you have enough numbers in your list before tricking out on luxury stuff. Some upgrades are unavoidable (weapons, Icons for CSM squads, etc.) but just cut down as much as you can before spending on other things. Also avoid taking 'death star' units in anything outside of a dedicated CC squad, and even then... More squads each with less troops is preferable, since it gives you more tactical flexibility with units (especially true with non-troops choices).


Sorry for the late reply but I hope this helps

[Bavarian itP]

:smallconfused:

I was under the impression that every 40K army can hold their own to some extent (though how WELL they do so is up for debate) and that the main unfairness in the guy is the fact that outcomes are determined by dice roll.


I don't see much relation between your post and mine, so please explain why you quoted me here :smallwink:


Chess is broken. White always goes first. White OP, nerf nao.

Oh no, if only players could switch colours between the games of a match :smallwink:

[thereaper]

On another note, I've heard something about illegal armies. What exactly constitutes an illegal army (besides using too many points)?

[Renegade Paladin]

On another note, I've heard something about illegal armies. What exactly constitutes an illegal army (besides using too many points)?
Breaking the force organization chart. Having three HQs, four heavy support, only one troops, that sort of thing.

[thereaper]

And yet another question. The GK Dreadnought has a built-in storm bolter on the doomfist. Does trading the doomfist remove the storm bolter too (so you can't trade it away for something else)?

[Closet_Skeleton]

And yet another question. The GK Dreadnought has a built-in storm bolter on the doomfist. Does trading the doomfist remove the storm bolter too (so you can't trade it away for something else)?

Yes.

Losing the arm loses you the bolter too.

[Teln]

Breaking the force organization chart. Having three HQs, four heavy support, only one troops, that sort of thing.

It must be noted that some armies have special rules that permit them to break the org chart to a degree--Space Wolves can have up to 4 HQs and Imperial Guard get to cram multiple units into Platoons that only take up one Troop choice no matter how large they are. I'm not aware of any other armies that can do this, but I'm not a rules expert.

[HalfTangible]

It must be noted that some armies have special rules that permit them to break the org chart to a degree--Space Wolves can have up to 4 HQs and Imperial Guard get to cram multiple units into Platoons that only take up one Troop choice no matter how large they are. I'm not aware of any other armies that can do this, but I'm not a rules expert.

Some armies can count their units as either-or if you take specific HQ units. Deathwing can take terminators as troop OR elite choices, i believe... which basically means you can have a massive number of elite units without breaking the chart.

[Teln]

Yes, but that wasn't quite what I had in mind. Space Wolf HQ rules and Guard Platoon rules are always active, no matter what, while reassignment via special characters requires you to buy the character in question first.

[DaedalusMkV]

It must be noted that some armies have special rules that permit them to break the org chart to a degree--Space Wolves can have up to 4 HQs and Imperial Guard get to cram multiple units into Platoons that only take up one Troop choice no matter how large they are. I'm not aware of any other armies that can do this, but I'm not a rules expert.

There are also quite a few units that don't count into any force organization slot between all of the armies. Tau Honor Guard don't take up any slots and their Sniper Drone squadrons get you three units to a FO slot. Chaos Space Marine Spawn, Greater and Lesser Summoned Daemons also don't count towards any slots, though they do have their own limitations. Imperial Guard Ministorum Priests are in the same boat. Then there's Space Marine Command Squads of all types, Eldar Seer Councils and Tyranid Tyrant Guard, which are all bodyguard-style units that aren't part of their leaders' unit but still don't take up FOC slots. I think that's it, though. There used to be a lot more things that played with the FOC (Iron Warriors got more Heavy Support choices (and Night Lords more Fast Attack), Inquisitorial groups had FOSs occupied by things that weren't even units, Imperial Guard had half a dozen slotless units with wierd deployment rules), but by and large that sort of thing is getting phased out of the game in favor of character that change unit slots around.

I attended my second tourney ever over the weekend with my Imperial Guard; managed to take Best General because the only guy with more Battle Points than me took Best Overall. By and large it was all kinds of fun, with only one bad game thrown in (he had a bad grasp of the rules, yet insisted on challenging everything I did other than move and shoot). It was a bunch of wonky missions, and the TOs seemed to have an intense irrational hatred of all things with a range of more than 24" (two games had all-game Night Fight, one had Night Fight for the first two turns, one improved everyone's cover save by 1 additive with Stealth). I may have to attend more of these 'tournament' things in the future.

