DM Dilema's

[Olfgar]

So I am going to be running a campaignina littlewhile and I have a half orc barbarian and a human sorc for 2 of my PC's. But the other 2 are roviding me with a dilema.

The first is a druid (IMO one fo the best base classes). He wants to take a vow of poverty, and he already has some imaginitave ways that ive seen to break his characters following all the rules. But Im not to keen on letting the vow of poverty be taken because ive heard some scary stories of players starting to break the game horribly, but I also dont want to stifle his character ideas.

The second, was originally wanting to play a whisper gnome fighter to be the main tank, ebcause...well I dont question some of his decisions any more its easier to smile and nod. But now hes changing it up to a mage tank. Fighter, wizard and then I think something like Argent Savant (or something like that) to boost his mage armor and shield spells, and just take most of the buff spells. I kind of warned him against doing this because if I just toss an anti magic field or dispell magic, then i essentially make his character useless. And again I dont want to make him useless, but I cant seem to sway his opinion.

[Mystify]

Vow of poverty is normally weak... until you stick it on a druid. That route leads madness.

[Olfgar]

Yeah thats what i thought. Monk would ahve been bad enough...but since the druid is really powerful class IMO, that will be scarier. Any tips on the...uh... mage tank?

[Yuki Akuma]

Vow of poverty is normally weak... until you stick it on a druid. That route leads madness.

It's still weaker compared to, say, WBL and Wilding Clasps.

[dsmiles]

It's still weaker compared to, say, WBL and Wilding Clasps.Bazinga! :smallbiggrin:

[Mystify]

Yeah thats what i thought. Monk would ahve been bad enough...but since the druid is really powerful class IMO, that will be scarier. Any tips on the...uh... mage tank?
monks still come out behind. They need magic items more than anyone.


It's still weaker compared to, say, WBL and Wilding Clasps.
Just because there are multiple ways to bypass their no item restriction doesn't mean that they should be allowed to bypass it.

[prufock]

Just because there are multiple ways to bypass their no item restriction doesn't mean that they should be allowed to bypass it.

I think you missed dsmiles' point there. Items > VoP, even on a druid. Druids are just so awesome they don't notice the difference as much.

I'd let the player take VoP, making sure the roleplay restrictions are followed. It isn't likely to break the game. VoP is there more to make the ascetic life playable, not powerful.

EDIT: As for the mage tank, the answer is simple: Don't "toss an anti magic field or dispell magic." At the very least, don't overuse it. He'll have a lower CL, but it shouldn't be that much more of a problem for him than for any spellcaster.
There are probably some PrCs that grant their own spellcasting while maintaining good BAB, though none comes to mind right now. Of course, there are PrCs that grant good BAB and progress spellcasting from a previous class, so convince him to look at Spellsword (for one level) and Abjurant Champion, and take those ASAP if he's going to go through with it.

[TheDarkSaint]

I think there are tons of ways to make a Vow Of Poverty very miserable to take if they just want to twink out with it.

Institute rules on food. If the PC's don't spend X amount of Silver/Gold/Whatever on high quality/quanity food, they take Con damage. Sure, the druid would go out and hunt food, but then you make them choose. Do I spend all my time hunting and gathering berries in the wilderness or do I go on adventures?

Nickle and Dime the PC's to death. Charge them for everything. Have EQ wear out frequently. The Poverty person is going to be in a world of hurt if they can't get simple replacements for armor because they have to give all of their money away.

Make them take Charisma damage if they spend too long in sleeping outside and not practicing hygene that more civilized folks use. It's hard to take someone seriously when they look and smell homeless, cause he sure can't afford rent!

Speaking of rent, what exactly does this druid do in the winter? Put the game in the mountains where the snow is deep. He could beg for shelter, but that is probably out in the stable.


Poverty sucks in real life, which is why very few people take vows of poverty. Make it suck in game too.

[Mystify]

I think you missed dsmiles' point there. Items > VoP, even on a druid. Druids are just so awesome they don't notice the difference as much.

I'd let the player take VoP, making sure the roleplay restrictions are followed. It isn't likely to break the game. VoP is there more to make the ascetic life playable, not powerful.

But a wildshaping druid isn't supposed to have items. They merge into its form. Wildshape clasps bypass that restriction, and they are very problematic. VoP gives them item bonuses without needing items, so it has a similar effect to boost their wildshape. Wildshapes were balanced against a 0-item baseline.
For all other classes, it does make it playable, not powerful. but druids are literally getting bonuses that they shouldn't have.

[Mystify]

I think there are tons of ways to make a Vow Of Poverty very miserable to take if they just want to twink out with it.

