Melee Spellcaster - No ToB, OA, or Dragon Mags

[Flynja]

Hello everyone, I'm sort of new to the whole spellcaster thing, and my DM has been purposely throwing me against everything that has a massive spell resistance, but either way, I've wanted to do more of a melee spellcaster (inspiration from Fairy Tail).

There are a few things that I want to keep in mind, which is the ability to get up to or close to 9th level spells by 20th level. I'm not allowed to use Tome of Battle, Dragon Magazines, or Oriental Adventures classes, nor can I use the Ultimate Magus. I already have a character created but there are "rebirth quests" that can be done that will allow me to change all aspects of my character.

So, I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions? I've played mostly melee characters in the past but I want to be able to be a front-line ice or fire based spellcaster. Also anything that allows me to keep a high spellcraft check would be great as I'm hoping by the end of the campaign I can come up with some pretty sweet epic level spells.

I've also found some things that have allowed me to bypass arcane spell failure with medium armor and a shield (light armor and shield prof included). I'm currently level 6 but the campaign will go on for a while, and I would like to be able to come up with a plan for the future levels.

Thanks in advance :)

[Medic!]

I think you just described the Duskblade from PHB2 almost to a T. They only get up to 5th lvl spells though, and from a limited spell list.

[dextercorvia]

I think you just described the Duskblade from PHB2 almost to a T. They only get up to 5th lvl spells though, and from a limited spell list.

Not really, he wants 9ths or close.

Sorcadin: Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8 gets ninth level spells, +16 BaB.

There are plenty of others, what kind of constraints are we dealing with?

[Strormer]

Duskblade for the win, true no 9th level spells, but a really fun class to play given your design plan. After that various designs on bladesingers and warmages come to mind. Even a core sorcerer built right could pull it off.

[JadePhoenix]

+1 to Duskblade. No 9ths, but easy to play and very close to Fairy Tail feel of a melee mage.

Oh, btw. If you want to play Natsu, get Dragontouched and draconic feats whenever you have room. Dragon Breath is a must.

[DeAnno]

He wants Epic Spells. Can Epic Duskblades even cast those?

[Snowbluff]

Not really, he wants 9ths or close.

Sorcadin: Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8 gets ninth level spells, +16 BaB.

There are plenty of others, what kind of constraints are we dealing with?

This build is overrated. Go Swift Blade and EARN your action economy. If you'll whine about not getting ninths, take Beguiler, grab Versatile Spell caster, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Arcane Disciple (Which is extra spell times NINE for Beguiler/DN.Warmage) to fill in the spells you need. The only bad part is the 2 feats needed for Swift Blade.

[dextercorvia]

This build is overrated. Go Swift Blade and EARN your action economy. If you'll whine about not getting ninths, take Beguiler, grab Versatile Spell caster, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Arcane Disciple (Which is extra spell times NINE for Beguiler/DN.Warmage) to fill in the spells you need. The only bad part is the 2 feats needed for Swift Blade.

Arcane Disciple is not nearly the same. You can only cast each spell once per day. Beguiler is an awful gish chassis, as you don't have many of the best gish spells -- and they can't be filled in quite so easily as 'take arcane disciple'.

Swiftblade is good. Personally, I skip level 10, and get my ninths.

[Hirax]

And now for the completely unreasonable possibility!

Be a grey elf, and use the generalist variant from Races of the Wild. Assuming 32 point buy, buy to 18 int (which becomes 20 with the racial bonus), 15 wis, and 15 cha. Be venerable. Persisted shapechange makes your physical stats not matter.

Wizard5/incantatrix9/mindbender1/incantatrix+1/olin gisir1/loremaster1/your choice2.

Use the martial wizard variant in Unearth Arcana to ditch scribe scroll and get a fighter bonus instead.

Worship Lyris, from Complete Warrior, who grants access to all the domains presented, except for the planning domain. The planning domain was never given to any Greyhawk deities, and didn't appear outside FR until it was put in the Spell Compendium, which states that you can give it to appropriate deities. Lyris is a deity of war, fate, destiny, and all that jazz, I'd say planning fits like a shoe.

Feats:
Frog God's Fane: Skill focus (history)
Court of Thieves: Lucky start (reroll initiative)
Otuygh Hole: Iron will
Flaw: Empower spell
Flaw: Searing spell
Wizard1: Fighter bonus feat of your choice
1: Arcane disciple (destiny)
3: Arcane disciple (luck)
Wizard5: Extend spell (planning domain granted power, feat isn't taken directly)
6: Snowcasting
Inc1: Energy sub: fire
9: Mother cyst
Inc4: Extend spell
12: Arcane disciple (war)
Inc7: Persistent spell
15: Mindsight
Inc10: Quicken spell
Olin gisir1: energy admix (fire)
Loremaster1: Spell Mastery
18: Uncanny forethought

Incantatrix allows you to persist lots of great spells, notably divine power (from the war domain) and bite of the werebear (which grants power attack on top of a huge strength bonus). Arcane disciple (luck) gets you miracle, which in turn can get you any spell of 7th level or lower. Like giant size! So, for instance, you can shapechange into something with 40 strength, and cast giant size to become colossal and get yet another huge boost to strength. I recommend also using a vest of the archmagi so that you can reuse miracle throughout the day. Another use of miracle is to duplicate the consumptive field spell. Feed consumptive fields with the animals from bags of tricks to rocket your strength (and caster level) even higher. Use incantatrix to make consumptive field persistent, of course. Heroics (Spell Compendium) grants you a fighter bonus feat for 10 minutes per level. Extend it and it will last all day, use pearls of power to cheaply get multiple castings for multiple feats.

