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NeoSeraphi
2012-02-11, 01:59 AM
Author's Note: This class is unfair. I acknowledge that it is unfair. However, if you really want a melee class that can stand up to a caster, you can't play by any sort of rules that WotC has put out. So with that in mind, please critique carefully, and try to assist me in balancing this in a way that will still keep the mage slayer ahead of the caster.


The Mage Slayer


Prerequisites: In order to become a mage slayer, you must meet the following prerequisites:

Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Spellcraft 6 ranks
Special: Must not be able to cast spells or use spell-like abilities. The Mage Slayer's Will class feature is an exception to this restriction.

HD: d10
Class Skills: A mage slayer's class skills are Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot.
Skill Points: 4+Int per level

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Time Stands Still, Action Without Consequence

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Supreme Resistance, Mundane Aegis

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Sonic Blade

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Mage Stalker

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Mage Slayer's Clarity

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|Mage Slayer's Determination

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|Mage Slayer's Will

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|Tenacity of the Slayer

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|Cancel

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|Aura of Mundane Order
[/table]

Class Features: The following are the class features for the mage slayer:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The mage slayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as light, medium, and heavy armor, and all shields, including tower shields.

Time Stands Still (Ex): A mage slayer is able to alter the very flow of time, to ensure no annoying interruptions. No creature can interrupt the mage slayer's turn with an immediate action. This ability may be suppressed or resumed as a free action.

Action Without Consequence (Ex): A mage slayer can attack a mage freely, without worrying about unnecessary responses. A mage slayer's actions and the results of those actions (both direct and indirect) can never trigger a contingent effect. Examples would be "I am targeted by a melee attack" or "I take damage". If a mage slayer attacked and dealt damage to a mage who had a contingent spell effect in place with that trigger, it would not activate.

Supreme Resistance (Ex): A mage slayer's ability to shrug off magic is almost golem-like. Starting at level 2, the mage slayer receives a bonus to all his saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities equal to his character level, and any time he succeeds a saving throw against a spell or spell-like ability with a Half or Partial effect, he instead takes no effect.

Mundane Aegis (Ex): A mage slayer is a shield against the world, he protects them all from magic. And so he himself can absorb the magic and obliterate it. Beginning at 2nd level, a mage slayer gains spell resistance equal to 30+his character level. Any time a spellcaster fails to penetrate the mage slayer's spell resistance, the entire spell fails (for example, if the mage slayer and his allies were clustered together and targeted with a fireball effect, and the wizard failed to penetrate the mage slayer's spell resistance, the fireball effect would fail and none of his allies would be affected either). The mage slayer may suppress or resume his spell resistance as a free action or as an immediate action.

Sonic Blade (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a mage slayer is able to attack all creatures in a 120' line with his sword. This attack is treated as a melee attack, except there is no attack roll. All creatures in the 120' line are allowed a Reflex saving throw (DC 10+1/2 the mage slayer's character level+his Strength modifier) for half damage. The damage of the attack is equal to the mage slayer's normal damage for the weapon he is wielding, rolled once and applied to each creature. This ability can be used as either a standard action attack or a full-round attack. The mage slayer can use this ability at will. Despite the name, this is not a [sonic] effect. The attack deals damage of the same type as the weapon, and is subject to damage reduction and regeneration, as normal.

Mage Stalker (Su): Starting at 4th level, a mage slayer is able to teleport at will. As a move action, the mage slayer may teleport up to 100 ft, +10 ft per character level.

Mage Slayer's Clarity (Ex): A mage slayer's eyes are not easily fooled. Beginning at 5th level, the mage slayer continuously ignores illusions and false shapes, and other similar effects. He enjoys the benefits of a continuous extraordinary true seeing effect. He may suppress or resume this ability as a free action or an immediate action.

Mage Slayer's Determination (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a mage slayer is permanently affected by a continuous extraordinary mindblank effect. This ability may be suppressed or resumed as a free action or an immediate action.

Mage Slayer's Will (Sp): Starting at 7th level, a mage slayer is able to cast disjunction, as the spell, as a spell-like ability at will, with a caster level equal to his character level. A creature that is affected by the mage slayer's disjunction ability is unable to cast a spell, use a spell-like ability, activate a magic item, or resume a supernatural effect during its next round. This ability has no effect on the mage slayer's Aura of Mundane Order, and cannot dispel or suppress it.

Tenacity of the Slayer (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a mage slayer gains regeneration 10. All types of weapon damage deal lethal damage to the mage slayer (but not weaponlike spells).

