Exalted General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok! [Archive]

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Andreaz

2012-02-11, 07:48 AM

Did you know...

A new exalted splat is coming?
Masters of Jade hit Platinum on Drivethru?
In 2.5, Paranoia Suites changed from "Must Have" to "A reasonable idea"?
Exalted puppies use an "Oh No!" track instead of Limit?
Anathema character manager 3.0 is out? (Infernals are up!)
A lunar can eat 54 cakes in a Scene?

This is your thread. Discuss!

Popular Homebrew/Fixes

Kyeudo's warstrider fix. (http://www.mediafire.com/?misbm37gh71hr2e)
Extra Ox body techniques(or equivalent charm) equal to Stamina/Essence
Pete Schaefer on Lunar Character Generation (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Peter_Schaefer_on_Lunar_Character_ Generation)
Extra Excellencies. Generally, Solars/Abyssals get 5, Lunars get two, Sidereals 4, and Dragonblooded are 3, spread amoung caste and favored. Infernals get their caste Yozi's first Excellency free, including all future purchases of it.

List of Previous Threads:
General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172007)
General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183998)
General Exalted Discussion III: Weddings Are An Act of Villainy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192237)
General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196718)
General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199728)
General Exalted Discussion VI: Ascendancy Mantle of the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207218)
General Exalted Discussion VII: Playground Eternal Essence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217776)
General Exalted Discussion VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223918)

Useful Links:
The White Wolf Exalted Forum (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=17)
Exalted Character Repository (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186758)

Reynard's Sheets:
Infernal, Solar, and Abyssal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:

Motivation:

Urge

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 28
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots, and Abilities can be raised to 5 without BP)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability/Yozi
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Permanent Essence x3)+Willpower]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x7)+Willpower)+Sum of Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Lunar SheetName:
Caste:
Spirit Animal:
Anima:
Tell:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8 [9 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6 [7 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4 [5 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity. Casteless do not get Caste abilities, obviously]
(Specializations +)

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 25 [28 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
[F]Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms and Knacks
Attribute
Excellencies
[Charms]

Knacks:
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [Permanent Essence+(Willpower x2)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x4)+Willpower x2)+Highest Virtue x4]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Sidereal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:
Anima Power:

Motivation:

Faction:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]uspicious and [F]avoured (You get four) tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35, with at least 15 in Auspicious and Favoured.
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)
Caste Requirements:
The character must have at least Awareness ••, Bureaucracy ••, Linguistics (Old Realm) •, Lore •••, Martial Arts ••, Occult ••, Socialize •, Stealth • and at least one dot in Archery, Melee or Thrown. There are additional restrictions based on caste:

Chosen of Journeys must have Athletics ••, Linguistics (Old Realm and an appropriate additional language) ••, Resistance ••, Survival •• and Ride or Sail •••.

Chosen of Serenity must have either Craft or Performance ••, Linguistics •• (focusing on eloquent speaking and writing rather than languages), Medicine ••, Presence •• and Socialize •••.

Chosen of Battles must have Archery or Melee •••, Athletics ••, Dodge ••, Presence •• and War ••.

Chosen of Secrets must have Awareness ••, Investigation •••, Larceny ••, Socialize •• and Stealth ••.

Chosen of Endings must have Awareness ••, Dodge ••, Integrity ••, Martial Arts ••• and Stealth ••.
Journeys
Resistance:
Ride:
Sail:
Survival:
Thrown:

Serenity
Craft:
Dodge:
Linguistics:
Performance:
Socialize:

Battles
Archery:
Athletics:
Melee:
Presence:
War:

Secrets
Investigation:
Larceny:
Lore:
Occult:
Stealth:

Endings
Awareness:
Bureaucracy:
Integrity:
Martial Arts:
Medicine:
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:
Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]

Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat: 9 +1 Sux

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3

Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x2)+(Willpower)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x6)+Willpower 2)+Sum of all Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

[B]Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Dynast Dragonblooded Sheet.Name:
Aspect:
Anima:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 7
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]spect and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35
13 of these [I]MUST be placed into Aspect or Favoured. Also, I placed Dots where Dots must be. (Archery 1, Lore 2, Martial Arts 1, Melee 1, Performance 1, Presence 1, Ride 1, Socialize 2 and War 1.) You cannot remove these Dots, or Peleps Deled will come for you for a discussion on literature. These dots count towards the Total and the requirement.

Linguistics
Lore ●●
Occult
Stealth
Thrown

Awareness
Craft
Integrity
Resistance
War ●

Athletics
Dodge
Melee ●
Presence ●
Socialize ●●

Bureaucracy
Investigation
Larceny
Martial Arts ●
Sail

Archery ●
Medicine
Performance ●
Ride
Survival
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:
Dynasts start with 12 and may choose from Allies, Arsenal, Artifact, Backing, Breeding, Command, Connections, Familiar, Family, Henchmen, Manse, Reputation, Resources and Retainer. Also, note that Dynasts can go into the 4-5 range without using BP.

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source (Both it's Book and in-Game location]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms7 Charms, at least four of which must be from Aspect or Favored Abilities; Immaculate martial artists get 5 Immaculate Martial Arts Charms instead, all of which must be from the same elemental tree.
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Crazy Aspect Mode: (Differs, see your aspect entry in the DB book)

Intimacies:
You're a Realm-based DB. There will be many. See with your ST if you can arrange 'lesser' intimacies to represent your dozens of distant cousins and other members of your family that your character isn't that close to. List them in their own subsection just under this one, if so, and just use this for the Intimacies that will actually matter.

Languages:
High Realm (Native), ???

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Essence + Willpower) + any gained from
Breeding]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Essence x 4) + Willpower + [the sum of the two highest Virtues] + any gained from Breeding]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 18/18 | Flaws:
Lookshy Dragonblooded Sheet.Name:
Aspect:
Anima:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 7
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]spect and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35
13 of these MUST be placed into Aspect or Favoured. Also, I placed Dots where Dots must be. (Archery 2, Linguistics 3, Lore 2, Martial Arts 2, Melee 2, Performance 1, Presence 1, Ride 1, Stealth 1 and War 2.) You cannot remove these Dots.

Linguistics ●●●
Lore ●●
Occult
Stealth ●
Thrown

Awareness
Craft
Integrity
Resistance
War ●●

Athletics
Dodge
Melee ●●
Presence ●
Socialize ●●

Bureaucracy
Investigation
Larceny
Martial Arts ●●
Sail

Archery ●●
Medicine
Performance ●
Ride ●
Survival
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:
Lookshy Dragonblooded start with 13 points of Backgrounds and may choose from Allies, Arsenal, Artifact, Backing, Command, Connections, Familiar, Family, Manse, Mentor, Reputation, Resources and Retainer.

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source (Both it's Book and in-Game location]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
CharmsLookshy characters all start play with Wind-Carried Word Technique and Elemental Bolt Attack, to which they add 6 Dragon-Blooded Charms, 4 of which must come from Aspect or Favored Abilities; Lookshy DBs may not start play with Immaculate Martial Arts Charms.
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Crazy Aspect Mode: (Differs, see your aspect entry in the DB book)

Intimacies:

Languages:
???

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Essence + Willpower) + any gained from
Breeding]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Essence x 4) + Willpower + [the sum of the two highest Virtues] + any gained from Breeding]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 18/18 | Flaws:
Outcaste Dragonblooded Sheet. Poor buggers.Name:
Aspect:
Anima:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 7
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]spect and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 25
13 of these MUST be placed into Aspect or Favoured.

Linguistics
Lore
Occult
Stealth
Thrown

Awareness
Craft
Integrity
Resistance
War

Athletics
Dodge
Melee
Presence
Socialize

Bureaucracy
Investigation
Larceny
Martial Arts
Sail

Archery
Medicine
Performance
Ride
Survival
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:
Outcastes get 7, and use the Backgrounds from the Core Exalted book; no Background may be higher than 3 without spending bonus points. Note that this means you don't get the awesome version of the Artifact background.

Also, you get Breeding.

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source (Both it's Book and in-Game location]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms Outcastes get 7 to choose from, 4 must be from Favoured or Aspect. Abilities; an outcaste with a Mentor 5 sifu who opts to learn Celestial martial arts [see sidebar on p. 95] get 5 Celestial Martial Arts Charms instead, all of which must be from the same elemental tree.
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Crazy Aspect Mode: (Differs, see your aspect entry in the DB book)

Intimacies:

Languages:
???

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Essence + Willpower) + any gained from
Breeding]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Essence x 4) + Willpower + [the sum of the two highest Virtues] + any gained from Breeding]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 18/18 | Flaws:

Weimann

2012-02-11, 08:24 AM

Hah, great title.

On a tangent, Combo-OK is a stupid keyword. If 90% of all Charms have it, there should be an opposite keyword for the other 10% instead.

Story Time

2012-02-11, 09:02 AM

Errata Is Combo-OK! Shame fewer developers ( or publishers ) release it.

:smallbiggrin:

Good thread title. Also, charms are by default not compatible with other charms unless they have a key-word. So...you're suggesting that Default or Combo-NO could be new key-words?

Weimann

2012-02-11, 09:17 AM

Drascin

2012-02-11, 09:21 AM

I'm suggesting that instead of having a general rule ("no combo by default") that necessitates most Charms are exceptions from it (Combo-OK), you could have the opposite general rule ("combo by default") and point out the much much fewer exceptions (Combo-No).

It'd save word count, and look neater.

Well, yeah, but that would make sense.

That should explain to you plenty enough why the Exalted writers of the day didn't do it :smalltongue:.

Story Time

2012-02-11, 09:23 AM

That's...a pretty good idea. Either way there would have to be a clause of, "Charms use Key-Words to determine what kind of Combos can be made with those charms, if any."

But actually, that perspective turns mine up-side down. It's a much more...permissive way of wording things.

Do you plan to re-label all Solar charms then?

Weimann

2012-02-11, 09:37 AM

Nah. The benefits would be that it might free up word count for authors and please my own aesthetic senses better. For the end user, it'd be about the same. I'm just bitching, really. :smallwink:

Story Time

2012-02-11, 09:49 AM

Oh...

Well, I'll try to keep that Can-Do Attitude in mind at least.

Speaking of which, I still owe Drascin ice cream for a Lunar Short. If Drascin'll ever actually do it. :smallsmile:

tonberrian

2012-02-11, 10:08 AM

Ah, that new thread smell.

Smells like good soil.

Lix Lorn

2012-02-11, 10:17 AM

I love the smell of a new thread in the morning.
Smells like... victory.

...
How would I go about making a Dusk with a thing for napalm and helicopters? :smallamused:

Edit: Let me cross post this awesome thing from a thread I follow. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12699399&postcount=980)

tonberrian

2012-02-11, 10:18 AM

I love the smell of a new thread in the morning.
Smells like... victory.

...
How would I go about making a Dusk with a thing for napalm and helicopters? :smallamused:

First you would have to have someone to invent helicopters. Then napalm.

Lix Lorn

2012-02-11, 10:20 AM

Hmm. Dusk caste with craft then. Craft magitech.

Story Time

2012-02-11, 10:22 AM

...add copious amounts of Santa's charcoal.

Stir in Intimacies which when heated will solidify into obsessions?

Actually, napalm would be a great element for an undiscovered primordial. Liquid corrosive fire. Ouch.

KaganMonk

2012-02-11, 10:50 AM

Napalm::Ardent Embrace Resin (Oadenol's Codex)

Now you just need one of the nifty flying machines from Alchemicals. Or create Colossus rules to become a nifty flying machine as an Alchemical.

AdjectiveNoun

2012-02-11, 10:59 AM

Gensh

2012-02-11, 11:20 AM

Mr Gensh, you're the only person I recall feeling like that about the term "Chernozem". Are you sure it isn't localized among you and your inner circles?

It's not that I actually find the name sinister (though I certainly don't like how it completely ignores the previous style for names), but rather from a writing standpoint, it's absolutely terrible. I've had enough writing classes that I have a spider sense about these things. :smalltongue:

Actually, napalm would be a great element for an undiscovered primordial. Liquid corrosive fire. Ouch.

I'm pretty sure vitriol is flammable.

So, I think we've found the Flame Kimbery marched against.

That was the EC. So if napalm is flaming vitriol, then it all actually makes sense. I love it when a plan comes together. :smallbiggrin:

Though on the topic: Intolerable Burning Truths represents things Kimbery learned from the EC. Existence is Agony in particular raises some questions. While Malfeas has lost all sense of subtlety he may have had as the EC, does he kill because he cares?

Tavar

2012-02-11, 11:55 AM

Dying of the Light can probably be removed as a recruiting game, and the others should probably be checked to see if they as well.

On the other hand, this game is recruiting. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232268)

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-11, 12:21 PM

Gensh

2012-02-11, 12:49 PM

No offense intended, but (at least to me) "sounds evil if you growl it" and "my spider sense tells me" are not cogent arguments. It's fine if you don't like it; it's less fine if you say it's bad because you don't like it, and can't make a substantial argument as to why.

I'll admit, I might be a little biased - I've never even met a Satanist, let alone had him rifle through my gardening book for words to steal - but I just don't see a problem with it.

The comments about growling and spider sense was just me trying to keep the debate from getting dead serious, because there's no reason for things to get all uptight over something as minor as names. Also I was trying to avoid linking TVTropes. But like my comment about "cellar door," the standard interpretation of certain linguistic constructs leads to well-mapped linguistic interpretations: if you're listening to elvish, you expect it to sound like a Romance language. I just feel that by stressing the players call the Liminals Chernozem, they're trying to invoke standardized tropes and draw "awesome" from them. While as Terrestrials (-ish), I wouldn't mind that they had an epithet that broke the pattern as does "dragonblooded," the deliberate use of a foreign word to invoke mystique seems to be poor writing to me more than anything. And they don't even have the "they're alien" excuse as with raksha and demons. I mean, calling them Chernozem in the Polish book makes sense. Calling them Chernozem in the English book is silly.

And note that I said fake Satanist. The real ones actually have dignity.

Rockphed

2012-02-11, 12:50 PM

So the next Fire Aspect should be "The flaming fire", whose motivation is along the lines of "burn the world". Or would that be a loyalist midnight. Or whatever the abyssal equivalent of a zenith is.

The Demented One

2012-02-11, 01:10 PM

Hah, great title.

On a tangent, Combo-OK is a stupid keyword. If 90% of all Charms have it, there should be an opposite keyword for the other 10% instead.
Eyup.

On the other hand, the total wordcount lost to Combo-OK is something on the order of 3000 words, spread out across something like 23 different publications. That would be enough to have maybe an extra paragraph or sidebar in each of those books, not even a full Charm.

Turalisj

2012-02-11, 01:18 PM

This is Exalted; I'm pretty sure everything is flammable. If it doesn't burn, you just haven't used enough fire yet. This includes fire.

It's true. You just need to send it to the WW forums.

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-11, 01:36 PM

Eyup.

On the other hand, the total wordcount lost to Combo-OK is something on the order of 3000 words, spread out across something like 23 different publications. That would be enough to have maybe an extra paragraph or sidebar in each of those books, not even a full Charm.But we love sidebars! :smalleek:

I figured the wasted wordcount was fairly insignificant, hence why I wasn't raising a big fuss over it.

Weimann

2012-02-11, 01:43 PM

Eyup.

On the other hand, the total wordcount lost to Combo-OK is something on the order of 3000 words, spread out across something like 23 different publications. That would be enough to have maybe an extra paragraph or sidebar in each of those books, not even a full Charm.There are 3000 Charms now? :smalleek: And that just the Combo-OK ones, too...

Turalisj

2012-02-11, 01:47 PM

There are 3000 Charms now? :smalleek: And that just the Combo-OK ones, too...

1500 Charms across 23 publications. It's two different words :smalltongue:

Weimann

2012-02-11, 01:54 PM

Wow, don't know how I managed to fail that spectacularly.

Sorry!

The Demented One

2012-02-11, 02:35 PM

1500 Charms across 23 publications. It's two different words :smalltongue:
No, it's around 3000 Charms the last time someone did an official count.

"Combo-OK" is counted as one word by wordcount.

tonberrian

2012-02-11, 02:55 PM

No, it's around 3000 Charms the last time someone did an official count.

"Combo-OK" is counted as one word by wordcount.

That's a lot of charms.

You obviously need to write more to increase the percentage that is yours. I bet Holden's way ahead of you.

Story Time

2012-02-11, 03:01 PM

Gensh! Um...I think I broke Exalted with the Fluff Patch.

I'm...I'm sorry! :smallfrown: ...it happened just today...

No, it's around 3000 Charms the last time someone did an official count.

"Combo-OK" is counted as one word by wordcount.

Three thousand words closer to Sidereal erratum corrections! :smallbiggrin:

Really, I like side-bars too, as long as they're useful.

One Tin Soldier

2012-02-11, 04:30 PM

Qaera

2012-02-11, 04:58 PM

I have a question.

My GF and I want to make Exalted characters based on Sherlock Holmes and John Watson, specifically from the BBC show. Sherlock would be a Solar, and John would be his Lunar. However, we don't know much about the system or the fluff. Any advice on building this?

Sherlock has High Conviction, Med Temperence, Med Valor, Low Compassion. I think there is a sociopath Flaw, but I hesitate to recommend that because he still displays emotion and Flaws are, well, Flaws. For Attributes I would say 2/4/2 3/5/4 4/5/4. High Investigation, Awareness, Bureaucracy and maybe Athletics. Some kind of high-Int MA that deals with possibilities (that's more of the American version though). I would fluff him as homoromantic asexuall.

John: 3/3/4 3/1/3 3/3/3 I dunno. Medicine. He thinks he has a Pox but he doesn't. Compassion>Valor>Temperence=Conviction.

~ ♅

Lord Raziere

2012-02-11, 05:27 PM

It's not that I actually find the name sinister (though I certainly don't like how it completely ignores the previous style for names), but rather from a writing standpoint, it's absolutely terrible. I've had enough writing classes that I have a spider sense about these things. :smalltongue:

Yea, I'm not using that…..word for the Liminals either. I have a similar sense, as the name just senses as……pretentious, made up, not really….Exalted. it just doesn't aesthetically fit. Liminals ring true as something Exalted, that word…..that doesn't sound something that fits Exalted, it sounds more like some weird DnD insect or lizard race someone would make up that would somehow combined the aztecs with nuclear radiation or something….just not a good sound at all.

Liminals? roll off the tongue, are quick, have the same naming scheme as all the others, sounds like a clear bell with all the clarity of transparency and such. its like clear water standing still, a lake that you can use as a mirror.
Liminals. Liminals, Liminals, Liminals. A good word for an Exalted is one you can say all day.

That word….no….just no. Not even as an epithet.

I've heard however they are going to some kind of champions or Lethe or something. which means my epithet for the Liminal Exalted is going to be Gravekeepers.

One Tin Soldier

2012-02-11, 05:55 PM

Sherlock has High Conviction, Med Temperence, Med Valor, Low Compassion. I think there is a sociopath Flaw, but I hesitate to recommend that because he still displays emotion and Flaws are, well, Flaws. For Attributes I would say 2/4/2 3/5/4 4/5/4. High Investigation, Awareness, Bureaucracy and maybe Athletics. Some kind of high-Int MA that deals with possibilities (that's more of the American version though). I would fluff him as homoromantic asexuall.

John: 3/3/4 3/1/3 3/3/3 I dunno. Medicine. He thinks he has a Pox but he doesn't. Compassion>Valor>Temperence=Conviction.

~ ♅

Thanks! This will be very helpful.

vegetalss4

2012-02-11, 06:04 PM

Yea, I'm not using that…..word for the Liminals either. I have a similar sense, as the name just senses as……pretentious, made up, not really….Exalted. it just doesn't aesthetically fit. Liminals ring true as something Exalted, that word…..that doesn't sound something that fits Exalted, it sounds more like some weird DnD insect or lizard race someone would make up that would somehow combined the aztecs with nuclear radiation or something….just not a good sound at all.

Liminals? roll off the tongue, are quick, have the same naming scheme as all the others, sounds like a clear bell with all the clarity of transparency and such. its like clear water standing still, a lake that you can use as a mirror.
Liminals. Liminals, Liminals, Liminals. A good word for an Exalted is one you can say all day.

That word….no….just no. Not even as an epithet.

I've heard however they are going to some kind of champions or Lethe or something. which means my epithet for the Liminal Exalted is going to be Gravekeepers.

I must say that I find something inherently amusing about people finding a word for good farming soil pretentious.:smallamused:
Doubly so when it is a word from a people who generally are seen as anything but that.

Tavar

2012-02-11, 06:05 PM

Triply so when they say it's out of theme, without actually knowing what themes they're talking about....

Lord Raziere

2012-02-11, 06:31 PM

Wrong, I said aesthetically it doesn't fit. it could the thematics like a frigging glove and I still would not care. the fact that its a name for good farming soil makes it suck, and I care even less what language its from.

presentation and aesthetics are important to. I will not play something with sucky names or colors that don't match quite right. its awkward and out of place. the fact that they apparently chose that word as their real name and Liminals as the epithet makes it even worse, as the way one would see it now,
it would inconsistent and out of place even more among all the Exalts being: Solars, Lunars, Terrestrials, Sidereals and so on, it just makes more sense to call them Liminals to match, even if that weird word is closer to thematics.

Tavar

2012-02-11, 06:39 PM

Again, I find it laughable to declare something doesn't fit without knowing what it is supposed to fit into. Note that they have been called the Black Earth exalted by at least a couple, so that leads me to believe there's a reason, and not just the writers choosing names out of a hat.

Weimann

2012-02-11, 06:43 PM

I quite like the world Liminal Exalted. It does roll off the tongue very easily.

However, I must say I like the other sobriquets as well. Chernozem feels heavy and somewhat threatening. Real. I like to roll on the r. Children of the Black Earth also has a distinctly... well, I want to say down to earth feeling, which would sound silly, but that's what it feels like.

The other Exalts are Lawgivers and golden kings and terrible monsters and have blood of dragons and all kind of fantasy stuff. These guys? They feel grittier. I imagine a misty day, there's rain in the air and the farmers are ploughing their fields. The wet air clings to their back and the black soil gleams thick and rich around the plough. There is strength born from years and generations in that earth. Pride. Life. The earth treats them as they treat it.

Of course, I know jack about how the Chernozem will actually be, but yeah, I like the names.

The name I dislike the most in probably Warden for Lunars. I just think it misses the point. The Terrestrials should be the Wardens instead. It might fit better after the Lunar errata, but I'm not counting on it.

Andreaz

2012-02-11, 09:15 PM

Is English your native language? Mine isn't, and so the "feel" you put in Chernozem that the others don't have...They've always been there for me. the inverted "<adjective> Exalted"::"<sobriquet>" part does indeed feel unnecessary, but not troublesome.

The sobriquet itself? Really doesn't feel different any more than the others do.

Turalisj

2012-02-11, 09:19 PM

English is my native language, and I really don't find anything wrong with the word Chernozern. Hell, I like that it's something different than what has been used with every other exalt type.

tonberrian

2012-02-11, 09:31 PM

Really, Slavic languages should be mined more for Exalted terms.

Tavar

2012-02-11, 11:35 PM

Quick, I need a name for a Merchant vessel in the High first age, plus a couple names for random civilians. For a short little piece of fiction, but I'm horrible with making up names, especially in the Exalted tradition.

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-11, 11:48 PM

Quick, I need a name for a Merchant vessel in the High first ageRadiant Dream.

Flying Spirit.

Shimmering Raven.

Golden Opportunity.

Vessel 246. :smalltongue:

plus a couple names for random civilians.Michiko

Chun Hei

Lord Raziere

2012-02-12, 12:28 AM

Well I'll never be happy with the term. to me "Chernozem" is the lingual aesthetic equivalent to a bratty 90's teen who thinks he is "X-treme" showing up at a formal dinner party where everyone is wearing suits and dresses, while he is dressed in casual street clothes while spouting out stupid slang filled with X's and Z's. completely inappropriate and out of place, and not caring for the etiquette of the situation at all.

