Countering Hide and Move Silenty

[HMS Invincible]

My nonmagical party members were out alone, and they got ganked by a single "assassin" with hide and move silently, and a couple poisoned arrows. What are the ways to deal with it? Ideally with magical items that are in the MIC or core. I have some items to deal with it, but I've been depending on the fact that attacking usually gives away your position, and our DM is upping the challenge for stealthy monsters.
The scenario is either, he spring attacks, and then moves+hides in plain sight, or during the night, he shoots you from some distance away, probably 30-100 ft.
It's come up several times now, at least 3, and I'm not sure how how to deal with it. Our 2 guys with spot checks were away both times it happened, and even then, his hide>our best spot checks.
PS I don't think mindsight or touchsight is core.

[Strormer]

Well, not a perfect strategy, but my default when the DM made hide stupid strong was the have the caster ready an action to cast something useful on the guy, like faerie fire or to paralyze him or the like. We also would sometimes just cast darkness or deeper darkness to even the playing field and then hope he abandoned his tactics when he couldn't see us to study us. Stealth characters are kinda irritating that way, they are hard to make useful, but once they are then they are damned hard to deal with. There's also spells that neutralize archers so that he has to get close to kill, provided you can still put them in place once he's offed one of you from a distance to reveal his presence.

[Glimbur]

Run. Specifically, if you are getting shot at from an unknown source, move at 4x move away from where you were going. Range penalties hurt, as do the lack of sneak attack from further than 30'.

Then, hire an assassin to kill the assassin. Fighting fair is for dead people, or the soon to be deceased.

[Godskook]

Glitterdust is a fairly good way of dealing with these kinds of people. A -40 on hide checks and canceling invisibility should give you the ability to see them.

You can improve upon this with Widen Spell, but that might be out of your level-range. Perhaps 'innocently' have the party's blaster ask for a Metamagic Rod of Widen. Its not official, but there's enough metamagic rods out there to extrapolate a price.

[jackattack]

For the distance stuff, useful spells (for magic items) include shield, protection from arrows, mirror image, glitterdust, web (possibly better for close-in), fog cloud, and delay poison. If you can get discern location you're golden.

For the close-in stuff, try this from For Your Eyes Only: pistachios. Or sunflower seeds. Scatter something on the floor that will make noise if it is stepped on. The DM should at least assign a penalty to the move silently check.

"Hiding in plain sight" only works in crowds when you don't know who just attacked you. Without a better description of the circumstances, I call "bull" on the DM.

[Godskook]

"Hiding in plain sight" only works in crowds when you don't know who just attacked you. Without a better description of the circumstances, I call "bull" on the DM.

Um, you're not familiar with "Hide in Plain Sight" then.

Some core examples:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#hideinPlainSight
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight

[Seffbasilisk]

It's a move action after sniping. So how is he doing a Spring attack, moving, and then hiding?

Also, wouldn't sniping give him a -20 to his hide check?

+1 to the sunflower seeds, but also try flour for closer ranges.

[ericgrau]

Use a detect spell such as detect magic or detect thoughts to pick up his presence. It's a good scouting tool in general, especially since it penetrates most doors (but not most walls).

Blanket the room with one or more daylight spells to eliminate or severely limit the shadows. He must be within 10 feet of any shadows that remain, so start dropping area spells. Have glitterdust prepared so that when you do find him you can give him a -40 to hide. Also remember he gets a -20 to hide and move silently every time he attacks, so that's a good time to try to find him.

[Greenish]

It's a move action after sniping. So how is he doing a Spring attack, moving, and then hiding?Spring Attack is not sniping. He can hide as a part of the same move action he used to Spring Attack.

[Chronos]

Really, it depends on just how absurdly optimized their stealth skills are. At mid-high levels, you can get a large enough bonus to Hide to snipe even while glitterdusted, if you really put your mind to it. Of course, the DM optimizing the enemies that much probably means that he hates you and is trying to kill you, in which case it won't matter what you do.

[Godskook]

Really, it depends on just how absurdly optimized their stealth skills are. At mid-high levels, you can get a large enough bonus to Hide to snipe even while glitterdusted, if you really put your mind to it. Of course, the DM optimizing the enemies that much probably means that he hates you and is trying to kill you, in which case it won't matter what you do.

Its actually a -60 due to the -20 from Hide. Its kinda hard to beat-out spot checks with a -60 on your check.

[SirFredgar]

Its actually a -60 due to the -20 from Hide. Its kinda hard to beat-out spot checks with a -60 on your check.

If he's sniping, yeah. But as Greenish pointed out he is using spring attack. However, this stragedy means that he is not stealthed after he attacks (and he better be moving at half speed or he takes penalties as well).

Someone pointed out a ready action, and I'm all for this idea. Since he has to show himself to hurt you with spring attack, just ready that glitterdust to neutralize his sealth.

If he -is- going to the sniping route, he will be incredible hard to spot, even with the -20, if he's making smart use of his range. Remember, you get a -1 to spot for every 10 feet. However, if you have access to Wind Wall, you effectivly shut this tractic down.... or has been suggested obscuring mist/darkness. He cannot shoot what he cannot see, and then those distances work against him, as he gets the same penalties to spot/listen that you do for distance.

