[3.5]Dragon Shaman - dips?

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

I played a Dragon Shaman (copper) in our EttRoG campaign a while back, and enjoyed the class. However, it's generally accepted that the class is a bit sub-par - most of it's abilities are passive, and the Dragonfire Adept does breath weapons better.

However, I was wondering how DS is for dipping, in a melee build? Here's what I see as convenient dip points:


Level 1: Losing 1 BAB; Good Fort & Will Saves, 3 Draconic Auras (Vigor is a favourite for OOC healing)
Level 3: Losing 1 BAB; as above, plus Skill Focus (meh) and Draconic Adaptation (continual Spider Climb isn't half bad; in an aquatic campaign, continual Water Breathing is also pretty good)
Level 4: Losing 1 BAB; as above, plus an all day long 2d6 breath weapon (for meta-breath feat goodness) and Draconic Resolve (immunity to sleep, paralysis, and the fear aura of dragons)


So, what do people think - do these represent good break points for dipping DS?

Cheers - T.

[JadePhoenix]

Level 4 is a pretty good point to drop out. Once you add stealth to the mix, Clinging Breath simply means whoever you breathe on is dead. "OK, enjoy 24 hours of acid damage!"

[Big Fau]

Except you can get the Breath Weapon from Dragonborn, Immunity to Sleep/Paralysis/Fear through magic items (not that these two effects show up regularly outside of PvP, and Fear is easy to counter at the mid-levels), Vigor aura from a (liberal interpretation of a) feat, at-will Spider Climb from a magic item or Invocation (a 1-level dip into Warlock for that), Water Breathing from a racial trait or a cheap item, and Skill Focus isn't exactly useful to begin with. The only thing you really get that isn't easily replicated are the saving throw increases.


And if you're going to make use of Metabreath feats enough to justify 2d6 damage of a single energy type, why aren't you playing Dragonborn or DFA? Or both? Even a Totemist is better for Breath Weapons, and they technically don't have one!

[Socratov]

I'd vote after level 3, since the breathweapon isn't spectacular unless you completely level DS (although you can get metabreathfeats with them, but then you should get your breath elsewhere and level that).

if you do take the breathwepon, take 6 lvls and gain touch of vitality, which is quite useful...

[Godskook]

1.The breath weapon is trash except in two cases - When you focus Dragon Shaman or when you abuse metabreaths in the same way as Power Word Pain. Given that neither of these should be considered PO in the case of a DS dip, level 4 is a bad breaking point.

2.Spider Climb is quite handy, and since you can put this dip early in the build, it can come online before magic starts doing it better(A max level spell for a short duration doesn't count as "doing it better").

3.@Big Fau, the interpretation isn't 'liberal'. The feat simply says Draconic Aura while referencing a page number. The referenced page refers to all Draconic Auras without any distinction. Calling it a liberal interpretation is like saying Arcane Disciple can't choose a core domain unless it was reprinted in CDiv.

[hex0]

I like the Dragon Shaman, even if it is a bit weak. Still, it is more versatile than a Fighter and has better skills and two good saves. I'd say the 4 dip is the best.

Also, Dragon Lord.

[Chronos]

JadePhoenix, how do you get 24 hours of acid damage?

[Treblain]

A one-level dip is also a handy way for a bard with Dragonfire Inspiration to change its damage type to something less resisted than fire.

[The Ogre]

Thanks to Dragon Magic, you can learn a least dragonfire adept invocation instead of gaining a new aura at level 5. Beguiling Influence, Magic Insight, and See the Unseen are all pretty good choices. Beguiling Influence, especially, is good if you want to partake in Intimidate shenanigans such as Imperious Command.

[Godskook]

JadePhoenix, how do you get 24 hours of acid damage?

By stacking clinging breath, the metabreath feat.

[Zaq]

Thanks to Dragon Magic, you can learn a least dragonfire adept invocation instead of gaining a new aura at level 5. Beguiling Influence, Magic Insight, and See the Unseen are all pretty good choices. Beguiling Influence, especially, is good if you want to partake in Intimidate shenanigans such as Imperious Command.

Ooooor you could just dip DFA.

[Tulya]

By stacking clinging breath, the metabreath feat.

Unless I'm missing something about how you'd use it...
Clinging breath deals repeatedly halved damage with each following round, approaching 0 as the number of rounds approaches infinity. The sum of the infinite series is the base damage x2.

[Rossebay]

Unless I'm missing something about how you'd use it...
Clinging breath deals repeatedly halved damage with each following round, approaching 0 as the number of rounds approaches infinity. The sum of the infinite series is the base damage x2.

Plus, they can just Full-Round + Reflex to put it out at any point during that damage.

[Godskook]

Unless I'm missing something about how you'd use it...
Clinging breath deals repeatedly halved damage with each following round, approaching 0 as the number of rounds approaches infinity. The sum of the infinite series is the base damage x2.

Not the interpretation I'd take, but its just as valid, I suppose.

[hex0]

Ooooor you could just dip DFA.

DFA doesn't work with metabreath feats though RAW.

[Zaq]

DFA doesn't work with metabreath feats though RAW.

Right. Never said it did. I was replying to the comment about getting an invocation at DS 5. Unless you're already totally sold on the meta-able breath weapon and thus have already taken DS 4, it makes more sense to get your invocation from 1 level of DFA than 5 levels of DS.