Sauron & Lady Galadriel Build

[MysticMind]

So what's with those two ? Sauron is a badass villain and Galadriel is a super pure good guy. What's your idea on how to make a char like them ?

For Sauron : Cleric of Hextor ?

For Galadriel : Druid, Cleric or Wizard ?

[Yora]

I'd say Sauron should probably be a demigod. Cleric levels seem quite appropriate.

Galadriel could quite likely be a half-celestial elf. And I think druid works best. Or a multiclass druid/sorcerer, maybe with Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Sauron, Either a High Level Cleric (no deity, he worships himself) also Death and Destruction, not just what he causes but domains as well, :P

Also Galadriel, Arcane Hierophant for the logic of her being an elf(Lady of the Golden Wood), as far as Celestial, maybe not. Only thing is Druid require you to be Neutral on one access, so Neutral Good would be as good as she could get in that case.
If you ignore the elf=nature bit and make her a Mystic Theurge you could play up the "Lady of the Light" angle and she could be as LG as you want her.

[fryplink]

I'm not sure, but I think lady Galadriel was a bit more than just "elf". While she wasn't straight Angel like Gandalf is, she was a bit more Angel than Legolas, although it might of been induced by her Ring of Light (I can't remember what it is called).

I know half Celestial was mentioned? is there an acquired template you could use?

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not sure, but I think lady Galadriel was a bit more than just "elf". While she wasn't straight Angel like Gandalf is, she was a bit more Angel than Legolas, although it might of been induced by her Ring of Light (I can't remember what it is called).

I know half Celestial was mentioned? is there an acquired template you could use?
No, she was an elf. She was one of the Exile nobility, had looked on the light of the Two Trees, and was Melian's special pupil in Doriath during the First Age. The ring you're thinking of is the Ring of Adamant, which among other powers stopped time within the Golden Wood (though when one leaves time has passed in the outside world) and gave Galadriel herself Mind Blank. All this makes her a fair bit more powerful than just about any elf remaining in Middle Earth by the beginning of the War of the Ring, but she remains an elf nontheless.

I would have few compunctions about making the Exiles some version of planetouched elf, though the only such creature I can find is the Celadrin, but half-celestial should be reserved for Luthien and her line alone (notwithstanding the general crappiness of the template...or am I thinking of Celestial creature?).

As for Sauron, Erinyes with fifteen cleric levels (no clue on domains. There are many that would fit thematically, but not by the spells they grant) fits the bill.

[MysticMind]

Well, she looks kind of something like Druid/Cleric or Sorcerer/Druid/Cleric, so i guess all of ur ideas:smallbiggrin: are right . As regards Sauron, i think that Storm of Vengeance just fits him !! I also don't think that he should be Demigod while Galadriel is not. Galadriel is more powerful than Sauron, in an extremely uncontrollable manner,so that's why she doesn't fight or take the One Ring (remember the scene from the first movie that she went nuts while she was speaking to frodo :smalltongue:) Though i am not 100% sure.

[Telonius]

D&D is really not a very good system to model Tolkien characters. But let's have an overview of Sauron's powers.

- Decently good at melee combat ("decently" by the standards of fights vs epic- or near-epic level combatants). Proficiency in warhammers and heavy armor.

- Racial abilities roughly equal to Gandalf's and Saruman's (all three were technically Maiar).

- Brilliant craftsman. Assisted in crafting all of the Rings except the Elven-Rings.

- Prior to the Downfall of Numenor, he was able to change shapes, turning into (at least) a giant werewolf and a vampire

- Undetectable Alignment that will work against gods.

- Extraordinary willpower. Able to overwhelm the personality of anyone he puts his mind to. Single-handedly caused the Downfall of Numenor with nothing more than his voice and a spellbound audience.

- Worships a deity (Melkor/Morgoth) that's been cast out into the void. (Sounds like a Vestige? Hmmm...) Silmarillion stated that he led Numenor into making human sacrifices to him.

- His "magic" is extremely subtle, not really relying on big flashy stuff or divine smiting, but on dominating people's minds.

- Has what's probably the most famous example of an Item Familiar in all of literature.

- Likely Lawful alignment. He wants to rule the world, not destroy it.


I agree with zimmerwald about Erinyes for the race. It seems like the abilities match up best with his personality. On top of that, Binder20/Psion5/Thrallherd10.

