First ToB in low OP group

[Master Thrower]

Hello playground, i'm playing the first ToB character in a very low OP group, and so I wouldn't some help to make sure this test run of ToB doesn't end in a banning.

The Group is as follows-
Scout/Swashbuckler Dervish (good at dealing damage, and has good skills)
Melee Cleric (No DMM persit)
Sorcerer (of the blaster variety no metamagic reducer abuse)
Thri-keen Paladin/Kensai (going for the tons of attacks route)
Me- So I'm planning on making an unarmed swordsage (to lessen my power) and I wanna focus on setting sun, and shadow hand, but I very much want to not outshine people in the party.

So any advice on stances/maneuvers/feats would be great. Thanks

[Ziegander]

I'll make the blanket suggestion of staying away from Counters entirely, maybe even staying away from Boosts too as much as possible. I've seen DMs with the philosophy that these give you something for "nothing" since non-casters typically cannot use their swift or immediate actions to do anything. It's a "melees can't have nice things" attitude, but it's a common attitude.

What level are you going to be?

If you really want to be as unobtrusive as you possibly can, I'd go with stuff like this:

Setting Sun
Mighty Throw, Step of the Wind, Clever Positioning, Devastating Throw, Giant Killing Style, Comet Throw, Strike of the Broken Shield, Soaring Throw, Ballista Throw

Shadow Hand
Shadow Blade Technique, Island of Blades, Shadow Jaunt, Dance of the Spider, Strength Draining Strike, Shadow Stride, Step of the Dancing Moth, Stalker in the Night, Shadow Blink, Balance on the Sky, Enervating Shadow Strike, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike

[Lonely Tylenol]

My suggestion, given the large number of melee combatants in your group, would actually be to not play a swordsage, but instead play a crusader. Crusaders are front-loaded with several abilities that work well with other melee party members: in level 1, Devoted Spirit has Iron Guard's Glare and Vanguard's Strike, and White Raven has Leading the Attack, as well as the Leading the Charge and Bolstering Voice stances; among the level 2 maneuvers, there are Shield Block in the Devoted Spirit line and Tactical Strike among the White Raven maneuvers; and level 3 has Defensive Rebuke out of Devoted Spirit, and White Raven Tactics out of White Raven. By your fifth level of Crusader, then, you're giving your allies to-hit bonuses (or your enemies to-hit penalties), bonuses to will saves or damage on charges, and every so often, you're giving one of your allies an extra turn, on the house. In a low-op game, this is the ultimate "team player" strategy: as far as Tome of Battle at the table is concerned, everyone else at the table will love it, because Tome of Battle is letting all of them do cool things, not just you.

If you are able to convince the Swashbuckler to switch those Scout levels to Rogue (for Daring Outlaw), you can still be a team player with Island of Blades (the first-level Shadow Hand stance), and maneuvers like Mountain Hammer and Dance of the Spider are also useful for out-of-combat utility, as well, of course, as in-combat (combine Dance of the Spider, for example, with any Tiger Claw maneuver to avoid relying on a jump check). Debuffs in general are your go-to for making your melee allies feel more useful, although the ability drain debuffs I do not recommend. At 4th level, however, you get Strike of the Broken Shield out of Setting Sun (+4d6 damage, renders target flat-footed) and Obscuring Shadow Veil (+5d6 damage, target has 50% miss chance for 1 round) and Hand of Death out of Shadow Hand (paralyzes for 1d3 rounds). In general, though, I would avoid Shadow Hand (as it brings up one of the common criticisms of Tome of Battle, which is that it gives melee too many inherent supernatural abilities, while melee is supposed to be mundane), and instead focus on Setting Sun and, say, Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind.

[rmg22893]

Speaking from experience, you are likely going to be hated. ToB characters in any low-op group outshine most other characters. I played a tiger claw Swordsage (or maybe it was a Warblade...) in a low-op group and they despised me.

[Manateee]

If you don't want to outshine the party, I'd recommend heavy dips into Warblade or Crusader for White Raven access. That sort of character support can make ToB make everyone else feel more useful.

[Master Thrower]

In general, though, I would avoid Shadow Hand (as it brings up one of the common criticisms of Tome of Battle, which is that it gives melee too many inherent supernatural abilities, while melee is supposed to be mundane), and instead focus on Setting Sun and, say, Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind.