I'm calling them Liminal Exalted, and thats what they are no matter how "kewl" or whatever that word is. there is a certain etiquette to Exalted naming that needs to be observed, and if I'm the only one to do it, so be it.

Turalisj

2012-02-12, 12:39 AM

Qaera

2012-02-12, 12:44 AM

The Heart of Gold

~ ♅

Lord Raziere

2012-02-12, 12:51 AM

Not to sound mean, but doesn't that seem a bit snobbish?

'I prefer Liminal Exalted because Chernozem doesn't sound formal enough.'

what I'm saying that it doesn't the naming etiquette. Solars, Lunars, Sidereals, Terrestrials, Alchemicals, Abyssals, Infernals, Liminals. they fit.

that word? doesn't. its not about whether its formal, a man in a suit speaking flowery language being formal to a bunch of casual people spouting slang at a wild party is just as inappropriate.

Qaera

2012-02-12, 12:56 AM

what I'm saying that it doesn't the naming etiquette. Solars, Lunars, Sidereals, Terrestrials, Alchemicals, Abyssals, Infernals, Liminals. they fit.

that word? doesn't. its not about whether its formal, a man in a suit speaking flowery language being formal to a bunch of casual people spouting slang at a wild party is just as inappropriate.

I think you're looking at this wrong. Exalted isn't about whats apropos, it's about what's awesome and cool and sexy and rad and potato and sweet cornbread and vittles. The suited man speaking French and nibbling on my ear is clearly superior to a rowdy fangangbloonum. In this manner, Chernozem is aight.

~ ♅

Turalisj

2012-02-12, 12:58 AM

I think you are looking at the naming convention the wrong way.

Tavar

2012-02-12, 01:11 AM

Especially given that there are strong hints that these Exalted, unlike all the others, don't descend from Autochthon's blueprints. Having a different name makes a great deal of sense then.

Rockphed

2012-02-12, 01:51 AM

Maybe the problem people are having with "Chernozem"<>"Liminal Exalted" is that pretty much every other exalted type has "Fancy word"<>"Plain english description". Chernozem might be a proper english word, but unless you spend lots of time farming, you have never heard of it. So if they were "Chernozem-al* exalted", commonly called "Black Earth Guardians", people would have fewer problems with their naming. If they are alternately "Chernozem Exalted" or "Liminal Exalted", that isn't bad either.

*Or however slavic words get turned into adjectives. Preferably how slavic words get turned into adjectives.

Kyeudo

2012-02-12, 02:14 AM

Especially given that there are strong hints that these Exalted, unlike all the others, don't descend from Autochthon's blueprints. Having a different name makes a great deal of sense then.

The more I hear about these Chernozem the less that I like them. They don't have any place in the setting as is. Making them fit in less is going to make them even harder to sell.

Lord Raziere

2012-02-12, 03:17 AM

I think you're looking at this wrong. Exalted isn't about whats apropos, it's about what's awesome and cool and sexy and rad and potato and sweet cornbread and vittles. The suited man speaking French and nibbling on my ear is clearly superior to a rowdy fangangbloonum. In this manner, Chernozem is aight.

ok then. Celestial Dragon-Blooded/Elemental Solars, Abyssals without Resonance, give them to me if thats what Exalted is about. thats whats awesome to me.

Qaera

2012-02-12, 03:21 AM

ok then. Celestial Dragon-Blooded/Elemental Solars, Abyssals without Resonance, give them to me if thats what Exalted is about. thats whats awesome to me.

Those may be awesome (to you), but they are hardly vittles. I am posting at 2:22 am hahahahaha

~ ♅

Andreaz

2012-02-12, 05:16 AM

I know what you meant there, but... "Celestial Dragon-Blooded"? O.o the terms you defined as awesome are just "what's already there".

Story Time

2012-02-12, 07:44 AM

that word? doesn't. its not about whether its formal, a man in a suit speaking flowery language being formal to a bunch of casual people spouting slang at a wild party is just as inappropriate.

No, it doesn't fit. Conventions are called conventions for a reason. Nomenclature exists because of the identification of traditions and similarities. Raziere is correct that the C-word does not fit for exactly the reason he stated. It is not presented in contemporary English.

ok then. Celestial Dragon-Blooded/Elemental Solars, Abyssals without Resonance, give them to me if thats what Exalted is about. thats whats awesome to me.

I know what you meant there, but... "Celestial Dragon-Blooded"? O.o the terms you defined as awesome are just "what's already there".

Think about it. Thousands, perhaps millions, of monks of the Immaculate Order learn how to manipulate essence through thaumaturgical rituals every day in Creation. One of them should be able to attract a Celestial Exaltation Shard.

Andreaz

2012-02-12, 07:54 AM

Think about it. Thousands, perhaps millions, of monks of the Immaculate Order learn how to manipulate essence through thaumaturgical rituals every day in Creation. One of them should be able to attract a Celestial Exaltation Shard.

Yes, but that monk is not a dragon-blooded, nor does he become something recognizable as such except through deliberate deception :p

I see what you mean by conventions. Yes, Chernozem is the first to deviate from the convention. That is a valid point, but not one that bothers me. "Soilers" ain't a good sobriquet tho :D. I wonder what they'll do with it.

Btw, I am currently writing a js suite of stuff to aid in running the game. Health tracker, battle timer, dice roller...the whole thing. If anyone is willing to help I'll be greatly pleased.
Some things about it...

Prettification will likely come last, as I'm horrible with it.
It uses jquery and jqueryUi.
One can open multiple instances of the healthtracker, as well as add/remove damage taken. Their size is also customizable within the -0 -> -4 range

I only just started, it's fun stuff. If you have a suggestion of what it should have, or how it should work, please let me know.

Story Time

2012-02-12, 08:24 AM

Yes, but that monk is not a dragon-blooded, nor does he become something recognizable as such except through deliberate deception :p

Ahem. Celestial Exaltation Shard. Of course they won't be Dragon-blooded. :smallsmile:

"Soilers" ain't a good sobriquet tho :D. I wonder what they'll do with it.

Not to spur conflict, but I think its a fantastic sobriquet! :smallbiggrin: So much more expressive than insert-foreign-word-here. Soilers. Just think of how their opponents could make fun of them! :smalltongue:

[...]currently writing a js suite of stuff to aid in running the game[...]uses jquery and jqueryUi[...]please let me know.

Explanation is requested for JS, please. Java Script?

Andreaz

2012-02-12, 09:20 AM

Explanation is requested for JS, please. Java Script?

Yes.
<obligatory character limit>

Gensh

2012-02-12, 09:47 AM

Btw, I am currently writing a js suite of stuff to aid in running the game. Health tracker, battle timer, dice roller...the whole thing. If anyone is willing to help I'll be greatly pleased.

I wrote a set of macros for the tabletop utility Maptool, if you're familiar with it. If you need help with setting up any of the basic formulas, then I can see if I've already worked it out. Are you including the ability to save characters? Without that feature in Maptool, it would have been a pain to keep track of the stats for whatever form the Lunars were in at the time, and while I didn't have any Infernals, they would cause the same sort of issue. Since character data is preserved, I created duplicates of the variables that held their human statistics and made a unique set of macros for each Lunar that set the main attribute values to the proper amount, drawing from the copies I made for returning to human form.

Andreaz

2012-02-12, 10:03 AM

I wrote a set of macros for the tabletop utility Maptool, if you're familiar with it.I'm not. I'll look it up.
If you need help with setting up any of the basic formulas, then I can see if I've already worked it out.the most intriguing, at the moment, is applying damage to the health track. Handling overflow damage isn't done yet. I already have a dice roller set up somewhere, so I'll likely use that. Dunno where to start on the battle timer :p
Are you including the ability to save characters? Without that feature in Maptool, it would have been a pain to keep track of the stats for whatever form the Lunars were in at the time, and while I didn't have any Infernals, they would cause the same sort of issue. Since character data is preserved, I created duplicates of the variables that held their human statistics and made a unique set of macros for each Lunar that set the main attribute values to the proper amount, drawing from the copies I made for returning to human form.I won't do that, at least for now. I'm not bothering with charms, knacks or rules that deviate from the norm until I'm comfortable with the standard code. Actual character builders are much more complex and already available in ways that beat my ability (for now >:D), so I'm making live assistants.

Story Time

2012-02-12, 10:09 AM

Yes.
<obligatory character limit>

Well, when you reach something relevant, send me a private message. I'll, one, tell you what I think, two, won't talk about it with anyone without your permission, and three, continue to think that home-brew is the very best medicine for Exalted. Your project counts as that. So really, let me know. :smallsmile:

Since character data is preserved, I created duplicates of the variables that held their human statistics and made a unique set of macros for each Lunar that set the main attribute values to the proper amount, drawing from the copies I made for returning to human form.

That just sounds...so very cool. I've investigated MapTool, but never really used it consistently. I guess what I'd really need is someone who uses it regularly for some reason so that I'd be repeatedly exposed to it.

Andreaz

2012-02-12, 10:19 AM

Thanks.
But I don't think I'm doing anything new. It's just a take on things I'm having fun writing.
I have also to decide whether I want it as compact as possible, to make a single file, or an actual folder with stuff. The biggest obstacle for the former right now is that I'm using images for the health levels.

Gensh

2012-02-12, 10:32 AM

I'm not. I'll look it up.the most intriguing, at the moment, is applying damage to the health track. Handling overflow damage isn't done yet. I already have a dice roller set up somewhere, so I'll likely use that.

The way I managed that was making damage an entirely separate script from the damage calculation. Each player (and NPC) would calculate how much damage their attack did, but I would be the one to actually inflict the damage using the second script, which would account for soak, hardness, and piercing attacks. You'll need to think of a different way to do the health tracks since you aren't keeping persistent character data, but I set it up so that each character token kept track of how many total health levels they had and how many -0s, -1s, -2s, -4s, and Incapacitated. From there, it was just a matter of checking whether the character was below any of those thresholds each time damage was inflicted.

Dunno where to start on the battle timer :pI won't do that, at least for now. I'm not bothering with charms, knacks or rules that deviate from the norm until I'm comfortable with the standard code. Actual character builders are much more complex and already available in ways that beat my ability (for now >:D), so I'm making live assistants.

That was kind of a mess with Maptool since it was designed for a D&D-style initiative system. I set it up so that each Join Battle roll gave a positive number. The counter then just started counting down indefinitely into negative numbers.

That just sounds...so very cool. I've investigated MapTool, but never really used it consistently. I guess what I'd really need is someone who uses it regularly for some reason so that I'd be repeatedly exposed to it.

There are both pluses and minuses to using Maptool. One thing that's a pain is actually having maps. Either you have to spend forever building one in Maptool or spend forever looking for a premade one on the internet. And when it finally comes time that you have to reuse a map, the players will joke about having this feeling they've been there before. It certainly speeds up calculations for games like Exalted where there are entirely too many variables to keep track of sometimes, but that's only if someone dedicates enough time to create a macro for each unique Charm effect (thankfully there are only a dozen or so), piece of equipment, and alternate form. Never let anyone play a Lunar weapon master. Now, the group I was running that used Maptool eventually stopped using it for two reasons: 1) It was constantly taking me longer to get new maps; 2) The dice roller hated them. Still, it's not necessarily a bad utility to use, even if it's just the ST running it to keep track of all the battle calculations.

I have also to decide whether I want it as compact as possible, to make a single file, or an actual folder with stuff. The biggest obstacle for the former right now is that I'm using images for the health levels.

If you know what you're doing, you could always upload the images to an online location and have the utility cache them when it starts up. That way, you could have the best of both worlds. Of course, I couldn't even tell you how to begin to do that. Still, I don't think you'd have that much of a problem with a folder. There are a few tricks you can use to minimize image size, so it won't necessarily be that bad.

Andreaz

2012-02-12, 10:37 AM

The way I managed that was making damage an entirely separate script from the damage calculation. Each player (and NPC) would calculate how much damage their attack did, but I would be the one to actually inflict the damage using the second script, which would account for soak, hardness, and piercing attacks. You'll need to think of a different way to do the health tracks since you aren't keeping persistent character data, but I set it up so that each character token kept track of how many total health levels they had and how many -0s, -1s, -2s, -4s, and Incapacitated. From there, it was just a matter of checking whether the character was below any of those thresholds each time damage was inflicted.
The data is persistent during any given execution, it just won't hold over from this session to the next time you refresh the screen. Currently applying damage is done like this: Put the entire health matrix in a single array, add the damage applied, sort (agg : 3, lethal : 2, bashing : 1, 0 is undamaged) and reapply to the matrix. Overflow damage...it's what i'm figuring right now.

If you know what you're doing, you could always upload the images to an online location and have the utility cache them when it starts up. That way, you could have the best of both worlds. Of course, I couldn't even tell you how to begin to do that. Still, I don't think you'd have that much of a problem with a folder. There are a few tricks you can use to minimize image size, so it won't necessarily be that bad.

Just having the urls stored is enough for the browser to cache them. It's a way.

Story Time

2012-02-12, 11:41 AM

There are both pluses and minuses to using Maptool. One thing that's a pain is actually having maps.[...]1) It was constantly taking me longer to get new maps; 2) The dice roller hated them. Still, it's not necessarily a bad utility to use, even if it's just the ST running it to keep track of all the battle calculations.

I tend to go to Random.Org for my numerical randomness.

Yeah, the abstract nature of Exalted doesn't lend well to the tactical feeling of map simulation. It can be done by really good role-players, but hasn't struck me as the norm. If I ever had the opportunity to play in a D20 game that did, I'd probably try MapTool for it.

...every once in a while I get the urge to mess around with a character sheet generator software. Hm.

Also, and completely unrelated to the current topic, I...might have to take a recess from the Fluff Patch.

tonberrian

2012-02-12, 06:37 PM

I made a thing. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58062)

Urpriest

2012-02-12, 07:20 PM

Chirality Prohibition Index should have an upgrade called Supersymmetry-Preserving Membrane. Or possibly Higgs-Deflating Truths.

tonberrian

2012-02-12, 07:34 PM

Chirality Prohibition Index should have an upgrade called Supersymmetry-Preserving Membrane. Or possibly Higgs-Deflating Truths.

There's a physics joke in here somewhere.

I hate physics jokes.

Andreaz

2012-02-12, 07:52 PM

There's a physics joke in here somewhere.

I hate physics jokes.

D:
<obligatory character limit>

Gensh

2012-02-12, 09:25 PM

I made a thing. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58062)

I agree with Tavar's comment on the other board but don't have anything else to add and continue to refuse to make an account there.

tonberrian

2012-02-12, 09:40 PM

I agree with Tavar's comment on the other board but don't have anything else to add and continue to refuse to make an account there.

Why is that exactly?

That you won't make an account there, I mean.

Gensh

2012-02-12, 10:40 PM

Why is that exactly?

That you won't make an account there, I mean.

Partly because about half the members outright refuse to listen to reason, partly because everyone won't stop patting Holden on the back, even when he's just making a lulzy comment or more or less trolling (and I dislike Holden as a person even if I respect his talent; see below). It's not that I want to hang around people who all share my opinion as my various kerfuffles with Tavar, Alucard, and Bookworm show, so much as that I refuse to argue with someone who outright refuses to try to understand a foreign position, no matter how silly he might feel it is. I cannot join the board, simply because I know I would bash my head in against my desk. How a game manages to acquire ironclad adherents on par with politics and religion is beyond me; I'd swear Fitter Happier is Peleps Deled himself.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z42/Fearbane/holden.png
YOU GET NOTHING! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ)

Tavar

2012-02-12, 11:08 PM

Kyeudo

2012-02-12, 11:17 PM

The White Wolf board pretty much flatly refuses to consider anything an Ink Monkey creates to be in any way bad. Take the new Exalted they announced in Masters of Jade. I hate them because they are being forcibly injected into my game without my permission. If I were to post that opinion on the White Wolf boards, I'd be laughed at as a backwards hillbilly. Likewise, my position on Glories of the Most High, Samsara, and Sol Invictus's insane behavioral constraints is ridiculed every time I mention it, as if hating the idea of super-fate that can bind the actions of things specifically beyond fate is somehow badwrongfun. :smallannoyed:

For how it gets into my games without my permission? Stating something as canon adds it to the preconceptions people bring to a game. Unless I specifically call it out as not existing, they assume it is there. I have to specifically remove it from my game to get rid of it once an Ink Monkey has put it in text form.

The main reason I go over there is that, like the Wyld, they occasionally spew forth ideas that are worth paying attention to. Half my ideas on what Lunars should be and what they should not be were formed while listening to Inugami and Revlid duke it out over Heart's Blood and shapeshifting.

Turalisj

2012-02-12, 11:19 PM

I hate them because they are being forcibly injected into my game without my permission.

They are? I don't recall someone holding a gun to your head telling you to use them or else...

Tavar

2012-02-12, 11:32 PM

The White Wolf board pretty much flatly refuses to consider anything an Ink Monkey creates to be in any way bad.
This...isn't true. There have been things that the forums have criticized, and done so heavily.

Take the new Exalted they announced in Masters of Jade. I hate them because they are being forcibly injected into my game without my permission. If I were to post that opinion on the White Wolf boards, I'd be laughed at as a backwards hillbilly. Likewise, my position on Glories of the Most High, Samsara, and Sol Invictus's insane behavioral constraints is ridiculed every time I mention it, as if hating the idea of super-fate that can bind the actions of things specifically beyond fate is somehow badwrongfun. :smallannoyed:
I'm not so sure about that. First off, I don't think they're that likely to do such an act at first. I think it would only really get that bad after a bit of discussion. Secondly, I think that's because your view seems, well, wrong. You've brought up these arguments before, and they seem to mostly rely on twisted meanings/preconceptions.

For how it gets into my games without my permission? Stating something as canon adds it to the preconceptions people bring to a game. Unless I specifically call it out as not existing, they assume it is there. I have to specifically remove it from my game to get rid of it once an Ink Monkey has put it in text form.
Oh. I get it. Your problem is that someone else is in charge of the gameline, instead of you, and thus you don't get veto power over what goes on. And, I guess, that the gameline is still active, instead of dead.

tonberrian

2012-02-12, 11:36 PM

I think that taking an immediately disapproving stance on something we have so little information on is silly.

Edit: Tavar said what I wanted to say much nicer and with less nonsense. Let's go with that.

Lord Raziere

2012-02-12, 11:38 PM

I agree that the WW forums are hostile, problem is they are the biggest experts on the mechanics. If they were just a bunch of hostile arguers no one would pay attention to them. Sometimes though, they are right.

But then there are also places like RPG.net that has its own flaws, where they are completely hostile against Exalted, Holden and the Ink Monkeys even when they doing things right, and I've heard an argument similar to Kyeudo's about how new content is somehow forcing people to use it which I find nonsensical.

As usual, balance and moderation is key….too bad it seems people seem to lack this in this situation.

and of course, no one likes people like me who want to do things like get rid of Resonance and put in elemental celestial Exalts….but I'm mostly over those things. I can play the canon stuff, but stuff I prefer would be even better.

Gensh

2012-02-12, 11:45 PM

This board isn't exactly better in that regard: if anything it's simply that the outright hostility is swapped for passive aggressiveness (though I think it's reputation as a bomb waiting to blow is undeserved, now at least: it's cooled down quite a bit). Well, it doesn't have Holden, but I'm not quite sure what your complaint is with regards to him: the fact that the forum laughs when he makes a funny comment?

But passive-aggressive one-upsmanship is so very entertaining. <3<

My beef with Holden is that it all goes to his head. He swaggers, as much as that is possible with an online persona. He thinks he's a big man, and while he does sometimes make legitimately helpful, insightful, or clever comments, there's a massive clump of people licking his boots when he misses the mark entirely. I just feel it's behavior unbefitting a designer, though it's not like I'm not used to it from Monte Cook. Of course, as I've said, I can generally trust him to write well, which is more than anyone can say for Monte. :smallamused:

The White Wolf board pretty much flatly refuses to consider anything an Ink Monkey creates to be in any way bad. Take the new Exalted they announced in Masters of Jade. I hate them because they are being forcibly injected into my game without my permission. If I were to post that opinion on the White Wolf boards, I'd be laughed at as a backwards hillbilly. Likewise, my position on Glories of the Most High, Samsara, and Sol Invictus's insane behavioral constraints is ridiculed every time I mention it, as if hating the idea of super-fate that can bind the actions of things specifically beyond fate is somehow badwrongfun. :smallannoyed:

While I won't claim the game as my own, I certainly have a certain vested interest in keeping the game the way I like it; everyone does. While I may joke about being a defiler, arbitrarily changing things up like they are with the Chernozem is exactly the sort of thing that grinds my gears. Similarly, the given personalities of the Incarnae are one of the things that I never use in-game, as those I've played with have completely raged at them. They even changed to the same perspective as I do that maybe it was the Primordials who were in the right, if those who lifted up humanity are such terrible people, because at least the Primordials can't help themselves. That sort of decision shouldn't be something that an entire circle jumps on all at once. Though my version of Luna numbers on their top 3 favorite NPCs list.

You can dance~
You can jive~
Having the time of your life~
See that girl~
Watch that scene~
Diggin' the Dancing Queen~

Of course, I'm not sure how Samsara got past Holden at all, what with his infamous stance on Cthulhu. That we before he took over, I believe, so I guess they just made sure not to tell him about it until it was already there or something. He is already here.

For how it gets into my games without my permission? Stating something as canon adds it to the preconceptions people bring to a game. Unless I specifically call it out as not existing, they assume it is there. I have to specifically remove it from my game to get rid of it once an Ink Monkey has put it in text form.

To be fair, a lot of what they write are things that either should have been published already or blend seamlessly. Sometimes they outright contradict what has been published, and it's fun. Sometimes it isn't. Still wondering what in the shadow of the Ebon Dragon could have possessed someone to include a black hole punch in Solar Hero Style. I mean, seriously, they could have just said "sun" instead of "black hole," and it would have made sense.

The main reason I go over there is that, like the Wyld, they occasionally spew forth ideas that are worth paying attention to. Half my ideas on what Lunars should be and what they should not be were formed while listening to Inugami and Revlid duke it out over Heart's Blood and shapeshifting.

I do check once a week or so for that reason.

Tavar

2012-02-13, 12:13 AM

My beef with Holden is that it all goes to his head. He swaggers, as much as that is possible with an online persona. He thinks he's a big man, and while he does sometimes make legitimately helpful, insightful, or clever comments, there's a massive clump of people licking his boots when he misses the mark entirely. I just feel it's behavior unbefitting a designer, though it's not like I'm not used to it from Monte Cook. Of course, as I've said, I can generally trust him to write well, which is more than anyone can say for Monte. :smallamused:
Can you provide examples? I haven't really seen this.

While I won't claim the game as my own, I certainly have a certain vested interest in keeping the game the way I like it; everyone does. While I may joke about being a defiler, arbitrarily changing things up like they are with the Chernozem is exactly the sort of thing that grinds my gears.
I'm not sure we can really call it arbitrary yet: there's so little out about them that it really feels like people complaining about how Dare Holden and the rest of the Developers/Freelancers working on Exalted actually Work on exalted!

Similarly, the given personalities of the Incarnae are one of the things that I never use in-game, as those I've played with have completely raged at them. They even changed to the same perspective as I do that maybe it was the Primordials who were in the right, if those who lifted up humanity are such terrible people, because at least the Primordials can't help themselves. That sort of decision shouldn't be something that an entire circle jumps on all at once. Though my version of Luna numbers on their top 3 favorite NPCs list.

Can you explain why this is?

Of course, I'm not sure how Samsara got past Holden at all, what with his infamous stance on Cthulhu. That we before he took over, I believe, so I guess they just made sure not to tell him about it until it was already there or something. He is already here.
I think people place too much importance on Samsara: it's a frighteningly good number cruncher, that 5 people can really consult to a great degree, even limited as they are. And even then, it can simply give the result: Cloudy, come back later.

Turalisj

2012-02-13, 12:18 AM

I like the idea that Samsara is a giant Magic-8 Ball that the Maiden's take waaay too seriously.

Tavar

2012-02-13, 12:28 AM

I like the idea that Samsara is a giant Magic-8 Ball that the Maiden's take waaay too seriously.

They've essentially stated that's what it is.

There's no mind guiding it. It's just procedurally generated information naturally arising out of the rule of cool. It's a random script generator, designed by nobody, with a native bias toward dramatic events. It is, in all seriousness, a magic eight-ball with ten quintillion answer-surfaces rather than a dozen.
That's it.
And it is powerless if left alone.

Gensh

2012-02-13, 12:59 AM

Can you provide examples? I haven't really seen this.

Unfortunately, I can't, as I only browse occasionally. It might just be that I'm too used to picking up minor things in text that no one else pays much heed (all those lit classes, as mentioned).

I'm not sure we can really call it arbitrary yet: there's so little out about them that it really feels like people complaining about how Dare Holden and the rest of the Developers/Freelancers working on Exalted actually Work on exalted!

But they broke the naming pattern! Once the symmetry of the Perfected Principle of Hierarchy is broken, it can never be restored! I am simultaneously joking and being dead serious here.

Can you explain why this is?

Sol's defining trait is the struggle to maintain opposing Virtues. Instead of playing him up like Superman (who has had several different writeups himself) or really making his character about the struggle itself, they've made him about failing to rise to the challenge. He's not Exalted, but he is the archetype of perfection from which they are modeled. He should be everything they strive to surpass, even if they decide to go on the world-explody route, not some lazy, arrogant, foolish prick that even the decidedly "good guy" Solars want to off.

Luna...still manages to not really be defined well. I mean, that's kind of the point to her character, but should we really be learning more about her from her brief dialogue with Laashe in an Ink Monkeys essay than in Glories: Luna?

The Maidens are likewise not defined well, but in this case because they're supposed to have an air of mystery about them. They certainly have well-developed personalities in the fanon, but canonically, most of what we know is that they lie around Samsara like the Princess Leia cosplayers to its Jabba the Hutt.

As far as circle morality goes, it's one thing for players to sit down, look at the books, and decide on what sort of morality they want to play. It's quite another for all the players to up and say "You know, Sol is actually kind of a ****. I feel bad for Malfeas," as a personal viewpoint. Siding with the Yozis should require the same sort of grim conviction as Master Asia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHvUmavNj4g) (even though he decided he was wrong).

I think people place too much importance on Samsara: it's a frighteningly good number cruncher, that 5 people can really consult to a great degree, even limited as they are. And even then, it can simply give the result: Cloudy, come back later.

The problem isn't with Samsara per se, so much as Sacheverell. Turning the concept of a railroading ST into an actual game construct is silly.

golentan

2012-02-13, 01:17 AM

They've essentially stated that's what it is.

I prefer the idea of Samsara as the Metaplot of the game (by which I mean the individual game as run by the ST, as opposed to the game line). It may not be fixed from the perspective of the characters or players, but Samsara is what you write down when you go and do a campaign journal, and it was "always fated to be that way."

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-13, 01:18 AM

Instead of playing him up like Superman...The Unconquered Sun is not Superman. Superman does not have 5 in every Virtue, and even if he did, it wouldn't affect him the same way it does the Sun.

Most of what we know is that they lie around Samsara like the Princess Leia cosplayers to its Jabba the Hutt.Reduced to the position of living sexual trophies, all while resisting at every turn, and filled with loathing for their new "master?" :smalltongue:

Oh, wait, cosplayers. Still don't think the analogy fits, though. :smallconfused:

The problem isn't with Samsara per se, so much as Sacheverell.Sacheverell is not Samsara, nor is what the Maidens do the same.

Also, if Samsara is not the problem, then you shouldn't have said that Samsara was the problem. :smalltongue:

aetherialDawn

2012-02-13, 01:56 AM

The problem isn't with Samsara per se, so much as Sacheverell. Turning the concept of a railroading ST into an actual game construct is silly.

Sacheverell is not a railroading ST by default; look upon him more as the horribly powerful telepath in a comic book, who even asleep has a mind powerful enough to disturb everyone... And if he were freed from his cell deep beneath the earth, would spread a hive mind across the planet in days, subsuming civilians, heroes, and villains alike into eternal torment. He's not something that's meant to happen in actuality, he's a potential that the players strive against, much like the Ebon Dragon subsuming all of Creation into his personal playland of eternal darkness. I wouldn't want to play in a game ruled by the Ebon Dragon, nor one ruled by Sacheverell. Sure is a good thing the plotline is going to consist of me working against them, rather than the description of what they WOULD do if freed being somehow real.

Always remember that 'If they could, they would do X' and 'X will happen' are very different things. Goals don't always succeed.

(As for Samsara being the metaplot: It is at most the metaplot of things under Samsara, and can always fail to come up with an answer. If the ST says "This exists outside Samsara" then it DOES. If he tells the players that Samsara says they will do X... Then that was pretty damn dumb of him, because the players can say "No" - Samsara has no ability to control anyone, save the Maidens when they choose to consult it. It has no mechanics for controlling everyone because there are no mechanics for controlling everyone.)

Tavar

2012-02-13, 02:12 AM

Unfortunately, I can't, as I only browse occasionally. It might just be that I'm too used to picking up minor things in text that no one else pays much heed (all those lit classes, as mentioned).
I'm pretty sure that's it: I've never seen him really swagger unless he's playing a part. And in that case, it's a joke, so taking it seriously is a bit odd.

But they broke the naming pattern! Once the symmetry of the Perfected Principle of Hierarchy is broken, it can never be restored! I am simultaneously joking and being dead serious here.
I can't really answer this, as I realize that people have different standards. But, I think I can definitively say that it's already broken: Green Sun Princes.

Sol's defining trait is the struggle to maintain opposing Virtues. Instead of playing him up like Superman (who has had several different writeups himself) or really making his character about the struggle itself, they've made him about failing to rise to the challenge. He's not Exalted, but he is the archetype of perfection from which they are modeled. He should be everything they strive to surpass, even if they decide to go on the world-explody route, not some lazy, arrogant, foolish prick that even the decidedly "good guy" Solars want to off.
Failing a struggle does not mean that their isn't a struggle. Further more, I don't really see a way to escape the fact that he's failed: it's canon that he didn't help during the Crusade or Contagion.

Also, here's a piece I wrote, that I think answers you perfectly.

This has to do with the relationship between Solars and the Unconquered Sun, and why it informs his character. Many berate the Sun for staying in virtual seclusion, but I think at least some of this can be answered by how he viewed the Solars in the First Age.

I think all of the Incarna view the Exalted a bit similar to how parents view their children. And, the Sun saw the solars grow in power such that they dwarfed him. More than that, he saw as their power increased they became divorced from Humanity, and at this point I think he started seeing echo's of the Fallen Primordials in them as well. But, of course, he couldn't do anything: not without breaking his word that Creation was for the Exalted.

So he turned his face from them, as they grew ever worse.

Then the Usurpation happened, and this is what really sealed his course of action. Because, he knows that part of what drove the Sidereals to put forward the prophecy was that he turned his back from his chosen. And thus, he is partially to blame for the death of his children. Not just that, even: to continue his promise, he can't be involved, even when his children are brutally murdered for century upon century. Moreover, he's not even sure if, had he not promised, that he should become involved.

So, he stays away, consigning his children to death after death after death, because that is the will of those he left the world to.

Luna...still manages to not really be defined well. I mean, that's kind of the point to her character, but should we really be learning more about her from her brief dialogue with Laashe in an Ink Monkeys essay than in Glories: Luna?

The Maidens are likewise not defined well, but in this case because they're supposed to have an air of mystery about them. They certainly have well-developed personalities in the fanon, but canonically, most of what we know is that they lie around Samsara like the Princess Leia cosplayers to its Jabba the Hutt.
That's...what? First off, you said before that " It might just be that I'm too used to picking up minor things in text that no one else pays much heed (all those lit classes, as mentioned)."

Why then did this not happen for either of the books? There's plenty of characterization there, it's simply not spelled out by first saying "the character of Lunar is as follows". Even then, there's parts where they clearly define the different characters.

As for the Maidens...bwa? There's quite a bit of personality revealed on pages 5-7, more than enough for beings meant to be mysterious, especially coupled with the fact that the ST is meant to have leeway with the characters.

And, well, yes, they aren't nice, in Human Terms. But asking someone to be nice in that way when their job is to make sure everyone dies at their appointed time is...somewhat demanding, to say the least.

As far as circle morality goes, it's one thing for players to sit down, look at the books, and decide on what sort of morality they want to play. It's quite another for all the players to up and say "You know, Sol is actually kind of a ****. I feel bad for Malfeas," as a personal viewpoint. Siding with the Yozis should require the same sort of grim conviction as Master Asia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHvUmavNj4g) (even though he decided he was wrong).
True, but you haven't really show that this applies to the Incarna.

The problem isn't with Samsara per se, so much as Sacheverell. Turning the concept of a railroading ST into an actual game construct is silly.
Lucky thing that there are only conjectures about his power, and the fact that he's one thing that Heaven and Hell work together to keep quiescent.

Anyways, calling it railroading makes it sound silly. Well, duh, railroading is a pejorative term. What Sacheverell does is turn the world from one with Free will into one without: making everything predefined. That sounds much worse for me.

Drascin

2012-02-13, 03:16 AM

This...isn't true. There have been things that the forums have criticized, and done so heavily.

And for that, those that have, have been frequently roasted.

I think a guy named Shyft is making some "friends" at the moment by expressing his dislike of how the current freelancers do things, in a thread that's probably still there. Or how, when Reminescent Oasis disliked what MoJ had to say on Lunars, people were basically calling him "mindless Chicken Little that needs to have his butt wiped to think" even as the actual writers came and explained. Thankfully, he had the Lunar Fan Contingent in there to help him.

Basically, in the WW forum, don't mention something negative about the freelancers unless you are ready to defend your argument with blood and fire and for the thread to go to twelve pages. People like EarthScorpion or Inugami, who have really strong convictions about the game, are willing to do this, but most people just don't feel it worth the hassle. This was a bit of a problem, incidentally, given I never seemed to agree with Neph on anything, ever. I'm pretty sure that if you gave us both a tuned atomic clock and asked us the time, each of us would see different times :smalltongue:.

There's a reason I rarely post twice in the same thread there. I'm not willing to get into a dicussion in the WW forums. I just do random commenting, and even that took me a while to do rather than lurking, after I was basically cussed out the door by a few "forum bigs" on my third post in the old forum before the site change.

Story Time

2012-02-13, 06:26 AM

For how it gets into my games without my permission? Stating something as canon adds it to the preconceptions people bring to a game. Unless I specifically call it out as not existing, they assume it is there. I have to specifically remove it from my game to get rid of it once an Ink Monkey has put it in text form.

And I'm sure there are quite a few of us that are aware that just because something is canon doesn't mean it's a good idea or makes any kind of reasonable sense.

...the official contributors probably make things because they think those things are good ideas in some way and will further...improve ( this is used for the lack of a more appropriate word ) Exalted. And if that is their intention then that's good. I can be glad that they're at least trying. But really having too many chefs in the kitchen is a recipe for disaster.

I was once educated by someone with a degree in psychology. The point of one particular lesson was that with selective polling the greater the number of people that contribute to a poll the more accurate it is ( within the demographic being polled ). But that equation doesn't work when applied to contributors, official or not.

Really, the diversity and contradiction in the canon of Exalted is exactly the reason why I like newbie games. The fewer the preconceptions in the players the more fun everyone has discovering the game.

Andreaz

2012-02-13, 06:51 AM

Liminals and Lunars are...complicated. As with most everyone I had a knee-jerk aversion to a new splat, and I probably won't like it for the same reason I don't like abyssals, or anything death-themed at all... But I won't diss them until I actually read them.
Lunars... The problem I have with lunars is not quite with them, but with the players I know personally who play them. They're the ones who believe fanatically in the ways of oWoD werewolves. I hate the shamanistic ecoterrorist archetypes. (Then again, I hate everything oWoD and only M:tA pleases me enough to be playable in nWoD)

Kyeudo

2012-02-13, 08:21 AM

They are? I don't recall someone holding a gun to your head telling you to use them or else...

See, this sort of attitude is one I'd expect over there.

Let me give you some concrete examples of stuff that I find annoying about the game line. Let's take the Daystar. Guess what? I hate the Daystar as written up by the Ink Monkeys. Giving the Unconquered Sun a giant battlestation that is so much better than anything a PC could ever hope to make himself is something that I don't think should have happened, especially since it was made ages before the height of magitechnology. In my games, the Daystar is a giant ball of fire in the sky and that's it. But guess what? Unless I specifically call out this tidbit of information to my players and they are as well read on the line as I am, they will believe the Daystar to be a giant space battlestation.

If it were just this one little tidbit of fluff, fine, I can call that out. But its not. The number of things I have to houserule out of my game because I find them stupid or not fitting with the kind of story I want to tell just keeps piling up. Everything in Glories of the Most High, Half-Castes, the Dawn Solution, Throne Shadow Style, nanites being behind Chaya's seasonal madness, the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress, the Primordials being animate Charm sets, etc. At this point, I'd have to rewrite the entire line's fluff and then give my players a copy just to get us all on the same page.

This...isn't true. There have been things that the forums have criticized, and done so heavily.

If so, it hasn't happened while I was looking. I've found like one thread where two people said they didn't like something the Ink Monkeys have done. They got drowned out in shouts of "How dare you question our benevolent hamster overlords!!!"

I'm not so sure about that. First off, I don't think they're that likely to do such an act at first. I think it would only really get that bad after a bit of discussion. Secondly, I think that's because your view seems, well, wrong. You've brought up these arguments before, and they seem to mostly rely on twisted meanings/preconceptions.

Every time I bring up Samsara as superfate, I get told "it doesn't work like that." Guess what? If there is something that can predict the future and IS NEVER WRONG, its superfate. I don't need to hear about collapsing the waveform or quantum states or any of that nonsense. They have made Exalted an explicitly deterministic universe with a Fate that you can not fight. I don't see how I'm twisting any meanings here.

Oh. I get it. Your problem is that someone else is in charge of the gameline, instead of you, and thus you don't get veto power over what goes on. And, I guess, that the gameline is still active, instead of dead.

Nope. The line being alive is awesome. They kick out lots of cool stuff that I would never think of, like Autochthonia or Infernals. They just keep making big decisions about how the setting is for me. I don't get to pick where her Redness actually is anymore. She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.

tonberrian

2012-02-13, 08:41 AM

Let me give you some concrete examples of stuff that I find annoying about the game line. Let's take the Daystar. Guess what? I hate the Daystar as written up by the Ink Monkeys. Giving the Unconquered Sun a giant battlestation that is so much better than anything a PC could ever hope to make himself is something that I don't think should have happened, especially since it was made ages before the height of magitechnology. In my games, the Daystar is a giant ball of fire in the sky and that's it. But guess what? Unless I specifically call out this tidbit of information to my players and they are as well read on the line as I am, they will believe the Daystar to be a giant space battlestation.

1. If a PC wanted to make a better battlestation than the Daystar, they can. If you disagree, that's you telling them they can't.

the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress

2. This explicitly isn't canon.

Every time I bring up Samsara as superfate, I get told "it doesn't work like that." Guess what? If there is something that can predict the future and IS NEVER WRONG, its superfate. I don't need to hear about collapsing the waveform or quantum states or any of that nonsense. They have made Exalted an explicitly deterministic universe with a Fate that you can not fight. I don't see how I'm twisting any meanings here.

3. Samsara doesn't work like that. It is explicitly fallible.

She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.

4. The existence of the ring does not explicitly say that the Scarlet Empress is in Malfeas. You can do what ever you please with her. If the players continue to expect that Her Redness is going to be in Hell, that's the fault of stupid players, not the writers.

Andreaz

2012-02-13, 08:46 AM

Everything in Glories of the Most High, Half-Castes, the Dawn Solution, Throne Shadow Style, nanites being behind Chaya's seasonal madness, the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress, the Primordials being animate Charm sets, etc. At this point, I'd have to rewrite the entire line's fluff and then give my players a copy just to get us all on the same page.
I think everyone hates half-castes :p
Dawn Solution, specifically, I don't see why one would have a problem with. But I'll just wait and let you explain that if you want to.

If so, it hasn't happened while I was looking. I've found like one thread where two people said they didn't like something the Ink Monkeys have done. They got drowned out in shouts of "How dare you question our benevolent hamster overlords!!!"

XD Yeah. I don't think it'd be different with other groups, though :|

Nope. The line being alive is awesome. They kick out lots of cool stuff that I would never think of, like Autochthonia or Infernals. They just keep making big decisions about how the setting is for me. I don't get to pick where her Redness actually is anymore. She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.
Except it doesn't... RotSE isn't canon. The problem is that's not clear until someone goes and talks about it.

Kyeudo... You are complaining that the setting is full of decisions you didn't like. That's a good thing.
But not taking the fight to the people that actually make the setting... That just makes you another nameless detractor.

Madwand

2012-02-13, 09:02 AM

If it were just this one little tidbit of fluff, fine, I can call that out. But its not. The number of things I have to houserule out of my game because I find them stupid or not fitting with the kind of story I want to tell just keeps piling up. Everything in Glories of the Most High, Half-Castes, the Dawn Solution, Throne Shadow Style, nanites being behind Chaya's seasonal madness, the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress, the Primordials being animate Charm sets, etc. At this point, I'd have to rewrite the entire line's fluff and then give my players a copy just to get us all on the same page.

I have no idea what your prolem with canon is? All books are for MG to cherry-pick from them. Stop interpreting RPG setting as an "realisticly fictional" world. It is a toolbox for storytellers. If your players mix their character knowledge and all what they read.. suprise them. For example if they think that Mount Metagalopala being A SECRET FLOATY BASE HIDDEN IN A FLOATY MOUNTAIN is great start to begin world conquer change it into sleeping Behemoth.. and watch the panic when they wake it up :smallwink:

Friv

2012-02-13, 09:18 AM

Before I get into a counter-argument, I'm going to do a really tiny little mini-rant for a moment: The Scarlet Empress was always in Hell, about to be the bride of the Ebon Dragon. The canonicity of this has not changed since 1e Dragon-Bloods, which was like the fourth book written for the line, and it remains exactly as true now as it was then - probably true. The idea that this is some out-of-nowhere shocking twist isn't really supported by anything.

But that's just my pet peeve. Sorry. Anyway - the problem is, there's no way around your complaint. The writers can't stop making new information, or the game line dies. Now, if you don't like specific things, hell, don't use them. Tell your players that they don't get to assume that everything written in the books is true. Tell them that anyways. Make sure everyone knows that everything written in books that, say, a Lore 2 character knows are true, and everything else you reserve the right to change totally. I've run games where the Great Contagion was a Primordial, where the Mask of Winters broke the Seal of Eight Divinities as part of his millenia-long plot with Autochthon, where the Deathlords were decent people or where the Sidereals were all one unified anti-Solar force that had stamped out its dissent centuries before. If my players complained, I would say, "Hey, guess what. Your characters don't get to know things that they don't have the Lore or backstory for. Suck it up."

Drascin

2012-02-13, 09:33 AM

1. If a PC wanted to make a better battlestation than the Daystar, they can. If you disagree, that's you telling them they can't.

Not just him, really, pretty much any ST isn't going to let the players make a Daystar, in the same way most STs aren't going to let a Dragonblooded make Charms that are stronger than a Solar's equivalent-essence ones. There's always outliers, of course, but on average, it's not really going to happen in a campaign.

vegetalss4

2012-02-13, 10:01 AM

Not just him, really, pretty much any ST isn't going to let the players make a Daystar, in the same way most STs aren't going to let a Dragonblooded make Charms that are stronger than a Solar's equivalent-essence ones. There's always outliers, of course, but on average, it's not really going to happen in a campaign.

Those two things aren't equivalent at all, nor is it in any way a fair comparison:smallannoyed:.

One could however argue that the players won't be able to make a daystar in the average game in the same way that they won't be able to make a directional titan in an average game. Because the average game simply don't deal with the amount of time and resources that would require.
But even then one still has the directional titans as something that is more awesome than any battle station the players are going to build.

Rikandur Azebol

2012-02-13, 10:11 AM

I agree Directional Titan is thousand times more awesome than floating Deathstar/Prison. :smallbiggrin:

DT can be used to explore/create worlds ! Daystar only blows stuff up. We have Sword of Creation already. :smallwink:

Story Time

2012-02-13, 10:12 AM

In my games, the Daystar is a giant ball of fire in the sky and that's it.

So...can you make a list and share it of all the stuff that you'd House Rule as either different or non-existent in your games? I'd like to see a document about it, if you don't mind. Please?

Drascin

2012-02-13, 10:23 AM

Those two things aren't equivalent at all, nor is it in any way a fair comparison:smallannoyed:.

Don't see why not. A player of a Dragonblooded managing to make Charms that go leagues beyond the rest of his splat and a player of a crafter making an artifact that goes far beyond anything the rest of his splat can make seem roughly comparable. Even basic Artifact N/As are not something you really have a way to build, after all, and the Daystar is way, way, WAY beyond a pretty much any other Artifact N/A that exists in the game. The Five Metal Shrike is an N/A Artifact - the Daystar is so much more than the Shrike is. Where the Shrike is just a very fast ship with a very big cannon, the Daystar is a battlestation, a character, a giant robot, a temple, a mini-Valhalla for a bunch of ghosts, a prison, one of if not the best forge ever, the only thing that keeps Creation alive with its warmth, and I don't even remember what else.

Hell, I'm actually rather surprised you would consider making something as universe-defining as the Daystar as being less of a stretch for an ST than allowing a single Dragonblooded to have stronger charms. I honestly thought I was being rather generous in the comparison - I actually would assume an ST is waaaaaaaaay more likely to give a character some bigger charms (which in the grand scheme of things matter absolutely nothing) than make something like the Daystar.

MickJay

2012-02-13, 10:35 AM

Kyeudo - I understand you perfectly well and sympathise, but you've already mentioned the solution to your problem. Make a list of the fluff that's explicitly not true in your game and give it to your players. It could be a list of facts or splat books, but it should stop the players from shoving in 'canon' facts into the game. As a player, I've both done and seen done what irritates you, but it's a fairly simple thing to just make a document starting with something along the lines of "these things are different from the game canon for this game [list to follow], any fluff or mechanics published after this document was written are not true for this game, unless explicitly stated otherwise".

Gensh

2012-02-13, 10:49 AM

The Unconquered Sun is not Superman. Superman does not have 5 in every Virtue, and even if he did, it wouldn't affect him the same way it does the Sun.

I merely stated that because he's the most frequently used example. Another example would be Adam West's Batman, but that would be silly. :smalltongue:

Reduced to the position of living sexual trophies, all while resisting at every turn, and filled with loathing for their new "master?" :smalltongue:

Oh, wait, cosplayers. Still don't think the analogy fits, though. :smallconfused:

Well, it's pretty obvious from a perspective outside the setting (or inside the setting with enough life experience) that looking into Samsara is really really dumb. I can't help but think the Maidens all have Stockholm Syndrome and Samsara is an abusive boyfriend..

Also, if Samsara is not the problem, then you shouldn't have said that Samsara was the problem. :smalltongue:

I was just continuing along the lines of Kyeudo's argument. That predetermination exists within the setting beyond the extremely-punchable Loom is a flaw; Sidereal Charms shouldn't need an external power source.

