[PF] Master Chymist advice [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Laniius

2012-02-11, 01:49 AM

So I was planning on building a master chymist, with 1 level of rogue with the rake archetype. My DM has houseruled that Master Chymist advances my alchemist's sneak attack damage.

Anyway, then I found the Scout archetype. The one that lets you get sneak attack on a charge. I have pounce (or will have when I mutate; via the Beastmorph archetype of alchemist).

What I was wondering is I already have dazzling display and shatter defenses, and I will have the rake ability to make people shaken with sneak attack.

But if I took rogue to level 4 after adding on the scout archetype, I would get sneak attack on a charge.

But if I do that I would lose 7 levels of alchemist casting. (3 from master chymist and 4 from the rogue levels). This means I would only get up to 5th level extracts. Would it be worth it to get pretty much guaranteed sneak attack?

Or should I not bother with the Scout archetype and only lose 3 levels of alchemist and have slightly less chance of getting sneak attack?

Or should I not bother with rogue at all and rely on dazzling display to make enemies shaken?

I've never played an alchemist before. The Master Chymist is non-negotiable as it fits my roleplay idea perfectly.

Thank you.

Curious

2012-02-11, 02:11 AM

Master Chymist increases extracts per day on most of it's levels, so taking Alchemist 13/Rogue 4/Master Chymist 3 would get you 15th level Alchemist extracts.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-11, 10:47 AM

Just a note:

Alchemist is a very poor class to multi-class with (except for master chemist)

If you want sneak attack dies use the vivisectionist-It replaces the bomb mechanik with sneak attack dies and also gives some extra abilities and spells. In replacement for NOTHING. Its one of the best archetypes to choose. It also stacks with beastmourph archetype.

Cieyrin

2012-02-11, 12:38 PM

Alchemist is a very poor class to multi-class with (except for master chemist)

How so? It's a very dippable class to be certain, to get Sneak Attack and a mutation if you do 2 levels, most commonly to pick up a Vestigial Arm for shenanigans.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-11, 12:46 PM

The idea of dipping is abhorrent to me. For a guy that likes to roleplay becoming a class "suddenly" for 3 levels for a bunch of class abilities makes me mad.

Unless your playing for combat only.

Cieyrin

2012-02-11, 12:57 PM

Just because of your personal dislike of dipping doesn't mean you can't multiclass it and make it work. I could see it mix with Rogue, Vivisectionist or not, or perhaps Archaeologist Bard. Alternatively, Ragechemist could mix well with many flavors of Barbarian.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-11, 01:14 PM

Its just that you loose out on TONS of class abilities of the alchemist.

Discovery levels, spell, bombs (Or sneak attack die if you want) all depend on the alchemist class.

Cieyrin

2012-02-11, 01:32 PM

You can pick up discoveries as feats and you could potentially multiclass Rogue and Alchemist with Arcane Trickster, picking up Mage Hand via Minor Magic talent and advance both sneak attack and extracts. As I said, Rogue/Vivisectionist keeps Sneak Attack going as well.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-11, 01:41 PM

Cieyrin

2012-02-11, 02:19 PM

Huh. Thats possible. But then the rouge thing becomes more of a hinderance. Specialy since Arcane trikster offers things to the alchemist that are useless to him.

Gee sneak attacking with spells? Thats awesome. Oh wait I dont have any attack spells.

Y'mean like Stone Fist, Elemental Touch, Fire Breath, Draconic Reservoir, Elemental Aura, Detonate or Dragon's Breath, all of which are in the APG, and probably more in UM and UC? They don't have a lot of attack spells but they do have them.

They can still also use Tricky Spells, as many infusions have somatic components, so there aren't any features that they miss out on by going Arcane Trickster.

In addition discovery level is also inportant. Most discoveries arent that amazing at lower levels.

Most discoveries (besides Grand Discoveries) just say level, not alchemist level, so you could pick them up later on via Extra Discovery or coming back to Alchemist at a later point.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-11, 02:30 PM

Ah, then its errata then. Its alchemist level. =P

Oh and I would rather use a magic weapon then most stone fist/ elemental fist thing type things. They DONT have much spells especially at higher levels that benefit from this.

Also an alchemist DRINKS his extracts. No need for tricky spells. Its kinda vague though. But its REALY stupid otherwise.

He needs to make gestures/ singing a song whilst drinking something?

Cieyrin

2012-02-11, 02:41 PM

Ah, then its errata then. Its alchemist level. =P

Oh and I would rather use a magic weapon then most stone fist/ elemental fist thing type things. They DONT have much spells especially at higher levels that benefit from this.

Dragon's Breath and Detonate are both 4th level, so not exactly low. Also Fire Shield and a good number of other spells means whenever things hit you, you Sneak Attack them for free back. Getting them treated as flat-footed while they stab you may be a bit more difficult but doable. (Shatter Defenses! :smallbiggrin:)

Also an alchemist DRINKS his extracts. No need for tricky spells. Its kinda vague though. But its REALY stupid otherwise.