Hrmm so if I focused on tiger claw as my secondary discipline, does it worth with unarmed strikes, as i'm not to familiar with tiger claw strikes/stances

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hrmm so if I focused on tiger claw as my secondary discipline, does it worth with unarmed strikes, as i'm not to familiar with tiger claw strikes/stances

Every discipline works with all weapons. The only time favored weapons matter is for some swordsage class features and Blade Meditation.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, Crusader would actually be more low-op friendly because of its team player nature. Load up on White Ravens with some Devoted Spirit healing strikes and stances and you'll be everyone's friend except the DM.

[Ziegander]

I've gotta advise steering clear of tiger claw or diamond mind myself. You're worried about outclassing the other melees already, and tiger claw and diamond mind are very strong melee schools, diamond mind being considered by many to be the best or second-best discipline in the book. Tiger Claw isn't one of the best schools, but it still deals as much damage as any of the most damaging disciplines.

[Ziegander]

Yeah, Crusader would actually be more low-op friendly because of its team player nature. Load up on White Ravens with some Devoted Spirit healing strikes and stances and you'll be everyone's friend except the DM.

Bolded, italicized, and underlined for emphasis.

That's why I'd advise steering clear of the Crusader too. They are "too tanky" for a lot of DMs to handle, they end up dealing too much damage, their healing stuff gets a lot of DMs angry, and White Raven Tactics will get books thrown at you.

[dsmiles]

I've found that mixing Swordsage with an equal number of levels of a core class (such as Rogue) tends to bring ToB classes down a notch.

[Greymane]

I've found that mixing Swordsage with an equal number of levels of a core class (such as Rogue) tends to bring ToB classes down a notch.

I'd like to echo this. If you're worried about out-classing the others? Just use the ToB for dips. The classes all work wonderfully with them, and some (I'm looking at you Crusader Stance Progression) get fixed with a little multiclassing.

[dsmiles]

I'd like to echo this. If you're worried about out-classing the others? Just use the ToB for dips. The classes all work wonderfully with them, and some (I'm looking at you Crusader Stance Progression) get fixed with a little multiclassing.Don't get me wrong, a Swordsage/Rogue still hits things (LIKE A BOSS!). But in a low-op group it takes it from "OMGWTFBBQ!?!?!?" to "Wow! You can DO that?"

[Amphetryon]

Every discipline works with all melee weapons. The only time favored weapons matter is for some swordsage class features and Blade Meditation. FTFY. There are very few maneuvers/stances that work with ranged weapons. They exist, but they're a tiny minority.

[Hiro Protagonest]

FTFY. There are very few maneuvers/stances that work with ranged weapons. They exist, but they're a tiny minority.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the only maneuvers that don't work at range are strikes. Boosts work. Stances are fine if they do something other than augment your attacks. But yeah, if it specifies melee weapon, it's only melee. Although I think that technically, melee weapons with ranged increments are still counted as melee weapons when thrown.

[undead hero]

Stay a couple levels below them and you should be just fine. Seriously -_-;;;

Take anything you want :p just stay a couple levels below the rest of them and you will still be useful.

Halfling (tallfellow) Rogue 1/ Swordsage X pick your maneuvers at random (literally).

Though take one Diamond Mind Maneuver... The one that gives you a concentration check in place of will save... :p

[Hiro Protagonest]

Though take one Diamond Mind Maneuver... The one that gives you a concentration check in place of will save... :p

But swordsages already have good will saves.

[DeltaEmil]

If you regularely put points into a skill, then the Concentration skill (+ Constitution modifier) will be a lot higher than the will save. Also, you don't automatically fail on a natural 1, because it's a skill-roll that replaces the saving throw, so it's always valuable.

[undead hero]

If you regularely put points into a skill, then the Concentration skill (+ Constitution modifier) will be a lot higher than the will save. Also, you don't automatically fail on a natural 1, because it's a skill-roll that replaces the saving throw, so it's always valuable.

Yep yep, you might as well eventually get the fortitude and Reflex save ones as well since its hard to fail the save -_-;;

Also make sure you stay in a shadow hand stance with the feat dex to damage.

[jaybird]

Stay away from Diamond Mind, as others have said.

If you want to drop your power level, take a level of Monk for every level of Unarmed Swordsage, and ask your DM to let the unarmed strike progression stack. Should work.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Maybe just take counters and boosts. Strikes are flat-out powerful, but boosts and counters are (usually) more subtle. The DM won't complain when you make a save as much as when you one-shot a monster. Any boost that augments attack shouldn't be used though. The strikes you could slip under the radar are Sapphire Nightmare Blade and Emerald Razor, as long as you don't just use Emerald Razor to PA for a bunch.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, if you can't get everyone or at least all of the melee to try it out at least via dipping then you really are relegated to dipping it yourself.