You want fire or ice? Why not fire and ice! Use snowcasting to add the cold descriptor to dragon breath, instant metamagic to add persistant spell without increasing its level, and a piercing cold rod (Frostburn) to make the cold damage...piercing. Choose a fire breath weapon, which will give the spell the good or evil descriptor (your pick). Use Incantatrix's metamagic effect ability to add the following to dragon breath: maximize spell, extend spell (if your DM rules that extend+persist means a 48 hour duration), energy admix: fire (adds fire descriptor), searing spell, and empower spell. Wear a dragon spirit cincture (Magic Item Compendium) for good measure. Now cast breath weapon admixture and pick cold damage (see, there was a point to that piercing cold rod!). Use use metamagic effect to persist it (and extend, if your DM allows 48 hour durations). Congratulations! You now have an icy hot breath weapon that bypasses fire and cold resistance, does half damage even to creatures with the appropriate immunity, effectively dooming anything that doesn't have evasion. Persist other admixtures if desired, though your limited uses of metamagic effect are probably better spent on other buffs. The most conservative reading of how the damage of this breath weapon adds up results in an average damage of 200~, and the least conservative reading results in an average damage of 400~. Being a breath weapon, it ignores SR.

Note that if you want to really rocket your attack bonus for melee, on top of all the strength boosters that I've pointed out, you can use miracle to get algid enhancement (Frostburn) and mantle of the icy soul (Spell Compendium supersedes Frostburn version). With a high CL from consumptive field, you should have no problem using algid enhancement to get a +10 enhancement bonus to attack rolls at least. Combo it with divine power and a high strength score and you'll be getting +60 to +80 on attacks easily. Oh, and the reason I suggested arcane disciple (destiny) was to persist choose destiny. So whenever you roll an attack roll, save, ability check (like initiative!), or skill check, you roll 2d20 and take the better result. So your chances of a nat 1 are reduced to 1/400.

Your base int (20), being venerable (23), persisted+extended necrotic empowerment (31), 5 leveling bumps (36), and an inherent bonus of +4 (40) will give you an int mod of +15, giving you 18 uses of metamagic effect per day. Use them wisely.

To boost spellcraft:
23 Ranks
15 Int mod
10 Take 10
2 Share talents (PHB2 spell, use with your familiar)
5 Tome of ancient lore (Magic Item Compendium)
2 Synergy (knowledge: arcana)
8 Divine insight (get it from a wand)
65 Total

As an aside, if you go swiftblade, I agree to skip level 10. It's a fun class that I highly recommend if you're not interested in the monstrosity I've presented above. Though if you are I'm happy to answer questions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Swiftblade can get 9ths with Kobold shenanigans, otherwise it's a bit overrated. You don't need to break action economy, just be able to have buffs on and full attack.

Probably the most powerful gish build is something like Fighter 2/ (Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard)) Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4*/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4; If you can use fractional BAB from UA, replace the 4th Incantatrix level with one Paragnostic Apostle to get Mind Over Matter. Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd and use Invest Skill Ranks to boost your Spellcraft check, and use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix to Persist your buffs. Use the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it. You may want to put some or all of the Abjurant Champion levels before/during Incantatrix. Get Minor Shapeshift (CM), Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Toughness. Persistent buffs should include Shield, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Swift Fly, Displacement, you should get the idea.

[MysticMind]

A Full armored-melee spellcaster will be OP, unless our spell list is soo crapy. We all know that clerics can defeat any wizzy(and maybe sorcs) as well as fighters, without moving a finger. To have a great melee capability and full spell progression choose a spell list that's not flashy and offensive, avoid abjuration and evocation spells. Such is, an alternative spell list suggested as an idea in DM's guide 3.5e, i think on the page before prestige classes :smallwink:

[Manateee]

All the duskblade suggestions are terrible advice. It doesn't come close to 9ths and it has a way harder time with SR than a straight spellcaster.

On topic, I'm going to stick with Druid 20 until we get a parameter to it narrow it down.

[Psyren]

He wants Epic Spells. Can Epic Duskblades even cast those?

Way, way, WAY into epic. So I wouldn't advise this at all.

And honestly, psionics models anything from anime much better than magic.

[Socratov]

And now for the completely unreasonable possibility!

Be a grey elf, and use the generalist variant from Races of the Wild. Assuming 32 point buy, buy to 18 int (which becomes 20 with the racial bonus), 15 wis, and 15 cha. Be venerable. Persisted shapechange makes your physical stats not matter.

Wizard5/incantatrix9/mindbender1/incantatrix+1/olin gisir1/loremaster1/your choice2.

Use the martial wizard variant in Unearth Arcana to ditch scribe scroll and get a fighter bonus instead.

Worship Lyris, from Complete Warrior, who grants access to all the domains presented, except for the planning domain. The planning domain was never given to any Greyhawk deities, and didn't appear outside FR until it was put in the Spell Compendium, which states that you can give it to appropriate deities. Lyris is a deity of war, fate, destiny, and all that jazz, I'd say planning fits like a shoe.