He needs to make gestures/ singing a song whilst drinking something?

I assume the somatic is the action of them drinking, so Sneaky Spells means the alchemist thinks it and the extract is generated in their bodies. Alchemists don't have a clause against losing the Somatic component like Bards have against losing the Verbal component. They also get it for free, at no increase in spell level, so I don't see where that's an issue for them to have.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-11, 02:48 PM

Cieyrin

2012-02-11, 07:48 PM

Maybe he needs to slurp it REALY loudly. :smallwink:

Generally I don't see a difference though. Its only necessary for times when your tied up. Because otherwise you don't realy make a sound otherwise.

I just don't see a reason for loosing out on a bunch of great effects (like beastmoarph) in return for tricky spells.

Or if you don't want other people to know you just cut loose a spell, since a lack of components makes that Spellcraft check really difficult.

But really, you don't have to multiclass by any means to be effective and if it's not your cup of tea, then don't worry about it. All I'm saying is that it can work and work decently. Yes, you sacrifice some features but that's what happens when you multiclass, so you just have to see whether you can get something worthwhile for your sacrifice of equal or greater value.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-11, 07:50 PM

You could have your spells in a flask. That way your taking a swig. and tricking your enemies.

I LIKE multi-classing. Just not dipping.

But eh, I do see your point.

Curious

2012-02-11, 07:55 PM

I LIKE multi-classing. Just not dipping.

But eh, I do see your point.

There isn't much difference, since all multiclassing is about grabbing abilities you want for the least cost.

grarrrg

2012-02-11, 08:47 PM

Anyway, then I found the Scout archetype. The one that lets you get sneak attack on a charge. I have pounce (or will have when I mutate; via the Beastmorph archetype of alchemist).

...But if I took rogue to level 4 after adding on the scout archetype, I would get sneak attack on a charge.

But if I do that I would lose 7 levels of alchemist casting. (3 from master chymist and 4 from the rogue levels). This means I would only get up to 5th level extracts. Would it be worth it to get pretty much guaranteed sneak attack?

Or should I not bother with the Scout archetype and only lose 3 levels of alchemist and have slightly less chance of getting sneak attack?

Or should I not bother with rogue at all and rely on dazzling display to make enemies shaken?

Where to start....

First, your math is a little off.
In order to get Pounce from the Beastmorph archetype you need 10 levels of Alchemist (Master Chymist doesn't count). Then with 4 levels of Rogue, that would only leave you 6 for Master Chymist, so you'd only lose 6 levels (still 5th level Extracts though).
10th level as Vivisectionist would also let you get the Crippling Strike Rogue Talent (2 Str damage on Sneak).

Guaranteed Sneak Attack can be quite useful at times, but you need room/positioning to make a Charge.

I would skip Dazzling Display, because it takes a Full Round action to use, you're better off just hitting something.

If you still want to Intimidate people, pick up Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final) to add Cha AND Str to your checks (it can be picked up with a Rogue Talent if you prefer).

To Ninjastylerobot:
Ignore the 2nd link in my sig... it doesn't exist....

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-12, 01:52 AM

Curious

2012-02-12, 02:03 AM

There IS a difference.

My character is a mage that dabbles in the divine.

My character is a Soldier that later became more in-tune with nature.

Thats multiclassing.

My character picks something that makes no sense for purposes of class abilities. Usualy ALLOT of things that don't make sense.

Thats what I call dipping.

What s the definition of 'makes sense?' Fluff is mutable, as are character concepts. What seems unreasonable for one character may make perfect sense for another. Furthermore, I almost never see people 'dipping' just to grab more abilities and be the kewlest and most powerful ever. Usually, someone has a character concept they want to fulfill, and they multiclass and dip to acquire the abilities necessary to fulfill that concept.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-12, 02:33 AM

The "Nothing ever makes sense so this doesn't either" is a lazy excuse.

Point is that dipping involves your character learning things that simply don't make sense in exchange for metagame power.

If it makes sense and the fluff comes first then its not realy dipping.

I don't like metagaming.

Because isn't this fantasy where we have fluff, but we just want mechanical rules for it?

Curious

2012-02-12, 02:52 AM

The "Nothing ever makes sense so this doesn't either" is a lazy excuse.

Nothing of the sort was ever stated.

Point is that dipping involves your character learning things that simply don't make sense in exchange for metagame power.

If it makes sense and the fluff comes first then its not realy dipping.

Taking one to three or so levels in a class is the accepted classification of dipping. You can't just reassign the word to mean 'munchkin'. And I re-iterate; very few dips, even those made entirely to increase the relative power of your character, cannot be justified.

I don't like metagaming.

That is unfortunate, because metagaming is essential to playing the game at all. You can't even plan out a character without metagaming.

Because isn't this fantasy where we have fluff, but we just want mechanical rules for it?

It's the other way around; the company gives us rules, and we attach fluff to it as we like.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-12, 03:30 AM

Curious

2012-02-12, 03:37 AM

I want to play a wizard. The rules provide me with a framework on how to play one and the abilities they have.

I dont want to play a class with full BAB and a high fortitude save and with bonus feats that happens to be a fighter.

So the important thing to you is that the class have a name attached to it? That seems rather limiting. Why can't I use the Barbarian Warblade class and call it a 'Fighter?' It would certainly be how the character identified himself, and how I would describe him.

Wings of Peace

2012-02-12, 03:58 AM

Point is that dipping involves your character learning things that simply don't make sense in exchange for metagame power.

The problem with your logic is that it's all dependant on the chacter.

Real life example: "That Aikido guy just did a sweet throw. Maybe I'll skip my Krav Maga class for a couple weeks so he can teach me it."

Fantasy Example: "That shady fellow just stabbed that guy in the face before he could react, that'd sure be helpful since I seem to get into a lot of fights as an adventurer, maybe I'll take some time to learn it from him."

The point is, dipping isn't hard to justify. I don't see how it's an indication of poor roleplay if a character decides to spend a small amount of time just to pick up one useful skill. Usually dipping is used for both immediate -and- long term optimization so if anything I would argue that it shows the character has a broader understanding of their own art because they can see aspects of it reflected in others arts and so use those arts to improve.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-12, 04:28 AM

A wizard 1 alchemist 1, bard 3, rouge 3, celestial, fiendish vampire zombie construct ninja, psion can make sense.

But it just comes off stupid (Or awesome).

I just do things in reverse. I will intentionally penalize myself if it makes sense character wise. If im ugly I get a penalty to diplomacy. If I turn into something I cannot communicate. ect.

My character first has to have a mage teacher THEN he can multi-class then the other way around.

Need_A_Life

2012-02-12, 05:01 AM

RE: Master Chymist: I'd probably stay with Alchemist, rather than go Scout just for utility. You're already losing a lot of casting and "Mr. Hyde" wouldn't want to run out of nice buffs, utility and battle-field control abilities, now would he? :smalltongue:

Dipping.
I've played a Paladin-in-training at level... 9, I think? It was an Inquisitor [PF]/Monk, who really looked up to the Paladin he was travelling with. It was fairly suboptimal, but there was a surprising amount of synergy.
I've also played a Paladin turned Sorcerer, who very much enjoyed Charisma to saves, Lay on Hands and Smite, thank-you-very-much. Some people might call that munchkin... I simply enjoyed "smiting" people with disintegrate, while being sure they couldn't return the favour.

Psyren

2012-02-12, 09:45 AM

Cieyrin

2012-02-12, 10:35 AM

I think it would be really cool if Master Chymist had the option of progressing bombs as Jekyll and Sneak Attack as Hyde, instead of one or the other. That would really lend mechanical weight to the two personalities-in-one-body fluff.

That's just a side effect that Vivisectionist didn't exist when Master Chymist was published. In any case, Hyde was more of a brute than a cunning sneak, at least from what I remember of reading the original text, so Master Chymist does cover that front fairly well.

As for the ensuing dipping discussion, as has been pointed out a couple times now, dipping can be easily explained by either cross-training to learn a new trick or coming from the perspective that your character isn't the sum of their classes. Fredrick the Unbreakable isn't a Fighter 4/Barbarian 2, he's a classically trained warrior who learned to harness his inner beast to enhance his prowess and staying power. Persephone isn't a Rogue 3/Sorcerer 6, she's a confidence woman and eldritch scoundrel who draws on her fey ancestry to enhance her silver tongue and unseen shiv. Baldric the Bloodyhanded isn't a Monk 2/Paladin 5/Ranger 4, he's a sacred ascetic trained in hunting the enemies of the faith through the wilderness and smiting them with his carefully cultivated martial tradition passed down through the ages to oppose the advent of demonkind to bring about the next age of darkness.

Also, there is such a thing as excessive dipping and I don't think anyone finds it very appealing. Most such proposed builds tend to remain TO than ever see the light of day at the game table, with a couple exceptions. Hood may be a powerful build but I'd never play it. We're just talking about picking up a couple tricks from other classes, while typically remaining to a core principle class.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-12, 10:49 AM

It would get abused. I would simply make two different characters outright.

Cieyrin

2012-02-12, 12:00 PM

It would get abused. I would simply make two different characters outright.

Just because it can be abused doesn't mean it does. Also, given most games don't allow you to play multiple characters (outside of Druids/Summoners/Cohorts/Improved Familiars), I think dipping is the lesser of two evils. Seems a little extreme to need to make a new character just because I want to play Paladin 2/Sorcerer 8/Dragon Disciple 10.