Which is just fine because ToB is very dip-friendly.

[tiercel]

I'll make the blanket suggestion of staying away from Counters entirely, maybe even staying away from Boosts too as much as possible. I've seen DMs with the philosophy that these give you something for "nothing" since non-casters typically cannot use their swift or immediate actions to do anything. It's a "melees can't have nice things" attitude, but it's a common attitude.

In a low-op group, it might not be so much "melees can't have nice things" but the Swordsage might conceivably be almost the only one even USING swift/immediate actions. If your character is seen as "the only one who gets to do two different things every round" or "the only one who gets to go on other peoples' turns" you're more likely to invite DM banhammering.

It's not an absolute rule -- if you only have one or two maneuvers that work this way, especially if they are situational, it probably won't be such a problem ("yeah it works kinda like feather fall").

I just mention this because it's one of my pet peeves about spellcasters vs nonspellcasters -- it's not enough that spellcasters get the added flexibility of casting spells, but that they also get a whole set of swift/immediate actions that most nonspellcasters essentially don't (unless using ToB).

[Helldog]

What stops you from just talking to your DM and warning him that ToB might seem a little powerful? Don't get me wrong, building your char. specifically so he won't overshadow anyone is okay and you definitely should do it, but also telling your DM "Hey, I'm purposefully nerfing myself, so don't even think about crying 'Too powerful, BAN!'" should make it more likely that he'll trust you with it.

[dsmiles]

If you want to drop your power level, take a level of Monk for every level of Unarmed Swordsage, and ask your DM to let the unarmed strike progression stack.There's an app feat for that. IIRC, it's called Monk Training (or something like that) and it's in one of the Eberron books.

[Hiro Protagonest]

There's an app feat for that. IIRC, it's called Monk Training (or something like that) and it's in one of the Eberron books.

Monastic Tradition doesn't do that. Tashalatora which requires that, does that, but it only works for psionic classes.

[Greenish]

There's an app feat for that. IIRC, it's called Monk Training (or something like that) and it's in one of the Eberron books.Monastic Training will let you multiclass between monk and class X freely. It does nothing for combining two separate unarmed strike damage progressions (nor does any other feat, as far as I know).

[dsmiles]

Meh. Could've sworn that there was a feat that did that. I was wrong, it happens.

EDIT: I was thinking of the "Ascetic X" series of feats. Complete Adventurer. Sadly, none for the ToB classes (though there's no reason it couldn't be homebrewed very easily.)

[Libertad]

Why are you concerned with a ban? Does your GM have a negative attitude towards Tome of Battle? I'd recommend communicating with your DM ahead of time and see where he stands on the issue. Is he familiar with the material?

I'd recommend going Crusader with it's "team player" nature unless somebody else is covering the group "tank" role.

Also, is your group low-powered intentionally? If not, it's possible that one or more players may outshine the other accidentally (such as the melee Cleric with certain spells), and it may be very hard to hold back your power.

[Master Thrower]

Why are you concerned with a ban? Does your GM have a negative attitude towards Tome of Battle? I'd recommend communicating with your DM ahead of time and see where he stands on the issue. Is he familiar with the material?

I'd recommend going Crusader with it's "team player" nature unless somebody else is covering the group "tank" role.

Also, is your group low-powered intentionally? If not, it's possible that one or more players may outshine the other accidentally (such as the melee Cleric with certain spells), and it may be very hard to hold back your power.

The group is not low powered by choice, just many new players. And im concerened with a ban as the DM is being nice (and as a friend) letting me show him ToB in our game, and i've already talked to him about it, and he says he'll take most stuff with consideration, so im trying to keep it low key.

[Libertad]

If you have new players, I'd recommend having the more experienced players help them out into making the types of characters they want to play. Don't demand or make their characters for them (unless they ask for it), just make suggestions for effectiveness: "If you want to be a good mounted charger, I'd recommend Spirited Charge over Weapon Focus (Lance)."

[TroubleBrewing]

I have to agree with all of the Crusader suggestions.

It provides powerful benefits for low investment, plus it gives your allies more power.

Your DM is less likely to ban the book if five people disagree.