Cancel (Ex): Starting at 9th level, a mage slayer may automatically counterspell a spell that the mage slayer successfully identifies as it is being cast with the Spellcraft skill (or a ring of spell battle). The mage slayer may use this ability as an immediate action, once per day per class level.

Aura of Mundane Order (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, a mage slayer projects an antimagic field, as the spell, with a radius of 1 mile/character level. The mage slayer may suppress or resume this ability as a free action or an immediate action. The mage slayer and his equipment are not affected by his Aura of Mundane Order. This is an extraordinary ability.

TuggyNE
2012-02-11, 02:22 AM
This is, indeed, quite brutal. I'm not really qualified to judge most of this, but I would like to mention the skills -- in particular, it doesn't have Knowledge: Psionics, and doesn't allow entry with Psicraft. I'd suggest either adding a variant ("Psionslayer"?) or simply adding the skill to the list and as an alternative to Spellcraft, respectively.

Amechra
2012-02-11, 02:24 AM
This class... does not succeed at mage-slaying.

If the character enters an anti-magic field, it shuts down all of their class abilities but two of them. Conversely, spellcasters can, if they really feel like it, cast in an antimagic field.

The Regeneration they get can easily be bypassed. By a cantrip, if one interpretation is used; besides, the best blasting spell ever happens to be Telekinesis, and those greatswords heading for your face are very, very real, thank you very much.

Assay Spell Resistance lowers their Spell Resistance, just in time for them to be hit by a Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos/Blasphemy effect.

You need to be within Close range for your Disjunction to work; a spellcaster could snipe you from anywhere on the plane (Nightmare or Dream Telling, depending on whether or not he wants to hurt you or if he just wants to **** with you.)

I would like you to ask yourself... what would I need to kill the Twice Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar)?

Unless you only want to go against semi-optimized casters; then this is fine.

Eurus
2012-02-11, 02:31 AM
Initiate of Mystra is so over-the-top that it's hard to use it as a target, I think. Fighting semi-optimized casters while remaining somewhat sane is probably a better goal.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-11, 02:33 AM
I increased the Spell Resistance to 30+Character level to make up for assay spell resistance, and also increased the radius of Aura of Mundane Order to 1 mile/character level. Any other suggestions?

Amechra
2012-02-11, 02:36 AM
Yeah, I kinda realized halfway through that post that I was bringing borderline-TO work into the discussion.

Still, my good man Seraphi, look up Realms of Chaos' Abolisher; it actually is capable of taking on the build that I linked without being too crazy by itself; I suggest stealing ideas.

Demidos
2012-02-11, 02:58 AM
I would suggest the disjunction not targetting items. Otherwise any loot you would gain would always be destroyed unless you want to face a fully-buffed caster. Also, it sucks having your items destroyed. :smallannoyed: :smallwink:

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-11, 03:01 AM
I would suggest the disjunction not targetting items. Otherwise any loot you would gain would always be destroyed unless you want to face a fully-buffed caster. Also, it sucks having your items destroyed. :smallannoyed: :smallwink:

A noticeable (but not major) part of a caster's power comes from items. A true mage slayer, fluff-wise, wouldn't care about ruining some potentially useful magic items. Especially when he's got his own.

It's a lot closer to a fair fight if the caster has no magic items than it is if he does.

Amechra
2012-02-11, 03:45 AM
You want to know something funny?

Your Disjunction would affect the Antimagic Field effect that the capstone generates, thus protecting your foe's items.

I would suggest putting in a note that your Disjunctions ignore the capstone field.

katarl
2012-02-11, 06:40 AM
So, to defeat OP characters, you must first become OP?

This is DND, not a cheese arms race.

Glimbur
2012-02-11, 09:06 AM
What does this class do against non-magical monsters? For example, it doesn't really have anything that will let it stand up to a dragon, a kraken, a balor... it has lots of "no magic lol" abilities but not every enemy is a mage. Sonic Blade and the teleport-y one are kind of nice, but it's a very niche class.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-11, 10:51 AM
What does this class do against non-magical monsters? For example, it doesn't really have anything that will let it stand up to a dragon, a kraken, a balor... it has lots of "no magic lol" abilities but not every enemy is a mage. Sonic Blade and the teleport-y one are kind of nice, but it's a very niche class.

So are a lot of prestige classes. Like the elf hunter prestige class that's all about killing orcs, or the blade bravo prestige class that involves fighting creatures larger than you, or the dragon slayer of Bahamut/Tiamat prestige classes.


snip

Sure. Fixed.


So, to defeat OP characters, you must first become OP?

This is DND, not a cheese arms race.

Okay. So how do you suggest a mage slayer class should be built?