[HalfTangible]

Yes, but that wasn't quite what I had in mind. Space Wolf HQ rules and Guard Platoon rules are always active, no matter what, while reassignment via special characters requires you to buy the character in question first.

I know, that was more of a 'in addition' thing.

If you play blood angels you can take multiple sanguinary priests (1-3, one of which can be a special character call Brother Corbulo) and only take up one elite slot. I assume other armies have similar rules, but i don't know, I play BA :smalltongue:

[13_CBS]

Thanks for the response! :smallsmile:

HQ:
Chaos Lord – 165 points



Lords sadly cannot have Psychic Powers, though this is otherwise a good setup for him. You could also run a prince here, but I'm always under the impression that you should run them in pairs to force your opponent to split fire. If you really wanted to include princes, two Tzeentch ones w/ Bolt of change and Wind really work wonders. I struggle to see, however, where you would put it, as explained later, which may mean that the princes are a better idea.

I was seriously considering using a Daemon Prince instead, but again I was concerned about relying entirely on psychic powers for shooting. What if, for example, I'm up against an army that can seriously disrupt my psykers? Chaos Lords just seemed better for shooting, despite the Daemon Weapon rule. Are psychic powers that reliable?

Elites:
Terminator Squad (x10) – 385 points



I'm assuming you are deepstriking these, judging by the presence of an icon on the lord and the fact that you've said that the lascannons on obliterators are going to be how to pop tanks as opposed to the melta weapons that the obliterators have. This is also the only place you could put your lord with any effect, and, while a deadly combination is overkill for shooting most infantry squads with little to no threat to vehicles. The lord also cannot use his ic,on if he deepstrikes with these guys, as it states that the icon has to be on the table in the beginning of the move phase to be of effect. The squad is also a very large fire magnet for your opponent to target. Sadly you have little to entice your opponent to shoot otherwise, so what would otherwise be a good distraction carnifex is slightly wasted. At nearly 400pts for the squad, you do not want this to happen.

Consider splitting the termies into two seperate squads of 3-5. Giving 1 in each squad a reaper autocannon and the rest combi-meltas (with maybe 1 combi-flamer to deal with the occassional blob). This not only allows you to potentially cripple two vehicles/squads in a turn, but also splits your opponents fire again. If you want to go cheaper, just have three with combi-meltas in a squad with no mark. As a rule of thumb, Chaos terminators are suicide squads to take out an important target because they're cheap and are reliable with the right army set-up.

Hrm...I'm not sure if I want suicide squads. I'm going to go back and see if I can replace these with more shooty Troops or something.



Troops:
Plague Marines Squad (x 10) + Rhino - 345 points



Keep plague marines at 7 members, as it gets too expensive otherwise. Consider giving the champion a personal icon if you go with the terminator setup above. You don't really need a Havoc Launcher: I've always felt extra armour was more important. If you really want to give it a weapon, stick a Combi-flamer on it to soften up troops in cover who might otherwise threaten the plague marines next turn, leaving your plague marines to focus on a vehicle threat, for example. The beauty of this is that you can blow open transports with the marines, flame the occupants and then assault them with the marines after to protect the marines or wipe a squad (if plague marines get into an assault, I find that they either wipe them or just stay there)

Fair enough. With the points saved perhaps I could get the Rubrics a rhino. Also, I mainly included the Havoc Launchers on the rhinos because my other source of WH40K advice, 1d4chan.org, seems to really like it. Are Havoc Launchers that bad?


Rubric Marines Squad (x 9) + Aspiring Sorcerer – 292 points



No Bolt of Change or Wind makes me sad. No Rhino also is a bummer, but I feel this has to be changed anyway.

The lack of shooty psychic powers is partly a result of my reluctance to rely on shooty psychic powers and partly because this blog (http://www.3plusplus.net/) tells me that Chaos psychic powers are at best mediocre (except maybe the Lash). Though looking at my army again I have practically NO psychic powers, which doesn't fit the Thousand Sons theme too much. Hrm...