Institute rules on food. If the PC's don't spend X amount of Silver/Gold/Whatever on high quality/quanity food, they take Con damage. Sure, the druid would go out and hunt food, but then you make them choose. Do I spend all my time hunting and gathering berries in the wilderness or do I go on adventures?

Nickle and Dime the PC's to death. Charge them for everything. Have EQ wear out frequently. The Poverty person is going to be in a world of hurt if they can't get simple replacements for armor because they have to give all of their money away.

Make them take Charisma damage if they spend too long in sleeping outside and not practicing hygene that more civilized folks use. It's hard to take someone seriously when they look and smell homeless, cause he sure can't afford rent!

Speaking of rent, what exactly does this druid do in the winter? Put the game in the mountains where the snow is deep. He could beg for shelter, but that is probably out in the stable.


Poverty sucks in real life, which is why very few people take vows of poverty. Make it suck in game too.
And druid bypasses all of those, except perhaps hygiene. VoP makes it so you don't have to eat, so thats a non-issue. The poverty person doesn't care about armor wearing out since they aren't using it anyways, esp. not the wildshaping druid. Druids don't even need charisma for anything, so being out and about stinking isn't a problem. And I don't see why that would even be an issue. Soap is within their budget, and you can bath in a river, or a druid can create water.
And the druid can simply wildshape into a cold-hardy form 24/7.

[Tar Palantir]

But a wildshaping druid isn't supposed to have items. They merge into its form. Wildshape clasps bypass that restriction, and they are very problematic. VoP gives them item bonuses without needing items, so it has a similar effect to boost their wildshape. Wildshapes were balanced against a 0-item baseline.
For all other classes, it does make it playable, not powerful. but druids are literally getting bonuses that they shouldn't have.

Even without wilding clasps, for a lot of items you can just take them off, wildshape, then put them on. Magic items naturally resize to accommodate different shapes and sizes (Draconimicon outlines how it works for dragons).

[TheDarkSaint]

Well then, I agree. That's broken.

[gomipile]

But a wildshaping druid isn't supposed to have items. They merge into its form. Wildshape clasps bypass that restriction, and they are very problematic. VoP gives them item bonuses without needing items, so it has a similar effect to boost their wildshape. Wildshapes were balanced against a 0-item baseline.
For all other classes, it does make it playable, not powerful. but druids are literally getting bonuses that they shouldn't have.

Using the words "supposed to" in an open ended game which has rule 0 explicitly
written out in the core ruleset seems contradictory.

[Mystify]

Even without wilding clasps, for a lot of items you can just take them off, wildshape, then put them on. Magic items naturally resize to accommodate different shapes and sizes (Draconimicon outlines how it works for dragons).
That only works if you are walking around in your combative wildshape form constantly. Which you can do, but there is at least some cost to it.

[Mystify]

Using the words "supposed to" in an open ended game which has rule 0 explicitly
written out in the core ruleset seems contradictory.
If you study the structure of the game, it is pretty clear how many things are supposed to work. That they don't work that way in practice is a large part of why D&D ends up so horribly imbalanced. Then they come along later and break those rules themselves in splat books, and you end up with the incantrix.

[Lonely Tylenol]

To answer your question, then, Olfgar: If it's a balance concern, I say definitely let the druid take Vow of Poverty, because even if it's strictly better than the 0-item baseline (as demonstrated here), it's also strictly worse than a druid wildshaping with the full force of WBL at its back.

As for the latter, that is something that you have to decide for yourself as a DM how you want to deal with. I have a character who is optimizing sneak attack damage (and only sneak attack damage) in an e6 game, to the point where their BAB at epic level is going to be lower than the Shadowcaster. Obviously two types of enemies hurt him: enemies that are immune to sneak attacks, and enemies with high AC. Is that going to stop me from throwing, say, an Automaton (MMII, 21 AC, construct) at them? Of course not; these things can exist in your game world without being combative about it. Just make sure that it's self-regulated (you don't go out of your way to gimp him) and you should be fine.

[dsmiles]

And the druid can simply wildshape into a cold-hardy form 24/7.Any animal, really. They're mostly self-cleaning.

[SleepyShadow]

For the mage-tank, it's actually a fairly viable option. With AFCs like Spell Shield and Divine Minion, and spells like Wings of Cover and Stoneskin, it can be pulled off fairly well.

Abjurant Champion is an excellent fighter/mage PrC, as is Jade Phoenix Mage. Also, see if you could talk him into taking Crusader over Fighter, since it will help him out in the 'tank' department far more.

[dsmiles]

[...stuff...]Jade Phoenix Mage. Also, see if you could talk him into taking Crusader over Fighter, since it will help him out in the 'tank' department far more.Either one of those routes would help him keep up with the rest of the party, cooperative contribution-wise.

