Tips on making a Lich

[Olfgar]

So, im setting up to run a campaign, and im planning on getting the party to meet an NPC (that turns out to be a Lich, which they wont know right away).

I was wondering if the playground could help direct me in ways to make the lich, in terms of any spells I should take, feats, what books said things are from, etc and any other relevant fluff.

Im planning on it being either Human or Elf.

Currently I can't decide whether or not I will have it start off as a Sorcerer or Wizard atm (although Im thinking Sorc, just because Cha is thier main casting stat, and the lich abailities (maybe not thier natural wepaon negative energy attack, I cant remember off the top of my head) and thier paralyzing touch, so yeah.

I'd greatly appreciate your help.

[Olfgar]

bump for boredom

[gbprime]

Wow, 20 minute bump. Hit hulu for a while, you'll feel better. :smallwink:

Couple things...

What do you want this NPC to DO? Does he provide a service for the PC's, is he a contact, will he be an adversary?

What level do you need him to be? Will he be confronting the PC's right away? (If not, no hurry to make a c-sheet for him!)

[Mystify]

Making a lich is pretty much like making any caster. Only, it can come back if the party kills it, and then it can hunt them with prep time.

[ClothedInVelvet]

An NPC lich can be a great villain, depending on your character levels. Because of his +4 LA, he might not be perfect against high level parties because their spellcasting will surpass his own.

But Mystify is right. The reason for bringing in a lich is so that it can come back and hunt them. And it's perfect for that.

[Kalmageddon]

An NPC lich can be a great villain, depending on your character levels. Because of his +4 LA, he might not be perfect against high level parties because their spellcasting will surpass his own.

Why? It's not like NPCs need to level up, they are of whatever level the DM feels is appropriate to present a challenge to the group.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Why? It's not like NPCs need to level up, they are of whatever level the DM feels is appropriate to present a challenge to the group.

Right, but if the PCs are level 18, they're going to have 9th level spells. Because a lich has a CR +2, he would be around level 16. Neither sorcerers or wizards have 9th level spells at level 18, and some of the lich's other abilities (DR, fear aura) shouldn't have much of an effect on a level 18 party (if they're not immune to fear and have magic weapons by this point, they're not playing right.

I'm not saying it's not possible to make it into a good villain. I'm just saying it's something to consider when making him, because as the party gets to higher levels, the lich is going to seem less scary unless you do something like adjust his CR to compensate.

[Mystify]

Right, but if the PCs are level 18, they're going to have 9th level spells. Because a lich has a CR +2, he would be around level 16. Neither sorcerers or wizards have 9th level spells at level 18, and some of the lich's other abilities (DR, fear aura) shouldn't have much of an effect on a level 18 party (if they're not immune to fear and have magic weapons by this point, they're not playing right.

I'm not saying it's not possible to make it into a good villain. I'm just saying it's something to consider when making him, because as the party gets to higher levels, the lich is going to seem less scary unless you do something like adjust his CR to compensate.
Considering its supposed to be a major villian, the lich should have a 3 or more CR boost ahead of the party, even with a +2 Cr for being a lich he should be the more powerful caster. The DR and D12 HD means its relatively hardy for a caster. He can put up whatever defenses other casters have on top of that. Unholy toughess also measn you can add their char to hp, so now they can compete with barbarians for sheer hp. dispelling or disjunction any bludgeoning weapons the party has can help insure the DR means something. Between being and Su power, the liches boosted charisma, and ability focus, the DC on the paralyzing touch can be quite potent, if he doesn't want to use a spell.
But they are really just spellcasters with much higher raw durability.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Its also inportant to know is it the PF lich or the 3e lich?

[Venger]

Neither sorcerers or wizards have 9th level spells at level 18

yes they do, wizards get 9ths at level 17, sorcerers at level 18

[Mystify]

Its also inportant to know is it the PF lich or the 3e lich?

The biggest difference between the two that I see is that he pathfinder lich gets char to health automatically, and has a d8 instead of a d12 HD.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Also the HD are not replaced. Only RACAIL HD is replaced.

Otherwise the HD remains the same.

I would have the battle be on a tower and have the lich destroy the tower fom the outside and summon a space crab a half fiendish shipwreck crab.

And have it destroy the tower then have the PCs climb onto it.

[Olfgar]

I thinking i'll just keep it as the normal 3.5 lich from the MM unless you can give me something better than that?

Im thinking I will introduce him into the story when they get around lvl 8-12, but Im going to keep it from them that it is a lich right off the bat through the use of diguise spells, etc. Im planning on getting them to do a quest or two for him while under the impression he isnt a lich.

Im planning on making a series of NPC's that are designed to, uh whats the wording im looking for, "against" what atleast one of my PC's believe in? As in I have a PC whos rolling a druid, and you know, druids love nature and the natural order and a Lich screams in the face of that. And so they COULD (if they do all the right thigns) get him as an ally, or perhaps even a party member, or they could get him as a reccuring villain if they decide to not hurt the druids feelings by welcoming a lich into thier ranks.