Misc. on troops:



Your troops choices are low. This is bad. Remember that troops are your scroing units and, unless you are playing kill points all the time, they're the guys who need to hodl your objectives. Unless you are looking to table (wipe out) your opponent's troops (hardly happens with chaos army setups), it's wise to really beef up the troops until you look somewhere else. At this points level, 4 troops choices are good, though 5 is better. Thankfully, we're chaos marines: we get our basic troops nice and cheap for what they are capable of.

Another identical squad of plague marines will allow you to charge up the board to take the contested objective and hold it relatively well. This could be supported by your Thousand Son's squad who can pop vehicles with Bolt or Wind some cover-hugging infantry to death. A 10-man squad of Chaos Marines (w/ Missile Launcher/Lascannon and Plasma Gun) can hold your home objective. Giving them Mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle wouldn't be a bad idea either. If points are of a concern, you could replace one nurgle squad with another CSM squad but with double melta/flamer instead, which should be cheaper while providing more bodies. Just remember to give the CSM squads Chaos Glory Icons to stop them running away.

Got it. Should each of these new Troops squads have their own Rhinos, too?

Heavy Support:
Obliterator Squad (x 3) – 225 points



Fine. Remember that if it would be more suitable (eg if there's a lot of places for vehicles to stay out of your LoS), you can deepstrike these guys. If points are a concern, Swap this out with a Predator with Lascannon Sponsons. Cheap and gives something else to pop tanks at range.

I keep hearing that Predators are pretty lame, which is why they weren't included, but I'll think about it.


Havoc Squad (x 17) – 430 points



Much, much too expensive. Ablative wounds goes up to 10: 20 is overkill. The mark is generally unnecessary since your troops should give your opponent enough to worry about so they won't be shooting at the Havocs as much (and if they do, they've now got to deal with more Cult marines in their half). Missile launchers are cheaper and have more utility than Lascannons, so at least have two (4 missile launchers saves you 45pts).

How reliable are Krak missiles at popping tanks? I gave them a look, and they seemed okay for destroying transports, but what about AV 13 and heavier stuff? Are Krak missiles consistent at destroying those?

Chaos Vindicator – 145 points



I've always been iffy on Vindicators in the first place, since I've always held the strong belief that anything that they do Defilers can do better, and more. Vanilla defiler only is 5 points cheaper but has CC ability and two more ranged weapons in case that Battle cannon gets torn off. It can also fire its ordanace weapon on the move, whilst the vindicator cannot. Use the spare points to get a defiler, get a Predator with Lascannon Sponsons or on troops choices.


I think I read somewhere that Defilers were really bad; IIRC, it was either here by Cheesegear or at that 3++ site I linked to. Are Defilers that good? Or did I misread something?



Sorry for the late reply but I hope this helps

It helped a lot! Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Penguinizer]

Here's the way I see it as a fellow CSM player.

Lord:

Aside from the psychic powers thing, seems solid. I'm more partial to a Daemon Prince since they're also really good in melee. They're huge firemagnets though.
I prefer to have Lords be more of a melee monster though.


Terminators:

You really should have them in smaller squads. Having one huge squads means all your reapers have to fire at the same target. If you have 3 separate squads you can split your fire much better. You should also give the ones without autocannons combimeltas since they're incredibly cheap and allaround fantastic. You should also give one of them a powerfist as powerfists are absolute killers this edition. I prefer running my terminators without a mark since they're really expensive.

I'd recommend having squads that are somewhere to the tune of:
3x Terminator, Reaper Autocannon, 1x Powerfist, 2x Combimelta. 140
You can get 3 of them for just a bit more than the one huge squad. The difference is that they're much more flexible. While there are some downsides (easier to kill off) I think it's still worth running terminators in small squads.


Troops:

Plaguemarines: They should always be run in squads of 5-7. In this edition, you need large amounts of troops. Larger squads over multiple smaller ones are only (in my opinion) great on IG or melee deathblobs. Adding a powerfist is always solid but I find that they're much too expensive.

My preferred loadout is:
6x Plaguemarine, 2x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-melta. 198

Rubric Marines (I'm assuming thousand sons): Once again, multiple smaller squads are better. Troops also require a rhino especially with Slow and Purposeful. I'd run them in squads of 5 with Bolt of Change. Warptime got nerfed hard and honestly isn't worth it on the aspiring sorcerer so I'd recommed the str 8 shot from Bolt of Change or Wind of Chaos.


Heavy Support:

Havocs: I don't really think it's worth taking that many havocs. Any extras not taking heavy weapons are in my opinion ablative wounds. They're not going to be (hopefully) getting into close combat and if they're at range with their heavy weapons the rest are just wasted. I'd just use the extra points for more troops.

Obliterators: Always a solid pick.

Vindicator: Also solid.

Overall, I prefer taking 3 groups of 3 Obliterators but that's just me being a powergaming sillyface.


That's my 2 cents.

Also: Defilers. I have no idea about them and they cost roughly an arm and a leg. They do have a good bit of firepower. I may try them out if I can borrow some but 52 euros for something I probably will only use once in a blue moon is too much.

[Timberwolf]

Here's what I think so far, just on what's been effective against me.


HQ:
Chaos Lord – 165 points



I was seriously considering using a Daemon Prince instead, but again I was concerned about relying entirely on psychic powers for shooting. What if, for example, I'm up against an army that can seriously disrupt my psykers? Chaos Lords just seemed better for shooting, despite the Daemon Weapon rule. Are psychic powers that reliable?

Psychic powers are nice, but if you want reliable shooting, HQ's do not provide this. They are pretty much exclusively Close Combat. And yes, Runes of Warding, Synapse and Psychic hoods will seriously disrupt this. If you want a shooty HQ, a Tzeentch sorceror is a good choice. Hide him in a unit and start throwing bolts of change and Gifts of Chaos.

Elites:
Terminator Squad (x10) – 385 points



Hrm...I'm not sure if I want suicide squads. I'm going to go back and see if I can replace these with more shooty Troops or something.

Knock them down to a 5 man squad, attach a Terminator Lord or Flabbadon, give them a Reaper Autocannon, Lightning Claws and the Mark of Khorne or Reaper, Power Weapon, Combi melta and the Mark of Slaanesh (+1 Initiative of these fellas is Golden). Make sure you include a Chainfist in the unit to deal with unpleasant walkers and tanks and put them in a Possessed Land Raider. Roll forward, laugh as most things bounce off the armour and then go kill things. 10 is too many and a real danger for deep strikes, which without a Tranport you will want to do because no one is going to let you footslog that many Termis unscathed.


Troops:
Plague Marines Squad (x 10) + Rhino - 345 points



Fair enough. With the points saved perhaps I could get the Rubrics a rhino. Also, I mainly included the Havoc Launchers on the rhinos because my other source of WH40K advice, 1d4chan.org, seems to really like it. Are Havoc Launchers that bad?

4Chan, bleh. Home of angry people. They will hate the way i do Blood Angels (No Razorbacks ? HERESY !) At the end of the day, you've got to play the way you like. Havoc Launchers are great if the Rhino's not moving much. Make sure you have Melta or Plasma on these boys. Plasma's good because of FNP.


Rubric Marines Squad (x 9) + Aspiring Sorcerer – 292 points



The lack of shooty psychic powers is partly a result of my reluctance to rely on shooty psychic powers and partly because this blog (http://www.3plusplus.net/) tells me that Chaos psychic powers are at best mediocre (except maybe the Lash). Though looking at my army again I have practically NO psychic powers, which doesn't fit the Thousand Sons theme too much. Hrm...

Thousand Sons are situational. I've not seen them much. Giving the Sorceror the S8 shot (Doombolt ?) is worth it as not even the Eldar can stop every psychic power.

Misc. on troops:



Got it. Should each of these new Troops squads have their own Rhinos, too?

Rhinoes are useful and it means you've got to kill the vehicle to get at the squishy inside.

Heavy Support:
Obliterator Squad (x 3) – 225 points



I keep hearing that Predators are pretty lame, which is why they weren't included, but I'll think about it.

Obliterators are great, just keep them away from Lascannons, Melta or Blood Angels Players who use Stormravens *innocent look* By trimming the Havoc Squad, you might well have enough for a Predator, but really, A andraider for Terminator transport would serve better.


Havoc Squad (x 17) – 430 points



How reliable are Krak missiles at popping tanks? I gave them a look, and they seemed okay for destroying transports, but what about AV 13 and heavier stuff? Are Krak missiles consistent at destroying those?

Krak missiles on AV14 are not reliable at all. But for things like that, there is melta.As said previously, 10 marines tops is fine, but I'd trade these boys outright for a Landraider for getting those Terminators to the right place.