[SilverLeaf167]

Make them take Charisma damage if they spend too long in sleeping outside and not practicing hygene that more civilized folks use. It's hard to take someone seriously when they look and smell homeless, cause he sure can't afford rent!
I really enjoy the mental image of someone falling into a coma from smelling too terrible :smallbiggrin:

Based on your description of the Mage Tank's mysterious prestige class, he's actually talking about Abjurant Champion. Though one of the best gish builds is Paladin/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion, a Fighter/Wizard entry shouldn't be too horrifyingly bad. On the other hand, it might be wise to remind him that "tanking" in the usual MMO sense doesn't work very well in D&D.

[Heliomance]

Based on your description of the Mage Tank's mysterious prestige class, he's actually talking about Abjurant Champion.

Nah, he probably does mean Argent Savant. It's from CArc, I think, it's a PrC based on Force spells.

[Olfgar]

BAH! hes no changed from fighter to swashbuckler. hes got ADD.

[Olfgar]

And yes, he mentioned to me both Abjurant Champion and Argent Savant, but im not 100% sure on which one he is taking. Either way, just to me, having all your protection based off spells that could be taken away by walking into a certain area or dispelled doesnt seem like a good idea to me.

Now, with his swashbuckler idea, is that hes not going to wear armor and now base it all off dex and magic.

[Lonely Tylenol]

And yes, he mentioned to me both Abjurant Champion and Argent Savant, but im not 100% sure on which one he is taking. Either way, just to me, having all your protection based off spells that could be taken away by walking into a certain area or dispelled doesnt seem like a good idea to me.

Now, with his swashbuckler idea, is that hes not going to wear armor and now base it all off dex and magic.

Honestly, a Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/(Caster PrC 1)/Argent Savant 2-3 build doesn't sound like a tremendously bad idea to me. I mean, if he really wants to get his Armor Class up high, then this would allow Greater Mage Armor to function at +8 (or Mage Armor at +6) and Shield to function at +9 (and each would be double Extended). You also have access to Dragonskin, Haste, Cat's Grace and other goodies as far as AC-based defensive options go, and if all else fails on the melee front, you're still a Wizard. You get Dexterity to hit (and AC) and Intelligence to damage (and your casting stat), and most of your levels will have at least decent HD and BAB.

Sure, the character will be an ugly duckling for awhile, but it does become a swan later on--or, at least, it becomes less of an ugly duckling.

If your Swashbuckler is willing to delay the later benefits of Argent Savant, s/he can take two levels of Swiftblade where that empty caster level stands, and then advance Swiftblade as soon as they're done with Argent Savant. That way, they have a lot of cool melee options per Swiftblade (Haste as a free action, skirmish damage, 20-50% concealment against attacks and targeted magical effects, and so on).

EDIT: Also worth mentioning: if the Swashbuckler player is in the business of delaying gratification, there is also the Factotum, which they can take four levels of in place of three levels of Swashbuckler to get the Factotum's inspiration pool, which it can spend on Int to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, any save, skill checks (plus your Int modifier as a bonus to Str- and Dex- based skills at all times), minor spellcasting abilities, and sneak attack damage. And that's in four levels!

[Randomguy]

There are ways to buff caster level to make it harder to be dispelled. Ring of enduring arcana is a common one, and so is UMD'ing a Prayer Bead of Karma. There are also rings of counterspelling. Besides, dispel magic and antimagic field are equally bad for everyone, since they negate equipment as well. A gish would be better than most wizards in an antimagic field, since gishes can fight without magic, while wizards (except for the initiates of mystra) can't do anything in an antimagic field.

Swashbuckler's not too bad for gishes. It's not great either, but still.

Swash 2/Spellthief 1/Wiz 4/Ab Champ 5/Unseen Seer 8 is a decent build, with +16 BAB and being able to cast 9th level spells.
You could also swap the levels of eldritch knight for levels of unseen seer, if he'd rather be more of a gish and less of a skillgish, and then he gets +18 BAB and no 9th level spells. The level of spellthief could be swapped for a level of swashbuckler in this case.
Argent savant could easily be fit into the build, but it would just make it weaker, since you lose casting and BAB.

Consider making the druid player take the spontaneous casting variant from unearthed arcana or the shapeshift variant from PHB2, to reduce the power level of the character a bit. Even with VoP, the druid is the highest tier class in the group, so a little nerf wouldn't be out of place.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Just remembered Swashbucklers don't have heavy armor proficiency and thus don't qualify for Spellsword.

Ignore that, haha!

You can replace it with two levels of Wizard, or something to that effect.