Sacheverell is not a railroading ST by default; look upon him more as the horribly powerful telepath in a comic book, who even asleep has a mind powerful enough to disturb everyone... And if he were freed from his cell deep beneath the earth, would spread a hive mind across the planet in days, subsuming civilians, heroes, and villains alike into eternal torment. He's not something that's meant to happen in actuality, he's a potential that the players strive against, much like the Ebon Dragon subsuming all of Creation into his personal playland of eternal darkness. I wouldn't want to play in a game ruled by the Ebon Dragon, nor one ruled by Sacheverell. Sure is a good thing the plotline is going to consist of me working against them, rather than the description of what they WOULD do if freed being somehow real.

The problem with this is that for the game to be "real," there has to be a certain amount of risk. There has to be the definite possibility for the worst ending to happen because the PCs decided to kill a vital NPC or something. I don't mean just a dumb knee jerk "You killed this NPC so game over!" thing like in an Elder Scrolls game, but rather that the sum of their actions is what decides the way the plot is shaped. The players in my last game stole the Final Maelstrom from Faffles, and the Dusk redeemed herself in a fight with Meticulous Owl. That drove Steve to flip out and start the Return early, just so he could take a pot shot at them with the Realm Defense Grid. They weren't really prepared for the Return, but they knew it was Steve behind everything Faffles had done, so they should have expected some form of petty retaliation. Such a situation, though, is not unwinnable. Sacheverell waking up fairly explicitly is, as his Vision somehow surpasses even Malfeas' Tyranny and Isidoros' Might.

(As for Samsara being the metaplot: It is at most the metaplot of things under Samsara, and can always fail to come up with an answer. If the ST says "This exists outside Samsara" then it DOES. If he tells the players that Samsara says they will do X... Then that was pretty damn dumb of him, because the players can say "No" - Samsara has no ability to control anyone, save the Maidens when they choose to consult it. It has no mechanics for controlling everyone because there are no mechanics for controlling everyone.)

But the only thing that exists beyond Samsara are the players, unless the ST is Prof. X or something. But think about it - even if free, the players will he hard pressed to merely avoid dying. All those previously-helpful NPCs are reduced to using the version of the world's script as interpreted by a Yozi. They'd be in just as much trouble as a circle that incarnated during the Empress' reign.

I can't really answer this, as I realize that people have different standards. But, I think I can definitively say that it's already broken: Green Sun Princes.

I never saw it that way. Prince stands alongside Vizier and Steward just fine. The "Green Sun" phrase is required to distinguish them from the uncorrupted Princes of the Earth.

Failing a struggle does not mean that their isn't a struggle. Further more, I don't really see a way to escape the fact that he's failed: it's canon that he didn't help during the Crusade or Contagion.

While many would still consider it kind of a **** move, the reason why he did not act during the Contagion or Crusade could easily have been the same reason why he does not vaporize Thorns - they are of human design. He would be a much more sympathetic character if, for all his inherent perfection and unending effort, he simply could not get the Celestial Bureaucracy to move as parallel to how no one really listens to Malfeas anymore. He can fire a bureaucrat, but twenty more will help the offender get his job back. Sol himself is caught up in memories of the good old days and can't bring himself to vaporize the sorry lot.

Why then did this not happen for either of the books? There's plenty of characterization there, it's simply not spelled out by first saying "the character of Lunar is as follows". Even then, there's parts where they clearly define the different characters.

As for the Maidens...bwa? There's quite a bit of personality revealed on pages 5-7, more than enough for beings meant to be mysterious, especially coupled with the fact that the ST is meant to have leeway with the characters.

It is not particularly sufficient. The given descriptions define more the offices of the Incarnae, rather than the holders of those offices. Certain personal preferences such as forms would change between holders, so they can provide a modicum of character, but such is not the same sort of characterization that many other movers and shakers possess. I expected at least as much characterization as is given the Deathlords, even if much of the writing is merely "the ST can do this or this or this or even make something up." Instead, the amount of description is hardly more than is allotted to any demon in RoD II, where many had to be described in a single chapter.

And, well, yes, they aren't nice, in Human Terms. But asking someone to be nice in that way when their job is to make sure everyone dies at their appointed time is...somewhat demanding, to say the least.

This is inapplicable to Sol, Luna, Mercury, Venus, and possibly Jupiter.

I don't get to pick where her Redness actually is anymore. She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.

Nah. I'm using Return as a guideline, and she isn't even in hell most of time. As a specific example, she attended the wedding of an Abyssal NPC in the secret lair of Ma-Ha-Suchi. The Moonsilver PC nearly had a threesome with her and Ligier before the Dawn very subtly informed her exactly who those two peculiarly attractive people were.

Not just him, really, pretty much any ST isn't going to let the players make a Daystar, in the same way most STs aren't going to let a Dragonblooded make Charms that are stronger than a Solar's equivalent-essence ones. There's always outliers, of course, but on average, it's not really going to happen in a campaign.

I've considered resolving this issue with a series of Charms of which you can only take one. Whichever you choose, you gain the ability to do plot device-level shenanigans from time to time, such as making Five Metal Shrike II: Shrike Harder. :smalltongue:

Though as to that, I suppose I should mention that in my game the Shrike was the key to Voltron-ing the Daystar, the Silver Chair, the Final Maelstrom, the Loom, and a yet-to-be-defined jade battlestation hidden under the Imperial Mountain.

Weimann

2012-02-13, 10:54 AM

On Liminals: I too had a distinct "but you'll ruin it!" when I heard about them. Still, the current writers have yet to dissapoint me with a published book. I will hold my pease until I have something tangible to critizise.

On Holden: Holden's got an attitude, but I've always seen it as a persona for the sake of publicity than anything else. He's sometimes wrong, as is everyone. I like him. If anything, I've a bigger problem with hatewheel.

On the White Wolf forum in general: It can be harsh, but it's been much harsher. I've no problem with the current climate there. The bigest problem as I see it is that sometimes, discussion meant as "what do you think will happen if I do this in my game" turns out as "why this whouldn't happen in the canon setting".

tonberrian

2012-02-13, 11:15 AM

Building a bigger, better battle station than the Daystar is more equivalent to a Dragonblooded achieving Essence 8 or more. It does not come up in the average game. In fact, it should only come up as a campaign sculpting event, like a really powerful Miracle Shell.

Fluff-wise, it is an extraordinary event among extraordinary events. But all the fluff implies that it is possible. The only reason you can't is because the ST says so.

Sallera

2012-02-13, 11:59 AM

I never saw it that way. Prince stands alongside Vizier and Steward just fine. The "Green Sun" phrase is required to distinguish them from the uncorrupted Princes of the Earth.

Isn't Warlock the Green Sun Prince equivalent to those terms? As has been mentioned, Infernal covers akuma as well, so it doesn't fit into the same place in the terminology. (Personally, I think Chernozem works fine, but given how little we have to go on, it's rather hard to say at this point.)

If so, it hasn't happened while I was looking. I've found like one thread where two people said they didn't like something the Ink Monkeys have done. They got drowned out in shouts of "How dare you question our benevolent hamster overlords!!!"

I don't know if it happened on the forums themselves, but I think Ivory Pestle was proof enough that even the Ink Monkeys can get pretty viciously called out when they make a big enough mistake.

Guancyto

2012-02-13, 12:40 PM

I don't know if it happened on the forums themselves, but I think Ivory Pestle was proof enough that even the Ink Monkeys can get pretty viciously called out when they make a big enough mistake.

It did. Very extensively. Cobra Style (which IIRC was Holden's baby) and Lightspeed Body Dynamics as well.

Sometimes the Ink Monkeys output terrible mechanics, and they're not immune to being called out on them.

But they do get a the benefit of the doubt most of the time.

Lix Lorn

2012-02-13, 01:10 PM

Nah. I'm using Return as a guideline, and she isn't even in hell most of time. As a specific example, she attended the wedding of an Abyssal NPC in the secret lair of Ma-Ha-Suchi. The Moonsilver PC nearly had a threesome with her and Ligier before the Dawn very subtly informed her exactly who those two peculiarly attractive people were.
Okay, can I play in one of your games?

Tavar

2012-02-13, 02:55 PM

See, this sort of attitude is one I'd expect over there.
No, it's the attitude that's pretty much universal. I've seen it plenty of times on the boards, usually in the 3.5 section.

You're complaining that the line is making new material that you then must use in your game. He's pointing out that must doesn't factor into it: no one is forcing you to. This is a direct answer to your complaint.

Well, I guess it's an answer to your direct complaint. The more subtle complaint is that they aren't simply doing things that you approve of. Which, well, yeah, it kinda sucks, but it's inevitable, as you are not in command of the line. That would be a valid complaint, but one that there really isn't an answer for.

If it were just this one little tidbit of fluff, fine, I can call that out. But its not. The number of things I have to houserule out of my game because I find them stupid or not fitting with the kind of story I want to tell just keeps piling up. Everything in Glories of the Most High, Half-Castes, the Dawn Solution, Throne Shadow Style, nanites being behind Chaya's seasonal madness, the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress, the Primordials being animate Charm sets, etc. At this point, I'd have to rewrite the entire line's fluff and then give my players a copy just to get us all on the same page.
It seems like you have less a problem with the current developers than a problem with Exalted's history, going as far back as 1ed. But decide to blame it on the current crop.

If so, it hasn't happened while I was looking. I've found like one thread where two people said they didn't like something the Ink Monkeys have done. They got drowned out in shouts of "How dare you question our benevolent hamster overlords!!!"
I've seen several where people are extremely critical of them, and yet nothing like that line get's tossed out.

Every time I bring up Samsara as superfate, I get told "it doesn't work like that." Guess what? If there is something that can predict the future and IS NEVER WRONG, its superfate. I don't need to hear about collapsing the waveform or quantum states or any of that nonsense. They have made Exalted an explicitly deterministic universe with a Fate that you can not fight. I don't see how I'm twisting any meanings here.
But it can be wrong. Just like you are extremely wrong now.

Also, ignoring their arguments because it might threaten your preconceptions is a pretty poor strategy.

Nope. The line being alive is awesome. They kick out lots of cool stuff that I would never think of, like Autochthonia or Infernals. They just keep making big decisions about how the setting is for me. I don't get to pick where her Redness actually is anymore. She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.
Objectively false: the wedding band makes no mention of the supposed bride's identity, any more than any book outside of Return of the Scarlet Empress does. It hints at it, yes, but there are many, many hints in the setting. And the hints are never required to be true. Hence, you know, the whole Non-canon aspect of RoTSE.

Also, I can't take your statement that you welcome new content, because your whole complaint about the Daystar is that the new content is bad.

Finally, some of your problems seem to be fanon standing in for canon. The Primordial's as simply sentient charm trees, for example.

And for that, those that have, have been frequently roasted.

I think a guy named Shyft is making some "friends" at the moment by expressing his dislike of how the current freelancers do things, in a thread that's probably still there.
Shyft is making 'friends' because his view isn't the same as everyone's, plus some of his statements are incredibly...not offensive, I guess, but almost designed to get a rise out of people.
I mean "The writers no longer have the talent."

Also, the fact that his arguments as to why something is bad seem to consist of "It's bad because I don't like it because it's bad", well, yeah, not a great way to convince others. Oh, and he has a tendency to make statements about what we really don't know, and portray them as fact. Like the new Exalt type stealing the Abyssals place: that's apparently not true, and even if it was going to be true, we hardly have any evidence of it yet. Never mind that it's been stated that it isn't the case. So in addition to this, he comes off as a bit of a liar.

He also has a bit of a history on the board, apparently, and not a positive one. So, that doesn't help matters.

Or how, when Reminescent Oasis disliked what MoJ had to say on Lunars, people were basically calling him "mindless Chicken Little that needs to have his butt wiped to think" even as the actual writers came and explained. Thankfully, he had the Lunar Fan Contingent in there to help him.
What.

The first part of the thread was extremely civil. I'm re-reading(well, skimming) it to see if that changed, but from what I remember, it never got nasty. I think your placing way to much emphasis on your preconceptions.

Basically, in the WW forum, don't mention something negative about the freelancers unless you are ready to defend your argument with blood and fire and for the thread to go to twelve pages.
I feel this is a grave misrepresentation. As much as your "all solars everywhere are world-ending-baby-rapers".

I merely stated that because he's the most frequently used example. Another example would be Adam West's Batman, but that would be silly. :smalltongue:
And Superman's a bad example, even then. Solars are more equivalent to superman, being, you know, Human and everything.

Well, it's pretty obvious from a perspective outside the setting (or inside the setting with enough life experience) that looking into Samsara is really really dumb. I can't help but think the Maidens all have Stockholm Syndrome and Samsara is an abusive boyfriend..
The Maidens don't like looking at Samsara, because even though it can give them a power boost it largely takes away their free will(but, only their free will).

I was just continuing along the lines of Kyeudo's argument. That predetermination exists within the setting beyond the extremely-punchable Loom is a flaw; Sidereal Charms shouldn't need an external power source.
If samsara isn't fallible, it is only because it doesn't give an answer unless it does know what is going to happen.

And, it is necessary, because Sidereals can predict things that are outside of fate, and thus the Loom's jurisdiction. And, do so to a much more reliable degree than if the Loom did cover the area. Samsara fills this gap.

The problem with this is that for the game to be "real," there has to be a certain amount of risk. There has to be the definite possibility for the worst ending to happen because the PCs decided to kill a vital NPC or something. I don't mean just a dumb knee jerk "You killed this NPC so game over!" thing like in an Elder Scrolls game, but rather that the sum of their actions is what decides the way the plot is shaped. The players in my last game stole the Final Maelstrom from Faffles, and the Dusk redeemed herself in a fight with Meticulous Owl. That drove Steve to flip out and start the Return early, just so he could take a pot shot at them with the Realm Defense Grid. They weren't really prepared for the Return, but they knew it was Steve behind everything Faffles had done, so they should have expected some form of petty retaliation. Such a situation, though, is not unwinnable. Sacheverell waking up fairly explicitly is, as his Vision somehow surpasses even Malfeas' Tyranny and Isidoros' Might.
Note that this is partially fanon: we don't actually know what Sacheverell's power is, how it would manifest, or anything. We have a hint that it involves Samsara, but if you'll notice, the hint is only that it might involve Samsara. And, even if it did, we aren't sure what this would entail.

So, in other words, Fans complaining that Fanon ruins the games canon, and thus the developers are to blame.

But the only thing that exists beyond Samsara are the players, unless the ST is Prof. X or something. But think about it - even if free, the players will he hard pressed to merely avoid dying. All those previously-helpful NPCs are reduced to using the version of the world's script as interpreted by a Yozi. They'd be in just as much trouble as a circle that incarnated during the Empress' reign.
That's fanon. Unless you have a statement that backs it up.

I never saw it that way. Prince stands alongside Vizier and Steward just fine. The "Green Sun" phrase is required to distinguish them from the uncorrupted Princes of the Earth.
Either Green Sun Princes or Warlock is their counterpart to Solar.

While many would still consider it kind of a **** move, the reason why he did not act during the Contagion or Crusade could easily have been the same reason why he does not vaporize Thorns - they are of human design. He would be a much more sympathetic character if, for all his inherent perfection and unending effort, he simply could not get the Celestial Bureaucracy to move as parallel to how no one really listens to Malfeas anymore. He can fire a bureaucrat, but twenty more will help the offender get his job back. Sol himself is caught up in memories of the good old days and can't bring himself to vaporize the sorry lot.
This doesn't really work given the setting's description of Heaven. He's the king, the undisputed master of heaven. The other god's fear his involvement, because he would get them back on track.

Furthermore, that's at least partially why he doesn't: he ceded Creation to the chosen, and to interfere would be to break a promise. Something that would be extremely hard to do for him, because he is inherently honest.

Finally, I notice you haven't answered the little explanation I posted, so I'll ask you again. Given the fact that he's a Father who has had to kill his children, and also sign off on the repeated killing of his children for over 1500 years, what do you expect?

It is not particularly sufficient. The given descriptions define more the offices of the Incarnae, rather than the holders of those offices. Certain personal preferences such as forms would change between holders, so they can provide a modicum of character, but such is not the same sort of characterization that many other movers and shakers possess. I expected at least as much characterization as is given the Deathlords, even if much of the writing is merely "the ST can do this or this or this or even make something up." Instead, the amount of description is hardly more than is allotted to any demon in RoD II, where many had to be described in a single chapter.
Well, first off, RoD II was about 5 times the size of the Glories books, and the books included quite a bit of material that was meant for the players. Never mind that, for Maidens, you're looking at 5 characters to describe.

Additionally, I think you're selling the books short: there's quite a bit of personality given in the passages. Every action it lists one of the Incarna doing informs their personality to a degree. Yes, those are their offices, but they are gods. The office and the god are interlinked very tightly.

You seem to want them to be human, but they aren't, and to ask them to be would, in my opinion, be a disservice to the setting, by making what is mythological and wondrous into the mundane.

This is inapplicable to Sol, Luna, Mercury, Venus, and possibly Jupiter.
Can you give examples of how the latter 4 aren't nice? Actually, Jupiter likely gets a bye because of her domain: keeping secrets isn't something that's easy, or something that's going to make you a well-adjusted individual.

Drascin

2012-02-13, 04:22 PM

Shyft is making 'friends' because his view isn't the same as everyone's, plus some of his statements are incredibly...not offensive, I guess, but almost designed to get a rise out of people.
I mean "The writers no longer have the talent."

Also, the fact that his arguments as to why something is bad seem to consist of "It's bad because I don't like it because it's bad", well, yeah, not a great way to convince others. Oh, and he has a tendency to make statements about what we really don't know, and portray them as fact. Like the new Exalt type stealing the Abyssals place: that's apparently not true, and even if it was going to be true, we hardly have any evidence of it yet. Never mind that it's been stated that it isn't the case. So in addition to this, he comes off as a bit of a liar.

He also has a bit of a history on the board, apparently, and not a positive one. So, that doesn't help matters.

Indeed, his manners are really quite nothing to write home about, and he seems entirely convinced that what he considers good is always and undeniably good, and what he considers bad is always and undeniably bad. But then, neither are those of a lot of highly popular people there, in all honesty. Nocte (though I will admit Nocte has pacified a lot) or Octopoid come to mind most readily, as would Sojiko if he hadn't become somewhat stranded from the forum.

Though I will say that in truth, the most annoying thing in that thread is neither Shyft nor the people arguing with him for or against the freelancers, but rather Mouse. I just mentioned it because it was in the front page, but perhaps it rather diluted my point. Ah well .

I feel this is a grave misrepresentation. As much as your "all solars everywhere are world-ending-baby-rapers".

Now who's misrepresenting who? :smalltongue:

In any case, the WW forums are a lot better than they were when I joined. You actually can have conversations there now. And I figure you can map that directly to the freelancers, in fact, as the new material keeps people happier and less willing to rip each other's head off for disagreeing on Abyssal virtue interpretations (god in heaven THAT was a bad thread. Bad memories... :smallsigh:). But there are some topics that are just instant wars (goodness of badness of Solars, or Great Prophecy, seem to come to mind instahntly as stuff that will basically kill any thread they're mentioned in, with fire), and badmouthing the freelancers has a better than even chance of making the thread suddenly about arguing that.

Turalisj

2012-02-13, 04:29 PM

I feel this is a grave misrepresentation. As much as your "all solars everywhere are world-ending-baby-rapers".

I thought this was the viewpoint of a certain fae-loving member of the boards?

Weimann

2012-02-13, 04:31 PM

Updates on 2.5 progress. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=57878)

Update 2/13/12 PM 3:06

We had an issue come up over the weekend and we had to backtrack over some work. As a result, we're now putting finishing touches on the 2.5 errata, with Sidereal errata mostly finished but in need of a review. We are still a few days out from posting. The day I send it off to be uploaded I will post an announcement. Keep checking this post for updates.

Tavar

2012-02-13, 05:08 PM

Indeed, his manners are really quite nothing to write home about, and he seems entirely convinced that what he considers good is always and undeniably good, and what he considers bad is always and undeniably bad. But then, neither are those of a lot of highly popular people there, in all honesty. Nocte (though I will admit Nocte has pacified a lot) or Octopoid come to mind most readily, as would Sojiko if he hadn't become somewhat stranded from the forum.

Though I will say that in truth, the most annoying thing in that thread is neither Shyft nor the people arguing with him for or against the freelancers, but rather Mouse.
I'm not so sure about your comparison between him and other posters. I think the key difference is that Shyft comes off as untruthful, and the others largely don't, at least from my experience.

I just mentioned it because it was in the front page, but perhaps it rather diluted my point. Ah well.
Not so much diluted as not supported your argument at all, and in fact possibly detracted from it. After all, you can hardly say that people are jumping all over someone unfairly when that's both not happening and the person in question is coming in extremely hostile.

Now who's misrepresenting who? :smalltongue:
Considering the discussions we've had, or that I've seen, nope. Don't think it's a misrepresentation.

But there are some topics that are just instant wars (goodness of badness of Solars, or Great Prophecy, seem to come to mind instahntly as stuff that will basically kill any thread they're mentioned in, with fire),
The thing is, this forum isn't much different. I mean, go to the 3.5 section, and make a thread on Monks, or Fighter/Wizard balance.

and badmouthing the freelancers has a better than even chance of making the thread suddenly about arguing that.
Depends. Criticism seems to be take decently well, but showing up and saying "the freelancers are all hacks who have no talent" isn't. Almost as if the latter is a needlessly hostile remark designed to get a rise, and not promote discussion.

Rikandur Azebol

2012-02-13, 05:19 PM

I thought this was the viewpoint of a certain fae-loving member of the boards ?

*achoo*

Wait, what ? I do not love Canon Fair Folk, who are pretentious ballerinas. And I dislike 2e Solars because ... if You eat too much chocolate it make You puke.
Mechanics of Solar Charms in 1e, IMO, tried to keep the mechanical side of the setting roughly balanced with charms for other forms of "Walking XP/Markers for Daiclave". Solars got the most potent effects, but the price for said effects was higher in proportion that was easier to track.

In 2e this seem utterly thrown trough the window. Solars are given all the best toys, from mechanical point of view, and the world revolves around them in such nagging way it sickens me. It makes playing other types of Exalts, asides from DBs that were designed as "weaklings", an exercise in playing underdogs. Fluff-wise it might make sense, but from mechanical "fairness" standpoint this is a sin.

That's why I dislike 2e Solars, asides from The Desus. Do You know him ? What a guy ! :smallbiggrin:

tonberrian

2012-02-13, 05:43 PM

I made a thing. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58062)

Another thing, even!

Gensh

2012-02-13, 06:09 PM

Okay, can I play in one of your games?

Maybe whenever I finally start another game. While I'm able to post between classes, I've had enough work this semester that I haven't been able to update Godtrapped at all. :smallredface:

Finally, some of your problems seem to be fanon standing in for canon. The Primordial's as simply sentient charm trees, for example.

I'm going to go ahead and interject here - while Kyuedo may have been wrong about some of those things, there's effectively no line between fanon and canon in Exalted. That Primordials are merely sentient Charm trees isn't necessarily fanon, as there is no further information. Earlier publications make them much more mysterious if more relatable than sentient Charm trees, but as there is no more to work off of than the fact that maiming them causes them to lose Charms, it is a logical and potentially true conclusion. If any publication would define exactly what a Primordial is, then it's Manual: Infernals (unless we get Glories: Yozis).

And Superman's a bad example, even then. Solars are more equivalent to superman, being, you know, Human and everything.

Superman is an alien from a distant planet who somehow gains invulnerability when exposed to yellow sunlight. Yeah, he's human. :smallamused:

Supes is an excellent example because he represents exactly how far Sol is beyond other gods. He is quite literally Perfection Beyond Imagining because he is capable of exceeding his design parameters in order to perform his duties. Gods are bound by their office, but Sol is not.He is beyond gods as the King of Kings was beyond Primordials. His Primordial-given duty is being the Guarding Star. His god-given duty is being King of Heaven, and his self-given duty is being the patron of humanity. He has failed all three duties since he set foot in the Jade Pleasure Dome, proving that his office means very little to him. He is effectively unbound and in that is more like a godblood than anything else.