Chaos Vindicator – 145 points



I think I read somewhere that Defilers were really bad; IIRC, it was either here by Cheesegear or at that 3++ site I linked to. Are Defilers that good? Or did I misread something?

A Vindicator is always solid, but as it stands, it will be Priority Antitank target number 2, after the 3 Obliterators. You need more armour to mitigate the tendency for people to shoot them in that nice thin side armour. A tank like, say, a Landraider loaded with Terminators, will achieve this.


Not being a Chaos player, I don't have the Codex, so cant' talk points but with the thinned down Terminator squad and losing the Havocs, I make it that you just saved roughly 620 points.

So, that's a possessed Landraider that means your lord and Terminators get to ride in style and the Vindactor will get shot at less (and if it does get shot, well, that just improved the chances of your Landraider of getting there to unload the nasty by rather a lot)

After that, a Rhino full of Khorne Berserkers will give you some ragingly tough Melee support for the Termis while still being a scoring unit. And with the change, that should be Rhinoes for your plague Marines and Thouand Sons. Add the other advice Penguiniser gave you and take what will work for you. Hope that helps.

[Cheesegear]

There are 2 versions of this list: 1500 points and 2000 points.

'Kay. I'll try not to overlap on too many things that other people have already said.


Chaos Lord – 165 points
Terminator Armor
Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon
Death Screamer
Bolt of Change

Chaos Lord - 140 Points
Daemon Weapon, Combi-Melta

Take Mark of Nurgle or Slaanesh. Or nothing. Apply points. It'll still be cheaper. You want this guy dominating combat, and being unable to Sweeping Advance cuts that right out from under him. Especially because you don't have Terminators. Also, the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon is bad.

Otherwise...

Sorcerer - 155 Points
Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change

Sorcerers are expensive. A Force Weapon is kind of like a Blissgiver.


Chaos Space Marines Squad (x 9) + Rhino – 215 points
Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun
Aspiring Champion: Power Weapon, Melta bombs
Rhino: Havoc Launchers

Why only 9? Is it a points issue? Because if so, you should be taking them out of the below squads, and putting them here for dual special weapons. These guys want Meltaguns, not Plasmaguns. Aspiring Champion is fine. Havoc Launchers are bad. Combi-Melta, or Combi-Flamer.


Plague Marines Squad (x 10) + Rhino - 345 points
Melta Gun (x2)
Plague Champion: Power Fist, Melta Bombs
Rhino: Havoc Launcher

You don't need more than 7. Drop points here and add them above. Take Plasmaguns. Plasma and FNP are best friends forever. Havoc Launchers remain the same as before.


Rubric Marines Squad (x 9) + Aspiring Sorcerer – 292 points
Aspiring Sorcerer: Warptime

Warptime is bad. At least, for this kind of squad. No Rhino makes me sad face. And if you aren't going to put Meltaguns on the CSM squad, or you don't want the Plague Marines on your home objective shooting Plasmaguns all day (i.e; what they should be doing), you need to give a Rhino to Thousand Sons.

These guys want Bolt of Change. So when your opponent is in full-vehicle mode, the Sons can actually do something instead of standing around like idiots.


Obliterator Squad (x 3) – 225 points

Havoc Squad (x 7) – 250 points
Mark of Nurgle, Lascannon, Missile Launcher (x3)

In the current meta-game, Havocs are better than Obliterators unless you're abusing Deep Strike and Icons. But Terminators can also do the same thing for cheaper. So, yeah.

Anything above 5 models, and your Havocs turn into CSMs that don't Score. As in, not good.


but I've also read that one of the biggest weaknesses of CSMs is its lack of cheap, expendable melta, so...

Err...What?
Chosen and Havocs come with a butt-ton. Although you probably don't want your Havocs doing what Chosen do better.
Terminators come in minimum (cheap) squads of 3, and they can all have Combi-Meltas and Deep Strike so the minimum size doesn't matter.
Chaos Marine squads can be minimum (cheap) squads of 5, with a Meltagun and Combi-Melta.
Bikers come in minimum (cheap) squads of 3, with 2 Meltaguns.
Raptors come in minimum squads of 5 with 2 Meltaguns.

All your Rhinos have the option of taking Combi-Meltas.

Where did you read that Chaos Marines don't have cheap Melta? Point it out to me.

If the rumours are true about 6th Ed, that is, Light vehicles are going to be junk and Land Raiders will be competitive and Imperial Guard are going to rule (more, that is), we're going to see a need for less Missile Launchers and more Melta and Lances. Again, everybody not-Marines (Marines includes Chaos), doesn't field Melta very well. While Eldar can field Lances, they don't field Heavy Vehicles.

Anyway, the 2000 point version.


Chaos Lord

Same issues as before. However, this time he'll be running around with Terminators for realsies. You may want the Mark of Nurgle or Slaanesh, since the Mark of Tzeentch weapon isn't going to be doing anything.


Terminator Squad (x10) – 385 points
Mark of Tzeentch, Reaper Autocannon (x2)

Before you made an issue of not having enough Melta. Yet these guys have none. And no Power or Chainfists. Since I know for a fact you've wasted points in this list, I'll show you a proper Terminator unit;

Terminators (x10) - 415 Points
x4 pairs of Lightning Claws
x2 Power Fists [and Twin-Linked Bolters]
x2 Combi-Meltas [and Power Weapons]
x2 Heavy Flamers [and Power Weapon]
Icon of Tzeentch

Use Deep Strike. This unit is only 30 points more than the above. Feel free to swap out Lightning Claws for Combi-Meltas. Ideally, these guys want the Mark of Khorne, and after Deep Strike you remove the Heavy Flamer and Combi-Melta models since they wont be doing anything anymore. But, you're playing Tzeentch/Nurgle (comp goes down the drain if you play with that since Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other).


Plague Marines Squad (x 10) + Rhino - 345 points
Rubric Marines Squad (x 9) + Aspiring Sorcerer – 292 points
Aspiring Sorcerer: Warptime

...All your problems haven't changed. You claim you want more tank-busting, but I'm yet to see that you've even put any in your list at all.


Obliterator Squad (x 3) – 225 points

Havoc Squad (x 17) – 430 points
Mark of Nurgle, Lascannon (x3), Missile Launcher (x1)

I seriously don't understand. You don't need more than 7 Havocs. Five if you're taking multiple units - you should. The x10 Marines you have here have Boltguns. They do nothing. Put them back in your Troops slots where they can have Meltaguns and Rhinos with Combi-Meltas.


Chaos Vindicator – 145 points
Daemonic Possession

This will be the first thing to die, every single game. Chaos Vindicators are really good. But only if you have three of them.

Chaos Space Marines (x5) - 145 Points
Meltagun
Aspiring Champion; Combi-Melta
+ Rhino

Real. Add an Icon of Chaos Glory on the unit and a Combi-Melta to the Rhino for +10/20 points, and you're set.

That's about it.

[thereaper]

Don't the Sisters of Battle have a lot of melta? It would be ironic if 6th edition indirectly buffed them, considering what's been done to them in recent history.

[13_CBS]

As a FYI, the reason why there were 17 Havocs in one of the lists was because, due to my inexperience, I didn't know that 10 extra models for ablative wounds was overkill.

One thing I do have to ask: when is it appropriate to give squads a dedicated transport? I'm starting to see that not every squad needs one, and it looks like it's mostly Troops and melee squads that need them, but aside from that I don't know.

Also: the bit about "Chaos has no expendable melta" was a misunderstanding on my part. The line from the article in question (http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/08/armies-in-5th-chaos-space-marines-part_19.html) was this:


However, most armies can get cheap melta they can sacrifice. Whether its super-cost efficient or there are a bunch of them running around, Chaos cannot do this without sacrificing their midfield presence (I.e. CSM, Plague Marines, etc.).

[Penguinizer]

In my opinion, CSM's cheap expendable meltas are in the form of combimeltas on termicide squads. Just 3 man terminator squads with combimeltas and maybe one fist at most. They're a bit unreliable though.

[shadowwalker64]

As a FYI, the reason why there were 17 Havocs in one of the lists was because, due to my inexperience, I didn't know that 10 extra models for ablative wounds was overkill.

One thing I do have to ask: when is it appropriate to give squads a dedicated transport? I'm starting to see that not every squad needs one, and it looks like it's mostly Troops and melee squads that need them, but aside from that I don't know.