[ericgrau]

The hide rules also give a -20 when attacking in general, and the hide in plain sight spring attack example in the FAQ confirms it.

In core you can get a +15 to hide, maybe +20 adding 2 feats, and it's very expensive. If the DM is stacking a dozen sources to hit +25 to +60 it's either time for him to tone it down or time to bust out mind sight.

[Godskook]

If he's sniping, yeah. But as Greenish pointed out he is using spring attack. However, this stragedy means that he is not stealthed after he attacks (and he better be moving at half speed or he takes penalties as well).

Well, I suppose he can attack(at a -60 if he wants to stay hidden), then move a short distance to hide again at the lesser penalties(or none), but the attack itself *IS* made at the -60 to hide, and I highly doubt almost anything but a CR = rocks-fall NPC would be able to make it.

[SirFredgar]

The hide rules also give a -20 when attacking in general, and the hide in plain sight spring attack example in the FAQ confirms it.

In core you can get a +15 to hide, maybe +20 adding 2 feats, and it's very expensive. If the DM is stacking a dozen sources to hit +25 to +60 it's either time for him to tone it down or time to bust out mind sight.

I was not aware of these rules. Does it follow sniping in that it takes a move action after the attack to hide?


Well, I suppose he can attack(at a -60 if he wants to stay hidden), then move a short distance to hide again at the lesser penalties(or none), but the attack itself *IS* made at the -60 to hide, and I highly doubt almost anything but a CR = rocks-fall NPC would be able to make it.

Following the logic that it would also take a move action after he attacks to remain hidden with a -20 penalty (I don't know where you are getting -60, as in my scenario we haven't applied glitterdust yet): Would he be able to spring attack this? I know you can move both before and after your action, but if he needs a move action to hide, can he still spend that?

[ericgrau]

I was not aware of these rules. Does it follow sniping in that it takes a move action after the attack to hide?
Hiding is part of a move not a move action by itself. So you could do it while bouncing back from a spring attack. In the step by step FAQ example they had 2 hide checks, one at a -20 while attacking and another regular hide check while bouncing back.

[SirFredgar]

Hiding is part of a move not a move action by itself. So you could do it while bouncing back from a spring attack. In the step by step FAQ example they had 2 hide checks, one at a -20 while attacking and another regular hide check while bouncing back.

Yes, I was aware that hide is part of a move action. My thought was that it was like sniping, where they say you use a move action after attacking to remain hidden at a -20. The FAQ, appearently, follows a different logic in that it is not a move action after the attack. It's simply "I'm hiding, I want to stay hidden, so -20. Oh, I also have a move... free hide at no penalty."

I personally don't like it, and would follow the sniping rules at my table.

But this still means that the stealther would have a -20, and if you spotted him here, he would technically be "observed" and couldn't use the move to hide again unless he moved out of line of sight, or had hide in plain sight.

EDIT: This also made me think: If you are carrying sufficient illumination (To have and area of bright light that prevents hide checks), he shouldn't even be able to hide while performing a melee attack. Where would his cover/concealment come from?

[Chronos]

EDIT: This also made me think: If you are carrying sufficient illumination (To have and area of bright light that prevents hide checks), he shouldn't even be able to hide while performing a melee attack. Where would his cover/concealment come from?Almost all forms of Hide in Plain Sight either remove the need for concealment, provide concealment, or have as a prerequisite some other ability that provides or removes the need for concealment. The only exception is the version from the Dark template. Even with that, though, it's not too hard: Blur (from the spell or a ring), for instance, would do it.

[Godskook]

Following the logic that it would also take a move action after he attacks to remain hidden with a -20 penalty (I don't know where you are getting -60, as in my scenario we haven't applied glitterdust yet): Would he be able to spring attack this? I know you can move both before and after your action, but if he needs a move action to hide, can he still spend that?

I wasn't talking about "your scenario", you were talking about "my scenario"*, and glitterdust was already applied.

*Its actually mentioned in Chronos' post, but I quoted it in the post of mine you were responding to.

[DeAnno]

The MiC in particular has a lot of items in it that hand out large bonuses to Spot, and many of them stack with each other. I'd suggest looking through it and maybe stacking a bunch of these together on one character (perhaps who already has decent spot) to jack it up a ton to the point where he's in the same ballpark as hide specialists. Preferably, the character will have some way to tag hiding people once he sees them, like a wand of glitterdust.

[Gavinfoxx]

Scent is core; just buy some animals. And isn't the blindfold of the utterdark in MIC?

[Curmudgeon]

Scent is core; just buy some animals. And isn't the blindfold of the utterdark in MIC?
I think you mean Blindfold of True Darkness (Magic Item Compendium, page 75). But the answer to all such suggestions is the same: the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness, page 179). Darkstalker forces foes with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense to make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you. So all these extra senses just work on the same rules as normal sight vs. your Hide skill. Darkstalker is pretty much guaranteed for any character who specializes in stealth.

[Gavinfoxx]

That is, if the DM knows about Darkstalker...