Feats:
Frog God's Fane: Skill focus (history)
Court of Thieves: Lucky start (reroll initiative)
Otuygh Hole: Iron will
Flaw: Empower spell
Flaw: Searing spell
Wizard1: Fighter bonus feat of your choice
1: Arcane disciple (destiny)
3: Arcane disciple (luck)
Wizard5: Extend spell (planning domain granted power, feat isn't taken directly)
6: Snowcasting
Inc1: Energy sub: fire
9: Mother cyst
Inc4: Extend spell
12: Arcane disciple (war)
Inc7: Persistent spell
15: Mindsight
Inc10: Quicken spell
Olin gisir1: energy admix (fire)
Loremaster1: Spell Mastery
18: Uncanny forethought

Incantatrix allows you to persist lots of great spells, notably divine power (from the war domain) and bite of the werebear (which grants power attack on top of a huge strength bonus). Arcane disciple (luck) gets you miracle, which in turn can get you any spell of 7th level or lower. Like giant size! So, for instance, you can shapechange into something with 40 strength, and cast giant size to become colossal and get yet another huge boost to strength. I recommend also using a vest of the archmagi so that you can reuse miracle throughout the day. Another use of miracle is to duplicate the consumptive field spell. Feed consumptive fields with the animals from bags of tricks to rocket your strength (and caster level) even higher. Use incantatrix to make consumptive field persistent, of course. Heroics (Spell Compendium) grants you a fighter bonus feat for 10 minutes per level. Extend it and it will last all day, use pearls of power to cheaply get multiple castings for multiple feats.

You want fire or ice? Why not fire and ice! Use snowcasting to add the cold descriptor to dragon breath, instant metamagic to add persistant spell without increasing its level, and a piercing cold rod (Frostburn) to make the cold damage...piercing. Choose a fire breath weapon, which will give the spell the good or evil descriptor (your pick). Use Incantatrix's metamagic effect ability to add the following to dragon breath: maximize spell, extend spell (if your DM rules that extend+persist means a 48 hour duration), energy admix: fire (adds fire descriptor), searing spell, and empower spell. Wear a dragon spirit cincture (Magic Item Compendium) for good measure. Now cast breath weapon admixture and pick cold damage (see, there was a point to that piercing cold rod!). Use use metamagic effect to persist it (and extend, if your DM allows 48 hour durations). Congratulations! You now have an icy hot breath weapon that bypasses fire and cold resistance, does half damage even to creatures with the appropriate immunity, effectively dooming anything that doesn't have evasion. Persist other admixtures if desired, though your limited uses of metamagic effect are probably better spent on other buffs. The most conservative reading of how the damage of this breath weapon adds up results in an average damage of 200~, and the least conservative reading results in an average damage of 400~.

Note that if you want to really rocket your attack bonus for melee, on top of all the strength boosters that I've pointed out, you can use miracle to get algid enhancement (Frostburn) and mantle of the icy soul (Spell Compendium supersedes Frostburn version). With a high CL from consumptive field, you should have no problem using algid enhancement to get a +10 enhancement bonus to attack rolls at least. Combo it with divine power and a high strength score and you'll be getting +60 to +80 on attacks easily. Oh, and the reason I suggested arcane disciple (destiny) was to persist choose destiny. So whenever you roll an attack roll, save, ability check (like initiative!), or skill check, you roll 2d20 and take the better result. So your chances of a nat 1 are reduced to 1/400.

Your base int (20), being venerable (23), persisted+extended necrotic empowerment (31), 5 leveling bumps (36), and an inherent bonus of +4 (40) will give you an int mod of +15, giving you 18 uses of metamagic effect per day. Use them wisely.

To boost spellcraft:
23 Ranks
15 Int mod
10 Take 10
2 Share talents (PHB2 spell, use with your familiar)
5 Tome of ancient lore (Magic Item Compendium)
2 Synergy (knowledge: arcana)
8 Divine insight (get it from a wand)
65 Total

As an aside, if you go swiftblade, I agree to skip level 10. It's a fun class that I highly recommend if you're not interested in the monstrosity I've presented above. Though if you are I'm happy to answer questions.

wow, you know the Op asked for Natsu or Gray, right, not all of the fairytail cast :smallamused:

Good work, although you might set off a few of the DM's munchkin alarms... I know it set's of mine...

[FMArthur]

Yeah, psionics can get what you want pretty easily in a number of ways. Psyren can do this better than I, but I'm bored so I hope I don't get ninja'd here. :smalltongue:

Class-independently, psionic characters can be more durable than just about anything else. Choosing elan as your race lets you spend pp to reduce incoming damage (and taking Enhanced Elan Resilience doubles its efficiency) whenever you like, and the Vigor+Share Pain comboed with a psicrystal's ability to share your powers means that you can get basically double returns on Vigor to pad out your HP. Both are effective.
More class-specific is the ability to send the action economy to its room without supper. This is important for gishes obviously because otherwise you're only punching someone in the face or casting spells at one time, and you want to do both at once to be a gish. The Schism, Synchronicity and Temporal Acceleration powers are relatively Psion/Erudite-exclusive, with only Temporal Acceleration going to Ardents. Nonetheless, any psionic class can take Expanded Knowledge.
The Psychic Warrior is a more versatile 'gish-in-a-can' class than the Duskblade is, spellwise, and can coopt powers from more 'pure' psionic casters' lists with Expanded Knowledge whenever it wants. It also gets a truckload of bonus feats to put it all together as you like.
Ardent is the next step into the caster zone, getting access to 9ths and a full psion-level PP pool. Its mantles provide a handful of free, always-ready-to-use benefits and you can choose disparate themes in your mantles to pick up both melee-centric and caster-ish powers from different mantles. Ardents are one of the best classes in the game for melee damage return (ie damaging enemies for attacking you) and can be good at protecting allies as well.
Psions/Erudites seem like unlikely candidates with their poor BAB, but the Slayer prestige class make up for it partly and an attack bonus deficit can be shored up in other ways anyway. I think there are other combos besides this, but the one I know for Psions is Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal. You Control Body yourself, giving you Int to AC, to-hit and damage by puppeteering your body telekinetically. Then you use the swift action power Solicit Psicrystal to transfer the spell's concentration to your psicrystal, freeing up your own actions to keep casting while the psicrystal uses its turns to have you attack your enemies. Pretty damned cool and very efficient in its action use, even on the turn you initiate it. Control Body is off of the Kineticist discipline list, which is already the perfect choice for an energy blaster if that's what you want.