Also: the bit about "Chaos has no expendable melta" was a misunderstanding on my part. The line from the article in question (http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/08/armies-in-5th-chaos-space-marines-part_19.html) was this:

Troops which you plan on going anywhere outside of your deployment zone should preferably have a transport, especially if they are troops. That or they're outflanking/infiltrating. In fact, sometimes troops that are camping home objectives should have transports (eg orks) in order to add to their survivability. Sometimes it is also acceptable (or advisable, even) to buy transports for those troops who will not be using them, if not to gain more METAL BAWKES to hide your more valuable transports/vehicles behind.

Not sure about the melta presence on chaos armies though: I always find I can fit a large amount of melta on my chaos armies with room to spare...

[Hootman]

In fact, sometimes troops that are camping home objectives should have transports (eg orks) in order to add to their survivability.

Based on my own experience with my Boyz, a Trukk is the last thing you want parked on an objective. Trukk Boyz are high-speed shock troops, not backfielders--the fact that they are made of paper and prone to exploding at the slightest provocation doesn't help them protect anything. Sure, they make the 10 or so boyz inside immune to lasfire, but that's about it; being open-topped AV10, anything S4 or higher should wreck or explode it without trouble, potentially killing more boyz than the shots that broke the trukk in the first place.

I generally find objective camping distastful with orks anyways (and not just because of their fluff), as it seems like throwing anything less than the full weight of your army at the enemy will end only in failure. Again, just my experience.

I will agree that some armies do benefit from transport camping, such as IG, Tau, and some Razorspam armies, but orks aren't really one of them.

[Cheesegear]

One thing I do have to ask: when is it appropriate to give squads a dedicated transport? I'm starting to see that not every squad needs one, and it looks like it's mostly Troops and melee squads that need them, but aside from that I don't know.

Every single squad you own should be given a transport. However, you're very likely to go over-points, and so you take out some transports. Troops that don't move a whole lot (there should be at least one Troops unit in your list that you want to sit on an objective in Turn 1 and not move the entire game) don't need a Transport. Terminators don't need a transport - their transport is a Land Raider, bad and expensive - because they can Deep Strike if they need to.


Also: the bit about "Chaos has no expendable melta" was a misunderstanding on my part. The line from the article in question was this:

Ah. See, that site isn't for new kids, and I can see how you've confused what it's even about. No, Chaos has no 'suicide squads', no Turn 1 'bomb', as it were. As a Chaos player, you actually do have to think about your squads' survival after they blow up a tank. But, Chaos does have cheap Melta all over the place.

[Squark]

Last night was not a good night for my Space wolves. I was tabled on turn 3, and didn't manage to get one kill point :smallfrown:.

On the plus side, my meltaguns came in, and the blood angels player who so soundly trounced me was kind enough to give me two company standards I can use to make Wolf Standards.

[Ricky S]

Well I had a great night tonight. I had a flawless victory! I played my opponent in an ambush battle mission. I was using my blood angels and he was using his tau. I won the roll off to be the ambusher.

It was a pretty one sided affair from the beginning as I was in range of assault second turn and in range of meltas first turn. The game played out exactly as marines would act in fluff. They struck hard and fast and left none alive. My opponent was gracious enough to play to the end.

So has anyone else had a flawless victory or witnessed one before?

[HalfTangible]

Well I had a great night tonight. I had a flawless victory! I played my opponent in an ambush battle mission. I was using my blood angels and he was using his tau. I won the roll off to be the ambusher.

It was a pretty one sided affair from the beginning as I was in range of assault second turn and in range of meltas first turn. The game played out exactly as marines would act in fluff. They struck hard and fast and left none alive. My opponent was gracious enough to play to the end.

So has anyone else had a flawless victory or witnessed one before?

I've almost been the victim of one... I was playing blood angels against necrons, and I managed to take out a pair of destroyers and one of my scout combat squads was still alive when i conceded but otherwise everything I had was wiped out.

[Penguinizer]

I had one. It was in a 750 point doubles tournament. Me and my friend were playing strong lists since we knew the others would be (our local meta is fairly optimized). The thing is, there was one team that wasn't. Round 2 of the tournament, we went up against a father son team running Orks/Space Marines. Me and my friend were running Space Wolves/CSM with: Longfangs, Priest, 2 minimum troops from the wolves, 2 squads of plaguemarines in rhinos, a lashprince and a few obliterators. They had some large shootaboy squads, some terminators, some tactical squads, terminators and something else I forgot.