OP, have you read this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Scent is core; just buy some animals. And isn't the blindfold of the utterdark in MIC?

Buy a dog, have the party ranged train it to guard you. I knew a GM who complained about the tibbit (werecat) rogue PC always stealthing through major encounters. He finally asked himself, "what is the one thing that can stop a cat?" The answer? A dog.

The next time that rogue was stealing from a mansion, she ran into a guard dog. This drastically changed her tactics.

Since the OP is a wizard, the obvious solution is to have your familiar scout your surroundings. Maybe cast invisibility on the familiar, or craft it an item that grants invisibility with a 30% price discount for only working on Tiny-sized creatures.

Now, the higher-level solution to this problem is blindsight (or its weaker cousin, blindsense.) Blindsense lets you notice any creature you have line of effect to with no need for a Spot check. Blindsight removes the need for line of effect (meaning you can sense them through walls.) You may also be able to solve your problem with tremorsense, which makes you automatically aware any creature in contact with the ground. These are all rather esoteric abilities (you won't find spells for them in the core rules,) but you can talk to your GM about how much it would cost to get magic items for them.

[HMS Invincible]

Let's add some basic information.
Exhibit A.
Rogue X/Shadowdancer X/ + Dark god can recreate him at any time.
Has hide in plain sight of some sort. I'm thinking it's from shadow dancer. He has really high hide and I believe combat goes something like this...
He's hiding as he stalks you. Attacks, then moves, getting sneak attack off, hides as part of his move. The DM said that readying an action to hit him/cast on him when he attacks works if you hit him.
Repeat until party dies, or he backs off. Nemesis of party, blindfold of true darkness + glitterdust usually solves it.
He did do an interesting tactic, he withdrew from battle, and my party members chased him. When they chased him, they lost sight of him. As I follow the party members out the door, he comes from the other side of the door to attack me, since I'm the last one out, and the blindfold doesn't work across things blocking line of sight, aka the door.
He died after that attack, but he comes back regardless, so I thought it was interesting. The detect magic + feat to negate miss chance was working, but the fact that things don't go past 30 feet, or walls is a limiting factor.
Note, blindfold has a range of 30 feet, and you can't see normally.

Exhibit B
Lycanthrope assassin, werewolf.
Came by at night while we were staying in a manor. Shot our cleric through an open window, maybe a sympathizer opened it for the assassin. The arrow was poisoned with werewolf blood, and he got a sneak attack off. We chased him, but nobody could find him. Our best guess is that he was about 30 feet away, near the edge of sneak attack, or maybe he just fired it for the poison effect. Later, he went around killing people for several nights, and nobody ever found him. Eventually he was bought out, and the story arc ended.

Both cases, the attacker is an unknown level, but our party is a group of 7 people with average level of 10.
In addition, the blindfold has a sightrange of 30 feet.

[candycorn]

Well, I suppose he can attack(at a -60 if he wants to stay hidden), then move a short distance to hide again at the lesser penalties(or none), but the attack itself *IS* made at the -60 to hide, and I highly doubt almost anything but a CR = rocks-fall NPC would be able to make it.

It's possible to lower it. Halfling rogue sub levels for example, lower snipe penalties from -20 to -10. A feat can lower it another -4, to -6.

Now it's a -46 to hide.

Halfling, under an augmented Compression, has a +12 size to hide (diminutive). Assume level 10, and 13 ranks hide. Kruthik Claws shaped, for another +4. Skill focus Hide, and stealthy, is another +5. That's a +34, and I'm not really book diving.

A Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm) power puts that to +44.

Elixir of Hiding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#elixirofHiding) gets you up to +54.

If you're invisible, you still get the +20 bonus to hide, which would then push you to +74.

After a -46 penalty, you still have a +28 to hide, averaging a 38 hide roll, at level 10, after sniping while glitterdusted. Assume you did it from 30 feet away, and the spotter gets a -3 penalty, making the effective DC 41.

And I didn't include the halfling's dex bonus (likely 26, after compression, for another +8, effective DC 49).

[Godskook]

It's possible to lower it. Halfling rogue sub levels for example, lower snipe penalties from -20 to -10. A feat can lower it another -4, to -6.

Now it's a -46 to hide.

Halfling, under an augmented Compression, has a +12 size to hide (diminutive). Assume level 10, and 13 ranks hide. Kruthik Claws shaped, for another +4. Skill focus Hide, and stealthy, is another +5. That's a +34, and I'm not really book diving.

A Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm) power puts that to +44.

Elixir of Hiding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#elixirofHiding) gets you up to +54.

If you're invisible, you still get the +20 bonus to hide, which would then push you to +74.

After a -46 penalty, you still have a +28 to hide, averaging a 38 hide roll, at level 10, after sniping while glitterdusted. Assume you did it from 30 feet away, and the spotter gets a -3 penalty, making the effective DC 41.

And I didn't include the halfling's dex bonus (likely 26, after compression, for another +8, effective DC 49).

You're not invisible while glitterdusted, as it explicitly "visibly outlining invisible things". That brings it down to DC 21, which is defeatable by a lucky nat-20 out of almost anyone, and for a trained PC, 13 ranks and an 8 will work.