Note that this is partially fanon: we don't actually know what Sacheverell's power is, how it would manifest, or anything. We have a hint that it involves Samsara, but if you'll notice, the hint is only that it might involve Samsara. And, even if it did, we aren't sure what this would entail.

So, in other words, Fans complaining that Fanon ruins the games canon, and thus the developers are to blame.

We know that his awakening damns all realms of existence to predestination. I mean, that's pretty clear. And now we know what predestination is called.

That's fanon. Unless you have a statement that backs it up.

Sacheverell, who is also called the Abhorrent Prophet Unimagined, dreams only of the present while he slumbers. In waking, however, nothing of the future remains hidden from him, and the doings of Heaven, hell, and Creation alike become locked into the patterns his visions foresee.

This doesn't really work given the setting's description of Heaven. He's the king, the undisputed master of heaven. The other god's fear his involvement, because he would get them back on track.

Aye. I didn't say it was possible but rather that it would have been a better direction to structure the game world so that Sol doesn't just seem lazy.

Furthermore, that's at least partially why he doesn't: he ceded Creation to the chosen, and to interfere would be to break a promise. Something that would be extremely hard to do for him, because he is inherently honest.

Again, aye. But I'd rather not Sol run off of Kantian principles. Breaking an oath to humanity to save it from itself isn't really a bad thing. I mean, the Contagion and subsequent Crusade came really close to outright extinctions.

Finally, I notice you haven't answered the little explanation I posted, so I'll ask you again. Given the fact that he's a Father who has had to kill his children, and also sign off on the repeated killing of his children for over 1500 years, what do you expect?

Perfection. The Valor to return anew with the Dawn. The Temperance to let man rule itself at its Zenith. The Compassion to save it in its Twilight. The Conviction to wait out the Night. The Willpower to drive his children to Eclipse him in all these things.

Sol as written is not a father. He's the drunken, lazy stepfather that is stuck taking care of you when your mother dies - or is cast into hell, as the case may be. Though admittedly this analogy falls apart at the end since what little we know about Cytherea doesn't imply anything more than Kimberian tendencies.

Well, first off, RoD II was about 5 times the size of the Glories books, and the books included quite a bit of material that was meant for the players. Never mind that, for Maidens, you're looking at 5 characters to describe.

Again, both the Deathlords and demons were given a single chapter of description. You'd think that a book specifically about X would have more description than Ligier in a single chapter that has to describe several important demons.

You seem to want them to be human, but they aren't, and to ask them to be would, in my opinion, be a disservice to the setting, by making what is mythological and wondrous into the mundane.

You mean like giving the Deathlords, Incarnae, and Yozis stats in the first place? The reverse of the old adage is not necessarily true: it need not have stats to be killable (though the Deathlord weakness thing was a bit silly). Even if it was, maybe that's what was so impossible about the Exalted victory - that they killed what was without comprehensible statistics. The Deathlords are no longer mysterious avatars of death and destruction. They are cranky oldies who want those whippersnappers off their lawn, where their lawn is the whole world. The Incarnae are no longer beings of legendary might and glory. They are merely really lazy bureaucrats. The Yozis have ceased being grand, mostly unfathomable ancient enemies. They are children that the Exalted maimed for being incapable of understanding adult morality.

Can you give examples of how the latter 4 aren't nice? Actually, Jupiter likely gets a bye because of her domain: keeping secrets isn't something that's easy, or something that's going to make you a well-adjusted individual.

Actually, Luna wins the boobie prize for actually doing her job and even helping Lunars on the side. The Maidens automatically fail for being really boring automatons who don't ever make serious decisions on their own and don't ever say a thing to their Chosen. Assuming they're not Oversight, anyway.
Oversight is totally SWLIHN.

aetherialDawn

2012-02-13, 06:47 PM

The Maidens automatically fail for being really boring automatons who don't ever make serious decisions on their own and don't ever say a thing to their Chosen. Assuming they're not Oversight, anyway.
Nobody said they had to consult Samsara. If they do, it supercharges their charms, and they can plan around their new knowledge... But they also are tied to that. The Maidens are capable of, at their own choice, trading freedom for power (In the form of knowledge and also direct power) within their purviews - or at least, attempting to make that trade, since Samsara doesn't always answer.

Oversight is totally SWLIHN.
Oversight is not SWLiHN. Oversight is made up of what happens when you try to break three perfectly indestructible spheres. Oversight is SWLiHN's nature rebelling against her act of destruction and chaos, attempting to rebuild the pieces of causality that she destroyed.
Within the three spheres that float silently at the center of the infinitely-occluded Oversight office beyond the whole Mask that still exists in potentia where the broken one lies for all others, a place made up only of its own blueprint that was never written, only possible... Within that place, within those spheres, lies SWLiHN's crushing guilt, forever trying to repair things, even as they/it/she knows that half of those once-perfect/still-perfect forms lies in shards across Creation and Hell, the chaos that cannot be undone even if all else might be healed. Where crystal gave way, geometry still remains, however, and SWLiHN was always of patterns rather than of objects, and so in the quiet, perfect harmonies of Fate's patterns, sometimes a strand of purest non-color will wind through, seeking to complete a pattern that extends beyond what remains, enlisting the aid of those who can still reach, through the emulative-yet-expansive field of Martial Arts, the patterns that remain where even patterns were obliterated.
(^ I'm talking about SMA made by Sidereals.)

Drascin

2012-02-13, 07:25 PM

Considering the discussions we've had, or that I've seen, nope. Don't think it's a misrepresentation.

Well, it is, amusingly enough. See, I have said that Solars are easily amongst the most dangerous things to Creation at the moment, several steps above Raksha and pretty much any Exalted splats that aren't the other solaroids. I have said that the requirements for Solar exaltation are actually benefitted by a certain Zapp Brannigann-esque misplaced self-confidence, and that I therefore believe there will be a rather higher percentage of egomaniacal Solars than there'd be on any other group of equal sample size. Much in the same way that a sample size of Lunars will have more people who are unreasonably stubborn and impossible to talk to than pretty much a sample size of anything short of a dwarf community, because being incredibly stubborn and refusing to give up anything ever actively helps you earn a Lunar Exaltation.

That's stuff I have said, and I'm not going to deny it. I have changed my outlook on some of the details, but I did say it. I have never said they're all baby-rapists. A fair amount of them are going to be good people. Even a bunch of those who are egotistical and ridiculously self centered are unlikely to be baby rapists, they'll just be humanly bad (which when you have the kind of near-unstoppable power Solars get, can and may be enough to screw up everything, mind, but still).

And that you think I have, plus the way you seem to basically be arguing in the same way you accuse Kyeudo of doing, is not really doing you any favours on the "you are too colored by your own preconceptions" argument you're making.

Keep in mind - the reasons I personally dislike Solars as a splat, and the reason I think they are one of the biggest risks Creation faces as of the game's starting date, are entirely different things. I dislike them pure and simply because they make the whole gameline orbit around them to an annoying degree, because I'm the kind of guy who refuses to play the top tier characters in any fighting game on principle, and because their metaphysical place as being the best thing in the setting ever and nobody even gets to get somewhat close unless they're also Solars or derivatives grinds on me. But that's just the reasons I personally am not very willing to play a solar, and even like this, they're not even the Exalt I am the least willing to play anyway (Abyssals have that honor).

This is entirely separate from any beliefs I may have about evilness or goodness - besides, really, "in Creation, if you assume everyone is an *******, you'll get it right way more often than you'll get it wrong" is something I've said a few times before, and still applies. To all splats equally, honestly - this is still a White Wolf game :smalltongue:.

But if you do want a summary of my belief about Solar evilness, here's pretty much the sum-up version: individual Solars are humans, and therefore like any humans can be good, bad, or horrible (same applies to pretty much every other splat). However, Solar exaltations have a pretty screwed up way of choosing, plus what ultimate power implies, so the average assholishness of Solars is going to be pretty damn up there. That make sense?

Turalisj

2012-02-13, 07:33 PM

Guys. Maybe everyone should take a break from this little discussion before the moderators get involved? Please?

Tavar

2012-02-13, 07:34 PM

I'm going to go ahead and interject here - while Kyuedo may have been wrong about some of those things, there's effectively no line between fanon and canon in Exalted. That Primordials are merely sentient Charm trees isn't necessarily fanon, as there is no further information. Earlier publications make them much more mysterious if more relatable than sentient Charm trees, but as there is no more to work off of than the fact that maiming them causes them to lose Charms, it is a logical and potentially true conclusion. If any publication would define exactly what a Primordial is, then it's Manual: Infernals (unless we get Glories: Yozis).
That's not true. If something is undefined, that does not mean that a deduction about how it could be defined is canon. Because canon consists of what is known and defined by the setting's authors.

Superman is an alien from a distant planet who somehow gains invulnerability when exposed to yellow sunlight. Yeah, he's human. :smallamused:
Human biologically? No, of course not. But he is Human, outlook-wise. That's the whole part about being raised on Earth by humans in his backstory. Furthermore, he is portrayed as human, in many aspects.

Gods are bound by their office, but Sol is not.
This line, right here? I'm not sure that's really true.

We know that his awakening damns all realms of existence to predestination. I mean, that's pretty clear. And now we know what predestination is called.
Except this isn't true, dammit. If you actually read the line involved, it says that some fear that his power is linked to Samsara. Not that is is, that they fear it might be.

There's also the thing that it really isn't predestination, any more than the Loom is.

Aye. I didn't say it was possible but rather that it would have been a better direction to structure the game world so that Sol doesn't just seem lazy.
Well, maybe. But even if that is the case, why did he not intervene himself? Moreover, why have the gods gotten to be that way, if he was taking an interest before hand.

Again, aye. But I'd rather not Sol run off of Kantian principles. Breaking an oath to humanity to save it from itself isn't really a bad thing. I mean, the Contagion and subsequent Crusade came really close to outright extinctions.
To us, no it's not. To him, though? I'm not saying that he's some virtue driven robot, but for him to break a promise is a terrible, terrible thing, because it grates against his very being. There's an additional reason that I'll get into below.

Perfection. The Valor to return anew with the Dawn. The Temperance to let man rule itself at its Zenith. The Compassion to save it in its Twilight. The Conviction to wait out the Night. The Willpower to drive his children to Eclipse him in all these things.
Well, couple problems with this. First off, it would require a complete re-write of the setting. Secondly, it kinda misses the point about his character.

Sol as written is not a father. He's the drunken, lazy stepfather that is stuck taking care of you when your mother dies - or is cast into hell, as the case may be. Though admittedly this analogy falls apart at the end since what little we know about Cytherea doesn't imply anything more than Kimberian tendencies.
Evidence to support these accusations? I can back up mine, but I think the only thing you can do for yours is the fact that you hate the UCS, and thus he must be bad.

Really, it seems to me that your argument is that the UCS should't fail. Shouldn't have emotions. Shouldn't ever doubt himself or his methods.

But the setting is partially based on the fact that he would. He helped the Exalted win the world from the titans, and then gave the world to them, something the Titans would never have done. And, for a time, it was good. But then things changed, and the Solars grew so great as to endanger the world. And he had to look and ask himself, "did I do right? Did I simply trade one set of Titans for Another, but this set from my own Blood?"

Maybe he found and answer, and maybe he didn't. In any case, he turned his face from the Solars, because he no longer had hope. And, in time, due to the Usurpation, he turned from Creation itself, because the hope never returned.

Also, I think a key part your missing is that for untold eons he was what you want him to be: the guiding star. And he could be again, but to do that hope must be restored. It fits in with the idea that Creation, currently, is broken. That nothing is working in the order that it should be, but that your PC's can change it.

Again, both the Deathlords and demons were given a single chapter of description. You'd think that a book specifically about X would have more description than Ligier in a single chapter that has to describe several important demons.
It would, if the book were solely about them. If you look at the books, they don't simply cover the maidens, Luna, or the UCS.

You mean like giving the Deathlords, Incarnae, and Yozis stats in the first place? The reverse of the old adage is not necessarily true: it need not have stats to be killable (though the Deathlord weakness thing was a bit silly). Even if it was, maybe that's what was so impossible about the Exalted victory - that they killed what was without comprehensible statistics. The Deathlords are no longer mysterious avatars of death and destruction. They are cranky oldies who want those whippersnappers off their lawn, where their lawn is the whole world. The Incarnae are no longer beings of legendary might and glory. They are merely really lazy bureaucrats. The Yozis have ceased being grand, mostly unfathomable ancient enemies. They are children that the Exalted maimed for being incapable of understanding adult morality.
Having mechanics does not make something mundane. Nor does not having them make something wondrous. Or, that's my opinion, though there's currently a debate on WW forums about this exact topic here (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58027).

I will say that I'm not sure the Deathlords were ever intended to be Mysterious Avatars of Death. If anything, that seems to be more of the Abyssals place.

Actually, Luna wins the boobie prize for actually doing her job and even helping Lunars on the side. The Maidens automatically fail for being really boring automatons who don't ever make serious decisions on their own and don't ever say a thing to their Chosen. Assuming they're not Oversight, anyway.
Oversight is totally SWLIHN.
Can you point out the passages which say that the Maidens act this way? I mean, there's a bit in Maidens that implies this, but only to say that they were like this long ago, and that they have changed.

Also, I seem to remember statements to the effect that the Maidens do talk to their chosen on occasion. But, like all the Incarna, the GoD have them addicted.

Kyeudo

2012-02-13, 07:37 PM

3. Samsara doesn't work like that. It is explicitly fallible.

Except that the book is quite clear that EVERYTHING that Samsara has ever predicted has been true and that the Maidens would be shocked and horrified if it was ever wrong.

4. The existence of the ring does not explicitly say that the Scarlet Empress is in Malfeas. You can do what ever you please with her. If the players continue to expect that Her Redness is going to be in Hell, that's the fault of stupid players, not the writers.

The only way they could put the Scarlet Empress any more explicitly in Hell would be to say "The Scarlet Empress is in Hell". That's not stupid players, that's players who can read.

Dawn Solution, specifically, I don't see why one would have a problem with. But I'll just wait and let you explain that if you want to.

First, the Dawn Solution never solved much of anything. Second, the Dawn Solution added additional problem Charms to the line. Third, I don't feel like making my players' Dawns pay an extra 50 XP to be competent at being Dawns. All of the good ideas that are actually contained in the Dawn Solution should have just been errata'd into the hands of every Dawn ever.

Except it doesn't... RotSE isn't canon. The problem is that's not clear until someone goes and talks about it.

It's half-canon. Every Charm, artifact, and spell in there is canon. All the rest is a "Here's what the meta-plot says goes next".

Turalisj

2012-02-13, 07:38 PM

Screw it. I'm done watching this thread if it's just going to be people arguing. :smallannoyed:

Kyeudo

2012-02-13, 07:41 PM

Screw it. I'm done watching this thread if it's just going to be people arguing. :smallannoyed:

Is it ever anything else?

Tavar

2012-02-13, 07:49 PM

Except that the book is quite clear that EVERYTHING that Samsara has ever predicted has been true and that the Maidens would be shocked and horrified if it was ever wrong.
It also says that Samsara sometimes just gives a non-answer, basically saying that it doesn't know.

The only way they could put the Scarlet Empress any more explicitly in Hell would be to say "The Scarlet Empress is in Hell". That's not stupid players, that's players who can read.
Considering that, aparently, SE has been in Hell since 1ed....
Yeah, those second edition writers, sticking to pre-established canon, damn them.

Also, once again, your objection seems to be "they dare right setting materials without consulting me or my games!"

First, the Dawn Solution never solved much of anything. Second, the Dawn Solution added additional problem Charms to the line. Third, I don't feel like making my players' Dawns pay an extra 50 XP to be competent at being Dawns. All of the good ideas that are actually contained in the Dawn Solution should have just been errata'd into the hands of every Dawn ever.
Well, first off, they didn't have the ability to make errata consistently at that time.

Secondly, I'm not so sure about the claim of not fixing anything. It seems to have made Dawns much better, and while it does require some xp, it massively reduced the XP costs.

Also, it's interesting that you say that it didn't solve anything, and yet it also seems to be necessary(in your opinion, at least). Can you explain that?

It's half-canon. Every Charm, artifact, and spell in there is canon. All the rest is a "Here's what the meta-plot says goes next".
Objectively false. Sorry, you're wrong here, because there is no meta-plot. The RotSE is a possible way for canon to unfold, but no more. It's no more canon than the various chapter comics, which are also non-canon.

Lord Raziere

2012-02-13, 07:52 PM

Screw it. I'm done watching this thread if it's just going to be people arguing. :smallannoyed:

I'm with ya there.

tonberrian

2012-02-13, 08:03 PM

*stuff*

Tavar again says what I want to say better than me. Why does this forum not have a thank button?

Tavar

2012-02-13, 08:04 PM

That's stuff I have said, and I'm not going to deny it. I have changed my outlook on some of the details, but I did say it. I have never said they're all baby-rapists. A fair amount of them are going to be good people. Even a bunch of those who are egotistical and ridiculously self centered are unlikely to be baby rapists, they'll just be humanly bad (which when you have the kind of near-unstoppable power Solars get, can and may be enough to screw up everything, mind, but still).
You're right, I apologize for the baby-raping comment. But, well, some of your comments haven't really made your case that well. I remember at least one comment to the effect of Solars being bigger threats than Abyssals and Infernals, and how you'd rather associate with just about anything instead of a Solar.

Kyeudo

2012-02-13, 08:26 PM

It also says that Samsara sometimes just gives a non-answer, basically saying that it doesn't know.

No, it means the Maidens can't interpret it. The Maidens can't see all of it. Sachervel, who can see all of it, is never wrong.

Considering that, aparently, SE has been in Hell since 1ed....
Yeah, those second edition writers, sticking to pre-established canon, damn them.

They could have chosen to leave it undefined. It is a new edition, after all.

Also, once again, your objection seems to be "they dare right setting materials without consulting me or my games!"

Let me put it a little differently. If they write a new country into the game, big whoop. The map is so big you can lose Australia in it and not change anything. I can just have my game over here and ignore it.

However, if you write a new type of Exalt into the setting, there are massive ramifications for the setting. There is history that needs rewritten, setting assumptions to question, cross-Exalt interactions to deal with. If there isn't, we have the Lunar problems all over again.

Alchemicals dodged this bullet by not actually being in the setting. They exist in their little side pocket where they don't have to interact with the setting ever unless you want them to. A Liminal Exalt in Nexus does not give me the same option.

Well, first off, they didn't have the ability to make errata consistently at that time.

So the blog where I read the Dawn Solution didn't exist?

Secondly, I'm not so sure about the claim of not fixing anything. It seems to have made Dawns much better, and while it does require some xp, it massively reduced the XP costs.

It made fighting Exalts better. Dawns, being fighting Exalts, got better by association.

Also, it's interesting that you say that it didn't solve anything, and yet it also seems to be necessary(in your opinion, at least). Can you explain that?

I said it didn't solve much of anything. This is different than solving nothing. The Dawn Solution had a few ideas that were addressed to specific problems that, while not the perfect solution, did have some promise. Take Overdrives, for example. Overdrive is made solely to solve the "I can't spend motes on offense or I die" problem. It doesn't do it perfectly, since there are only a handful of Overdrive Charms, not all are really useful, and they only have Overdrive Charms for Solaroids.

Objectively false. Sorry, you're wrong here, because there is no meta-plot. The RotSE is a possible way for canon to unfold, but no more. It's no more canon than the various chapter comics, which are also non-canon.

There is a meta-plot. It just doesn't move forward. It is frozen at the point of "The Scarlet Empress has been gone for five years". It has relics littered throughout the game line, if you are looking for them. They are generally easy to ignore, but they exist.

Gensh

2012-02-13, 08:26 PM

Except this isn't true, dammit. If you actually read the line involved, it says that some fear that his power is linked to Samsara. Not that is is, that they fear it might be.

Who's not reading what now? My quote was from RoGD2, not Glories: Maidens. The latter says that Jupiter fears what is stated as true in the former.

There's also the thing that it really isn't predestination, any more than the Loom is.

The Loom is the external viewer who collapses the wave function of human decision. While Essence expenditure can shrug it off, breaking free is nigh-impossible for mortals. Samsara expands its power to encompass all things, even those which it should not be able to a la UFvIO. Except the players, because that would be railroading.

Well, maybe. But even if that is the case, why did he not intervene himself? Moreover, why have the gods gotten to be that way, if he was taking an interest before hand.

I've said it before: Sol can't bring himself to intervene until it's too late. And he has no control over the bureaucracy for the same reason that Sids don't - the corruption just goes too deep. Sol is a King but not a Tyrant - he will not do what needs to be done.

To us, no it's not. To him, though? I'm not saying that he's some virtue driven robot, but for him to break a promise is a terrible, terrible thing, because it grates against his very being. There's an additional reason that I'll get into below.

Note that we're comparing breaking an oath with risking letting his favorite species accidentally drive itself extinct. Twice. Unless he operates off of Kantian principles, that would be one of the few times even he could conceive of going back on his word. I mean, he did the same with Laashe.

Well, couple problems with this. First off, it would require a complete re-write of the setting. Secondly, it kinda misses the point about his character.

That there is a struggle is a key aspect, yes, but I would rather have Sol's legend be one of defeating all odds through perseverance rather than a cascade of failure.

Evidence to support these accusations? I can back up mine, but I think the only thing you can do for yours is the fact that you hate the UCS, and thus he must be bad.

Tavar, I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Drascin that you've been trending toward ad hominem arguments. And my evidence is right there: that he would rather fail his duties to his own father and to his fellow gods than break a single oath with humanity. He already broke faith with that rascal Laashe, and I don't see how man as a whole is that much better.

Really, it seems to me that your argument is that the UCS should't fail. Shouldn't have emotions. Shouldn't ever doubt himself or his methods.

Superman doubts. Superman fails. But then he rises up again and again until he succeeds, bleeding and covered in dirt. And I don't even like reading Superman. Sol just kind of failed once and gave up, like the straight-A student who got one B and decided to stop studying altogether.

Maybe he found and answer, and maybe he didn't. In any case, he turned his face from the Solars, because he no longer had hope. And, in time, due to the Usurpation, he turned from Creation itself, because the hope never returned.

Which is really pretty pathetic. I mean, he could have had a hand in the implementation of the Immaculate Faith or something. By allowing his own worship to become heresy, he was being obnoxiously self-aggrandizing and allowed the quest for Virtue and greatness to become overshadowed by a philosophy of doing just enough to get by and sucking up to overpowered tyrants.

Also, I think a key part your missing is that for untold eons he was what you want him to be: the guiding star. And he could be again, but to do that hope must be restored. It fits in with the idea that Creation, currently, is broken. That nothing is working in the order that it should be, but that your PC's can change it.

Yeah, but half a circle of "good guys" have:
Kill Sol.
Free Isidoros and destroy the Loom of Fate.
Kill Sol.

as their Motivations, then the setting isn't lending itself toward fixing things, so much as breaking them again.

It would, if the book were solely about them. If you look at the books, they don't simply cover the maidens, Luna, or the UCS.

Well, yes, but the books are also the definitive source about their respective Incarna. And are not especially helpful in that vein, except for Glories: Maidens, because that's nearly all the information we even have.

Having mechanics does not make something mundane. Nor does not having them make something wondrous. Or, that's my opinion, though there's currently a debate on WW forums about this exact topic here (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58027).

If it has stats, it can be killed. Trivially. Players can look it up and plan beforehand.

I will say that I'm not sure the Deathlords were ever intended to be Mysterious Avatars of Death. If anything, that seems to be more of the Abyssals place.

I can't speak for 1E, as I didn't play back then, but Winters' introduction in Core did kind of imply the same sort of plotness as the Yozis. This sort of thing continued in Abyssals. I would enjoy that level of detail for all of the main NPCs.

Can you point out the passages which say that the Maidens act this way? I mean, there's a bit in Maidens that implies this, but only to say that they were like this long ago, and that they have changed.

I read it as they were changing around the time Kejak decided to kill everyone he didn't like and they ragequit after that.

tonberrian

2012-02-13, 08:40 PM

The Scarlet Empress being in Malfeas is not canon. You are interpreting that. I don't know why you keep clinging to that as if it were set in stone. The ring doesn't even have to exist in the games you run. It is not like White Wolf employs a team of Canon-Ninjas that will steal into your house and murder you in your sleep if you have Her Redness doing something else completely different than being in Malfeas like Infernals drops hints at. It is merely there to provide a plot hook for you to use or ignore at your leisure. Being morally offended by its existence makes no sense.

As for Samsara, yes, beings would be very surprised if it were wrong, since it never has. I am quite sure that that's how the Primordials felt after the first one of them was GETed.

Kyeudo

2012-02-13, 08:56 PM

As for Samsara, yes, beings would be very surprised if it were wrong, since it never has. I am quite sure that that's how the Primordials felt after the first one of them was GETed.

You seem to be focusing on the idea that my players don't have to care what Samsara says. I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.

tonberrian

2012-02-13, 09:05 PM

You seem to be focusing on the idea that my players don't have to care what Samsara says. I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.

Why is it that only PCs can buck Samsara? Where is that said?

Mr.Bookworm

2012-02-13, 09:07 PM

No, it means the Maidens can't interpret it. The Maidens can't see all of it. Sachervel, who can see all of it, is never wrong.

Sacherevell has never been canonically associated with samsara, even if that's the intention. He most likely never will be linked in canon, to leave options open.

Not to mention, Sachy can't actually see the future. He can only see the present, and nobody can get at that information because, y'know, he's asleep. He locks the universe into predestination if he wakes up, but that's up there with "Neverborn win" for Bad Ends.

They could have chosen to leave it undefined. It is a new edition, after all.

It, uh, is undefined, even if it is heavily hinted.

Find me a canon statement that says the Scarlet Empress is in Hell in 2nd Edition, not just an implication. Hint: You can't do it.

However, if you write a new type of Exalt into the setting, there are massive ramifications for the setting. There is history that needs rewritten, setting assumptions to question, cross-Exalt interactions to deal with. If there isn't, we have the Lunar problems all over again.

I am almost positive that the implication given is that the Chernozem are a new thing, and even if they weren't, I would like to actually have more than a couple of sentences and two pieces of art to go on.

So the blog where I read the Dawn Solution didn't exist?

I know you've been around long enough to fully know the difference between ETP and the Monkeys.

There is a meta-plot. It just doesn't move forward. It is frozen at the point of "The Scarlet Empress has been gone for five years". It has relics littered throughout the game line, if you are looking for them. They are generally easy to ignore, but they exist.

That's, uh, not metaplot, then. That's setting history, unless you want to make the ridiculous claim that every single part of Exalted's backstory is metaplot.

Metaplot would be going "the Scarlet Empress coming back and being an Infernal agent is canon, deal with it, sucker". Dreams of the First Age inventing a new civilization for the West in that period of time is an expansion of the backstory.

You seem to be focusing on the idea that my players don't have to care what Samsara says. I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.

Samsara is the shinmaic quantum foam of the universe. Mars can take a look into samsara, shake the magic 8-ball, and because she has access to a ****load of variables, she can pull a LaPlace's demon in regards to her purview. Nothing is predestined. The explicit statement that samsara can be wrong, even if it never has been, should tell you that.

Turalisj

2012-02-13, 11:18 PM

I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.

.....

.....

What.

Kyeudo

2012-02-14, 02:54 AM

Samsara is the shinmaic quantum foam of the universe. Mars can take a look into samsara, shake the magic 8-ball, and because she has access to a ****load of variables, she can pull a LaPlace's demon in regards to her purview. Nothing is predestined. The explicit statement that samsara can be wrong, even if it never has been, should tell you that.

Might want to check again. The only "flaw" canonically given to Samsara is that the Maidens occasionally can't find future events in it. It is never stated to be wrong.

.....

.....

What.

Before Samsara existed, you could fight your fate. Now that Samsara exists, you can't fight your fate because your attempts to fight fate were already fated.

The Loom of Fate's pull was originally written to be very weak. I, as a heroic mortal, could one day go "Screw this, I'm not gonna be a baker, I want to be king", organize an army of bandits and dissedents, and take over the kingdom. If Fate said that I was supposed to be a baker, well, circumstances will arrange themselves against me, but if I try hard enough, I can make the pattern spiders finally give up and say "Fine! You can be king, we're tired of this mess".

Samsara, on the other hand? No one can make it scream uncle. Not a mortal, not a raksha, not a Primordial, and not a Solar. If Samsara predicts that they will do something, then it will come to pass, because that's how Samsara is written in the setting. There is no error rate. The writers even left guidelines on how to make Samsara infallible even when dealing with PCs.

With Samsara in existance, all Exalted characters aren't telling their own story. They are acting out someone else's story. They are no longer protagonists.

YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."

Turalisj

2012-02-14, 03:39 AM

YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."

Your opinion. And, while I respect this opinion, I do not agree with it. I will not state why as I ,just like you, am entitled to form my own opinion. Should you take issue with my opinion, you are free to scream until you pass out. I, however, am sick of the self-entitled attitude people seem to take when it comes to what they choose to include in the setting. Every time you run a new game, you change the possible canon.

Now, who wants to help come up with ideas for my pirate lunar in Tavar's game?

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-14, 04:51 AM

Fluff or crunch?

horngeek

2012-02-14, 05:14 AM

Question!

What type of Exalted would you guys see Ganondorf as? I know the Twilight Princess version best...

Seems to me that most of his tricks are more Solar (or, possibly, Infernal) cheese, but then there's that big boar...

I'm leaning towards Infernal, but I'm not sure what Caste. So, what do you guys think?

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-14, 05:30 AM

Question!

What type of Exalted would you guys see Ganondorf as?Answer!

It varies on which game/timeline/whatever you want to go with, seeing how crazy the canon is.

Seems to me that most of his tricks are more Solar (or, possibly, Infernal) cheese, but then there's that big boar...The boar form could be Birth of Sanity's Sorrow, a Void Circle spell, except that it can only be cast once, ever. It could also be a Sorcery spell of some sort, or Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai.

I'm leaning towards Infernal, but I'm not sure what Caste. So, what do you guys think?I personally would make him a Malfean akuma with Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai and some very potent sorcery.

Or, y'know, we could just wait for meschlum.

Madwand

2012-02-14, 05:33 AM

Kyeudo

YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."

Why did you ignored my post in your answers? There is no such thing like "setting" outside your campaing world.

And Samsara is just a stupid author saving throw for explaining why if everything important is outside the fate Maidens are able to plan anything.

You really can ignore it. But if you can't.. well you need to read the sidebar once more:

If destiny and fate are the grand architecture that the Maidens and their servants construct, samsara is the ultimate blueprint which defines the “as things should” in each Maiden‟s Motivation.

In other, less complicated, words blueprints != final product; "as things should" != "as things will be".

So nothing is set in stone and you are plain wrong in your interpretation.

Originally Posted by Turalisj
Screw it. I'm done watching this thread if it's just going to be people arguing.
Is it ever anything else?

Sometimes. Tavar give me a few insight into balance between Infernals and Solars. You really can argue and get better view on things. You can laugh, but some people consider it whole point of arguing.:smalltongue:

--------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand: I just get time to read MoJ. It is awesome.:smallsmile:

But there is a thing I can't wrap my head around.. 'Guild is decentralized and hard to target", but when someone target it Guild start working in such organized manner.. it is a bit of contradiction.

Gareth3

2012-02-14, 05:54 AM

I'm interested in running an Exalted game, and I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to go about it. It would be a play-by-post game on these forums, with only Solar PCs. So, if you were looking for a game like that, what would have to be in the recruitment post to convince you to sign up? Would just "Solar game, in the East" be enough, or would you expect more detail up front? Likewise, how much preparation would you expect the ST to have done beforehand? Obviously Exalted PCs need lots of scope for individual initiative, so you can't set up DnD-style encounters. But how much preplanning should go into the antagonists that the PCs will encounter?

aetherialDawn

2012-02-14, 07:14 AM

(In regards to 'people are arguing')

Is it ever anything else?

Yes, yes it is. Sometimes we share ideas. Sometimes we look at what Meschlum has done, and are dumbfounded in wonder (Or come up with reasons why it only almost works, and try to make it work fully, when the cheese goes too far.)

You seem to be focusing on the idea that my players don't have to care what Samsara says. I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.
This is JUST PLAIN WRONG.
Samsara does not answer every question the Maidens pose.
That is the simplest, most powerful problem with this argument: Samsara, if nothing else, does not determine everything.
It is not just possible, but given the cosmology likely that Samsara cannot touch any action which an Exalt would not be willing to permit.

There are not one, but TWO flaws already found in Samsara. The first is that the Maidens can only get answers (unknown) times out of ten. Maybe they can ask Samsara, and they've only gotten answers for one in fifty questions. Maybe it's because the other 49 involved Celestial Exalted, or particularly willful Terrestrials. Maybe they assume Samsara would cover Autochthonians only because it's answered questions about other things outside fate, but actually, Fate 2.0 is above even Samsara, and they simply haven't gotten answers about Atuochthonia yet.

The second flaw is simpler: We lack a lot of information about it. We know about enough to say 'this is a plot device for the Maidens; some amount of the time, they can know the answer to a question about their purview and apply greater than normal power to applying that knowledge, in exchange for being personally unable to oppose it. So far their powers in such cases have been right.'
Look at the Unconquered Sun; he provokes charm roll-off with 30 successes for his so-called perfection. That's difficult, sure, but frankly, it's a defined number. Stack enough custom charms and even a Terrestrial might be able to scrape together the dice to beat him occasionally. That is the standard of an Incarna's power: So great as to appear insurmountable, but when you can look at the mechanics as we players can and don't fall into the traps those with imperfect knowledge, within the setting, tell us... Suddenly, we can see that no, it's just very hard, not impossible.

If a heroic mortal wants to be a king instead of a baker, who says that Samsara could give an answer that would gainsay him? All the 'power' of Samsara could rail impotently, unable to grasp so much as a sliver of his mortal willpower, simply because he might decide differently. Only the most certainly-fated things - even if they extend outside Creation - are certain, then. Demons who have something built into them can be predicted, outside fate but not Samsara's predictive power. Mortals who can't be answered with certainty are still inside fate, but they lie outside Samsara; if you ever have to say 'maybe' then it remains maybe. The power of the Maidens would then lie, if that is a true interpretation (It might not be!) in the ability to tell when the answer to a question is certain, rather than a maybe.

As for Metaplot vs. Canon: Canon is what HAS happened. It is the past. The metaplot, such as RotSE, is what COULD happen, the future - If you change the past, you change the setting. The future, however, is by nature undefined. Those parts of RotSE dealing with the past make it rather clear that these are likely answers to questions about what's already happened. The Ebon Dragon only probably has the Scarlet Empress in Hell already.

I'm interested in running an Exalted game, and I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to go about it. It would be a play-by-post game on these forums, with only Solar PCs. So, if you were looking for a game like that, what would have to be in the recruitment post to convince you to sign up? Would just "Solar game, in the East" be enough, or would you expect more detail up front? Likewise, how much preparation would you expect the ST to have done beforehand? Obviously Exalted PCs need lots of scope for individual initiative, so you can't set up DnD-style encounters. But how much preplanning should go into the antagonists that the PCs will encounter?

I lack the personal experience to answer this question in full, but I can provide some information. I think that you might want to have a little more information on intended theme than 'Solars in the East' - but be prepared for your players to reinterpret that slightly. Don't lock yourself in until you know what you're locking it in for.

As for antagonists, Exalted probably demands a lot more in terms of keeping track of what resources each 'side' has and cares for. You actually can pre-plan certain sorts of encounter, because they aren't within the PC's immediate, likely control; if the PCs have a city and are halfway across the world, they are unlikely to have the awareness charms to detect an army marching on it until the mortals do, and then they have to find a way to return in time to defend it... Or abandon their people to pursue their current mission.

I'm afraid I can't give you more than that without going too far outside my sphere of experience and understanding.

Mikal

2012-02-14, 07:50 AM

Might want to check again. The only "flaw" canonically given to Samsara is that the Maidens occasionally can't find future events in it. It is never stated to be wrong.

Before Samsara existed, you could fight your fate. Now that Samsara exists, you can't fight your fate because your attempts to fight fate were already fated.

The Loom of Fate's pull was originally written to be very weak. I, as a heroic mortal, could one day go "Screw this, I'm not gonna be a baker, I want to be king", organize an army of bandits and dissedents, and take over the kingdom. If Fate said that I was supposed to be a baker, well, circumstances will arrange themselves against me, but if I try hard enough, I can make the pattern spiders finally give up and say "Fine! You can be king, we're tired of this mess".

Samsara, on the other hand? No one can make it scream uncle. Not a mortal, not a raksha, not a Primordial, and not a Solar. If Samsara predicts that they will do something, then it will come to pass, because that's how Samsara is written in the setting. There is no error rate. The writers even left guidelines on how to make Samsara infallible even when dealing with PCs.

With Samsara in existance, all Exalted characters aren't telling their own story. They are acting out someone else's story. They are no longer protagonists.

YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."

So in other words, Samsara needs to be destroyed.

NEW MOTIVATION TIME FOR MY PC!

GryffonDurime

2012-02-14, 08:32 AM

The White Wolf board pretty much flatly refuses to consider anything an Ink Monkey creates to be in any way bad.

I'm just going to chime in and call shenanigans on that, not because it's patently untrue--there is a very vocal support for the freelancers--but because here and throughout the thread, you've inflated it to egregious strawman levels.

Of course, I can understand and sympathize with your concerns; there's a general problem with the mindset of the Exalted fanbase at present who assume that every Creation is rooted in some nebulous idea of canon.

But here's the thing: I don't think the Freelancers are your enemy on that count.

Also, I'm just going to leave this right here. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58050)

Friv

2012-02-14, 09:22 AM

I'm not going to get into an argument about whether foreknowledge denies free will, because I was involved in way too many of those in university and they can never, ever end well. :smallannoyed: Just go and look up pretty much any medieval philosopher and you'll get the quick points on the subject.

I will, however, touch on the "Why didn't Sol break his oath during the Balorian Crusade" thing. You're suggesting that the Lord of the Cosmos, the being around whom much of the world turns, should have shut down the thing that makes him invincible, removing all of his defenses, in order to ride to war against the most powerful threats to the world in thousands of years?

I'm not really seeing a way that that will end well for him, or for Creation.

Gensh

2012-02-14, 10:07 AM

As for antagonists, Exalted probably demands a lot more in terms of keeping track of what resources each 'side' has and cares for. You actually can pre-plan certain sorts of encounter, because they aren't within the PC's immediate, likely control; if the PCs have a city and are halfway across the world, they are unlikely to have the awareness charms to detect an army marching on it until the mortals do, and then they have to find a way to return in time to defend it... Or abandon their people to pursue their current mission.

This here is very much an issue. Your players have to be completely aware that this sort of thing is happening. Make up some reason for them to know. If they go off gallivanting in Autochthonia at the same time a string of arsons and murders begins in the Scavenger Lands, the final climactic encounter with the villain won't have any meaning at all. On that note, if your Circle is a complete social abomination, keep them away from Autochthonia entirely. There's something wrong when the Dusk and the "eat everything" Full Moon are trying to keep everyone else in line. Know your players and know when subtle hints that they aren't giving things enough thought aren't going through. And while you're at it, keep some blank, mostly filled villain character sheets lying around.

So in other words, Samsara needs to be destroyed.

NEW MOTIVATION TIME FOR MY PC!

It's not quite so bad as Kyuedo makes it sound (so long as Sacheverell is sleeping), but that's never a bad Motivation. Remember that Isidoros is your best friend in this endeavor.

Re: Samsara is needed so that the Maidens/Sids aren't useless.

Not really. I'll agree that Fate as a thing for Exalted use fails in its current implementation, but there are other solutions that don't involve this predetermination debate. The way I'd like to see it done (and will probably implement in some form whenever I get around to running another game) is that Fate is a sort of personal spiritual vector. At any given time, a person's Destiny points in the direction they will head if left unchecked; the length of the Strand of Fate can be read indefinitely backwards but becomes fuzzy and unwoven in the future, as different bits and pieces head in various directions, only becoming wound into a more definite direction as time advances. Of course, any sort of major Essence expenditure runs against the Strands like a fierce wind, driving them in some unknown direction. The Loom itself is not some Primordial super-artifact that arranges mortal Destinies in a way that makes them easy to control - at least not since the War, if ever. Rather, it serves as a sort of holographic projection that shows how the individual Strands of all living things weave together into the collective Destiny of Creation.

Sidereals do not work the Loom with some dumb Craft (Fate) skill that is never really defined - if I keep that, then I'll limit it to Shaping specific, detailed instances of Fate, such as Resplendent Destinies. As for the average Sidereal, though, they manipulate Fate in a way that is much more intuitive. They merely reach out to the Strands they wish to manipulate, touching them at key points like the stars in a constellation in order to subtly shift their natural current. The Strands come to them, bending in a way that is completely natural as a natural effect of their astrological existence, much like excellence is a natural effect of Solars' glorious existence. Each Sidereal has a personal gravity toward Fate. Friends and enemies alike unknowingly cluster around them as their Essence grows and their gravitational field expands, Threads they wish to manipulate literally leap to their fingertips.

They are the Viziers, unseen, unremembered, but all things gravitate around them. Through their very presence, the Fates of heroes and nations slip out of their natural course in the name of the greater good. And this is merely the result of their natural talent; of course ones so good with delicately nudging Strands with their fingertips would have the greatest affinity for subtle, mystical forms of unarmed fighting - and perhaps archery - invisibly guiding two Fated lovers together (because today).

I will, however, touch on the "Why didn't Sol break his oath during the Balorian Crusade" thing. You're suggesting that the Lord of the Cosmos, the being around whom much of the world turns, should have shut down the thing that makes him invincible, removing all of his defenses, in order to ride to war against the most powerful threats to the world in thousands of years?

Yes. Because that's his job and his duty. If he's willing to get in a naked fistfight with a supercharged Laashe, then surely it's not such a big deal to ride against Balor defenseless, especially when the raksha camp is divided anyway and the fate of Creation itself is at stake. It's thought that Balor was considering sounding the retreat at the time of the Realm Defense Grid's activation, but the record is of the raksha and thus as much fiction as fact. Come to think of it, I'd rather enjoy hearing about the Yozis' reaction to the Crusade. I don't think it's been mentioned. Similarly, I wonder whether Gaia was too far out to send any subsouls to help or if she really doesn't care what happens to Creation as much as she used to - she mainly comes back for Luna, after all.

Friv

2012-02-14, 10:45 AM

Yes. Because that's his job and his duty. If he's willing to get in a naked fistfight with a supercharged Laashe, then surely it's not such a big deal to ride against Balor defenseless, especially when the raksha camp is divided anyway and the fate of Creation itself is at stake. It's thought that Balor was considering sounding the retreat at the time of the Realm Defense Grid's activation, but the record is of the raksha and thus as much fiction as fact.

Really? I don't recall that - I remember a discussion about a couple of the power players planning to assassinate Balor. However, I have to thank you, because now you've helped me to decide what not just the Sun, but the other Incarnae were doing for the whole Crusade. It is now just a picture in my head of the Sun very slowly staggering towards the door of the Jade Pleasure Dome, with Luna and the Maidens draped all over him desperately trying to hold him back long enough to keep him from dropping into the middle of the invasion and dying, because Saturn knows that if the Sun goes down there, he'll seriously die, and they can slow him down now because he broke his oath by trying to leave. The Empress triggers her attack just as he beats the other Incarnae by reaching the front door.

Come to think of it, I'd rather enjoy hearing about the Yozis' reaction to the Crusade. I don't think it's been mentioned. Similarly, I wonder whether Gaia was too far out to send any subsouls to help or if she really doesn't care what happens to Creation as much as she used to - she mainly comes back for Luna, after all.

IIRC, there was something in Compass: Malfeas on the subject, and it amounted to "crapping their pants in terror". The assembled armies of Malfeas were gathered around the thirteen gates to Creation, anticipating the moment when endless hordes of Chaos would swarm in and start murdering everything.

Similarly, it wouldn't surprise me if Gaia did launch an attack, but since she was away it was from the opposite side of the infinite hordes, and no one in Creation really had a chance to see it in detail. It was just one more element of the forces trying to defend the world.

(Or, hey, maybe Gaia bred the hann'ya to attack the Balorian Crusade. ;) )

*EDIT* Ah, what the hell, here's a little ficlet. Spoilered for being innuendo-filled.

"Venus! Grab his leg!"
"I am grabbing his leg!"
"That is not his leg, Venus."
"Shut up, Jupiter!"
"Whatever! I've got his upper left arm! Mercury, grab his spear!"
"No thanks. I'm not Venus."
"His actual spear, Mercury."
"Oh. Right. Got it."
"LET GO OF ME! I MUST PROTECT CREATION!"
"You are going to die. Really, honestly, die."
"Luna, hide the spear!"
"Done. Oh, he's grabbed it again. Okay, it's better hidden this time."
"Mercury, give us a push or something!"
"I'm trying!"
"You could help, Saturn!"
"T-touch him? No, no I couldn't. You're doing fine."

Lix Lorn

2012-02-14, 11:59 AM

YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."
A thought occurs. Philosophically, there is not necessarily any difference between a world with free will and a world without. As long as mortals and exalts make decisions, they make decisions, even if the decision is predetermined. Because if you have the choice between eat dinner and go hungry, it doesn't take samsara to know what'll happen. If you spent thirty years hunting down Ligier, and have your daiklaive at his throat, Samsara may well say you'll kill him. And it will be right-and that in no way diminishes your decision.

Now, my interpretation of Samsara would be that if you were TOLD Samsara said you'd kill him, this new information could and might make you change your mind.
...if it did, it's likely that Samsara said 'If he is told, he will change his mind.'
That in no way stops you having changed your mind.

Also, I'm just going to leave this right here. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58050)
I sorta want to apply, but I probably wouldn't stick with it, and a skype game sounds awkward.
I will say your quote made me giggle though.

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-14, 01:18 PM

I sorta want to apply, but I probably wouldn't stick with it, and a skype game sounds awkward.My group currently plays via Skype... :smallfrown:

Andreaz

2012-02-14, 01:19 PM

I'd be doomed without Sykpe. No one around my city likes Exalted.

Volthawk

2012-02-14, 01:25 PM

My group currently plays via Skype... :smallfrown:

Yeah, my current games are on Skype and IRC, although the Skype one isn't Exalted.

Gensh

2012-02-14, 01:34 PM

I sorta want to apply, but I probably wouldn't stick with it, and a skype game sounds awkward.

Playing isn't really awkward at all (except when everyone speaks at once or you have two conversations happening at once). Reading the backlogs is a colossal pain. Though I should probably check Google to see if there's not a way to remove all the time tags and stuff.

Andreaz

2012-02-14, 02:18 PM

Playing isn't really awkward at all (except when everyone speaks at once or you have two conversations happening at once). Reading the backlogs is a colossal pain. Though I should probably check Google to see if there's not a way to remove all the time tags and stuff.

Time tags are easy to remove with a simple regex. If they are like [2000-01-31 00:00:00] for example, the following find/replace from
^\[(\d{2,4}[\s\-:]*)*\](.*)
to
$2
would give you the messages
Editors like MsOffice, OpenOffice, vim and all programming aides should have such option.

Gareth3

2012-02-14, 05:18 PM

I lack the personal experience to answer this question in full, but I can provide some information. I think that you might want to have a little more information on intended theme than 'Solars in the East' - but be prepared for your players to reinterpret that slightly. Don't lock yourself in until you know what you're locking it in for.

Thanks for the feedback. I actually have an elaborate scenario planned, but it may limit the PCs too much to be useful in a game. I'm still having trouble with the difference between thinking up a story in the Exalted setting and thinking up a good scenario for an Exalted game.

Turalisj

2012-02-14, 05:23 PM

Fluff or crunch?

Both? I was thinking of Changing Moon, but then doing a giant squid totem lunar sounds awesome too. Honestly, not too sure what I should focus on...

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-14, 05:41 PM

Both?I'll see what I can do; I'm not a big expert on Lunars. :smallsmile:

a giant squid totem lunar sounds awesome too.You've got me there. :smalltongue:

Honestly, not too sure what I should focus on...Giant squid sounds good for a grapple-focused build. :smalltongue:

What sort of backstory have you hammered out so far?

Drascin

2012-02-15, 07:13 AM

:smalleek: He has to be an Exalt? Uh, Lunar. Ganon wasn't human, originally. Nintendo 64 came along and added some things. If you can find a copy of the original The Legend of Zelda manual for the Nintendo it should make a cute read. So not-really-human-at-all. ...but neither do I think that Ganon makes sense as an exalt type.

He's been orginally-human since A Link to the Past. He was a bandit king that managed to enter the Sacred Realm. Then he got progressively turned into an inhuman demon due to acquiring power, and it corrupting him (and the world around him) due to his evil heart. Or more precisely, the Realm turns everyone into reflections of what they had inside - and for Ganondorf, it was a pig demon (under the same influence, Link becomes a cute little pink bunny, because innocence :smalltongue:).

I think we could make him work as an Infernal, in most incarnations - LttP, OoT, TP.

Wind Waker Ganondorf is an exception, and seems more Solar, though.

Bitter

2012-02-15, 07:16 PM

Both? I was thinking of Changing Moon, but then doing a giant squid totem lunar sounds awesome too. Honestly, not too sure what I should focus on...

In terms of crunch, there's the obvious get Deadly Beastman Technique, Relentless Lunar Fury and some charms that build off of those. They're the core of Lunar combat. Like Alucard says, grappling would be thematic and also strong for you when you're in your spirit shape with it's massive strength bonus. My only advice there is to pick up the core Lunar charms rather than Lunar Hero Style. LHS is just a bit weak in comparison.

The social/general charms depend on what you want to do. West Mastery Technique will let you breath underwater as a human, so you don't have to spend DBT mutation points on it. Dog Tongue Method along with a social charm could let you put together a Posse of sharks and giant squid and stuff. I'm a fan of the Charisma Fascination charms that let you use social charms on people without them even knowing.

Omniplex

2012-02-15, 07:18 PM

So, I'm making a Sidereal Exalted Chosen of Battles for a game. Was wondering what charms would be good for a Melee using combat focused Sidereal.

Mr.Bookworm

2012-02-15, 08:24 PM

So, I'm making a Sidereal Exalted Chosen of Battles for a game. Was wondering what charms would be good for a Melee using combat focused Sidereal.

Uuuuuh. Well, first, recognize that the Sidereal Charmset is pretty effed up at the moment. There's errata on the way very soon, though.

For Melee, well, you only have seven Charms, so you might as well pick them all up. Impeding the Flow and Serenity in Blood are the obvious ones. ItF is an awesome semi-perfect and SiB lets you beat surprise attacks (plus the stuff that ItF won't block).

You probably want to go into Martial Arts, in any case, to expand your capabilities.

Grabbing Archery or Thrown for some ranged capability is good. Sidereal Archery is hilariously awesome, so I'd recommend that.

For non-combat stuff, really depends on what you want to do. What's your character like?

DeadManSleeping

2012-02-15, 08:31 PM

All the Sidereal Melee Charms are actually pretty good. I'd recommend also taking a MA or two, probably VBoS for one.

Urpriest

2012-02-15, 09:46 PM

First, Isidoros probably has a Shintai that would be appropriate for Ganondorf, no?

Second, I have recently realized that the song Eye of the Tiger has several verses that correlate well to Fair Folk abilities, especially "You trade your passion for glory" -> "You trade Compassion for Valor" or similar. Has Meschlum ever made Eye of the Raksha?

horngeek

2012-02-15, 09:58 PM

Gensh

2012-02-15, 10:07 PM

Malfeas' Shintai would work just as well, I think, and Malfeas' themes work better with Ganondorf.

Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai for ease of reference. Still, the full-blown shintai isn't really what you'd be looking for, as I've never found a use for having all those mutations at once. By Rage Recast with a decent Essence score is probably enough, and that doesn't even have any prerequisites. As for using Isidoros vs. Malfeas, though, the Izzy Charmset on the wiki is old enough that it lacks a shintai entirely. I really want to say that we should use a different Yozi entirely since Ganon doesn't quite fit either of their themes that well, but I daresay Izzy has the better set of Charms for the purpose. Also, I want to say he'd be a Fiend, but eh.

horngeek

2012-02-15, 10:20 PM

golentan

2012-02-15, 10:59 PM

In terms of the Shintai, that's to replicate his trick of turning into a giant boar.

I'd say he seems like either Slayer with ED Favored, or Fiend with Malfeas favored, leaning towards the former. Defenitely a Malfean Urge, though.

Actually, I'd go with a Cecelynian urge. His goal is to dominate Hyrule. By vicious, overkill force, yes, but look how he always goes about it. He uses his ability to create titanic monsters to secure his main objectives, then sends out waves of lesser creatures to force people to conform out of terror to his will. In every sense, it is about domination and the preference for the strong over the weak.

horngeek

2012-02-15, 11:24 PM

Tavar

2012-02-15, 11:54 PM

Also, his trickery seems rather direct, often enough. I mean, in OoT wasn't he in court because he was some kind of magician? Maybe some wish-granting powers were aiding him.

Zelda is, of course, a Sidereal. If she's in Sheik(or whatever that one's name is) form, she's simply wearing Armor of the Unseen Assassin. Probably a Chosen of Endings, but then we don't really get to see her abilities too much.

And then Link's a Solar

horngeek

2012-02-15, 11:57 PM

...to be honest, I always saw both Link and Zelda as Solars- Link as Dawn and Zelda as a Zenith.

Remember, I've never played OoT. :smalltongue:

Gensh

2012-02-16, 12:00 AM

Actually, I'd go with a Cecelynian urge. His goal is to dominate Hyrule. By vicious, overkill force, yes, but look how he always goes about it. He uses his ability to create titanic monsters to secure his main objectives, then sends out waves of lesser creatures to force people to conform out of terror to his will. In every sense, it is about domination and the preference for the strong over the weak.

He's not particularly ordered about it, though, which is a main point of contention. He has an evil plan, yes, but even Steve has an evil plan. Likewise, he isn't really a hypocrite and doesn't put effort into twisting things up. He breaks them - a trait held in common with Isidoros and Malfeas. The deciding factor here for me is that Malfeas will give you some excuse as to why he did so: "Autochton! Stop crafting better than me! That's illegal! Onee-chan, make that illegal!" Isidoros will not make such excuses.

Also, his trickery seems rather direct, often enough. I mean, in OoT wasn't he in court because he was some kind of magician? Maybe some wish-granting powers were aiding him.

Zelda is, of course, a Sidereal. If she's in Sheik(or whatever that one's name is) form, she's simply wearing Armor of the Unseen Assassin. Probably a Chosen of Endings, but then we don't really get to see her abilities too much.

And then Link's a Solar

Sounds about right. Unless you want Lunar Link specifically for the wolf transformation, but there are other ways to get that.

horngeek

2012-02-16, 12:06 AM

To be honest, my major reason for thinking of Zelda as a Solar is the fact that she rules directly, not manipulating things from behind the scenes.

Now, in OoT, things may be different...

Draken

2012-02-16, 12:07 AM

ED favoring Slayer sounds ideal for Ganondorf. Gives him a way to create those Dark Links.

I would also give him a few choice items from Reminiscent Oasis' recently posted Mardukth charmset (up to and including the Shintai that lets you soulfuse with a familiar), and the desert backgorund of the Gerudo tribe does open space for a couple of Cecelyne charms. And Hate Springs Eternal, can't forget Hate Springs Eternal.

horngeek

2012-02-16, 12:10 AM

I would also give him a few choice items from Reminiscent Oasis' recently posted Mardukth charmset (up to and including the Shintai that lets you soulfuse with a familiar), and the desert backgorund of the Gerudo tribe does open space for a couple of Cecelyne charms. And Hate Springs Eternal, can't forget Hate Springs Eternal.

Who's Mardukth and where can this charmset be found? :smalltongue:

golentan

2012-02-16, 12:12 AM

He's not particularly ordered about it, though, which is a main point of contention. He has an evil plan, yes, but even Steve has an evil plan. Likewise, he isn't really a hypocrite and doesn't put effort into twisting things up. He breaks them - a trait held in common with Isidoros and Malfeas. The deciding factor here for me is that Malfeas will give you some excuse as to why he did so: "Autochton! Stop crafting better than me! That's illegal! Onee-chan, make that illegal!" Isidoros will not make such excuses.

Sounds about right. Unless you want Lunar Link specifically for the wolf transformation, but there are other ways to get that.

The way you phrase this, I think we're talking at cross purposes. I'm purely talking about his urge: his motivation, which is set distinct from methodologies such as charmset. And his motive seems to me to gain power. He doesn't want to destroy things, he wants to rule them. Destroying them until they're small enough to rule is his methodology: I agree he is direct, all about the overkill and open application of force in his methodology and in the powers he uses. which does fit with malfeas. So, in my mind, a Malfean/Isidorian slayer caste with a Cecelynian urge.

Because Urge, Favored Yozi, and Caste can and should be mix and match for fun and profit.

...to be honest, I always saw both Link and Zelda as Solars- Link as Dawn and Zelda as a Zenith.

Remember, I've never played OoT. :smalltongue:

I agree with this. Though zelda (depending on game) is everything from a not-particularly-heroic-mortal to "Who let the Incarnae out of the games?"

Also:
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/020/5/4/zelda_exalted_by_golentan-d4n1v53.jpg

Edit:

Who's Mardukth and where can this charmset be found? :smalltongue:

Don't ask who Mardukth is! He'll never shut up about it once you get him started!

Draken

2012-02-16, 12:21 AM

Who's Mardukth and where can this charmset be found? :smalltongue:

Reminiscent Oasis posted a charmset for him in the whitewolf forums recently, but my whole internet is crazy and having trouble loading so I can't give a link. It loaded while I made the paragraph bellow, yay. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58128)

It has some interesting things, including a Followers version of Messianic (your powers rely on flunkies!) some charms that work off of familiar (and lets you turn any animal you find into a familiar and eventually be better an animal themed barbarian as Lunars don't wish they were. And your very own mountain-raising variant of CPI.

Gensh

2012-02-16, 12:23 AM

The way you phrase this, I think we're talking at cross purposes. I'm purely talking about his urge: his motivation, which is set distinct from methodologies such as charmset. And his motive seems to me to gain power. He doesn't want to destroy things, he wants to rule them. Destroying them until they're small enough to rule is his methodology: I agree he is direct, all about the overkill and open application of force in his methodology and in the powers he uses. which does fit with malfeas. So, in my mind, a Malfean/Isidorian slayer caste with a Cecelynian urge.

Because Urge, Favored Yozi, and Caste can and should be mix and match for fun and profit.

The terrible way that part of the book was written has left me wondering exactly how GSP character creation actually works on several occasions. I'd always assumed you had to have an Urge from either of your two patrons. Since all the iconic GSPs have Urges matching their caste, it wasn't exactly helpful.

Mr.Bookworm

2012-02-16, 12:30 AM

Sounds about right. Unless you want Lunar Link specifically for the wolf transformation, but there are other ways to get that.

Actually, Zelda and Link are a perfect fit for a Lunar and Solar bonded pair. The various games are about the different bearers of their Exaltations, repeating an endless cycle of heroism and love.

Who's Mardukth and where can this charmset be found?

Mardukth is (er, was, until the Solars got to him) a Primordial who would not shut the hell up. Was severely neurotic and had an identity crisis, so he kept asking everyone around him who the hell he was. The world got sick of his **** so hard that it started growing just to get away from his whiny ass. He also looked like something out of a heavy metal album cover. Then the Empyreal Chaos came along, planted a boot firmly up his ass, and took over. Thank him.

Mardukth's Charmset can be found here (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58128). RO does solid work.

Who is missing the joke?

Tavar

2012-02-16, 12:36 AM

golentan

2012-02-16, 12:39 AM

The terrible way that part of the book was written has left me wondering exactly how GSP character creation actually works on several occasions. I'd always assumed you had to have an Urge from either of your two patrons. Since all the iconic GSPs have Urges matching their caste, it wasn't exactly helpful.

Nope, any Infernal can have any urge AND any favored yozi. Patron yozi is fixed by caste tho. The Iconics are non-helpful on several levels, but I don't think that should detract from the joys of good infernal character building. I've had fun with a Scourge Caste with Kimbery Favored and an Ebon Dragon Urge. The scourge caste mostly provided base "stealthy character" skills, but also some really good mobility charms. Kimbery provided a vast wealth of poisons, and the ebon dragon provided the motive to use those poisons to spread fear and corruption among his enemies.

Also, Ebon Dragon and Kimbery have some crazy synergy going on. One of my favorite combinations. Heelloooo arbitrarily high hardness.

Lord Raziere

2012-02-16, 12:43 AM

Actually, Zelda and Link are a perfect fit for a Lunar and Solar bonded pair. The various games are about the different bearers of their Exaltations, repeating an endless cycle of heroism and love.

however keep in mind that its Link thats the Lunar.

Why? because he travels through and bends time, has shapeshifted into a deku, a goron, a zora and a wolf, has shrunk down to a small size, comes from the woods, has a fairy companion, and if I remember correctly he once divided himself into four Links in one game. he has also done various other things using music, none of which I can see a Solar doing.

Gensh

2012-02-16, 12:44 AM

Nope, any Infernal can have any urge AND any favored yozi. Patron yozi is fixed by caste tho. The Iconics are non-helpful on several levels, but I don't think that should detract from the joys of good infernal character building. I've had fun with a Scourge Caste with Kimbery Favored and an Ebon Dragon Urge. The scourge caste mostly provided base "stealthy character" skills, but also some really good mobility charms. Kimbery provided a vast wealth of poisons, and the ebon dragon provided the motive to use those poisons to spread fear and corruption among his enemies.

Also, Ebon Dragon and Kimbery have some crazy synergy going on. One of my favorite combinations. Heelloooo arbitrarily high hardness.

I'm still sad I've never gotten a chance to do the obvious Kimberian Malefactor - Poor, unfortunate souls~

golentan

2012-02-16, 12:52 AM

I'm still sad I've never gotten a chance to do the obvious Kimberian Malefactor - Poor, unfortunate souls~

Totally doable. You take the Kimbery Shaping defense that gives you mutations (sea dissolves herself I think?) and hang out in the wyld a bit. Boom, tentacle legs. Then go to the west and find a pelagothrope looking for love. Verdant Emptiness Endowment + Scoured Perfection of Form. The pelagothrope loses their voice in exchange for becoming indistinguishable from a normal human. Fine Print Bequest gives you the penalty terms. I think you need a custom expansion to actually trap their soul rather than just inflict botches though.

Aaaand done.

Tavar

2012-02-16, 01:43 AM

Hmm.. Does Creation have any numbers thought to be unusually unlucky?

TheCountAlucard

2012-02-16, 01:47 AM

Gives him a way to create those Dark Links.Solar Circle Sorcery. Sidereal Martial Arts. Fair Folk artifacts. Lunar Charms. Take your pick.

however keep in mind that its Link thats the Lunar.Doesn't have to be, by any means.

Why? because he travels through and bends timeUnless you count going forward, that's outside the current paradigm of the game.

...has shapeshifted into a deku, a goron, a zora, and a wolfFair Folk artifacts. Sorcery. Sidereal Martial Arts.

...has shrunk down to a small size...Fair Folk artifacts. Ordinary artifacts. Sorcery. Sidereal Martial Arts.

...comes from the woods...This is something that is not limited to any one character splat; attempting to shoehorn "comes from the woods" into a Lunar-only thing seems extremely problematic.

...has a fairy companion...One dot in Allies.

and if I remember correctly he once divided himself into four Links in one game...Solar Circle Sorcery. Fair Folk artifacts. Sidereal martial Arts. Adorjan Charms.

He has also done various other things using music, none of which I can see a Solar doing.Performance Charms.

To clarify, I'm not saying anyone's particular suggestions is wrong, merely that it's not the only option by far.

Hmm.. Does Creation have any numbers thought to be unusually unlucky?Don't know, but I find it funny that both the fourth volumes in the "Compass of Celestial Directions" and "Manual of Exalted Power" series were about the Underworld and Abyssals respectively, considering the Japanese associate the number four with death. :smallamused:

horngeek

2012-02-16, 02:16 AM

I don't know if there are any Creation-wide unlucky numbers. Five might have some significance, but probably as a lucky number rather than an unlucky one (for pretty obvious reasons).

Turalisj

2012-02-16, 03:47 AM

I want someone to stat Kaepora Gaebora as a lunar elder.....

Drascin

2012-02-16, 03:57 AM

Actually, I'm going to take back the "Link is a Solar thing".

Why? Because of fate. Remember, he's always fated to come into his power. Plus, in many ways, Ganon always dwarfs him, powerwise. But Link manages to win through trickery.

He could very well make a good Sidereal. In fact, I'd say he's a Sidereal of Endings, while Zelda is of Battles.

I dunno. I'd still put him as Solar. What Link does is not so much trickery as finding and using the best tool for each job - be it enchanted hammers, simple bottles, or arrows imbued with the essence of the Goddesses. But he's generally very direct. Doesn't help that I think there's like two Charms total in the Endings section that Link would actually want...

But he clearly does have some sort of Thousand Arms or Many-Pockets analogue, having unbreakable willpower and drive is kind of his "thing" (exhibit A, Fierce Deity Mask. Supposedly, it's an evil god equal to Majora, and has dominated everyone that tried to put the mask on. Link was the first to control it instead of the reverse), he masters everything he touches instantly without any real training...

...you know, that's actually sounding a bit Lunar. Especially the "needs no training" thing.

Besides, having high Destiny can also help you in earning other Exaltations, and not all Links were destined. OoT Link was destined, while Wind Waker Link kind of fell into the role, for example, and LttP link was kinda ambiguous - the bloodline component that supposedly helped (him being descended from the champions of Hyrule that once sealed Ganon and stuff) him might actually point to him as Dragonblooded of all things.

Also, Link's life is not entirely made of suffering. That points him as not Sidereal :smalltongue: this is a joke. Meme goes that Sidereal Exaltation is actually just a really elaborate form of punishment. Plus, Wind Waker Link's life IS actually made of suffering. He's both the game's hero and buttmonkey

horngeek

2012-02-16, 03:57 AM

I want someone to stat Kaepora Gaebora as a lunar elder.....

...he'd probably have a Martial Art revolving around delivering annoying speeches. :smalltongue:

Volthawk

2012-02-16, 05:12 AM

Who's Mardukth and where can this charmset be found? :smalltongue:

You might recognise his name if you use his current Neverborn name - He Who Holds In Thrall, master of the First and Forsaken Lion and the Princess Magnificent.

Lix Lorn

2012-02-16, 11:36 AM

Mardukth's Charmset can be found here (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58128). RO does solid work.

Who is missing the joke?
...DO WANT.

Yuki Akuma

2012-02-16, 02:02 PM

Who's Mardukth and where can this charmset be found? :smalltongue:

Mardukth, the Mountain and the Beast That Sits Upon It, was the first King of the Primordials. Then the Empyreal Chaos (that which would become Malfaes) kicked him off his mountain and took over.

Don't ask the Primordials about this (Yozis, free or dead), though. They don't like to admit it ever happened.

Read this. (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Ink_Monkeys,_vol._40:_The_Legend_o f_the_Titans) It's pretty awesome.

Rikandur Azebol

2012-02-16, 03:18 PM

What is Zen-Mu and how it is related to Creation ?:smalleek:

Gensh

2012-02-16, 03:47 PM

What is Zen-Mu and how it is related to Creation ?:smalleek:

It's where the Primordials originated from - or what their presence created - or both at the same time in paradoxical fashion. It was where they played with worldbuilding before leaving to seek the Shining Answer. It's important to note, though, that there's barely anything left of it, if pieces still exist at all - it was somewhere between Glamour and Creation, not being thoroughly infused with Gaia's stability as Creation is.

golentan

2012-02-16, 03:48 PM

What is Zen-Mu and how it is related to Creation ?:smalleek:

When the primordials first came into existence and pushed back the tides of chaos, they created a world called Zen Mu. It required their direct intervention as upkeep, and so after a few million or billion years they got tired of running zen mu. They abandoned their first project and took lessons from it to make creation: creation is in some ways Zen Mu 2.0, still created and stabilized by primordial essence, but self maintaining (due to gods and elementals): designed to act as a semi-autonomous bulwark against the wyld without the Primordials having to go torture fae to death personally (unless they felt like it). And then they discovered the dangers of autonomous creations, and got murderized by the exalted. The end.

Lix Lorn

2012-02-16, 04:29 PM

When the primordials first came into existence and pushed back the tides of chaos, they created a world called Zen Mu. It required their direct intervention as upkeep, and so after a few million or billion years they got tired of running zen mu. They abandoned their first project and took lessons from it to make creation: creation is in some ways Zen Mu 2.0, still created and stabilized by primordial essence, but self maintaining (due to gods and elementals): designed to act as a semi-autonomous bulwark against the wyld without the Primordials having to go torture fae to death personally (unless they felt like it). And then they discovered the dangers of autonomous creations, and got murderized by the exalted. The end.
And now the TRUE heroes of the setting, the Infernal Exalted, seek to return their creators to the glory they possessed before their creations tore them down to steal their Xbox!

golentan

2012-02-16, 04:33 PM

And now the TRUE heroes of the setting, the Infernal Exalted, seek to return their creators to the glory they possessed before their creations tore them down to steal their Xbox!

Or, you know, just go be awesome Primordials 2.0. I'm okay with the yozis getting their x-box back, but after the temper tantrum they've been throwing since it got taken away in the first place I think that uncle Autochthon should be stern with them and tell them they can't have ice cream and if they try shaving the cat one more time they'll have to sit in the corner for another few millennia.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/GryffonDurime/Titaniform1final.jpg

Bitter

2012-02-16, 04:35 PM

What is Zen-Mu and how it is related to Creation ?:smalleek:

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=501849636653

It was originally an Ink Monkey post, Ink Monkeys being what some of the current crop of Exalted developers called themselves when they got permission to start a White-Wolf blog that gave away free Exalted setting mechanics/fluff. It was taken down in the site revamp, but has been collected in various places.

Gensh

2012-02-16, 05:30 PM

Or, you know, just go be awesome Primordials 2.0. I'm okay with the yozis getting their x-box back, but after the temper tantrum they've been throwing since it got taken away in the first place I think that uncle Autochthon should be stern with them and tell them they can't have ice cream and if they try shaving the cat one more time they'll have to sit in the corner for another few millennia.

See, the problem I have with Devil-Tigers is that you can easily cut a crazy Solar's base out from under him; it's made of humans, after all. A crazy Devil-Tiger (well, crazier) is even worse than a hostile Primordial. Really, the best plan is to educate the Yozis on why what they were wrong - modern psychology has shown that the carrot is much better than the stick. As a Primordial is a whole world to itself, it's much more resistant to change, and while this would make the education more difficult, it would also mean that they could govern with less corruption than a system of humans. Under this model, the Exalted would be placated by receiving small nations to govern as they please, so long as they follow the mandates laid forth by the Primordial Parliament. And we make that Neverborn border fence! :smalltongue:

Story Time

2012-02-16, 09:18 PM

What is Zen-Mu and how it is related to Creation ?:smalleek:

It was originally an Ink Monkey post, Ink Monkeys being what some of the current crop of Exalted developers called themselves when they got permission to start a White-Wolf blog that gave away free Exalted setting mechanics/fluff. It was taken down in the site revamp, but has been collected in various places.

Oh good! I'm glad someone finally cleared this up. Now I can ban it from all my games. :smallsmile:

On an unrelated note, I've been semi-floating today.

Tavar

2012-02-16, 09:25 PM

Any particular reason why?

golentan

2012-02-16, 09:26 PM

Oh good! I'm glad someone finally cleared this up. Now I can ban it from all my games. :smallsmile:

On an unrelated note, I've been semi-floating today.

Seriously? Zen mu is kind of cool. I get some people dislike the ink monkeys, and in some cases rightfully so, but that kind of knee jerk reaction does you little credit as far as your ability to discriminate.

If you're going to hate zen mu, at least read some of it first.

Turalisj

2012-02-16, 09:26 PM

Oh good! I'm glad someone finally cleared this up. Now I can ban it from all my games. :smallsmile:

On an unrelated note, I've been semi-floating today.

Yes! Hang anyone who has anything to do with the Ink Monkeys! Get the torch 'n pitchforks! Core material only! [/sarcasm]

Yuki Akuma

2012-02-16, 09:27 PM

Oh good! I'm glad someone finally cleared this up. Now I can ban it from all my games. :smallsmile:

It's... still absolutely official content, you know.

Also: why would you say it like that? It's almost like you're trying to start an argument about the quality and/or validity of Ink Monkeys content.

KaganMonk

2012-02-16, 10:33 PM

What? People around here intentionally starting arguments about the Ink Monkeys / Official developers? That hasn't happened in at least..... a week?

Draken

2012-02-16, 11:14 PM

Gensh

2012-02-17, 12:13 AM

I also can't see the point of banning one of the few pieces of backstory pertaining to the primordials.

I mean, it is backstory. Of NPCs. What is the point of banning it? Rewriting it, sure (but it is damn good backstory), but banning it just feels pointless.

This, effectively. Whenever I need to describe the setting, I always start from the very beginning and then continue until someone shuts me up. The bit with Zen-Mu is always fun, though, because I get to be all cryptic and metaphorical. Of course, I usually give a Lighter and Softer version of the entire story so that everything looks like a series of misunderstandings rather than a series of blood feuds.
...
I might do a dramatic reading this weekend if I've got time. No one likes reading those blocks of text anyway, so I might as well pre-record it so I'm not repeating myself with every new game.

Rikandur Azebol

2012-02-17, 06:26 AM

Thanks for the explanation. Now ... a theoretical question. Everyone who hadn't their minds eaten/siderealed surely remember the glorious work of Meschlum called "Crumbling Stairs World-Building for Raksha" ... wouldn't the abandoned Zen Mu be a perfect semi-stable ground for this ?

Not to mention that there is possibility that there are still intact relics from the vanquished Primordials left. Possibilities ... chmm.

Creation will end anyway, hopefully without dragging the Wyld along into Oblivion. Possibilities ! :smallcool:

Yes! Hang anyone who has anything to do with the Ink Monkeys! Get the torch 'n pitchforks! Core material only! [/sarcasm]

They aren't Raksha to be chased that way, aren't they ? Why limit it to torches and pitchforks, let's send at them hordes of WoD fans ! :smalltongue:

Story Time

2012-02-17, 07:17 AM

Yes! Hang anyone who has anything to do with the Ink Monkeys! Get the torch 'n pitchforks! Core material only! [/sarcasm]

It's... still absolutely official content, you know.

Also: why would you say it like that? It's almost like you're trying to start an argument about the quality and/or validity of Ink Monkeys content.

No-no! Conflict is not my schtick. :smallbiggrin: I like co-operation. If people feel differently about Ink Monkey material then that's fine. :smallsmile:

Contrary to supposition, I'm glad that new material is added. I'm also glad that there are contributors who are willing to push their minds and creativity in such a way to make a more dynamic setting. I don't hold anything against the contributors personally. That'd just be really mean.

When I was first exposed to Ink Monkeys material I gathered an implicit statement there that, This material is not official. We have to get permission from John Chambers who signs off on it, indicating that nothing that we produce will ever be officially published. That was the gist of it. And that's the way that I've looked at it ever since. Ink Monkey material was home-brew when I first started investigating it. I like home-brew.

But just because I'm idealistic about home-brew doesn't mean I'd want to use it for every game.

Like Kyeudo ( or at least, I think it's like Kyeudo. Sorry if I'm wrong, Kyeudo! :smalleek: ), I like to tell my own tales. I don't like having to tell the same plot over and over with the same places and the same setting. That's not any fun. See where this is going yet...? Being confined to other peoples' stuff strips the fun out of a game for me.

More generically, it's not fun if I try to stifle other peoples' creativity. That's just not right. So feel free to think what you want, but that's my explanation. :smallsmile:

Mr.Bookworm

2012-02-17, 07:36 AM

When I was first exposed to Ink Monkeys material I gathered an implicit statement there that, This material is not official. We have to get permission from John Chambers who signs off on it, indicating that nothing that we produce will ever be officially published. That was the gist of it. And that's the way that I've looked at it ever since. Ink Monkey material was home-brew when I first started investigating it. I like home-brew.

Nope!

At the time, John Chambers was the line developer for Exalted. Every single piece of official content had to go to him for approval so it could get published. His signing off on the Ink Monkeys content indicates that it's canon, not the other way around. This has been confirmed several times by everyone involved with Exalted (I also think it actually got mentioned on the blog itself) and several pieces of published Exalted content built off the things found in the Ink Monkeys blog.

So, no, the Ink Monkeys are just as official as anything you would find in Masters of Jade.

Weimann

2012-02-17, 07:47 AM

Which, of course, doesn't mean you can't completely ignore it anyway. But saying it's not canon is false.

Story Time

2012-02-17, 08:04 AM

I suppose I'm expected to reply...

"Okay." There. Is that enough?

It probably won't change my decision either way. :smallsmile:

Yuki Akuma

2012-02-17, 08:23 AM

It'd be great if you didn't post things that might cause flame wars, though. Like "Looks like I can ban this, then!" without giving any explanation for why you're saying it. :smallwink:

Your Creation May Vary, of course. But everything published by the Ink Monkeys is canon - Zen Mu absolutely exists in the default setting (well, some of it might be left), the Daystar is absolutely a kung fu fighting robot, and so on. Just because it was published for free on the Internet doesn't make it any less official.

Mr.Bookworm

2012-02-17, 08:46 AM

I suppose I'm expected to reply...

"Okay." There. Is that enough?

It probably won't change my decision either way. :smallsmile:

Well, yeah, White Wolf fired the canon ninjas in the last round of layoffs, so there's currently no one who will come to your house and murder you if you don't use or contradict canon material.

I wasn't trying to go "YOU MUST USE AND LOVE THE INK MONKEYS", I was just pointing out that they were in fact canon, not homebrew.

...although I do feel you're missing out on a lot by discounting them. But whatever! To each their own.

Unrelated subject: Ebon Dragon Charm that allows you to bind your opponent's soul to their corpse for eternity, experiencing everything around them but never able to interact with the world, while constantly twisting their memories and perceptions.

Juuuuuuuust right, or not evil enough?

Qaera

2012-02-17, 08:53 AM

Well, yeah, White Wolf fired the canon ninjas in the last round of layoffs, so there's currently no one who will come to your house and murder you if you don't use or contradict canon material.

I wasn't trying to go "YOU MUST USE AND LOVE THE INK MONKEYS", I was just pointing out that they were in fact canon, not homebrew.

...although I do feel you're missing out on a lot by discounting them. But whatever! To each their own.

Unrelated subject: Ebon Dragon Charm that allows you to bind your opponent's soul to their corpse for eternity, experiencing everything around them but never able to interact with the world, while constantly twisting their memories and perceptions.

Juuuuuuuust right, or not evil enough?

Bodies decay. Spec Med for true evil. I think there's a Gentle Repose artifact if you don't want that.

~ ♅

Bitter

2012-02-17, 11:20 AM

Unrelated subject: Ebon Dragon Charm that allows you to bind your opponent's soul to their corpse for eternity, experiencing everything around them but never able to interact with the world, while constantly twisting their memories and perceptions.

Juuuuuuuust right, or not evil enough?

What are the mechanical benefits?

Could be an Ebon Dragon version of Ghost-Eating Technique, but that would make it too similar to the charm that Malfeas has. Is it Godscorch Invective that kills spirits and then torments them for 10,000 years or something?

Perhaps it should allow you to turn them into walking dead when they die, giving their Po soul control of their body and you control over their Po soul while theiir Hun is forced to watch whatever depravities you command it to do?

Yuki Akuma

2012-02-17, 11:56 AM

Gensh

2012-02-17, 12:43 PM

Bitter

2012-02-17, 01:34 PM

Ebon Dragon charms don't need to have mechanical benefits, as long as they have mechanical handicaps (or, for that matter, non-mechanical handicaps) for someone else.

Remember, the Ebon Dragon's Limit Break turns him into a puppy-kicking petty villain, and his abysmally low Virtues means that, unless he literally mind controls himself, he has trouble doing much other than making other people's lives miserable. A charm designed solely to be a **** is absolutely in-theme for his charm set.

Yes, mechanical handicaps for someone else is fine. The thing is, if the charm is just "When you die you suffer loads" that's not a mechanical effect of any kind, either negative for someone else or positive for yourself, it's a purely fluff effect.

Look at Radiant Fury Dissolution (The charm I was thinking of before). It has a very similar fluff effect about causing 10,000 years of agony to the victim as the one being considered, but it has actual mechanical benefits as well (Let's you kill spirits).

Caliphbubba

2012-02-17, 01:35 PM

Turalisj

2012-02-17, 01:36 PM

Eddy already has Life-Denying Hate, which exiles a spirit into a realm of pure darkness for all eternity.

Rockphed

2012-02-17, 01:51 PM

Really? I don't recall that - I remember a discussion about a couple of the power players planning to assassinate Balor. However, I have to thank you, because now you've helped me to decide what not just the Sun, but the other Incarnae were doing for the whole Crusade. It is now just a picture in my head of the Sun very slowly staggering towards the door of the Jade Pleasure Dome, with Luna and the Maidens draped all over him desperately trying to hold him back long enough to keep him from dropping into the middle of the invasion and dying, because Saturn knows that if the Sun goes down there, he'll seriously die, and they can slow him down now because he broke his oath by trying to leave. The Empress triggers her attack just as he beats the other Incarnae by reaching the front door.

"Venus! Grab his leg!"
"I am grabbing his leg!"
"That is not his leg, Venus."
"Shut up, Jupiter!"
"Whatever! I've got his upper left arm! Mercury, grab his spear!"
"No thanks. I'm not Venus."
"His actual spear, Mercury."
"Oh. Right. Got it."
"LET GO OF ME! I MUST PROTECT CREATION!"
"You are going to die. Really, honestly, die."
"Luna, hide the spear!"
"Done. Oh, he's grabbed it again. Okay, it's better hidden this time."
"Mercury, give us a push or something!"
"I'm trying!"
"You could help, Saturn!"
"T-touch him? No, no I couldn't. You're doing fine."

I never did thank you for this. It both paints Sol Invictus in a much better light and is hilarious. *Hat off*

golentan

2012-02-17, 01:53 PM

Hi Playgrounders,

I'm pretty much a Exalted newb.

I'm very interested in the story portions of Exalted and have been picking up different books here and there and reading the fluff parts of them and following your discussions on these threads for awhile now.

That said I feel like there is a lot of stuff I'm missing out on fluff-wise because I'm not reading the crunch of the charms and whatnot.

So my question to you all is this: Is it worth reading the Charms and stuff like that soly for the tid-bits of fluff that seem to be included?

Depends. It gives you a good feel for the scale and power of some of the folks involved, but a lot of the charms are purely mechanical crunchy goodness. If you want to read some charms, I'd suggest going with Infernal charms first. They, IMO, contain the most fluff out of the charmsets, detailing as they often do the life and times of the yozis. If it's not fluffy enough for you, I don't think other charmsets will be either.

Caliphbubba

2012-02-17, 02:02 PM

Depends. It gives you a good feel for the scale and power of some of the folks involved, but a lot of the charms are purely mechanical crunchy goodness. If you want to read some charms, I'd suggest going with Infernal charms first. They, IMO, contain the most fluff out of the charmsets, detailing as they often do the life and times of the yozis. If it's not fluffy enough for you, I don't think other charmsets will be either.

Thanks for the recommendation. I find the yozis/primordials pretty interesting to begin with. They're one of the things I like the best about the setting so that will a good place to start.

Ifni

2012-02-17, 02:12 PM

Hi all, over on the PbP boards we have an Exalted game that's looking for an ST. The original ST got as far as selecting a group and starting an OOC thread, and then vanished (a couple of weeks ago). I was fairly enthusiastic about the characters and the potential interactions between them, so I'd still like to see if we can get the game going.

The group is mixed Celestial Exalts - two Infernals, two Solars, one Abyssal and one Lunar - but the Infernals and the Abyssal are all renegades (in the well-and-truly-burned-their-bridges sense, not the "wondering if the Reclamation is such a great idea" sense). As initially envisaged, we'd be playing in the forests of the East: 4/6 PCs are barbarian/wilderness types.

(We have a cheerfully bloodthirsty bear-totem Full Moon, a very innocent Zenith jungle-girl, a friendly optimistic Scourge who mostly just wants to stay free and work against the Underworld, a Slayer who's convinced that the Immaculate Order is right and all Celestial Exalts sacrificed their souls to demons for power (since hey, that's what he did!), a snarky Realm-born teenage Eclipse, and a nihilist teenage Midnight.)

Anyway, if you might be interested in STing for us, the recruiting thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229077) and the OOC thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230975).

Lix Lorn

2012-02-17, 02:56 PM

a Slayer who's convinced that the Immaculate Order is right and all Celestial Exalts sacrificed their souls to demons for power (since hey, that's what he did!),
I'm not ready to ST, but... whoever's charrie that is, tell them that's an awesome character concept. xD

Ifni

2012-02-17, 04:02 PM

I'm not ready to ST, but... whoever's charrie that is, tell them that's an awesome character concept. xD

It gets better - he's carrying around a stash of Exalted Chick Tracts :smallamused: He posted a sample in the OOC.

(The Zenith jungle-girl has a Gold Faction Sidereal mentor. If he ever meets her new Circle, it's going to be a very special moment.)

Bitter

2012-02-17, 04:19 PM

I'm not ready to ST, but... whoever's charrie that is, tell them that's an awesome character concept. xD

Aw shucks.

Also as Ifni brought it up, here's the Chick Tract which I can't take credit for:

http://i.imgur.com/cTnxt.jpg

Lix Lorn

2012-02-17, 04:24 PM

...win. xD

(Although you probably want to spoiler that. It's big.)

golentan

2012-02-17, 04:46 PM

I'm not ready to ST, but... whoever's charrie that is, tell them that's an awesome character concept. xD

Thank you. Not my character, but I did basically the identical thing with a fiend once. He was the most self hating person ever: He counted as reviled (since he had once had a positive intimacy towards himself) and had the Intolerable Burning Truths that made him "refuse to believe anything good about a reviled character," and made helping reviled characters without imminent threat to life and limb or in service to motivation unacceptable orders.

Yeah...

Aw shucks.

Also as Ifni brought it up, here's the Chick Tract which I can't take credit for:

http://i.imgur.com/cTnxt.jpg

Win. Permission to share that?

Lix Lorn

2012-02-17, 04:50 PM

Thank you. Not my character, but I did basically the identical thing with a fiend once. He was the most self hating person ever: He counted as reviled (since he had once had a positive intimacy towards himself) and had the Intolerable Burning Truths that made him "refuse to believe anything good about a reviled character," and made helping reviled characters without imminent threat to life and limb or in service to motivation unacceptable orders.

Yeah...
Yiiikes. :smallfrown: Can I give him a hug?

Story Time

2012-02-17, 05:35 PM

It'd be great if you didn't post things that might cause flame wars, though. Like "Looks like I can ban this, then!" without giving any explanation for why you're saying it. :smallwink:

...I've already experienced flames through private messages last year. I wasn't impressed. Ponies...Yuki's thoughts on ponies did impress me. I still want to run that game...

In any case the difference between firm and belligerent is fairly clear. I have no intention of tossing hate on people because of their choices, likes, or dislikes. I may disagree, but the second I start using conflict in a conversation and say, "No, you're wrong," then it can become disruptive.

I know where the line is... I just wish more people were on my side of the line than the other.

About canon, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, I've gotten past it. Here in the General Discussion Thread what is, or is not, canon might have some weight. But conflict over it is worse than pointless. Putting together a Fluff Patch for Exalted's setting has shown me that the canon does conflict with itself. Much. If I run a game, it's my job to address those conflicts clearly. The Ink Monkey content having a formal name simply makes that process easier.

Well, yeah, White Wolf fired the canon ninjas in the last round of layoffs

You know, you're kind of funny... Maybe once Sidereal Errata is exposed we'll get some of our ninja back.

Tavar

2012-02-17, 06:37 PM

It's not flaming to call someone out on glaring inconsistencies in a debate, nor to repeatedly ask them to clarify a position after receiving no answer.

Revlid

2012-02-17, 07:30 PM

golentan

2012-02-18, 01:19 AM

Yiiikes. :smallfrown: Can I give him a hug?

No, but you can give me a hug and I'll pass it on.

horngeek

2012-02-18, 01:43 AM

That link diverts to Wikipedia for some reason. :smallconfused:

Turalisj

2012-02-18, 01:58 AM

That link diverts to Wikipedia for some reason. :smallconfused:

Are you looking at it from your phone? Gotta set the default browser viewing to where it won't auto-switch to mobile adapted sites.

Lix Lorn

2012-02-18, 01:47 PM

No, but you can give me a hug and I'll pass it on.
I am okay with this. (hugs Golly)

Bitter

2012-02-18, 02:00 PM

Win. Permission to share that?

Sure, go wild.

Gensh

2012-02-18, 02:35 PM

A slightly more interesting take on the whole "Queen of Hell" thing (from a Skype convo yesterday):

So back in the day, everyone who attempted to get to the Imperial Manse control room died, except young Scarlet, who at some point made a deal with the Ebon Dragon for power and immortality. But see, there aren't any Charms for this. I mean, he could use adapted Cecy Charms, and the Wedding Band effectively makes her a Yozi in her own right, but that's pretty lame.

Back when the Usurpation hit, the Solars reacted in various ways. That one Solar/Lunar couple who never became corrupt went down trying to protect their mortal kingdom from rape-and-pillage dragonblooded. Desus got tricked and backstabbed like a loser. Reactions varied from person to person, based on character and madness.

Queen Merela, now fully aware that even she had lost the favor of Sol, flew into a Malfean, self-aggrandizing rage. She hated herself for becoming a new King of the Titans but she equally hated all her peers for falling with her, just as Malfeas does. Likewise did she hate the dragonblooded and Sidereals for being such cowards even though she consciously knew they couldn't have rebelled fairly. Enraged, she became a blazing sun of vengeance, killing everything nearby. Incidentally, *this* is how 200-something Solars managed to die all at once - friendly fire. While the Sidereals were able to trap the shards of all those that died around her, she would not submit and literally supernova'd, taking anyone left alive with her, her still blazing shard vanishing into the night, burning through space and finding the place it truly belonged, the place of eternal self-inflicted torment – Hell.

The Dragon, of course, found it first. He whispered calming lies to it and took it into his claws, clumsily copying the motions he'd seen Autochthon make on lesser projects. He forged a prototype that he would later refine to create the Green Sun Princes, but without the power of his fellows, he could only change so much. Yet the shard resisted him and would not be contained. He sent demon after demon into Creation, seeking the orihalcum band that had once been Merela's unofficial "engagement" ring from her godly lover. This he reforged in vitriol and his own spite, attuning it with the corrupted but still strong shard. He merely had to wait to find another headstrong young woman whom the shard could bond with.

The young Scarlet wasn't merely offered support in her venture within the Imperial Manse but rather legitimate rulership of Creation. She would be Queen of the children of Gaia and the Chosen who had ruled before them at once - should she reveal her fully glory, none could gainsay her. Yet something happened that the Dragon did not expect: the Empress-to-be took Merela's memories as her own. She did not resist but she did not bow; she became at once the dragonblooded lieutenant who had made the deal and the still-furious Solar Queen, who banished the Dragon's possessed soul without a second thought and marched into the manse's control room unopposed by the automated defenses.

Throughout her reign, she has supported the Wyld Hunt out of spite for her former peers who had become drunk on power and for their Mates who had been so cowardly as to flee to the Wyld. Yet above all else, she continues to hate herself for falling just as far, if not farther. She has groomed Mnemon to be a rival to her so that she can never rest on her laurels and supports the Roseblack in secret so that Mnemon may not rest either. She knew that the Dragon must one day eventually claim his due and bargained with those among the third circle who still remember nobility, she had made plans to thwart her husband-to-be long before he set his own plans in motion. Now, trapped in Hell yet again, she can only wait and hope that her daughter can rise to be the hero she once was and guide Creation to a peaceful future. Yet in her heart of hearts, she hopes above all else that Sol will find it in his heart to come for her, warped as she has become not just by the Ultimate Darkness but by her own.

Lix Lorn

2012-02-18, 03:25 PM

That sounds awesome.

Turalisj

2012-02-18, 03:27 PM

I love that idea Gensh.

horngeek

2012-02-18, 03:59 PM

Dammit Gensh, I already wanted to Play RotSE pretty badly, now you throw something as awesome as that out! :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn

2012-02-18, 04:02 PM

Dammit Gensh, I already wanted to Play RotSE pretty badly, now you throw something as awesome as that out! :smalltongue:
So do Iiii.

Weimann

2012-02-18, 05:38 PM

2.5 update. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=57878)

Update 2/18/12 PM 4:44

We have finished reviewing the 2.5 errata and are putting on the last touches. We are reviewing the Sidereal errata and will be working finishing it over the weekend. I will make another post on Monday to let you know where we are.

A few notes:

Unobstructed Blow, Horrific Wreath, and Crimson Palm Counterstrike are being rewritten as Throne Shadow extensions. Lover's Oath is being adjusted. We are looking at giving it an Overdrive interaction.

Most Essence-restoring Charms have been rewritten to perform a different mechanical function.

Lightspeed Body Dynamics has been removed from the system.

Rikandur Azebol

2012-02-18, 06:01 PM

Wow Gensh, just wow. :belkar:

Andreaz

2012-02-18, 06:25 PM

2.5 update. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=57878)

Hehehe yay! No more LBD ò.ó
I'm a fan of tank-ish builds. Here's hoping 2.5 enables me to make a heavy-duty soak character.

Turalisj

2012-02-18, 06:31 PM

Yeah, I really hope my soak-focused Zenith get's some help with the errata.

Weimann

2012-02-18, 06:36 PM

TDO did say that "Spirit Strengthens the Skin cleans up really nicely". So hopefully, yeah. Making non-perfect soak viable must be in the vein of what they're trying to do here.

Turalisj

2012-02-18, 06:44 PM

The two prereq soak charms to Adamant Skin Technique are wasted charm slots, as it stands.

Lix Lorn

2012-02-18, 07:18 PM

I once built a character around a non-perfect soak charm. She did pretty well, as it was easily optimisable and turned out as basically a slightly cheaper not-quite-perfect.