[MysticMind]

Really nice idea ! Now let's have an overview at Galadriel :

-Sucks at melee combat (No armor and no weapon)

-Spellcaster of Immense power(able to contact minds even at a huge distance, just like she did with frodo outside minas morgul), many divinations as well

- Brilliant craftsman, as well. She created many potions including pure water and something like a ''radiant potion''


- A paladins aura of good, because anyone that is close to her feels awe.(a detect good spell would stun the caster immediately cause of this power)

- Power beyond mortal imagination (She should be able to have at least 3 salient divine abilities, although shes not a deity)


- Likely Neutral Good alignment

So my guess is like Favored Soul 25/Sorcerer 20/Druid 15 (she's not that much addicted to nature)

And as regards her race that would be High Elf, if not Ghaele Eladrin

[zimmerwald1915]

- His "magic" is extremely subtle, not really relying on big flashy stuff or divine smiting, but on dominating people's minds.
There are exceptions to this, such as his duel with Finrod and his facing down the storm of the Valar in Numenor. But generally Sauron doesn't tend towards big displays of power.


On top of that, Binder20/Psion5/Thrallherd10.
He also has the ability to control weather, which is why I suggested fifteen levels of Cleric. If a binder, psion, and/or thrallherd can call down storms, then waive this objection.

EDIT: oh, Galadriel is not more powerful than Sauron, at least, not without the Ring. Sauron just hasn't yet managed to penetrate Nenya's Mind Blank effect.

[Telonius]

I wouldn't stat her nearly that high. She is in no way a rival to Sauron's power, and she is nowhere near powerful enough to get a salient divine ability..

She is an extremely old, very noble elf, who studied under Melian (who was basically the same level power as Gandalf). Her reputation is of a sorceress, which means something very different in Tolkien's world than in standard D&D.

Celestial Mystic sounds more like her style.

[Alleran]

EDIT: oh, Galadriel is not more powerful than Sauron, at least, not without the Ring. Sauron just hasn't yet managed to penetrate Nenya's Mind Blank effect.
IIRC, when Sauron first put on the One Ring, the Elven Bearers of the Three immediately sensed it and took their Rings off, which prevented Sauron from gaining control over them in any way. Later on, when Sauron had lost the One Ring, they were wearing them again.

To me, that would speak more to a specific power of the One Ring (and Three Rings) itself, as opposed to a power possessed by one of the bearers. Actually, I can't really recall any specific power being attributed to Nenya. I recall Narya being able to "kindle fire in hearts that have lost it" (or something to that effect), and Vilya being the mightiest of the Three Rings, but not much more than that offhand.

[zimmerwald1915]

IIRC, when Sauron first put on the One Ring, the Elven Bearers of the Three immediately sensed it and took their Rings off, which prevented Sauron from gaining control over them in any way. Later on, when Sauron had lost the One Ring, they were wearing them again.
None of this has any bearing on the power of Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan as against Sauron.


To me, that would speak more to a specific power of the One Ring (and Three Rings) itself, as opposed to a power possessed by one of the bearers. Actually, I can't really recall any specific power being attributed to Nenya. I recall Narya being able to "kindle fire in hearts that have lost it" (or something to that effect), and Vilya being the mightiest of the Three Rings, but not much more than that offhand.
All the Three were able to create miniature versions of Valinor, and to sustain them as long as their bearers wore them and their wills endured. Only Vilya and Nenya were actually put to that use during the War of the Ring; we never see the Grey Havens when Cirdan wore Narya. Nenya specifically was implied to shield Galadriel's mind against Sauron's probing.

[Telonius]

Nenya's general shtick is preservation. The ring itself is named "adamant" - unchanging. Lothlorien is supposed to be a preserved echo of the First Age, when the Elves were strong. Like most of Tolkien's magic, it's subtle, not flashy.

His entire world was made through Music; Words of Creation sorts of effects. I really wish Truenaming didn't suck so badly, or it might be useful to make a more Tolkien-themed caster. Between Incarnum and Bardic Music, you could probably come the closest thing to modeling most Tolkien magic in D&D.