[candycorn]

You're not invisible while glitterdusted, as it explicitly "visibly outlining invisible things". That brings it down to DC 21, which is defeatable by a lucky nat-20 out of almost anyone, and for a trained PC, 13 ranks and an 8 will work.

It doesn't state that it negates invisibility. It merely outlines you.

Contrast Faerie Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/faerieFire.htm), which states that you don't benefit from concealment normally afforded to invisibility.

Glitterdust does not say that. It states that invisible things are visibly outlined. They're still invisible, however, and no benefit from that spell is explicitly negated. The -40 to hide counters (and then some) the +20 to hide. However, the spell does not state that it negates the +20 to hide, in addition to providing a -40 penalty.

Therefore, it does not. Rules are awesome that way. One thing says you get something, another doesn't take it away, and presto, you get it.

In addition, there are spells that provide +10 insight to hide checks, and ways to push it even farther past that, as well (for example, alter self into a whisper gnome - additonal +4 to hide).

Hide is much more optimizable than spot, by a margin of over 50, even at mid levels. For example. add on bonus essentia feat, and throw 2 essentia into kruthik claws, and now we're up another 4.

The hide bonuses keep piling on, and there's a lot more of them than there are spot bonuses.

[Godskook]

Fine, we'll play semantics. You may be invisible and benefit from it as 'normal', but your outline is plainly visible and does not benefit from the bonus granted to hide, thus, anyone trying to spot 'you' is still not any worse for the minor difference you're trying to argue.

Also, Faerie Fire is quite a different spell with quite a different effect that interacts with a much larger list of spells. There's no comparison or contrast to be had there at all, except that they both defeat invisibility.

[candycorn]

Fine, we'll play semantics. You may be invisible and benefit from it as 'normal', but your outline is plainly visible and does not benefit from the bonus granted to hide, thus, anyone trying to spot 'you' is still not any worse for the minor difference you're trying to argue.

Also, Faerie Fire is quite a different spell with quite a different effect that interacts with a much larger list of spells. There's no comparison or contrast to be had there at all, except that they both defeat invisibility.

Yes, it does. There are varying levels of "outline".


Invisibility
An invisible creature displaces water and leaves a visible, body-shaped “bubble” where the water was displaced. The creature still has concealment (20% miss chance), but not total concealment (50% miss chance).

The bubble's visible (able to be seen) bubble, but the target still has concealment.

Faerie Fire: Visible outline, negates concealment from invisiblity.

Glitterdust: Visible outline, provides a -40 to hide.

Each provides different benefits, despite the fact that ALL provide visible signs at the target's location. Only one negates concealment, and thus, the +20 bonus to hide.

You can try to play semantic all you like. What I've said is true, by the rules. What you've said is not.

Note: A rogue, hiding with a 77 hide is technically visible. It is able to be seen, provided you spot well enough. "Visible" does not mean "anyone automatically sees it". It just means "it is within the realm of possibility for someone to see it".

All it is, is visually detectable. That doesn't mean everyone automatically detects it visually. Just that they CAN.

EDIT: And glitterdust/faerie fire are actually remarkably similar in effect. Both visibly outline the subject. That provides different penalties, which shows that "visible outline" can mean different things. In lieu of a single meaning, that means that we go by the rules. And the rules say that the penalty for being outlined by Glitterdust is a -40 to hide. Not a -40 to hide, and negate other spells that obsure location.

[Anderlith]

Bright lights remove the cover of darkness. A few nets/w foliage in them walled around the campsite will stop most projectiles & stop him from targeting you. (Arrange the nets so that if he catches them on fire you can put them out)

[kulosle]

Where are you guys getting a minus -20 from snipping. I attack with manyshot, then move away using a new hide check with no penalties. I don't know about you guys but that's how I snipe. Or if i'm a high enough level than I attack with while using one of the better invisibility spells. Also hide is more optimizable because it becomes useless later on. It's really only at mid levels that it's amazing.

[candycorn]

Where are you guys getting a minus -20 from snipping. I attack with manyshot, then move away using a new hide check with no penalties. I don't know about you guys but that's how I snipe. Or if i'm a high enough level than I attack with while using one of the better invisibility spells. Also hide is more optimizable because it becomes useless later on. It's really only at mid levels that it's amazing.

That lets you be seen after the shot. If there are ready actions, that is problematic.

Sniping, per the rules, means you are never seen, at any point, and is covered by the sniping rules in the Hide skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm).

[Greenish]

Where are you guys getting a minus -20 from snipping.From the rules about the special action called "sniping". Part of the rules for Hide skill.


Also hide is more optimizable because it becomes useless later on. It's really only at mid levels that it's amazing.Hide never really becomes useless, if you invest in it.

[candycorn]

Hide never really becomes useless, if you invest in it.

This. Many (if not most) monsters simply cannot counter a good hide check.

[Fitz10019]

How about a readied action and an Alchemist's Fire?
[AF burns for 2 rounds]

[Godskook]

Yes, it does. There are varying levels of "outline".



The bubble's visible (able to be seen) bubble, but the target still has concealment.