Amechra
2012-02-11, 11:42 AM
It would have one level, and only one class feature.

That class feature would be:

Every Caster is Now a Sad Remnant of their Former Self (Ex)Every spellcaster in the history of forever is a player character in a game run by one of KevinVideo's DMs. There is no save, no SR, and no way to weasel out of this at all. Ever.

Look of KevinVideo on Google, and see if you can find any of his DM horror stories.

Then you'll understand.

Elfstone
2012-02-11, 12:52 PM
What would the HD, saves, BAB, and skill points be? We need specifications!

All joking aside, I would make almost all his abilities Ex so when AMF pops up, he doesn't get boned too. Thats an essential.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-11, 01:01 PM
Okay, all the abilities save Mage Stalker and Mage-Slayer's Will are now extraordinary. (Because teleporting is supernatural and an SLA is just always going to be an SLA)

Yitzi
2012-02-11, 07:27 PM
When you say you're looking for a melee class that can stand up to a caster, how attached are you to the idea of having almost no casting ability (as opposed to a melee class with a few spells that can't be used directly to actually win), and how attached are you to the idea of not having to use magic items to do his job?

Also, I would highly advise against making him a purely melee class. He should have at least enough ranged ability (likely from a bow) to ready to disrupt. (He should also, of course, get the ability to bypass standard caster anti-archer defenses.) Something to allow him to disrupt without having to ready every round would be even better.

Tanuki Tales
2012-02-11, 08:45 PM
This far in and no one made note of the Uncle quote for the Title? D:

"One more thing..."

Amechra
2012-02-11, 09:00 PM
This far in and no one made note of the Uncle quote for the Title? D:

"One more thing..."

GAH, you ruined the joke.

I actually thought this was going to be an Uncle-based PrC when I first saw it, but since it is a completely accurate assessment of how D&D works...

TravelLog
2012-02-11, 09:51 PM
"We must do reeea-search!"

And Amechra, I had originally thought exactly the same thing. I was expecting puffer-fish...*sadness*

Seerow
2012-02-11, 09:54 PM
30+character level is pretty ridiculously high SR. If you want it to just be unbeatable SR, give him immunity as a golem and leave it at that.



Honestly I came into this topic hoping for a counterspelling focused character, and an image of Uncle. So even if the class was perfect I leave disappointed :(

Tanuki Tales
2012-02-11, 09:59 PM
Honestly I came into this topic hoping for a counterspelling focused character, and an image of Uncle. So even if the class was perfect I leave disappointed :(

I'm so sorry Neo, 'cause I generally love your stuff to pieces...but I have to agree.

Any way you could change the title and make a class like that? You're totally awesome and churn out great homebrew like a machine and I know you can do eet! :smallbiggrin:

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-11, 11:09 PM
Actually, this class did start out as a counterspell-focused class, but I saw a mundane versus melee thread in the 3.5 forum and kind of switched concepts...

Ah well. I'll change the title and do an Nu-mo-gwai-gwai-faiti-xao class after I get back on the 17th.

Lord_Gareth
2012-02-11, 11:59 PM
You know, I actually did something that (attempts) to fill a similar niche in the GitP PrC contest - the Voidblade Eliminator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7594564&postcount=8). You might be able to plunder it for some ideas, though I'm not certain how successful they are at attacking casters either (though now that I'm thinking of it, they could use Armor of Absence to be 'not there' for various contingenciesand the like....).

Seerow
2012-02-12, 12:15 AM
On the subject of that huge SR again: Maybe you could make it come at first level, and be 24+(2*class level), with a second ability somewhere along the line making it full immunity?

I just think that 30+character level for a 2 level dip is really strong.



Anyway, other defenses that may prove useful to a mage slayer: Immunity to energy drain, ability drain, and death effects (basically mundane death ward). Immunity to Stun, Daze, Paralyzed, etc. Immunity to magically created wind. Something to increase touch AC. Balance as a class skill.


Basically a mage slayer is 1 part mobility and damage, 10 parts making everything you can think of ever just not work. I'd say you're a little over halfway there, especially with the no immediate actions or contingencies. But remember the excercise semi-recently where a level 15 wizard took out a level 300 monk? He had awesome saves, SR, and other resistances. It wasn't enough.

Treblain
2012-02-12, 01:21 AM
So what happens if a wizard targets a Mage Slayer with a secondary arc of Chain Lightning, and fails to bypass SR? Does the original target get hit?

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-12, 01:40 AM
Yes, but none of the other secondary arc targets would get hit.

wolflance
2012-02-12, 04:38 AM
I really like this, although some measure to take care of

1) called/gate-in creatures
2) shapechanging/person enlarging/polymorph spells
3) prevent ressurection/reincarnation/whatever

would be nice.