Suffice it say, it was a stomp. It made me feel like a horrible human being seeing the shoota squads just get ripped to shreds by plasma cannons and frag missiles. Me and my friend held all 3 objectives with no contest since just about everything was dead.

[Renegade Paladin]

Never a total flawless victory (I'm Guard; it doesn't happen), but came close playing against Tyranids once. The only thing I lost was a single Russ.

[Wraith]

Though not 'Flawless' by the tiniest of margins, for all intents and purposes I have been on the receiving end of one; my Pathfinder-heavy Eldar versus my friends' Imperial Guard gunline.

It was a complete massacre. It was a 2000pts game, and by the time that my Striking Scorpions Scout'd into play in the second turn, all I had left was them, a single Pathfinder and 1 Wraithlord with a single wound left.

In response, I think I had killed something like 8 Imperial Guardsmen with lasguns..... :smalleek:

Also, this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8786353&postcount=171)

[Erloas]

I've had a lot of very one sided wins. In Fantasy once at I think 1500 points I lost like 3 total models, all of which were normal rank and file models.

My eldar though almost always get rather crushing victories. Quite a few games where I'll win 3 to 1 in kill points, mostly loosing small jetbike units which are sacrificial units to begin with.
Last week against DE my eldar would have effectively tabled a Dark Eldar player by the end of turn 2, but his HQ (forget her name) saved 12 4+ Invul saves in a row. She didn't save the 12 she was forced to take the next turn. She had managed to kill a unit of scorpions in that turn she saved all those saves, most of which were in the shooting phase with str 6 (ie instant death) weapons.

[Tychris1]

Well, I've been tabled and tables on the same day. Wanting to have a bit of fun I decided to experiment with Biovores and Spore Mines. Now, the week before an IG player crushed me hard, so after we all sat around and discussed things he looked at me and said "So, you ready for a rematch?" I say sure, thousand points, I've been meaning to try out Biovores anyway. He says ok. I pull out my army and explain what everything is, upgrades and all (Especially since I was proxying spore mines and Biovores, since I want to test them out before buying them.). I ask him what he has and he just gives me a coy smile and says "You'll see." So we roll off and get pitched battle Annihlation, not bad. I roll first turn and set up, put Biovores inside of LoS blocking building with some Termagants, set the Swarmlord to the side and deep strike in my spore mines. He nods his head and proceeds to set two chimeras, a Valkyrie, and two Russ' on the table. :smallsigh:

"Really?"
"Come on, just play. You have a MC."

Valkyrie Lascannons. Nuff said.

When the Swarmlord got scraped off the table (Mostly by horrible cover saves) I proceeded to lift the building that the Biovores and Termagants were in and flip it upside down to scrape them back into my box. I proceeded to play against some Eldar with the same list, wiped his jet bikes, two squads of Dire Avengers, Warlock, and a few striking scorpions in the first turn. My (little) Swarmlord sweeps aside his two vehicles and the Biovores finish off the rest. So I guess Biovores (And their excrements) are decent, just not against fully meched out lists (Unless I bring Hive Guard and Zoanpoops)

[Squark]

Ummm... Wow. I at least got Mephiston down to one wound, and reduced one of the three assault squads (the one without a saguinary priest) to just the sergent.


Mind you, my dice apparently worship Tzeentch, and my Rune Priest and one of the long fangs units running off the board the second turn without getting to shoot a single thing did not help matters. To a couple of bolt pistols.

[Tome]

I ask him what he has and he just gives me a coy smile and says "You'll see."

I'm pretty sure that's illegal. If you ask to see someone's list before you deploy, they have to show it you, or at least tell you what's in their army.

In other news, GW did one of their no-as-clever-as-they-think teaser videos. Looks like 6th edition is either going to be released or announced on the 23rd of June.

[Cheesegear]

I'm pretty sure that's illegal. If you ask to see someone's list before you deploy, they have to show it you, or at least tell you what's in their army.

Page 92.
40K is not Fantasy - WHFB doesn't have this rule, I believe.

The big issue is whether it will be in 6th or not.


Looks like 6th edition is either going to be released or announced on the 23rd of June.

Looks like GW thinks their customer base is stupid since everyone with half a brain realises that they can't buy the 5th Ed. rulebook so something must be going on. That, or they're trying to sell more Skimmers before they release something else.