Yet another case where being visually outlined defeats the 'unspottable' portion of invisibility.


Each provides different benefits, despite the fact that ALL provide visible signs at the target's location. Only one negates concealment, and thus, the +20 bonus to hide.

Concealment grants no bonus to hide. The bonus comes from being 'invisible', which all 3 methods negate.


You can try to play semantic all you like. What I've said is true, by the rules. What you've said is not.

I'm not playing semantics. Visible is visible is visible. You're the one that's chasing down variations in phrasings.


All it is, is visually detectable. That doesn't mean everyone automatically detects it visually. Just that they CAN.

I agree, and as a visually detectable thing, you should no longer benefit from bonuses to Hide that count on being visually undetectable.

[Curmudgeon]

Let's add some basic information.
Exhibit A.
Rogue X/Shadowdancer X/ + Dark god can recreate him at any time.
Has hide in plain sight of some sort. I'm thinking it's from shadow dancer. He has really high hide and I believe combat goes something like this...
He's hiding as he stalks you. Attacks, then moves, getting sneak attack off, hides as part of his move. The DM said that readying an action to hit him/cast on him when he attacks works if you hit him.
Not necessarily. Since the Rogue/Shadowdancer can also try to Hide while attacking (and there's no reason not to try), a readied action can only trigger if the readied character's reactive Spot beats the R/S's Hide with the "while attacking" -20 penalty. If the R/S is already hidden before the attack and has a superior Spot while attacking, they'll never become visually apparent. A readied action has no divination magic; it's just a plan, and uses the character's senses to know when to start.

[HMS Invincible]

Curmudgeon, the rogue attacks using this tactic:
"Where are you guys getting a minus -20 from snipping. I attack with manyshot, then move away using a new hide check with no penalties. "

That lets you be seen after the shot. If there are ready actions, that is problematic.

Sniping, per the rules, means you are never seen, at any point, and is covered by the sniping rules in the Hide skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm).
He's not so specialized in hide that he can attack while hiding. I can deal with a rogue who gets one surprise attack off, but I'm really frustrated when they withdraw scotfree. Originally, they would keep attacking, and they would get killed, but now they are backing off to attack the next day. Really frustrating for me, and it restricts our movements. At some point I was going to just do the forbidden scry and die on them if it happened again. I haven't yet, but I may do it if I can't solve this problem.

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, the rogue attacks using this tactic:
"Where are you guys getting a minus -20 from snipping. I attack with manyshot, then move away using a new hide check with no penalties.
Then what's the big deal? It's just one arrow with sneak attack.
Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage. Now, if the archer also has Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) that's a little different; they've created a build specifically designed around low hit rate/high damage per hit, emphasizing defense over offense. Boosting flat-footed AC is the answer to that, because Manyshot with multiple arrows means the archer's AB will suck. You may rarely see the archer, but at the same time the archer may rarely score a hit.

[SirFredgar]

I wasn't talking about "your scenario", you were talking about "my scenario"*, and glitterdust was already applied.

*Its actually mentioned in Chronos' post, but I quoted it in the post of mine you were responding to.

Sorry if there had been a miscommuncation. I was trying, feebly it seems, to make the point of "how is he glitterdusted if we haven't spotted him yet". Cause I see that as being the first problem with the glitterdust strategy. If strikes from an unknown position, has some effect that gives him concealment in bright light, and you know... doesn't just stand in the same place all night.... how are we getting that debuff on him to begin with?

[ericgrau]

If someone reveals his position with a spring attack or ranged attack and doesn't have both a ludicrously high hide check and movement speed then you can make a pretty good guess where he went after the attack, at least within a 20 foot diameter. Then you drop the glitterdust.

[SirFredgar]

If someone reveals his position with a spring attack or ranged attack and doesn't have both a ludicrously high hide check and movement speed then you can make a pretty good guess where he went after the attack, at least within a 20 foot diameter. Then you drop the glitterdust.

Well, even with a standard movement speed that's only -5 to hide moving back. If he's sneak spring attacking, then he really should be somewhat optimized for stealth, I think. Yes, if he was ten feet away when he springs in and away, assuming he can make that attack at -20, and his hide for movement at a -5... and he can't be more then 20 feet away. What 20 feet though? Which direction did he go? Are you sure that was a melee hit, or some spell/effect at range.

Given the lack of information you have during such a surprise attack, where can you throw down glitterdust at this point in time and are 100% likely to hit.

The problem is even worse with a half-way decent ranged sniper. I had a deepwoods archer who didn't even really need to over-op sealth, just spot. He could see/shoot from rediculous distances (and move with no penalty). Even with average hide/move silently, nothing could hear/see him because of the distance penalty.... how would one glitterdust a sniper at 500 feet away? In an unknown direction.

[HMS Invincible]

Is there an answer on getting his location or how sneaky people are fighting? Do they need spring attack? Can't they just sneak somewhere, hide. Then fire as a standard action, then move?

As for the long range attacker, should we just keep moving so that they can't keep up with us? And then strike back when they are resting? Should we have our rogues stealth into cities while everyone else roams throughout the world to prevent being found?