Try to pit this class against a Demi-lich, if it can win reliably, then this class probably is good at what it does, IMHO.

TuggyNE
2012-02-12, 06:40 AM
Try to pit this class against a Demi-lich, if it can win reliably, then this class probably is good at what it does, IMHO.

This seems like a good idea, but at what level? Equal CR? CR +/-2? or what?

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-12, 09:34 AM
I really like this, although some measure to take care of

1) called/gate-in creatures
2) shapechanging/person enlarging/polymorph spells
3) prevent ressurection/reincarnation/whatever

would be nice.

Try to pit this class against a Demi-lich, if it can win reliably, then this class probably is good at what it does, IMHO.

Disjunction will completely dispel the 2nd option. I'll figure out something for the other two though.

Yitzi
2012-02-12, 11:00 AM
But remember the excercise semi-recently where a level 15 wizard took out a level 300 monk? He had awesome saves, SR, and other resistances. It wasn't enough.

Now this I have to see. Have a link?

Deepbluediver
2012-02-12, 12:39 PM
One of the first Forgotten Realms books I ever read was one of the Eliminster novels, and he ends up fighting a creature that I think was called a mage slayer (or some variant of that). It was essentially a magic consruct that once created, absorbed and fed on other spells. Elminster beat it eventually, by dropping rocks on it.

While your class certainly would stop a blaster-caster cold, it seems like there are still plenty of non-direct spells that a skilled caster could still use to wreck havoc. Things like earthquake to collapse the building, summoning waves of little minions to attack the mage slayer and wear him down, shapeshifting into a dragon and just going toe-to-toe in melee range, etc.

I confess I'm not an expert on all the intricacies of anti-magic shields and counterspells, but it was just something I thought of.

Madwand
2012-02-13, 06:11 AM
Aura of Mundane Order (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, a mage slayer projects an antimagic field, as the spell, with a radius of 1 mile/character level. The mage slayer may suppress or resume this ability as a free action or an immediate action. The mage slayer and his equipment are not affected by his Aura of Mundane Order. This is an extraordinary ability.

It is a completly unplayable. On level 17 you nagate magic in 10 milies radius as an immediate action ? First, it is beyond epic spellcaster silly. Second, your party members will hate you. And literally, because you nagate all their toys and spells chenging them into commoners. Third, being not affected with equipment is an Initiate of Mystra level cheese, so..why bother if you need to broke the game to kill game-breaker wizards?

I would suggest to change it back to normal size or (better) give him an anti-magic cone, around 250 ft.


Even with this fix I would not allow it into any game. It is a good exercise into teoretical optimalization (what amount of cheese I need to slay Tier 1 wizard? or better: what wizards abilities I need to slay a wizard without playing wizard myself?:smallwink:) but in real game it just too much.

absolmorph
2012-02-13, 06:24 AM
It is a completly unplayable. On level 17 you nagate magic in 10 milies radius as an immediate action ? First, it is beyond epic spellcaster silly. Second, your party members will hate you. And literally, because you nagate all their toys and spells chenging them into commoners. Third, being not affected with equipment is an Initiate of Mystra level cheese, so..why bother if you need to broke the game to kill game-breaker wizards?

I would suggest to change it back to normal size or (better) give him an anti-magic cone, around 250 ft.


Even with this fix I would not allow it into any game. It is a good exercise into teoretical optimalization (what amount of cheese I need to slay Tier 1 wizard? or better: what wizards abilities I need to slay a wizard without playing wizard myself?:smallwink:) but in real game it just too much.
17 miles, actually.
It's based on character level, not class level.

Nifar
2012-02-15, 05:50 PM
Author's Note: This class is unfair. I acknowledge that it is unfair. However, if you really want a melee class that can stand up to a caster, you can't play by any sort of rules that WotC has put out.
The Tomb of Battle spits at you, sir.

Wyntonian
2012-02-15, 11:33 PM
The Tomb of Battle spits at you, sir.

It better not spit at a wizard, though. They still laugh at your puny little maneuvers. "Oh, you can shoot a bunch of fire as your 9th-level spell? I just went all Carl Sagan and created the universe." Yes, ToB narrows the linear-quadratic gap, but it most certainly doesn't eliminate it.

Nifar
2012-02-16, 12:33 AM
There's a difference between being able to stand up to, and possibly beat, a class/person/whatever, and there being no gap whatsoever.