[olthar]

- A paladins aura of good, because anyone that is close to her feels awe.(a detect good spell would stun the caster immediately cause of this power)

- Likely Neutral Good alignment

I don't know if she qualifies as good. She is specifically mentioned during the kinslaying as someone who wants to return to middle earth to rule over the people there. Given the context, that doesn't sound like a good desire. Yes, she spends the next age or so studying under Melian in Doriath rather than actually ruling, but alignment is about both thoughts and actions and her thoughts betray her as not good. Further, she was the only elf not pardoned for the kinslaying after the war of wrath and it wasn't until she rejected Frodo's offer of the one ring that the Valar forbade her transgression and allowed her to return to Valinor.

As has been mentioned, she specifically didn't wear the her ring while Sauron had the one ring, so if anything it is evidence of her being weaker than Sauron. Given that Finrod lost to Sauron in his duel and she was likely weaker than her elder brother (Finrod) she would have lost in a straight up fight to Sauron. The reason for Finrod's loss, the kinslaying, was something she specifically was not forgiven of until very late. Essentially, she was the strongest elf who remained in middle earth after the war of wrath mostly because she was one of a handful of Calaquendi who remained.

Sauron was the strongest of the Maiar (same level of angel as gandalf, but higher within it). He learned from Morgoth (strongest of the Valar, which would be demigods) to spread his power around. Unlike Morgoth, who created creatures like the orcs, Ungoliant, and the Dragons, Sauron created the ring. The ring amplified his power while he had it but greatly diminished it when he didn't. Besides seduction or domination type power, Sauron did evidence shapeshifting (though that didn't go so well for him) and some more flashy type of magic. More importantly, Sauron apprenticed under the Valar Alue (who Feanor also worked under) learning how things work and how to make things (e.g. rings). Also, Sauron had a knack for knowing when to leave a losing battle surviving Melkor's defeat by the Valar twice and really only having to deal with the consequences of his actions when Illuvatar (god) stepped in and crushed Numenor

I don't see why Sauron should be a cleric. His powers seem much more in line with stuff wizards or artificers do (enchanting items, shapeshifting, etc.).

I do agree with Galadriel as a druid though (just a neutral one). While she had her ring she made a pale imitation of Valinor in her wood and kept the wood safe from all. Galadriel should be epic. The idea of her fighting a demigod shouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. But she needs a party of epic friends to do anything more than annoy him for a few minutes.

[Alleran]

None of this has any bearing on the power of Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan as against Sauron.
Other than that while Sauron didn't have the One Ring, they were able to wear the Three and utilise their power. And that the One Ring was a risk that caused them to remove the Rings rather than trust in their power to "deflect" Sauron with the One.


Nenya specifically was implied to shield Galadriel's mind against Sauron's probing.
Do you know when that was said? I've wondered what specific power Nenya had for a while.

[hamishspence]

"A desire to rule over people" may be a flaw- but not necessarily enough of a one to move her out of Good alignment.

Tolkien's late writings on Galadriel tend to play up her goodness and play down her desire for power.

Unfinished Tales is the best source of information here- and has details that aren't present in The Silmarillion- as well as emphasing that she could have returned after the end of the First Age, but chose not to.

p297-298 Unfinished Tales: History of Galadriel & Celeborn

She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all of the descendants of Finwe save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin dearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelled the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget. From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and on her own.

So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile, she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defense of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with a desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came into her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever.

A much later account, set down in the last month of Tolkien's life, is described on pages 299-300 of the same book:


In this he emphasised the commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor, the equal if unlike in endowments of Feanor; and it is said here that far from joining in Feanor's revolt she was utterly opposed to him. She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world for the exercise of her talents; for "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar", and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman. This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, known to Manwe, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. Pondering what she might do, Galadriel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mothers kindred in Alqualonde. There she met Celeborn, who is here a grandson of Olwe of Alqualonde and thus her close kinsman. Together they planned to build a ship and sail in it to Middle-earth; and they were about to seek leave from the Valar for their venture when Melkor fled from Valmar and returning with Ungoliant destroyed the light of the Trees.

In Feanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeed, she with Celeborn fought heroically in defense of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them. Galadriel, despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Feanor, set sail into the darkness without Manwe's leave, which would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return. But together with Celeborn she reached Middle-earth somewhat sooner than Feanor, and they sailed into the haven where Cirdan was lord. There they were welcomed with joy, as being of the kin of Elwe (Thingol).

In the years after they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward (whence they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement), befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age, and when they received permission from the Valar to return into the West they rejected it.

Another text discussing her activities in the Second Age (page 302 to 310) provides reasons for not going West to Valinor:

For love of Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there) she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador.

One of the two versions of the Elessar story (the Elessar being the stone she gave to Aragorn, which he takes his name as King from) also has a degree of pride in her decision to stay in Middle-earth, in a conversation with Celebrimbor, future maker of the other Rings of Power:

"Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mighter."

[Yora]

In Middle-Earth, we are in a world where high birth commits someone to fullfill a god-given duty to rule. And you can't get much more higher in birth than Galadriel. I think she's first generation offspring of the originally created elven kings.

[hamishspence]

Second generation- her father was Finarfin- his father was Finwe, one of the three elven kings who first went to Valinor, then came back and led the tribes there.


Though one of those kings- Elwe- fell in love with a Maia and stayed in Middle-earth, as Thingol, and his brother Olwe led the tribe, in his place.

[Runestar]

Honestly, I would just peg Galadriel as a LG elf diviner. :smalltongue:

[Zonugal]

Why are these characters having so many levels when the LOTR world is fairly low-level by comparison?

[Socratov]

simple: they broke the WBL :smallbiggrin: and got/made über artefacts... BTW, Sauron was a lesser Deity to begin with...

[Eldan]

Why are these characters having so many levels when the LOTR world is fairly low-level by comparison?

Because the D&D notion of levels pretty much breaks down here. The Silmarillion is written as a myth, capabilities are nebulous.

Can Galadriel grab a sword and slay an army of orcs? We simply don't know. Some elves did things like that. As has been mentioned, in Tolkien's world, power is proportional to age (in earlier Ages, everything was better and more powerful) and birth. Everyone who accomplishes everything is a noble of some kind.

Galadriel is a third generation elf. Her grandfather was one of the first elves, and their king. Similar on her mother's side.

But Tolkien's magic also very much doesn't follow D&D rules. You can project your will to talk to someone on the other side of the continent, but it's very unlikely that you can shoot lightning (unless you are gandalf). Morgoth fought with a hammer that left craters in the earth and sundered mountains, yet an elf fought and wounded him. Another elf fought him exclusively through song, and they were evenly matched for a while.

So, what level are the earliest elves? They fought demigods and demons. Armies of them, sometimes single-handedly. They made artefacts. But what kind of demons? How strong is a Balrog? Again, we don't know. How good are those artefacts? The silmaril were mainly shiny gems with many nebulous added benefits.


To come back to the beginning: I don't think LotR is a low-level world at all. Just that all the magic is subtle. Elven wizards don't summon forth demons and rain fire from the sky. But they see the future and the past, talk to each other across thousands of miles and can stop the passage of time in an entire forest. Artificers don't make wands of lightning bolt. They make magic swords that have no obvious effects other than being very good swords and maybe lighting up if orcs are around.

[Zonugal]

I just don't see why in a world with level six heroes the high & mighty beings have to be level 45+.

They could be level 20 and still be terrifyingly powerful in relation to those in the setting.

[Telonius]

I just don't see why in a world with level six heroes the high & mighty beings have to be level 45+.

They could be level 20 and still be terrifyingly powerful in relation to those in the setting.

Sauron needs to be able to make extremely high Bluff and Diplomacy checks, without spells or items, using only charisma plus feats and skill ranks. I think it's pretty fair to say that everyone in Numenor started out as Hostile to him. A very high level to give the massive amount of skill ranks needed, is the only way I can think of to justify him being able to turn most of the island against the Valar. At absolute minimum, he would need a diplomacy of +30, in a build not (up to that point) optimized for diplomancing. Charisma of 20, per normal Erinyes; +6 from synergy, would mean he'd need at least +19 from skills. Even that would require him to roll a 20 on the actual check. So just from that, he's a minimum of 16th level (assuming a class with Diplomacy as a class skill) on top of 9 racial hitdice from Erinyes.

Even aside from that, just to be able to Forge a Ring, he has to be a 12th-level caster. Erinyes plus 12 caster levels already puts him at 21 hitdice.

EDIT: And if we're assuming he took the Item Familiar feat, he'd have to have the Ring in his possession before he took the feat. That pushes him back to level 15 before he can make the Ring an item familiar.

[Eldan]

I just don't see why in a world with level six heroes the high & mighty beings have to be level 45+.

They could be level 20 and still be terrifyingly powerful in relation to those in the setting.

Why do you think they are level 6? Can a level six take out dozens of Uruk-Hai? Remember, we don't know how strong Uruk-Hai are compared to humans. Can Level 6 spellcasters die and be reborn? Weave a shield that holds off a balrog? Can they stab the Witch King to death in one hit?

Quite simply: we can't really judge what level anyone is. We don't have much of a comparison.


And, as said above, the high beings pull of very impressive stunts. Sauron can shapeshift into a vampire and a werewolf. In fact, Sire of Werewolves is one of his titles. He can diguise his nature and shape from an entire nation of elves and dwarves, some of which might well have seen him or heard of him before. He corrupted a nation of Numenoreans who, as you might recall, are far mightier in just about every way than normal humans. He forged the ring. He could be killed and come back, repeatedly.

[Zonugal]

Sauron needs to be able to make extremely high Bluff and Diplomacy checks, without spells or items, using only charisma plus feats and skill ranks. I think it's pretty fair to say that everyone in Numenor started out as Hostile to him. A very high level to give the massive amount of skill ranks needed, is the only way I can think of to justify him being able to turn most of the island against the Valar. At absolute minimum, he would need a diplomacy of +30, in a build not (up to that point) optimized for diplomancing. Charisma of 20, per normal Erinyes; +6 from synergy, would mean he'd need at least +19 from skills. Even that would require him to roll a 20 on the actual check. So just from that, he's a minimum of 16th level (assuming a class with Diplomacy as a class skill) on top of 9 racial hitdice from Erinyes.

Even aside from that, just to be able to Forge a Ring, he has to be a 12th-level caster. Erinyes plus 12 caster levels already puts him at 21 hitdice.

EDIT: And if we're assuming he took the Item Familiar feat, he'd have to have the Ring in his possession before he took the feat. That pushes him back to level 15 before he can make the Ring an item familiar.

Guidance of the Avatar.

Wow, that was pretty easy...

Everything you have demonstrated can be achieved by a 20th level caster. It isn't that these principal characters are super powerful, its just that casters are practically demi-gods in their own respect once they hit such high levels.


Why do you think they are level 6? Can a level six take out dozens of Uruk-Hai? Remember, we don't know how strong Uruk-Hai are compared to humans. Can Level 6 spellcasters die and be reborn? Weave a shield that holds off a balrog? Can they stab the Witch King to death in one hit?

Quite simply: we can't really judge what level anyone is. We don't have much of a comparison.

I picked sixth level because it is a fair point to approximate the mortal characters within the narrative. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimili are powerful but aren't exactly tremendous. They are given trouble with a cave troll and a water squid monster. Sixth level puts each of them able to fight off six CR 1/2 monsters (perhaps Water Orc Warriors) each during an encounter, according to a CR calculator.

And Gandalf? Well yeah he is going to be higher level but he's practically a Solar so...

[Telonius]

Guidance of the Avatar.

Wow, that was pretty easy...

Okay, I'll amend my statement: "he only way I can think of, aside from spells that would have never passed an actual playtest and are about as cheesy as dust of sneezing and choking, to justify him being able to turn most of the island against the Valar."

Though that does assume Cleric spellcasting, which is not something I really see Sauron as being big on. If he is, he's a Cleric of a Cause (and not a deity); Morgoth is in no position to grant spells. It's Morgoth's position as basically a Vestige that makes me want to put him as a Binder, not a Cleric.

[Ossian]

Just tossing my 2 chips here.

Galadriel is an elf, a noldo of old, easily thousands of years old. Her power lies in both her blood, and in her wisdom. Having learnt from the Valar and from the greatest of elves, and lived through many ages of the world, puts her in a very hard to define area in terms of levels. D&D characters of high level enough become automatically able to pull stunts that would not be that easy in Middle Earth. She was also respected among the noldo of old (no small thing in itself) for her athletic ability, her courage and let us not forget that she managed to survive the crossing of the ice of helcaraxe.

This being said, I cannot imagine Galadriel shooting fireballs, or slaughtering 50 orcs, just because she is level 40 (even a level 40 Wizard would make a crazy good fighter, without even using the spells).

I can see Galadriel as a High Elf, starting a Elf Paragon (three levels, swap +1 Wizard with +1 Bard) with some LA because the Noldor are just plain better and their ability rolls would reflect that.

Her stay in Valinor, combined with her origins (first among the first born, so in her blood courses the energy of the young Arda) can easily be rendered with a Strong Bloodline (I am thinking Celestial, it has all the Noldo bonuses).

She would keep getting levels, moving to Bard, because that is what powerful noldor do all the time: they wave songs of power. Songs of creation, songs of healing, songs of fortification, songs of divination, you name it. That s what they re all about. Also, they re pretty dandy singers (also a bard thing). So, Elf Paragon-Bard

For her years in the Doriath, under the tutelage of Melian, she could either keep going Bard (invests a lot in Divination, but also in HEaling and buffs) and then perhaps Expert or even better Loremaster.

Come the 2nd Age, and the days of Ost In Edhil (and the forging of the Rings) you can see her going Paladin, aura and divine grace and all of that, also due to the simple might that her millennia of age start exuding. She takes up an active role in the White Council, and storms Dol Guldur with an all-stars task force (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Celeborn). Becoming a ring bearer seals it for good.

So, to recap, an Elf-Paragon 3 / Bard 7 / Loremaster 5 / Paladin 6 + Strong Celestial Bloodline.

That leaves her in the lower epic levels, powerful and wise beyond imagination, but not necessarily able to breeze through a band of war trolls. She can heal, she can inspire all sorts and degrees of awe and greatness, she can create illusions etc...

The Ring is possibly an artifact level amplifier of all of her powers.

Ossian.

[olthar]

Tolkien's late writings on Galadriel tend to play up her goodness and play down her desire for power.
The problem with much of the unfinished tales is that they are unfinished. I know there are debates about what Christopher put in the Silmarillion and what he didn't but I've always sat on the side of "he had the most possible knowledge because beyond just the written stuff, he actively corresponded with his father about the world." In what is published, it is relatively clear that Celeborn is one of Thingol's kin, which implies that he is one of the moriquendi and makes the latter story of Galadriel's relationship a contradiction.

Either way though, all 3 stories don't quite say she was awesome and great. Yes, she opposed Feanor (which was known as she famously refused Feanor's request of her hair, which was what made Gimli's request and her granting of it so important), but she didn't have pure desires either. Maybe she went to oppose Feanor and rule in her own right. It's difficult to tell because he pretty much died right away. Either way, doing the right thing for selfish reasons is still more neutral than good.

As for the lv 6 world comment.
D&D doesn't translate to the real world and as odd as this sounds, Tolkien was stuck with a real world of sorts. There's a discussion in the 1e/other system forum about the concept of hit points. Tolkien never had that concept when he wrote. For him an arrow to the throat killed you. In D&D an arrow to the throat does 1d6 hp damage, which is nothing to a high level character. If you are stuck with the idea that any luck shot could kill your superpowered guy, then unsurprisingly he isn't going to charge the armies of Mordor alone and he'll fight conservatively against a dangerous thing like a troll while there are lots of orcish archers around.

That supposition also comes with the idea that a troll has a low cr. Maybe in Tolkien's world trolls are really powerful creatures and being able to kill one is a mark of greatness. It is specifically mentioned as a great feat that Pippin did exactly that. The troll's relative weakness in D&D is mostly because it was in 1e, which kind of plateaued at level 9. Since it wasn't a dragon or a demon, it wasn't so amazingly powerful there that it was beyond any hope of killing, and when they added levels they didn't adjust trolls.

[Eldan]

D&D doesn't translate to the real world and as odd as this sounds, Tolkien was stuck with a real world of sorts. There's a discussion in the 1e/other system forum about the concept of hit points. Tolkien never had that concept when he wrote. For him an arrow to the throat killed you. In D&D an arrow to the throat does 1d6 hp damage, which is nothing to a high level character. If you are stuck with the idea that any luck shot could kill your superpowered guy, then unsurprisingly he isn't going to charge the armies of Mordor alone and he'll fight conservatively against a dangerous thing like a troll while there are lots of orcish archers around. .

This is quite a tangent, but I just want to say that this is, to me, going about it the wrong way. If the arrow did 1d6 damage and he hero survives, it didn't hit the throat. D&D is much more logical if you roll the damage first, then describe the effect. Saying "You are hit by three arrows in the throat, you now only have 235 HP left!" is weird. "Three arrows stick in your chainmail ,the weight is slowing you down, you only have 235 HP" makes a lot more sense.

In that way, taking it as luck and fatigue and maybe Destiny, it translates quite well to Tolkien. Fatigue comes up quite a bit, powerful people do not tire easily. Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas can run for days, as can the Uruk-Hai. And Destiny, well, Tolkien loved that. Aragorn is a king, so he won't be killed by an arrow in the chest. Only someone powerful can kill someone else equally powerful. (really: pretty much every death in the SIlmarillion comes down to hero duel, unless someone massively disgraced themselves and lost their destiny and power).

[Aotrs Commander]

Rolemaster was much better for LotR as a system for stating it out... Rolemaster magic - while still considerably above Tolkien - is also considerably less world-shattering than D&D magic, generally. Rolemaster's system also lends itself better to a more "realisitic" (sic) environment, because it is QUITE possible for a 1st level character to kill a 20th (or 50th) level character with a bit (or a lot of luck).

(It is statisically possible, though implausible practically, for a 1st level Hobbit with a bent knife to kill (level 500) Morgoth (discounting the given Valar-immunity to nonmagic weapons, obviously), provided you rolled an exceptional number of back-to-back open-ended rolls, and Morgoth didn't have his Iron Crown which made him immune to fumbles and fluffed it (as otherwise a +666 Flail OB on a D100-based system is exactly as stupidly powerful as it sounds...)

In RM, Galadriel was a 60th level Seer/Mystic (see had access to both professions spell lists) - though she counted as 90th level for the purposes of defence. Gandalf was about this level (as the Grey), for comparison. (Note that 20th level is Rolemaster wasn't that far off in terms of how long it took you to get there as 20th level in DM or maybe longer, and the core spells only went up to 50th level, and in comparitive status (20th was "Lord" level, an basically above that roughly equates to epic in D&D 3.x.)

Sauron was level 240 (360 during the time he had the One Ring.) Sauron also knew all spells, and had the ability to break the action economy in ways that would make pretty mnuch ever D&D character sans Punpun cry, as he was allowed to cast a number of spells who total of levels didn't exceed his level simultaneously.

Which might be rather pushing the flavour as far as LotR was concerned, but was one of the best "no PC, you can't kill Sauron" restrictions I can think of1. Nothing ruins a PC's day like 45 simultaneous Fireballs (replace "fire" with any convieniant element, or use two from each of the 22 in RM, including plasma or nether etc etc, given that the odds of rolling open-ended on at least two or those per character is pretty good) or, say, six Dark Absolutions (which not only kill you but utterly destroy your soul, making Destruction/Implosion look positively benign...)

(Also, some of the magic equipement, especially weapons RM assigend was hilariously awesomely over-blown, like Luthien Tinuviels's dagger, which was a +88, struck like a battle axe, doing addition puncture and impact criticals, and could be thrown 8000' and teleported back to your hand...

Mind you, she was a level 150 Bard/Illusionist. (Which is not unreasonable, as she was able to inflitrate Morgoth's lair and send him to sleep...)



1The alternative of "statless so you can't kill him" would have been a self-defeating excercise, given the whole purpose of the Lords of Middle Earth series was to stat out everyone, from Lobelia Saxville Baggins to Morgoth...

[Ossian]

Gotta love Rolemaster. On a good day (and assuming you are not wearing Manga-powered items with +50 to defence as it often happens in I.C.E. modules and source-books)) the strongest rohirrim king will have a crazy-high offence (say, +180 lance) but just a "normal" defence". Yeah, Def does not scale up much with levels. You can have HPs out of your a**, but your ability to block attacks is hardly ever anything to write home about.

In melee, you can beef it up by parrying and manoeuvring. Ranged combat? You don t have a good shield? Pray your coat of mail links is sturdy enough. Maybe one arrow will just scratch you, but a volley? Ah, chances are one of those will hurt. And if you get stunned (1, 2, 10 rounds? ) then you are pretty much dead meat if no one intervenes. Never mind the bleeding (those HP/round add up so quickly) and the penalties (-5, -10 etc... and another -20 after you lose half of your total HP).