[Namfuak]

Usually, liches have minions of some sort to make up for their relative fragility (they may have high health, but that will hardly matter when put up against 4 PCs if the PCs have action advantage the whole fight). Is the Lich just going to have undead because of DM fiat, or would you rather that the undead follow him due to class features? Or are his minions not undead at all?

Another important question is when the PCs will fight him. As others have mentioned, spellcasters at level 18 are very different from spellcasters at level 10. (posted this before I saw your last post)

If he's going to be one of their party members, he probably can't have undead due to class features or he'll have to come out and say he's a lich, so I guess that idea is out the window.

[Olfgar]

The Lich will have some Undead minions, just cause, you know it fits. but He will have some none undead helper monkies to. It'll be a little while before they will have to even interact with him, but Id like to have him prepared, and start building his quest lines etc.

Like I said, its only a possibility of him being a party member, and that wouldnt happen right off that bet, there gonan be doing some work for him before I will get them in a position to start snooping around about him.

And the guy playing the druid is the more...stubborn of the group and thats how he plays his character to so hey may "coerce the party" into confronting and fighting him. And even then I never said He would be a loyal companion, maybe he would only assist them to get something out of it that hes kept secret? you never know.

Also, any opinions on what kind of spells I should get him to take?

[Olfgar]

So, nothing new?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also the HD are not replaced. Only RACAIL HD is replaced.

I believe you are mistaken, sir. Considering it says, "Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s," and its advancement is "By character class." Additionally, the example Lich in the Monster Manual uses a Human Wizard 11 as the base creature, and it gets 11d12 HD.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Strait out-a the Rulebook:

Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial Hit Dice to d8s. All Hit Dice derived from class levels remain unchanged. As undead, liches use their Charisma modifiers to determine bonus hit points (instead of Constitution).

In addition the Wizard only has 10D6 dice.

[Olfgar]

Actually im looking at the Monster manual lich right now and hes right.

"Hit Dice: 11d12+3 (74hp)"

and

"Increase all current and future hit dice to d12's" in the "creating a lich" section

[Madara]

Dry Lich. Bam, enough said :smallcool:

But it a minute or two I'll start showering you will real advice.

[Olfgar]

Dry Lich? what sorcery is this you speak of?

[DemonRoach]

Dry Lich? what sorcery is this you speak of?

Its a Sandstorm variant I believe...

[Olfgar]

Ah i see...and in response to your signature, a Prismatic wall infront of said anti magic field stopped him.

[Tvtyrant]

My suggestion if you want it to be exactly CR appropriate but still a challenge is to make it a something/Ur-Priest. This will net you 9ths ludicrously early, and you can add some snazzy cherry-picked levels to it.

[Madara]

Dry lich is a Template similar to the Lich, but Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger.

It can be achieved after 10 levels of Walker in the Waster, or just normally applied because you're the GM. It even comes with 6 Phyc..caly...pha.. Soul-Hidey Places :mitd:

Tomfoolery: LM= the book of bad Latin. Evolved Undead Template is "I've been around so long, I'm hogging the Negative energy."

Archevist as the base class my dear sir, or make it an UrPriest... Edit:Ninja'd

I suggest making it a debuffer. It will make your players weep, without actually killing them(Unless you want to). But just imagine, Mr.FIgher's Strength drops to 2. He can't even lift his sword. That's how you strike fear into players. Mrs. Wizard, her Int dropped to 14, she can't cast spells above level 4.

When they start to lose their power, they will feel helpless. They should be able to defeat him, but when he makes a return....:xykon:

[blazingshadow]

dry lich gives you charisma to HD just like a living being would use constitution to HD. it also as a free action can create a heat wave that eventually will turn everything near you into a desert

[onemorelurker]

As others have said, liches get shafted by their level adjustment, spellcasting-wise. If you want the lich to be a challenge to the party, make sure that its spellcasting is at least at the level of the party's spellcasters, if not one higher. Some of its abilities (touch attack, Paralyzing Touch and Fear Aura, plus its DR if the party knows what weapons to use) are basically useless, and the ability to re-form from its phylactery isn't any more special than an NPC who has the money and minions to get res'd.

So for LA +4, you're getting some minor ability bonuses; skill bonuses which, while nice, a lich should be able to replicate with magic; the undead type; extra natural armor; and a few immunities. Not really worth it for a spellcaster. Assume that the lich has no LA, and you should be able to come up with an appropriately challenging encounter.

[Calanon]

Step one. Get caster level 11
Step two. take Craft wondrous items as one of those feats
Step three. Spend assbackwards amount of XP and gold to become a Lich
Step four. Melt anyone that tries to get your phylactery

Congrats you are now a Lich, Women will hate you, Men will want to kill you, who knows? Animals might actually fear you!

[NinjaStylerobot]

Actually im looking at the Monster manual lich right now and hes right.

"Hit Dice: 11d12+3 (74hp)"

and

"Increase all current and future hit dice to d12's" in the "creating a lich" section

Oh sorry. Was looking through the bestiary.