Besides, this doesn't eliminate the gap. It just widens the hell out of it, in the favor of the Mage Slayer.

absolmorph
2012-02-16, 02:46 AM
There's a difference between being able to stand up to, and possibly beat, a class/person/whatever, and there being no gap whatsoever.

Besides, this doesn't eliminate the gap. It just widens the hell out of it, in the favor of the Mage Slayer.
No.
Wizards can invoke this, too. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)
... Which is honestly rather ironic.
Relevant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm) spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)

Furthermore, physics abuse with magical aid can cause mass destruction at far greater ranges than 20 miles.
Honestly, it's foiled by a well-placed blanket.

Yitzi
2012-02-16, 07:17 AM
There's a difference between being able to stand up to, and possibly beat, a class/person/whatever, and there being no gap whatsoever.

Besides, this doesn't eliminate the gap. It just widens the hell out of it, in the favor of the Mage Slayer.

Except that now a fighter can beat that Mage Slayer, so he's not useless when there's a wizard around.

Madwand
2012-02-25, 05:56 PM
Except that now a fighter can beat that Mage Slayer, so he's not useless when there's a wizard around.

Exept that fighter is still pathetic loser. Mageslayer cast one disjuction and fighter can't even fly. Then he laugh and use sonic blade to finish him.

So now fighter is useless in presence of both Mageslayer and Wizard.:smallwink:

Yitzi
2012-02-25, 09:32 PM
Exept that fighter is still pathetic loser. Mageslayer cast one disjuction and fighter can't even fly. Then he laugh and use sonic blade to finish him.

And while the Mage Slayer is using Sonic Blade, the fighter will be using a bow, which with the right feats (which the Mage Slayer can't afford) can probably do better.

But yes, the Mage Slayer does need to be weakened substantially so that the fighter can beat the Mage Slayer as badly as the Mage Slayer beats the wizard (or the wizard beats the fighter). Some ideas that could help:

1. Lower the Mage Slayer's BAB to medium. After all, wizards have notoriously low AC unless substantially buffed, and the more buffs a wizard has the more devastating Mage Slayer's Will is.

2. Lower the Mage Slayer's hit die size. It's not as if a wizard's strongest attack will target hit points anyway. Probably boost his touch AC, though (either via a moderate boost to AC or an ability similar to the Wilder's Elude Touch), to protect against Creation touch spells.

3. Remove anything above light armor and all shields from proficiencies. Light armor should be enough against summons, and a wizard isn't targeting armor-based AC anyway. Give him Evasion and Improved Evasion to help encourage light armor use.

4. Remove Sonic Blade, and replace with a seeking-like ability for ranged weapons (i.e. ignores miss chance) and a lower-range Fort-save-or-die-vs.-low-HD-enemies area effect to deal with summons.

5. Remove the teleportation, and replace with a piggybacking effect. After all, he doesn't actually have to be able to teleport on his own, just to follow his target.

Other points:

1. Aura of Mundane Order is still broken. Make it line-of-effect and it affects the Mage Slayer and his equipment as well; it should still be enough to make wizards cry. (Effectively, it turns Mage Slayer vs. wizard into high tier 6 vs. low tier 6.)

2. Make that Disjunction more like the Pathfinder version (i.e. doesn't ruin all the loot).

Madwand
2012-02-27, 05:55 AM
And while the Mage Slayer is using Sonic Blade, the fighter will be using a bow, which with the right feats (which the Mage Slayer can't afford) can probably do better

Figther has no magic gear. So he can't do better. :smalltongue:

Yitzi
2012-02-27, 11:44 AM
Figther has no magic gear. So he can't do better. :smalltongue:

Rapid Shot etc. can be quite useful. That said, it probably would still have a hard time keeping up with the Mage Slayer's magic gear; hence, it is absolutely essential to fix Aura of Mundane Order (likely in the way I said).

Randomguy
2012-02-27, 05:15 PM
You've created a class that can utterly destroy anything below tier 1 and most non optimized tier 1's, but still fails against very high op (and this class is just asking to be faced off against high op builds) casters.

An initiate of mystra (3 level cleric dip on a wizard or druid still gets 9's) is unaffected by the antimagic field. They can just cast time stop, possibly a second time with a greater metamagic rod of quicken spell. Then they pull out their weirdstone (or whatever that item is that blocks all teleportation within a few miles) and cast undermaster to use move earth 5 times and bury the mageslayer in about 3000 feat of earth. After disjoining their flight and items, of course.

(And it's possible to pull this off, two: 1 9th level slot for time stop, 1 from being a transmuter for the second time stop, 1 from being an incantatrix for disjunction and one for undermaster from a high ability score).