What I got from reading the posted guide is that it's easier to hide than to see, so couldn't you just hide and then neither of you would see each other?

[SirFredgar]

Is there an answer on getting his location or how sneaky people are fighting? Do they need spring attack? Can't they just sneak somewhere, hide. Then fire as a standard action, then move?

As for the long range attacker, should we just keep moving so that they can't keep up with us? And then strike back when they are resting? Should we have our rogues stealth into cities while everyone else roams throughout the world to prevent being found?

What I got from reading the posted guide is that it's easier to hide than to see, so couldn't you just hide and then neither of you would see each other?

For melee he would need to have some (likely magical) ability to have concealment on open, brightly lit areas. So my first step would be to make sure you guys aren't in shadowy illumination to have to force him to use a poition/magical option to get close. I was thinking about this, and that means he's going to be vulnerable to detect magic... if you can use that to narrow down his location, you can glitterdust him. The numbers would not be in his favor, at that point. However, that does mean he has to basically remain in your 60' foot cone for 3 rounds.

If he is ranged, often any method that blocks line of sight should be good enough to deter repeated attacks. Obscuring mist, of the top of my head, is a great low level option for this. Once you are obscured, you should be able to hide yourselves. Remember, each person takes a -1 to spot for every 10 feet away they are... so It's likely that if it's a ranged sniper (unless they are based on sneak attack) they are dependant on sight, and anything to make this more difficult would be helpful, including hide checks. If you get lucky and can narrow down where the shots are coming from, and walk towards him he should get easier to spot... as an extreme range sniper is likely have optimized spot over hide. But, he'll be getting shots as you approach.

If it's a sneak attack sniper they are likely 30-60 feet away (depending on spells)... a full out run would force them, under most circumstances, to abandon persuit, or take huge penalties to hide in order to stay within effective range.

EDIT: Simple fix for the melee sneak attacker. Arcane Sight should let you know his location instantly, then glitter dust won't be a problem at all. Once you can see him, he shouldn't be so scary... after all, he went Dodge->Mobility->Spring attack and is down three good feats for three arguably "meh" ones.

[Curmudgeon]

For melee he would need to have some (likely magical) ability to have concealment on open, brightly lit areas.
No, not necessarily. All the Supernatural versions of Hide in Plain Sight (like the Shadowdancer and Assassin abiltiies) remove that Hide requirement. As long as there's a single tiny shadow (from a pebble or blade of grass, say) within 10' of where the attacker makes their Hide check, cover/concealment isn't needed. So it's a magical ability removing the need for concealment, rather than magic providing concealment.

[SirFredgar]

No, not necessarily. All the Supernatural versions of Hide in Plain Sight (like the Shadowdancer and Assassin abiltiies) remove that Hide requirement. As long as there's a single tiny shadow (from a pebble or blade of grass, say) within 10' of where the attacker makes their Hide check, cover/concealment isn't needed. So it's a magical ability removing the need for concealment, rather than magic providing concealment.

I was thinking that the 10 foot requirement for those versions of Hide in Plain sight implied they needed to actually go to that shadow in order to hide... they basically just get to make that movement for free as part of the hide check. Meaning they wouldn't be able to close to melee. But, upon closer examination, yeah... they just need to have it within 10 feet and can make a hide check.

However, seeing as a common torch shines bright light in a 20 foot radius, there would still be a point at which even a shadow dancer could not advance to before dropping stealth to deliver a melee attack.... unless they had something else for concealment such a blur spell.

[candycorn]

Yet another case where being visually outlined defeats the 'unspottable' portion of invisibility.



Concealment grants no bonus to hide. The bonus comes from being 'invisible', which all 3 methods negate.



I'm not playing semantics. Visible is visible is visible. You're the one that's chasing down variations in phrasings.



I agree, and as a visually detectable thing, you should no longer benefit from bonuses to Hide that count on being visually undetectable.

Invisible is a status condition that carries inherent benefits.
One of those benefits is: Special

If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

Nothing in the text of Glitterdust explicitly states that it negates the Invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible) status condition, therefore, it does not.

The bonus to hide does not depend on being visually undetectable. It depends on whether or not you have the invisible status condition. If you do, you get it. If you do not, you don't.

You are still visually undetectable, even if a spell effect upon you is not. Therefore, you still gain the bonus. No matter what else anyone says to the contrary.

Even if that person tries to use appeals to common sense to argue otherwise. As we should all be aware by now, the Rules have precisely Jack to do with common sense. They are the Rules, and they obey no logic except their own.

[candycorn]

I was thinking that the 10 foot requirement for those versions of Hide in Plain sight implied they needed to actually go to that shadow in order to hide... they basically just get to make that movement for free as part of the hide check. Meaning they wouldn't be able to close to melee. But, upon closer examination, yeah... they just need to have it within 10 feet and can make a hide check.

However, seeing as a common torch shines bright light in a 20 foot radius, there would still be a point at which even a shadow dancer could not advance to before dropping stealth to deliver a melee attack.... unless they had something else for concealment such a blur spell.

Incorrect. What if they have a Darkness spell, cast upon a stone, in their backpack? It may not emanate past the backpack, but it's always within 10 feet.

