[3.5] Best spell for Magical Training+Precocious Apprentice?

[deuxhero]

This combo got mentioned in the super expert thread and I'm curious what can be done with it. You get some cantrips+a few castings and a single casting of a level 2 spell (oddly enough, RAW mentions no list, just "from a school not barred to you") at CL 1 (meaning 1 round per caster level spells are pretty much worthless). Requires human/strongheart halfling/flaws and 15 int/15 cha (and ACF I guess) which is a lot steeper than hidden talent, but while Hidden Talent only gets a 1st level power, this gets any 2nd level spell.


What are some good things to try with this (mainly the level 2 spell, though cantrips could have some use). It seems like it would have some good RP options (Wizard training with no wizard levels).

Alter Self is the obvious answer, but anything else?

[Zaq]

Well, first, let's look at our limitations. Different spells are good for different classes, of course, so we have to figure out what classes we can be before we can figure out what spells we want. We must be:

Willing to blow two feats, so we can't be anything too terribly feat-starved (a Rogue, for example, would not make the best choice here).
Willing to have pretty darn high INT or CHA, and since this happens at level 1 (i.e., long before any stat bumps or stat-boosting items), that can't be crippling to us.
Something other than a caster, since otherwise, we'd just cast the spells normally without resorting to these shenanigans.

That rules out quite a few classes right there, especially if you don't have especially generous point-buy. I could see this on a Paladin (they can afford the CHA, and I guess they can afford the feats, maybe?), maybe a Knight (the feats hurt a bit, but having magic means a ton to them), or something like that. Contrary to what I said earlier, i guess a Rogue could afford the stats if you went combat-light and skill-heavy, but again, the feats are a really big cost. Hmm.

I'm coming up blank. This is a pretty big opportunity cost, though.

[tanios]

So, what if the point of the feats wasn't simply use of the spells, but qualification for a prestige class.

Does a human cleric 3 who took magical training and precocious apprentice as his first two feats qualify for entry into mystic theurge? That would be pretty fantastic as you'd be a cleric of your character level and a wizard three levels lower; not too shabby.

[ddude987]

Factotum could use the 2nd level spell pretty well. Not sure exactly what spell though

[Fax Celestis]

Scimitar of sand gets my vote. For 1 minute, you get a 1d6 touch attack scimitar, usable with scimitar- and combat-specific feats. It also carries a Fort save vs dehydration (minor, probably won't work most of the time, but it's there).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you don't take levels in Wizard or Sorcerer, this spell is stuck at a caster level of one. For spells that would have the greatest impact with no level-dependent variables, my vote goes toward Ray of Stupidity (automatically disables any animal, many other creatures, especially Lesser Rod of Extended) or maybe Blindness/Deafness. Ray of Ice could also be useful, as the frozen-to-the-ground effect lasts until they break free, or maybe get Whirling Blade depending on the character.

[Irk]

I agree with fax -- I love that spell. Also maybe practiced spellcaster for +4 caster levels?

How would the apprentice feat interact with this? if your mentor took those two feats, you could get a 1st level spell too.

[Snowbluff]

Heroics gives a fighter feat for like 10 minutes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I agree with fax -- I love that spell. Also maybe practiced spellcaster for +4 caster levels?

Magical Training is a feat, Practiced Spellcaster only applies to classes. Magical Training only adds a Sorcerer/Wizard caster level if you have levels in either, so Practiced Spellcaster for either of those without any levels in either of those will not help.

[Irk]

Oh yeah, you're right, it just says that you cast spells AS a sorcerer wizard, but does not imply that your class is now a spellcasting class, assuming it was unable to cast spells before hand. I think that also answers my other question, with apprentice.

[bekeleven]

...Is Magical Training the best feat for Ultimate Magus ever?


you have an arcane spell failure chance if you wear armor and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast.

So a Sorc 1/Wiz3 with Magical Training (Sorc) and a bloodline can enter UM at level 5, and his Sorc caster level is "equivalent to his arcane caster level". I'm sure there's easier cheese with it, but either way it seems easier to use than practiced spellcaster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

...Is Magical Training the best feat for Ultimate Magus ever?

So a Sorc 1/Wiz3 with Magical Training (Sorc) and a bloodline can enter UM at level 5, and his Sorc caster level is "equivalent to his arcane caster level". I'm sure there's easier cheese with it, but either way it seems easier to use than practiced spellcaster.

You'll need the feat Arcane Preparation, so Sorcerer can count as both a prepared and spontaneous class and double-up advancement at 7/10 of UM's levels. Just a Wizard 5 with the Spontaneous Divination ACF can do the same thing with less effort.

[Emperor Tippy]

You'll need the feat Arcane Preparation, so Sorcerer can count as both a prepared and spontaneous class and double-up advancement at 7/10 of UM's levels.

That doesn't work. The reason that Spontaneous Divination works is that it is a class feature and thus the wizard is a spontaneous casting class.

Arcane Preparation doesn't make the Sorcerer a spontaneous casting class, which means that you couldn't double progress it even if it would qualify you for UM. But it doesn't. UM has as one of its prerequisites "able to prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells from a spellbook". Arcane Preparation doesn't give you a spellbook.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That doesn't work. The reason that Spontaneous Divination works is that it is a class feature and thus the wizard is a spontaneous casting class.

Arcane Preparation doesn't make the Sorcerer a spontaneous casting class, which means that you couldn't double progress it even if it would qualify you for UM. But it doesn't. UM has as one of its prerequisites "able to prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells from a spellbook". Arcane Preparation doesn't give you a spellbook.

Right, so even after spending two feats a Sorcerer can't do it at all then, but a Wizard can do it with a single alternate class feature that's often taken anyway due to its own usefulness.

[Emperor Tippy]

Right, so even after spending two feats a Sorcerer can't do it at all then, but a Wizard can do it with a single alternate class feature that's often taken anyway due to its own usefulness.

Don't you know? Wizards are always better. :smalltongue:

One of the benefits of the publisher being Wizards of the Coast and not Sorcerers of the Coast.

[Zonugal]

I really like Water to Acid as not only is it utility-minded (and thus convenient for a CL of 1) but it also opens up access to the Acidic Splatter reserve feat.