[jindra34]

All the duskblade suggestions are terrible advice. It doesn't come close to 9ths and it has a way harder time with SR than a straight spellcaster.


Might I ask why it has a harder time with SR than other casters considering it is a 20 level caster and it has a class feature that gives bonuses to overcoming SR when it smacks things?

[ExemplarofAvg]

Fairy Tail, My specialty.
Natsu Dragneel (as that is who I assume you are going for)
Dragon Fire Adept: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2

Choose Fire, Check to see if Warlock/Dragonfire Adept Invocations can mix and match. Read this: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!

Magic Through Melee and call it a day. (Also might work for Zancrow)

Alternatively a Dragon Shaman from PHB 2 might work, Natsu doesn't actually have much in the way of spells. (Fire Dragons: Roar, Wings, Claw, Talon, Horn, Gleaming Flame, Elbow, Fang, Fist, Blade)

Also a Brimstone Blast Warlock may work as well.

However if you're looking for a real Pyromancer and not a Fire Dragon Slayer use one of the above options.

[dextercorvia]

Might I ask why it has a harder time with SR than other casters considering it is a 20 level caster and it has a class feature that gives bonuses to overcoming SR when it smacks things?

It lacks some of the best SR:No spells, and Spell Resistance bypassers like Assay Spell Resistance. It also doesn't have access to the best Gish buffs, although that doesn't have anything to do with SR, except that you don't have to worry about SR with a Wraithstrike or Heart of X.

[Snowbluff]

Swiftblade can get 9ths with Kobold shenanigans, otherwise it's a bit overrated. You don't need to break action economy, just be able to have buffs on and full attack.


Versatile spellcaster + bequiler/warmage/DN, extra standards are murder, and even without actual 9th level slots, you get timestop as a free action.

EDIT: With travel Devotion you can do 2 Full Attacks/round. Output is something it does not lack.

[dextercorvia]

Versatile spellcaster + bequiler/warmage/DN, extra standards are murder, and even without actual 9th level slots, you get timestop as a free action.

EDIT: With travel Devotion you can do 2 Full Attacks/round. Output is something it does not lack.

Travel Devotion does not work that way.

[navar100]

On a side note, tell your DM to stop being a donkey cavity and providing every monster with spell resistance just because you play a character who casts spells.

[Snowbluff]

Travel Devotion does not work that way.

Okay, I'll remember that for the handbook. Polymorph Choker instead then. ^^'

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Okay, I'll remember that for the handbook. Polymorph Choker instead then. ^^'

You mean for Quickness (Su)? You'll need Shapechange for that, and you don't get 9ths...


The major drawback of a Duskblade regarding SR is their mode of operation compared to just about any other arcane gish. A Duskblade uses spells to deal damage directly to his opponents, thus nearly every spell he casts has to go through SR. A gish that uses a core spellcasting class has access to far more buffs, spells he casts on himself that ignore SR, and of the few spells he does need to directly hit opponents with he can pick and choose ones that completely bypass SR.

[Snowbluff]

[QUOTE=Biffoniacus_Furiou;12702017]You mean for Quickness (Su)? You'll need Shapechange for that, and you don't get 9ths...

Their are ways to get ninths really easily, and Druid can enter Swiftblade with a (few if you want 7th level entry) feat(s) (Sounds like a bad idea, though).

[Wings of Peace]

If flaws are allowed then Human Wizard (fighter variant) 4/Spelldancer 1 is pretty solid for Persist.

[dextercorvia]

Their are ways to get ninths really easily, and Druid can enter Swiftblade with a (few if you want 7th level entry) feat(s) (Sounds like a bad idea, though).

No. There are ways to get 9ths with moderate to extreme cheese, the closest of those to easy involves Sorcerer entry with Loredrake/GDRoP. But starting as a Kobold is going to hurt your melee capacity at least until you get to polymorph. It also sounds like this guy wants to be humanoid and wield a weapon, rather that change into a beastie to do the job.

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3 - 16 BAB, 9th level spells, can cast spells in light armor (or medium armor with the Battle Caster feat). If you want a shield just pick up a +X Twilight Mithral Heavy Shield. However if you can get the Shield spell than that would be the better option because of Abjurant Champion.

[Flynja]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Didn't expect this much so quickly, and I haven't really gotten a chance to read it all yet (still at work, waiting on some customers to finish up!). At any rate a few questions I could answer real quick, like I said in original post restrictions are no Dragon Magazines, no Oriental Adventures, no Tome of Battle. I am playing a Drow (my mother and father were Drow in previous campaign, mother being my character) and I would like to stick closer to magic than psionics since my father was the Archmage who guarded the King, but I feel like he should also be proficient in physical ability since his mother was a dervish. Resorting to polymorph for situations isn't something I would hate to do, but I would prefer the ability to play my character in his own skin. Thanks in advance again, and I'm not whining about not getting epic spells right away, but I would prefer to be able to get my seeds somewhat relatively quickly.


wow, you know the Op asked for Natsu or Gray, right, not all of the fairytail cast :smallamused:

Good work, although you might set off a few of the DM's munchkin alarms... I know it set's of mine...

And on this note, my DM does this sort of stuff just to screw with me. He's my best friend but its annoying as hell, so if I have a workaround so that when my magic doesn't seem to help being able to bust out a weapon or fist and proceed to pummel his minions would be a huge bonus. At the same time, he doesn't just outright murder my character if its a munchkin, only if I play my character like an elder scrolls character (finish story line, proceed to kill every npc ever). When I started playing I was more of a munchkin but I'm becoming more of a roleplayer, and on that note Mantle of the Icy Soul is a spell befitting my character since I'm the owner of the Silver Ice guild. :D

[Snowbluff]

No. There are ways to get 9ths with moderate to extreme cheese, the closest of those to easy involves Sorcerer entry with Loredrake/GDRoP. But starting as a Kobold is going to hurt your melee capacity at least until you get to polymorph. It also sounds like this guy wants to be humanoid and wield a weapon, rather that change into a beastie to do the job.

...it's obvious we aren't on the same page.

Versatile Spellcaster. It's minor cheese at the worst, and sorcerer is a bad option for Swiftblade for several reasons anyway. Either way you still can 'cast' Time Stop as a free action by subsuming your Haste spells in higher level slots.

Sorc only gets one 9th level spell with the typical gish build, anyway. Why not take Time Stop?

EDIT: Also, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard entry can all get 9ths without cheese if they won't bother with the tenth level ability. It should be noted for Wizard Capability >>>>>> Capacity regardless.

[dextercorvia]

...it's obvious we aren't on the same page.

Versatile Spellcaster. It's minor cheese at the worst, and sorcerer is a bad option for Swiftblade for several reasons anyway. Either way you still can 'cast' Time Stop as a free action by subsuming your Haste spells in higher level slots.

Sorc only gets one 9th level spell with the typical gish build, anyway. Why not take Time Stop?

EDIT: Also, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard entry can all get 9ths without cheese if they won't bother with the tenth level ability. It should be noted for Wizard Capability >>>>>> Capacity regardless.

Versatile Spellcaster to cast a spell above your level isn't just minor cheese, and requires more feats to make it work, otherwise you don't know any 9th level spells to cast. Face it, pretending to cast a spell level you can't yet for early entry is minor cheese. Actually casting spells that are higher level than you should be able to is at least moderate cheese.

Clerics and Druids can not take 9 levels of Swiftblade and get 9th level spells without extreme cheese. Swiftblade only advances arcane casting.

And, Sorcerer Gishes don't take Time Stop, since Shapechange is available. (This is a little tongue in cheek, but one is better than the other.)

[JadePhoenix]

It lacks some of the best SR:No spells, and Spell Resistance bypassers like Assay Spell Resistance. It also doesn't have access to the best Gish buffs, although that doesn't have anything to do with SR, except that you don't have to worry about SR with a Wraithstrike or Heart of X.

You do know Duskblades have a class ability to deal with spell resistance, right?

[dextercorvia]

You do know Duskblades have a class ability to deal with spell resistance, right?

It only goes up to a +5, and you have to damage them in melee first. I'm a little unclear as to how it works with channeling, since you cast the spell, then attack when you channel, as opposed to casting it after you deal damage. There are plenty of cases where this isn't optimal.

Edit: and as I said, their list is not the best gish list out there. A Wizard based gish with only 6th level spells would be better.

[Hirax]

As pointed out, duskblades need to invest way too many feats into getting 9th levels spells to qualify for epic spellcasting, it's just not worth it. Not to mention the required shenanigans might not pass DM scrutiny.

[Manateee]

You do know Duskblades have a class ability to deal with spell resistance, right?
Compare that to what a gish with decent self-buffs can do (never roll SR), or a gish blaster akin to the Duskblade, but with decent blasting spells (never roll SR), or a caster-heavier gish who can revert to control spells against high-SR opponents, not roll SR, and still be effective.

The Duskblade gets tools to make the problem less bad, but its alternatives have tools to make the problem just go away. At worst, the Duskblade's alternatives can just drop an Assay Resistance and get double the Duskblade's bonus against SR - and still be free to get prestige class goodies into their builds.

The Duskblade's best tool in a scenario involving meaningful spell resistance is its Arcane Strike. But that can hardly keep up with a basic Fighter/Wizard with Arcane Strike, wraithstrike and polymorph.

Edit:
Duskblade could be viable without too much trouble in something like Duskblade 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8, but it's not going to be the Duskblade carrying the weight in the sorts of scenarios outlines in the OP.

[Snowbluff]

Clerics and Druids can not take 9 levels of Swiftblade and get 9th level spells without extreme cheese. Swiftblade only advances arcane casting.

And, Sorcerer Gishes don't take Time Stop, since Shapechange is available. (This is a little tongue in cheek, but one is better than the other.)

Extra Spell is cheese? Spelltype fixing is cheese? Oh god, I am getting woozy. Somebuddy get me some water...:smalltongue:

Taking Shapechange defeats the purpose of the exercise, but yes, it is better than Timestop for most things.

[Manateee]

Somebuddy get me some water...:smalltongue:
Just anecdotal, but Dexter's experience jibes much more closely to anything I've experienced than yours.

[Snowbluff]

Just anecdotal, but Dexter's experience jibes much more closely to anything I've experienced than yours.

If you are saying Dexter is good at mocking you, then I'll ask him for his notes... Thanks for the sparring, this argument will be used to fix things in the handbook. :smallbiggrin: I know that causing the PrC to gain use is the best way to make you squirm (jk, I don't hate you).

Regardless, Swiftblade is a legitimate Gishing class, but it does take more work than a copy-pasta Sorcadin. If done right, it can make sliced sashimi of most things regardless of entry or level of optimization.

[dextercorvia]

Extra Spell is cheese? Spelltype fixing is cheese? Oh god, I am getting woozy. Somebuddy get me some water...:smalltongue:

Taking Shapechange defeats the purpose of the exercise, but yes, it is better than Timestop for most things.

Explain how Extra Spell is getting 9ths when you don't have the class levels for it?

What is Spelltype fixing?

It is well established that I like high-op, and I have a high level of lactose tolerance, but I recognize cheese for what it is.

What is this hanbook you keep referring to? Surely you didn't write a handbook on Swiftblade, and then come into a thread suggesting that it was easy and uncheesy for a Cleric to get 9 levels of Swiftblade and cast 9th level spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cleric has absolutely no problem qualifying for Swiftblade, just get the Time domain with the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2. The big problem though is that Swiftblade only advances an arcane spellcasting class, which Cleric is not. Even if you can somehow get your Cleric spells to count as arcane when cast (Southern Magician, Alternative Spell Source, etc.) it still is not considered an arcane spellcasting class and thus cannot be advanced by Swiftblade. Unless you're playing Gestalt or using that combination of feats that technically allows a Cleric 7 to cast Miracle, you're not going to get 9th level Cleric spells in any pre-epic build that includes Swiftblade 9.

[Talionis]

Rune Scarred Barbarian. Gives you a little high level casting with a melee feel. Being able to cast Anti-Magic Field can feel pretty powerful for a strong melee character.

[Snowbluff]

It is well established that I like high-op, and I have a high level of lactose tolerance, but I recognize cheese for what it is.

What is this hanbook you keep referring to? Surely you didn't write a handbook on Swiftblade, and then come into a thread suggesting that it was easy and uncheesy for a Cleric to get 9 levels of Swiftblade and cast 9th level spells.

Wizard6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChamp is the Soy version of using Swiftblade for 9th level spells, but this can be very difficult to do properly, as you will have to prepare your spells and will have less spells/day.

Also, I've started on the Handbook, and haven't posted it yet. Very much WIP at this point. I'm doing the handbook mostly for myself and to give people (including myself) another viable option for gish.

[dextercorvia]

Wizard6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChamp is the Soy version of using Swiftblade for 9th level spells, but this can be very difficult to do properly, as you will have to prepare your spells and will have less spells/day.

Also, I've started on the Handbook, and haven't posted it yet. Very much WIP at this point. I'm doing the handbook mostly for myself and to give people (including myself) another viable option for gish.

That isn't a cleric or druid build. Also, how are you using extra spell to get 9th level spells? And, what is spelltype fixing. You laughed at me for considering them cheese, when they hadn't come up in the thread previously. I would like an explanation and a chance to cut your arguments to pieces.

I assume you are afraid of just that happening, since you didn't respond to that part of my earlier post.

[Snowbluff]

That isn't a cleric or druid build. Also, how are you using extra spell to get 9th level spells? And, what is spelltype fixing. You laughed at me for considering them cheese, when they hadn't come up in the thread previously. I would like an explanation and a chance to cut your arguments to pieces.

No, I meant to use it for getting the Haste spell without taking the Time Domain.

Spelltype Fixing would be getting your spells to count for Arcane, but someone else already pointed out that would not work for Swiftblade, since you would not get the +spell levels with a Divine Class.

I also never used the word "laugh".

While we are here, can I get working definitions of "cheese" and "overrated", I am intent of put both in my guide, so people won't have the same problem.

EDIT: The build is neither a cheese or needing any special rulings. I built it because it was RAW, Powerful, and a Gish.

[Yuukale]

Quick question since I'm a fan of all-things-elven: is the Bladesinger (CW) utter crap or there's any way to salvage it?

[Snowbluff]

Quick question since I'm a fan of all-things-elven: is the Bladesinger (CW) utter crap or there's any way to salvage it?

Elves already get everythign else that's good (Elven Generalist Wizard, Revenant Blade, Eternal Blade), it's ok for this one to suck. I'll try any way.

Well , for starter, you get some of the prereqs for Abjurant Champion and Swift Blade, but you are already losing spellcasting levels, so go with Abj Champ. You also get some Int synergy so go Wizard or Beguiler, Dip Swashbuckler or some other Int synergistic class, and find some really good second level and 1(?) good 4th level spell (arcane thesis it, grab some nice MM). Enervation specialization would work great here, actually. Split Ray, Twin Spell, Empower, some Easy Metamagic, and you get one quicked for free already. Negative levels for the win. If all else fails, you still have the rapier.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Quick question since I'm a fan of all-things-elven: is the Bladesinger (CW) utter crap or there's any way to salvage it?

Back when CW was first printed, it may have been slightly good, just for lack of better options. The better options being Spellsword and/or Rage Mage, topped off with Eldritch Knight. Most builds started out Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard X/ Bladesinger Y. Back then there was no Wraithstrike, Leap Attack, Rhino's Rush, etc., all you really had for Gish damage was Arcane Strike and maybe Power Attack. Bladesinger damage came from Swashbuckler 3 with Arcane Strike and Haste. I think there were actually some TWF builds that used armor spikes for the offhand attack, but your spell slots get used up fast with Arcane Strike and no Focused Specialist.

Now that I look at it again, it's not really even salvageable. You can't two-handed Power Attack with Bladesong Style, and every other class feature it gets can be replaced with a feat, item, or spell these days. Seriously, Song of Celerity is only 1/day, why even bother? CW was printed when WotC still thought casting arcane spells in armor was somehow overpowered, plus various other horribly inaccurate balance assumptions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a#MONK).

[dextercorvia]

No, I meant to use it for getting the Haste spell without taking the Time Domain.

Spelltype Fixing would be getting your spells to count for Arcane, but someone else already pointed out that would not work for Swiftblade, since you would not get the +spell levels with a Divine Class.

I also never used the word "laugh".

While we are here, can I get working definitions of "cheese" and "overrated", I am intent of put both in my guide, so people won't have the same problem.

EDIT: The build is neither a cheese or needing any special rulings. I built it because it was RAW, Powerful, and a Gish.

Using Extra Spell to get Haste isn't RAW unless it is already on your list. I see the problem now. You had an illegal build in mind when you referenced Cleric and Druid. So when I pointed out that it would take extreme cheese to get 9ths on such a build, you thought I was referring to your erroneous tactics, rather than what would actually be necessary. You did laugh, or scoff, or whatever without saying the word. I'm not offended, I merely wanted to set the record straight.

My working definition of cheese (and opinion varies on this) is using any rules interaction that stays RAW legal while violating intent or apparent intent, in order to make a build more powerful. I base the strength of the cheese on the benefit to cost ratio. So, a Duskblade taking a Trapsmith dip to qualify for Swiftblade is Minor cheese. Using Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline Feat to cast a single 9th level spell from that bloodline when you should only be casting 8ths I peg to be Moderate cheese. Using Loredrake and GDRoP on a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with LA buy-off is Strong cheese. Using my Versatile Domain Generalist to cast 9th level spells at 1st level is Extreme Cheese.

For overrated, I would check a dictionary.

[JadePhoenix]

Quick question since I'm a fan of all-things-elven: is the Bladesinger (CW) utter crap or there's any way to salvage it?

It sucks HARD.
The version from Races of Faerun is a lot better, specially if you go into it from Duskblade, since it gives you buff spells (that a Duskblade lacks) and Duskblade has damage spells (that a Bladesinger lacks).
I want to try that someday.

[Snowbluff]

Using Extra Spell to get Haste isn't RAW unless it is already on your list. I see the problem now. You had an illegal build in mind when you referenced Cleric and Druid. So when I pointed out that it would take extreme cheese to get 9ths on such a build, you thought I was referring to your erroneous tactics, rather than what would actually be necessary. You did laugh, or scoff, or whatever without saying the word. I'm not offended, I merely wanted to set the record straight.

My working definition of cheese (and opinion varies on this) is using any rules interaction that stays RAW legal while violating intent or apparent intent, in order to make a build more powerful. I base the strength of the cheese on the benefit to cost ratio. So, a Duskblade taking a Trapsmith dip to qualify for Swiftblade is Minor cheese. Using Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline Feat to cast a single 9th level spell from that bloodline when you should only be casting 8ths I peg to be Moderate cheese. Using Loredrake and GDRoP on a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with LA buy-off is Strong cheese. Using my Versatile Domain Generalist to cast 9th level spells at 1st level is Extreme Cheese.

For overrated, I would check a dictionary.

If i have offended you, I apologize. Oh wat, you weren't offended. Let's clear this up.

Looked at Extra Spell, and it is definitely unclear. It never says it has to be from your class spell list. Is there and errata for CA somewhere I can get this clarified?

Also, Druid and Cleric would still get 9ths with 9 levels in Swiftblade, did I say something to you to make you thing I was trying to do that and the other stuff at the same time. What I meant was "Haste Spell with Extra Spell casting, something like Southern Magician for arcane casting (doesn't work by the way, I took another look at it)".

Also, about the Spell Known/Versatile caster cheese and the Dragon Kobold +1 sorc level "cheese" would only give you similar casting ability to that of a Wizard with similiar levels in the class. I mean, the PrC works regardless, and the cost of Versatile Caster cheese is a) Being a class with a limited spell list (beguiler, warmage, DN), that is also b) not a Wizard. All you are getting for using a spontaneous T3 caster is a preference in how your slots work at the loss of/need for spells and even more feats to make up the spellcasting gaps. The classes don't qualify for early entry anyway, as their BaB is too small, and dipping in Full BaB class would cross the thresh hold on CL.

[JadePhoenix]

Looked at Extra Spell, and it is definitely unclear. It never says it has to be from your class spell list. Is there and errata for CA somewhere I can get this clarified?

Yes, there is. It needs to come from your class spell list.

[Snowbluff]

Yes, there is. It needs to come from your class spell list.

Okay, that feat is now next to worthless. >.>

Well, at least I got you Arcane Disciple. You'd never betray me, right, feat?

...

How come you never answer me, Arcane Disciple? :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Quick question since I'm a fan of all-things-elven: is the Bladesinger (CW) utter crap or there's any way to salvage it?

No. Half Casting is really only salvageable as a 1 level dip if it gives casting on the first level.

[dextercorvia]

Looked at Extra Spell, and it is definitely unclear. It never says it has to be from your class spell list. Is there and errata for CA somewhere I can get this clarified?

It isn't in the errata. It's in the PHB. "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." et al. In order to override the general rule, you need a specific provision which Extra Spell doesn't provide. To see what it would need to say, go check out Expanded Knowledge.


Also, Druid and Cleric would still get 9ths with 9 levels in Swiftblade,

Are you still claiming this?! Give me a build if you are. There are ways, but I don't think they are nearly as straightforward as you are claiming.


Also, about the Spell Known/Versatile caster cheese and the Dragon Kobold +1 sorc level "cheese" would only give you similar casting ability to that of a Wizard with similiar levels in the class. I mean, the PrC works regardless, and the cost of Versatile Caster cheese is a) Being a class with a limited spell list (beguiler, warmage, DN), that is also b) not a Wizard. All you are getting for using a spontaneous T3 caster is a preference in how your slots work at the loss of/need for spells and even more feats to make up the spellcasting gaps. The classes don't qualify for early entry anyway, as their BaB is too small, and dipping in Full BaB class would cross the thresh hold on CL.

Greater Draconic Rite just gives back the one level, and still won't be tolerated at a lot of tables, even though that is its intended use. Loredrake was likely intend for use by Dragons (the kind with LA, RHD, and stunted casting) not Dragonwrought Kobolds, and provides you with 2 levels of casting at no cost to said Dragonwrought Kobold.

Versatile Spellcaster cheese works on plenty of classes that arent Fixed list, if you know what you are doing. Go look up Bloodline feats (Dragon Magazine or Compendium). Now apply one of those and Versatile Spellcaster to a Sorcerer, and he can cast one spell a spell level early. That is minor cheese, like Precocious Apprentice on steroids. Plenty of folks around these forums would kneejerk ban the interaction.

You seem to be saying that early entry, or early ninths isn't cheesy, because if you use it on this base class to enter this PrC, it isnt' as strong as if a Wizard had X. Early entry into Mystic Theurge, might create a balanced end product, but it doesn't change the flavor of the cheese. Will some allow it? Sure. Still cheese. We don't compare rules exploits to a Wizard, and say "Well, the wizard is still more powerful, so it must not be cheese." Likely the wizard can do it too, and better. Something is either cheese or not, based on its own lack of merits, or presence thereof.

[Snowbluff]

You seem to be saying that early entry, or early ninths isn't cheesy, because if you use it on this base class to enter this PrC, it isnt' as strong as if a Wizard had X. Early entry into Mystic Theurge, might create a balanced end product, but it doesn't change the flavor of the cheese. Will some allow it? Sure. Still cheese. We don't compare rules exploits to a Wizard, and say "Well, the wizard is still more powerful, so it must not be cheese." Likely the wizard can do it too, and better. Something is either cheese or not, based on its own lack of merits, or presence thereof.

I'll check extra spell knowledge, thanks. Also, we've been over the Cleric thing, it doesn't work. Just keep in mind prepared casters get 9th level spells if they lose 3 CL.

As for the cheese, we are getting 9ths at significant cost. You have to remember every builds starts on a level playing field, and it's the end result and whether or it accomplishes it's goal. Versatile Spellcaster accomplishes for the T3 casters what Greater Draconic Rite does for the Sorcerer (which makes it scale like a Wizard, hence the example). It lies on the same level as that most of the time, and these classes consume many more feats for greater versatility.

You do make a good point. How much certain RAW rules will be tolerated is important to consider when making a character.

Also, yes. Loredrake is cheesy as all

[dextercorvia]

EDIT: Also, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard entry can all get 9ths without cheese if they won't bother with the tenth level ability. It should be noted for Wizard Capability >>>>>> Capacity regardless.


Spelltype Fixing would be getting your spells to count for Arcane, but someone else already pointed out that would not work for Swiftblade, since you would not get the +spell levels with a Divine Class.


Also, Druid and Cleric would still get 9ths with 9 levels in Swiftblade,


Also, we've been over the Cleric thing, it doesn't work.

Is that your final answer?

[Snowbluff]

Is that your final answer?

Yes. I do not know how to qualify Cleric for the Swiftblade's CL progression. If you weren't quoting me out of context, you would know this. I even said so several times already. :smallannoyed:

[Flynja]

Flaw #1 Empower Spell
Flaw #2 Servant of the Fallen
1 Wizard 1 ... Fighter Bonus Feat Iron Will, Arcane Disciple (Destiny)
2 Wizard 2 ...
3 Wizard 3 ... Arcane Disciple (Luck)
4 Wizard 4 ...
5 Wizard 5 ... Weapon Proficiency (Mercurial Longsword)
6 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 1 ... Bonus Feat Snowcasting, Energy Substitution (Fire)
7 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 2 ...
8 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 3 ...
9 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 4 ... Bonus Feat Extend Spell, Mother Cyst
10 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 5 ...
11 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 6 ...
12 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 7 ... Bonus Feat Persistent Spell, Spell Focus (Evocation)
13 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 8 ...
14 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 9 ...
15 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 9 / Mindbender 1 ... Mindsight
16 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Mindbender 1 ... Bonus Feat Quicken Spell
17 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Mindbender 1 / Loremaster 1 ... Bonus Feat Energy Admixture (Fire)
18 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Mindbender 1 / Loremaster 2 ... Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
19 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Mindbender 1 / Loremaster 2 / Archmage 1 ... High Arcana (Master of Shaping)
20 Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Mindbender 1 / Loremaster 2 / Archmage 2 ... High Arcana (Mastery of Counterspelling)

Okay, so the above is what i've modified the build to, unfortunately my DM says Lyris is not in his campaign as its not a typical Faerunian Pantheon, so I went with Tyrche and had to grab the Servant of the Fallen just to justify being able to use her. I'm waiting on his reply to see if he even lets me use Olin Gisir. This is the most logical thing I could come up with for the moment any critiquing would be useful. Also gotta double check on the first 3 feats posted as I'm not sure he'll allow those methods either.