[SirFredgar]

Incorrect. What if they have a Darkness spell, cast upon a stone, in their backpack? It may not emanate past the backpack, but it's always within 10 feet.

Interesting work-around. I like it. But by casting a spell on a rock, they then can be detected by detect magic or arcane sight still... allowing a general area for a glitterdust.

One thing I hadn't considered in my previous post was that you, yourself cast a shadow... so the torch still isn't sufficent. You would need at least 30 feet, so a hoodled lantern.


Edit: Ugh, never mind. Magic Aura fixes the detect problem for the stone, anyways. So yeah... if they have shadowdancer/assassin you might not be able to stop them from closing into melee, or even glean enough info to throw down a glitterdust. Unless you wanted to do something silly like make a ready action to drop it on you when you get hit next, but then you risk blindness and possibly an AoO (not sure if you can ready action to cast defensivly... don't see why not. Just gott make that con check.)

[candycorn]

Interesting work-around. I like it. But by casting a spell on a rock, they then can be detected by detect magic or arcane sight still... allowing a general area for a glitterdust.

One thing I hadn't considered in my previous post was that you, yourself cast a shadow... so the torch still isn't sufficent. You would need at least 30 feet, so a hoodled lantern.

Try this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm). Wards the rock, as well as the character.

Throw this on it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm), for good measure.

Alternately, just let the natural darkness in your backpack qualify you.

[SirFredgar]

Try this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm). Wards the rock, as well as the character.

Throw this on it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm), for good measure.

Alternately, just let the natural darkness in your backpack qualify you.

Yeah, I guess that qualifies. Seems kinda abusive, but yeah.

Looks like the only way you can stop a Shadow Dancer from hiding in your shadow and following you around all day stabbing you would be an antimagic field. But that presents it's own problems for you then.

I guess just run, and hope they can't make the hide check at that speed. *shrug* Otherwise I'm not seeing an obivious protection for it other then stack spot and pray you did it better then he has hide.

[HMS Invincible]

Are there no items better than the blindfold? =\ Any spells that I could cast? It's a shame that true seeing doesn't let me see hiding people.

From what I'm reading, I should run until I get into a series of small rooms, and then go hunt them down with a combination of blindsight and arcane sight. Cast glitterdust and go to town.

[candycorn]

Yeah, I guess that qualifies. Seems kinda abusive, but yeah.

Looks like the only way you can stop a Shadow Dancer from hiding in your shadow and following you around all day stabbing you would be an antimagic field. But that presents it's own problems for you then.

I guess just run, and hope they can't make the hide check at that speed. *shrug* Otherwise I'm not seeing an obivious protection for it other then stack spot and pray you did it better then he has hide.

Considering the only real counter to invisibility is glitterdust, and that only works if you have an idea where he's at? Not likely.

Just in core, at level 10:
Halfling, Reduce Person, Greater Invisibility, Skill focus Hide, stealthy, potion of cat's grace bringing dex to 26, and 13 ranks in hide?

You're looking at +50 to hide. Now, snipe from 30 feet away, and you're at a +33 effective hide.

A spotter with 13 ranks and a +8 wisdom (druid with 18 base, +6 item, and +2 from level gain) would have a +21, and would need a 34 to spot (opposed roll, higher modifier wins), for a 13 or better (40% spot chance).

With a higher distance? 110 feet or more, and the druid has no chance to spot, even on a natural 20. Yeah, there's no sneak attack, but you have all day to shoot. Even if you have to hide while running to keep up, you still can't be seen, as long as you stay 120 feet away.

[candycorn]

Are there no items better than the blindfold? =\ Any spells that I could cast? It's a shame that true seeing doesn't let me see hiding people.

From what I'm reading, I should run until I get into a series of small rooms, and then go hunt them down with a combination of blindsight and arcane sight. Cast glitterdust and go to town.

This is a good idea. Using small rooms and short range blindsight is good. Also, try to capture him alive, that way he doesn't just respawn.

[SirFredgar]

Considering the only real counter to invisibility is glitterdust, and that only works if you have an idea where he's at? Not likely.

Just in core, at level 10:
Halfling, Reduce Person, Greater Invisibility, Skill focus Hide, stealthy, potion of cat's grace bringing dex to 26, and 13 ranks in hide?

You're looking at +50 to hide. Now, snipe from 30 feet away, and you're at a +33 effective hide.

A spotter with 13 ranks and a +8 wisdom (druid with 18 base, +6 item, and +2 from level gain) would have a +21, and would need a 34 to spot (opposed roll, higher modifier wins), for a 13 or better (40% spot chance).

With a higher distance? 110 feet or more, and the druid has no chance to spot, even on a natural 20. Yeah, there's no sneak attack, but you have all day to shoot. Even if you have to hide while running to keep up, you still can't be seen, as long as you stay 120 feet away.

With all that hide Optimization, how is that halflings spot looking? That distance works against him too if he wanted to stay that far back. Also, that halfling needs yet additional magical means/resources to keep up, as he is moving at 20' not thirty.

The greater invisibility is negated by a simple see invisibility, so that +20 moot with a second level spell.

Edit: A friend just rreally brought up a clever way to apply Glitterdust. Flour. If the opponent is harassing you at melee, throw some flour on the ground. Ready action glitterdust. Visible opponent.

[candycorn]

With all that hide Optimization, how is that halflings spot looking? That distance works against him too if he wanted to stay that far back. Also, that halfling needs yet additional magical means/resources to keep up, as he is moving at 20' not thirty.

The greater invisibility is negated by a simple see invisibility, so that +20 moot with a second level spell.

Edit: A friend just rreally brought up a clever way to apply Glitterdust. Flour. If the opponent is harassing you at melee, throw some flour on the ground. Ready action glitterdust. Visible opponent.

Halfling's spot would be modest, perhaps +10-15, enough to see things that aren't hiding, or not hiding well. 13 ranks, at the very least. He's likely dealing in classes that get healthy skill points.

See invisibility is also Personal only, so no putting it on the druid. Likely wizard might have a +7 to spot, which means the chance of seeing is much lower.

Flour is a good idea, if a bit messy, for most places... Unless your sniper takes to the air.

[SirFredgar]

Halfling's spot would be modest, perhaps +10-15, enough to see things that aren't hiding, or not hiding well. 13 ranks, at the very least. He's likely dealing in classes that get healthy skill points.

See invisibility is also Personal only, so no putting it on the druid. Likely wizard might have a +7 to spot, which means the chance of seeing is much lower.

Flour is a good idea, if a bit messy, for most places... Unless your sniper takes to the air.

Yeah. This is a very good point. It also means, if we're taking the Fly spell, that he can more effectively keep up. 60' move speed vs a normal 30 means that even if you run away at x4 (unless for some odd reason you have the Run feat), that he just needs a double move to keep up (only a -5 to hide now).

However, my standard strategy for dealing with extreme range would be to hide. even with a modest dex if you can obscure yourself long enough to hide, those range penalties are now working for you. At 110 feet, for example, that's a -11 to his spot check. If you manage a half-way decent hide (let's say you got average) with even a +2 dex, that's a dc 12 to hide vs his +0 to +5. With a better dex and even light investment in hide, he's lost you.

However, without some method for actually escaping, it becomes a waiting game. And unfortunately, with his hide modifiers, he has the option of coming down to look for you while still being able to remain hidden himself. That's why I always have a gtfo option.

Edit: Potion of see invisibility for Mr druid. If he's invested so much in scouting, I don't know why he wouldn't have some option for overcoming invisibility.

[candycorn]

Edit: Potion of see invisibility for Mr druid. If he's invested so much in scouting, I don't know why he wouldn't have some option for overcoming invisibility.

Potions have the drinker as the target. Thus, non-targeted spells are generally not available for potion. If we're looking outside core, there's options (blindsight, for example), but in Core, druids have a hard time dealing with invisibility. Animal companion with scent would be the best of a list of bad options, and that wouldn't work at long range.

Hiding is a viable strategy, but now you've been run to ground. Since you need to use cover or concealment to hide, that makes things harder on you.

Druid's Summon swarm could possibly ferret out a hiding enemy, as could summon nature's ally 4, for a Xorn.

The first real option, though, is true seeing, which is a level 7 spell for Druids.

Outside core, there's Blindsight, but outside core, there's darkstalker.

[HMS Invincible]

Stop being silly. Trueseeing does not negate the hide skill. I don't have a problem with invisible people, I have a problem with people hiding.

[SirFredgar]

Stop being silly. Trueseeing does not negate the hide skill. I don't have a problem with invisible people, I have a problem with people hiding.

The problem is: If your DM wants this guy to be super stealthy, he very likely could be giving him invisibility, as this nets him a +20 to his hide skill. So you might want to have a way to counter it, to make his hide skill a little less beefy.

[HMS Invincible]

Is there a spell like Fairy Fire, but for wizards or clerics? And, what book is fairy fire in? Negating invisibility, so that glitter dust just rapes their hide check would be nice.

[Gavinfoxx]

Things which can defeat or otherwise counter invisibility:

-Visible Clutter in the areas where characters would walk or fly
-Swarms
-Area of effect spells (fireball and such)
-Area of effect alchemical substances
-Fairy Fire
-Torch Bug Paste
-Scent
-Glitterdust
-Dawnburst
-Invisibility Purge
-See Invisible
-Flour bombs or dust bombs or other such things
-Arcane Sight
-Detect Magic
-Detect Invisibility
-True Seeing
-Blindsight
-Blindsense
-Mindsight
-Lifesense
-Touchsight
-Scent
-Tremorsense
-A very high listen score can pinpoint invisible creatures
-Spot can actually be used to see invisible
-There is a skill trick which can help spot see invisible
-Large numbers of enemies with nets
-Any sort of light fog or water or snow or whatever which can show movement in the substance could defeat invisibility.
-Cast light on some glue or tar or something in a method that is throwable as a splash weapon, and throw it: the light will stay in the glue, and it will stick to whatever it hits, even something invisible (this is a jury rigged version of Torch Bug Paste).