That's why even Galadriel would not wade into combat with a stiletto and her silk robes just because she has > 20 HD and MOAR spells. She can see the future, but only every now and then. She can heal, but she can't reattach limbs, she can backflip (probably) but she won't jump off a 10 meters wall just for the heck of it, she can probably fight well, if armoured and armed, but she'd be in trouble if surrounded by a band of raving mad esterlings.

Personally, I think that even RM makes the famous NPC a little too powerful, especially when it comes to Items. In my opinion, any weapon that is unbreakable , always sharp and can hurt magical enemies, is already light-years above the best sword there is in real life. No need to make every hit an insta-max-damage with extra criticals, fire damage, ice damage and whathave you (in D&D, I'd set the bar at Anguiriel/Gurthang, the twin (and evil) swords of black iron (yeah, I know, it sounds familiar...)). Bastard swords, +6, Keen, Adamantine. Narsil/Anduril would be a +4 Holy longsword, Adamantine etc...

If Galadriel and Gandalf are the Yodas and Mace WIndus of Middle Earth, one can safely leave the rest of the fellowship in the early to late teens ( and that is generous).

Sauron, on the other hand, is way out of anyone's league. Although he shuns direct confrontation (I call it PTSD after the battle of the last alliance) he could, theoretically, mop the floor with any combination of NPCs you would throw at him. There simply aren't enough great elven lords left to pose a real threat to him, should they manage to teleport straight into his throne room (and that's without the ring). The reason is that his inner power, in my mind, scales up with the aging of the world. As Arda grows older, and dimmer, and less and less elves inhabit it, he grows more powerful and aggressive.

Tolkien is not quite consistent in his power levels, throughout the various books (Sauron is captured and / or sent running like a little girl at least twice, by a dog (ok, Húan) and by Ar Pharazon (but it might have been a ruse)). Still, Gandalf himself seems pretty much petrified at the thought of squaring off with him. Sauron is a Maia, like G., but of a higher order. His powers are fire, flame, shadow. He burns, and smashes, and corrupts. I guess he's just got more juice...

If pressed to stat him, I'd make him a challenge for a band of Balrogs! A low Divine Rank seems about right. Perhaps a stupidly augmented Pit Fiend with Sorceror Levels to top it off (specialized in Fire and Mind Control magic). How about a Divine Rank 1, 54 HD Huge Pit Fiend with 15 to 20 levels of Sorcerer (without the ring). Throw in all the corrupt, tainted, devilish templates you want, it's all good.

The ring restores (methinks) him to full power and adds another 4 Divine Ranks and a truckload of Caster Levels to his spells. "Item Familiar" is a must, in the high-epic range of course.

O.

NB: people may stat Sauron as an 8HD monster all they want, and combat wise they might be right, but when it comes to Item Creations, well, that is the very essence of Middle Earth stories. The One Ring, the Nauglamir, the Silmarils, the Palantirs, the Lamps, it's all VERY epic stuff.

[hamishspence]

In what is published, it is relatively clear that Celeborn is one of Thingol's kin, which implies that he is one of the moriquendi and makes the latter story of Galadriel's relationship a contradiction.

Olwe is Thingol's brother- so for him to be a descendant of Olwe doesn't make him cease to be "Thingol's kin".

A good person doesn't have to have "pure desires" in everything- we're not talking Exalted Good here- just "good enough to have a Good alignment".

The PHB helpfully points out that even LG people can have flaws- be greedy- even be willing to steal if they can justify it to themselves.

The history goes on to make her one of the first to get suspicious of Sauron, and one of the leaders of the defense against him during the Second Age.


I know there are debates about what Christopher put in the Silmarillion and what he didn't but I've always sat on the side of "he had the most possible knowledge because beyond just the written stuff, he actively corresponded with his father about the world."

He himself pointed out in Unfinished Tales that he was only able to put stuff that was mostly complete into the Silmarillion- mentioning, for example, that Tolkien intended to move Orodreth from being her brother into being slightly later generation- but that this couldn't be included in the Silmarillion because it was merely an intention.