[DeAnno]

The Group is as follows-
Scout/Swashbuckler Dervish (good at dealing damage, and has good skills)
Melee Cleric (No DMM persit)
Sorcerer (of the blaster variety no metamagic reducer abuse)
Thri-keen Paladin/Kensai (going for the tons of attacks route)
Me- So I'm planning on making an unarmed swordsage (to lessen my power) and I wanna focus on setting sun, and shadow hand, but I very much want to not outshine people in the party.


I think people are overlooking that really this group is not too bad, or at least not the Sword & Board level of bad we often associate with low OP.

-Dervish is possible to screw up pretty badly in general if built wrong, but Scout/Swash is the right idea and it's been proclaimed to be a good damage dealer.

-A Cleric is a Cleric, and even if it isn't being piloted with too much particular skill you could just suggest a useful spell or three to be prepared every once and so often and it'll do well.

-The Sorcerer could be more problematic, but he's the only ranged damage dealer in the whole party so that's something even if his damage is not that good (encourage him to buy/look for some metamagic rods of Empower/Maximize/etc and that will help a lot giving a low OP blaster some punch). Also next time he levels up if he seems like he's really falling behind point him at Arcane Fusion or Celerity and suddenly it will be hard for him to suck too badly. The DM is also unlikely to nerf those if he is already visibly a weaker member of the team.

-Thrikreen dude is hard to predict without knowing more about his build, it doesn't seem like he has very many sources of precision or bonus damage so he could end up experiencing some issues. In general though Thri is pretty much the best ECL 4 race in the game (arguably it is alone with Pixie as anything resembling a "fair" deal) so he has some potential. If he's having trouble making full attacks try to encourage him to look at ToB himself, and either use a feat or dip Warblade 1 to get Sudden Leap (which is pretty much the Thri-Kreen's favorite maneuver).

In general most of your party members seem like they can be brought up to at least fairly competent with nothing but a small nudge here and there, so I doubt anything as unassuming as a straight classed Unarmed Swordsage will be too problematic.

[Psyren]

For a low-Op group - rather than a ToB class, I would just play Fighter and pile on various ToB feats. Sort of a "Warblade-lite."

[Master Thrower]

Well here is the character I ended up going with-

Unarmed Swordsage 6
Feats-
1.Adaptive style, Improved initiative
3. Weapon Finesse
6. Shadow Blade

I focused on Setting Sun, and some Shadow Hand.

The DM okayed most of it, and the adventuring day was spent with me being semi-sneaky, and hurling people around the battle field when i got the chance.

Some choices i made- No assassin's stance, I instead went with Dance of the Spider.

I took a lot of the redundant throws- Might Throw, Devastating Throw, Comet Throw Etc.

The Shadow hand stuff despite being supernatural, I got okayed because I fluffed myself as a Ninja trained in the supernatural.

Stone Dragon- Stone hammer turned out to be an all star in terms of flavor helping me shatter through people's defenses and objects alike.

All around a successful day, although baffling defense got the hammer because the DM thought it could be boosted high enough to always make me untouchable. Not a huge loss, but still not fantastic.

Also the DM and I both wondered this, can you use maneuvers in a grapple?

[Hiro Protagonest]

All around a successful day, although baffling defense got the hammer because the DM thought it could be boosted high enough to always make me untouchable. Not a huge loss, but still not fantastic.
Did you explain you can only use it about once per encounter, unless you took a full round action?

Also the DM and I both wondered this, can you use maneuvers in a grapple?

Yes. Highly disputed, but given that there are stances specifically made for grappling and they don't have the clause "you can use this stance in a grapple", you can use stances in a grapple, and therefore maneuvers as well.

[DeltaEmil]

It depends if being grappled does count as not being able to move.
Now, if being grappled (or grappling a foe) does count as being unable to move (normally), then you can use a stance in a grapple if you initiated the stance before you were grappling, but you could not initiate a stance or a maneuver while you're grappling.

[dsmiles]

Well here is the character I ended up going with-

Unarmed Swordsage 6
Feats-
1.Adaptive style, Improved initiative
3. Weapon Finesse
6. Shadow Blade

I focused on Setting Sun, and some Shadow Hand.


I find it odd that you didn't take Superior Unarmed Strike. Also, I think some boosts can be used in a grapple, and maybe some Stone Dragon maneuvers. There are a few of those that give you a bonus to grapple checks. I played a Half-Ogre Unarmed Stone Dragon Warblade that liked to grapple. For obvious reasons. :smallwink: