Gestalt Thread

[shadow_archmagi]

Brief Description of Gestalt

So, gestalt is when you take two classes and mash them together. Anything that both classes give (BAB, HD, Saves) you pick the better one. Any class features that don't overlap, you just keep both.

So, for example, a Level 3 Rogue//Wizard would get the skillpoints of a rogue, the HP of a rogue, the BAB of a rogue, the Reflex save of a rogue, the Will save of a wizard, and Fortitude would stay the same because wizard and rogue both have identical charts.

He'd get Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Evasion, and Trap Sense from his rogue half, and Summon Familiar and Scribe Scroll from the wizard half, as well as wizard spell-casting.


So, two things for the playground to discuss:

What combinations are particularly powerful/interesting?

Do you prefer to use gestalt to maximize your character's ability in one area, or to try to cover more ground?

IE:
1. "I love playing Fighters, so when we switched to Gestalt, I started playing Barbarian Fighters so now I have loads of feats *and* Rage!"

or

2. "I can never decide between playing Rogue and Wizard, so now I can be a Rogue//Wizard and when something needs magic I can cast spells and when something needs backflips I can be a rogue at it."

[Newoblivion]

I think that Druid Monk come to mind as a powerful combo.. though I think that if I had the chance to make a character I would've go for Rogue Warlock :)

[SirFredgar]

Brief Description of Gestalt

So, gestalt is when you take two classes and mash them together. Anything that both classes give (BAB, HD, Saves) you pick the better one. Any class features that don't overlap, you just keep both.

So, for example, a Level 3 Rogue//Wizard would get the skillpoints of a rogue, the HP of a rogue, the BAB of a rogue, the Reflex save of a rogue, the Will save of a wizard, and Fortitude would stay the same because wizard and rogue both have identical charts.

He'd get Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Evasion, and Trap Sense from his rogue half, and Summon Familiar and Scribe Scroll from the wizard half, as well as wizard spell-casting.


So, two things for the playground to discuss:

What combinations are particularly powerful/interesting?

Do you prefer to use gestalt to maximize your character's ability in one area, or to try to cover more ground?

IE:
1. "I love playing Fighters, so when we switched to Gestalt, I started playing Barbarian Fighters so now I have loads of feats *and* Rage!"

or

2. "I can never decide between playing Rogue and Wizard, so now I can be a Rogue//Wizard and when something needs magic I can cast spells and when something needs backflips I can be a rogue at it."

Well, generally the mindset is: One side of the gestalt will use your actions. As in, wizard casting spells, or a melee's attacks. The other side of the gestalt should be used to improve apon that action. You don't want to end up with two classes that require you spend actions to activate their abilities, otherwise you have to pick and choose for that action, meaning for that action you aren't really gestalt at all.

Now, personally, one of my favorite Gestalt Builds of all time was Counterspell Sorcerer on one side, the other side was several dips to get Cha to Saves, and Cha to AC twice, among other things. Then mean that I had obsecene AC (for our group, anyways) that couldn't really be hit without magic. Oh... and if they used magic I would jsut counter it as an immediate action, and then continue blasting the -really- sad opponent the next.

[Medic!]

Warlock/Scout has always been a favorite of mine, along with the druid/monk (before I found that awesome UA variant to make a druid with monk abilities)

Talked a DM into letting me do an orc frenzied berserker/war hulk once....once. Headlong Rush ahoy!

I tend to go with gestalt combos that enhance eachother as opposed to being more versitile. We also tend to run bigger groups (6-7 players) so it makes things a hair more table-friendly not branching out into other party roles.

[Curious]

My favorite is Warblade 20// Factotum 20.

I'm better than you at everything!

Disclaimer: 'You' does not include arcane, divine, or psionic full casters.

[Metahuman1]

I like sticking dips for nice things on one side, and a fairl straight progression on the other. Then on the dips side, stick a tone of LA or a monster class progression there to give you neat thinks and massive ability boosters.

Like a Succubus or a Lillend with dips into Spirit Lion totem Barbarian, Cleric, and a couple of classes that grant Cha to saves and AC on one side, and Just straight Bard or Bard/Warblade or Bard/Sublime Chord on the other.

[DaMullet]

The only gestalt character I've ever made was not chosen because it offered any mechanical advantage (In fact, quite the opposite): The Bardbarian. I like the name, and they both wear light armor. Other than that, no synergies whatsoever, but I still enjoyed playing him immensely.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warblade or factotum paired with any intelligence based caster, or just warblade//factotum.

Druid//monk isn't very powerful. It's the same skill points, just a bigger list, one extra good save, same BAB, same hit die, and a couple unarmed strikes on top of the natural attacks and some extra AC if you don't have a way to retain armor in Wild Shape, as well as some other stuff. Druid//rogue has more skill points, more skills, and either sneak attack or fighter feats, as well as some other stuff.

In gestalt, I tend to try and cover all the bases. Hit points, BAB, action economy, spells, saves.

[Kerikath]

I'm glad I found this thread, I'd like to ask for advice on building a gestalt character I'm currently playing in Pathfinder, if that's okay. You see, my DM has lost his mind and started a game wherein all of the PCs have gestalt classes, and virtually everything from 3.5 and Pathfinder is allowed, including 3rd party material.:belkar:

My character is 3rd level and a mix of artificer, erudite, and spellslinger. I'll be going into cerebremancer in two levels. Can anyone tell me if there's another prestige class that grants full caster and manifester progressions? And can anyone recommend any feats that lower the cost of item creation? Through a combination of class features and feats I've acquired Scribe Scroll, Extraordinary Artisan, Craft Wondrous Item, Apprentice (Craftsman), and Psicrystal Affinity, among other feats and features. I'm considering acquiring Mechanikal Secrets, Rugged Mechaninka, and Extra Rings.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm glad I found this thread, I'd like to ask for advice on building a gestalt character I'm currently playing in Pathfinder, if that's okay. You see, my DM has lost his mind and started a game wherein all of the PCs have gestalt classes, and virtually everything from 3.5 and Pathfinder is allowed, including 3rd party material.:belkar:

My character is 3rd level and a mix of artificer, erudite, and spellslinger. I'll be going into cerebremancer in two levels. Can anyone tell me if there's another prestige class that grants full caster and manifester progressions? And can anyone recommend any feats that lower the cost of item creation? Through a combination of class features and feats I've acquired Scribe Scroll, Extraordinary Artisan, Craft Wondrous Item, Apprentice (Craftsman), and Psicrystal Affinity, among other feats and features. I'm considering acquiring Mechanikal Secrets, Rugged Mechaninka, and Extra Rings.

Gestalt suggests (not states, suggests, but this is the closest thing we have to RAW) not allowing dual-progression PrCs.

Are you sure you want to break this game? Are the other players in with this or is it just you trying to prove a point?

[thompur]

Warlock//Binder

More specifically:

Warlock14/Hellfire Warlock 3/Chameleon 3//Binder 20

[Kerikath]

Gestalt suggests (not states, suggests, but this is the closest thing we have to RAW) not allowing dual-progression PrCs.
I'm not leveling two PrCs, though. Artificer, erudite, and spellslinger are all base classes. My specific levels are artificer-spellslinger 1 + artificer-erudite 2. I'll gain another level of artificer-erudite and then go into artificer-cerebremancer.


Are you sure you want to break this game? Are the other players in with this or is it just you trying to prove a point?
I'm sure I want to break the game, and all the other players are also trying to break it as well. Our DM told us flat out that he would be trying to murder us. I still think he's insane, but he's increased the challenge such that we can't afford to be stupid at all, at least for the time being.

[Curious]

Warlock//Binder

More specifically:

Warlock14/Hellfire Warlock 3/Chameleon 3//Binder 20

So much delicious flavor synergy.

[VarianArdell]

I'm not leveling two PrCs, though. Artificer, erudite, and spellslinger are all base classes. My specific levels are artificer-spellslinger 1 + artificer-erudite 2. I'll gain another level of artificer-erudite and then go into artificer-cerebremancer.

but cerebremancer is a dual-progression prestige class, ie: a PrC that progresses two distinct class abilities, most notably some variation of casting (or in this case, casting/manifesting).

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm not leveling two PrCs, though. Artificer, erudite, and spellslinger are all base classes. My specific levels are artificer-spellslinger 1 + artificer-erudite 2. I'll gain another level of artificer-erudite and then go into artificer-cerebremancer.
I mean PrCs like Mystic Theurge, Arcane Heirophant, and Cerebremancer.

I'm sure I want to break the game, and all the other players are also trying to break it as well. Our DM told us flat out that he would be trying to murder us. I still think he's insane, but he's increased the challenge such that we can't afford to be stupid at all, at least for the time being.

Alright then. In that case, Chaos Mage (Quintessential Mage or Wizard or whatever from Mongoose Publishing)//Factotum or warblade (depending if you want to break the action economy even more or want a better chance to survive direct damage). Maybe a two level monk dip on the factotum/warblade side for better saves and Evasion, and the Kung Fu Genius feat for int to AC instead of wis, if you don't go for armor with 0 ASF. For Chaos Mage, just look up wizard handbooks (Batman and GOD) and the Mailman (a sorc handbook, but still works).

[DocWoollybear]

Psion 20// Factotum 8/ Warblade 12
1. Grab schism and cunning surge
2. Snap action economy over my knee
3. ????
4. Profit!

[Tvtyrant]

I like Druid/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper//Cleric/Contemplative/Seeker of the Misty Isle

You get to cast all day buffs on yourself as a shifter.

[Kerikath]

Okay, here's the deal: My DM has allowed dual progression prestige classes, as long as you don't take two at the same time. I'll be leveling artificer for all twenty levels. I just want another prestige class with dual progressions for when I've taken all ten cerebremancer levels. I won't be taking levels in two prestige classes at the same time. If that doesn't answer your concern Varian, you need to communicate more clearly what you find wrong with what I'm saying.

Jade Dragon, nothing you've suggested seems to address what I asked for at all. Neither the chaos mage, factotum, warblade, or monk advance manifesting and spell progressions. And I don't think any of the feats related to those things would make item creation cheaper.:smallconfused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay, here's the deal: My DM has allowed dual progression prestige classes, as long as you don't take two at the same time. I'll be leveling artificer for all twenty levels. I just want another prestige class with dual progressions for when I've taken all ten cerebremancer levels. I won't be taking levels in two prestige classes at the same time. If that doesn't answer your concern Varian, you need to communicate more clearly what you find wrong with what I'm saying.

Jade Dragon, nothing you've suggested seems to address what I asked for at all. Neither the chaos mage, factotum, warblade, or monk advance manifesting and spell progressions. And I don't think any of the feats related to those things would make item creation cheaper.:smallconfused:

...I thought you just wanted power, and were open to suggestions.

I don't know of any other PrCs, but unless you're willing to lose out on straight artificer, it's going to be weaker than straight StP erudite.

[Greenish]

The only gestalt character I've ever made was not chosen because it offered any mechanical advantage (In fact, quite the opposite): The Bardbarian. I like the name, and they both wear light armor. Other than that, no synergies whatsoever, but I still enjoyed playing him immensely.Well, there's the synergy of having all that great bard buffing to boost your melee capabilities. Just Inspire Courage alone (not even mentioning DFI) is pretty sweet for a melee class. Also, all good saves and good BAB and skill points.


I usually aim at covering more ground with gestalt characters, just because I can. Something like Duskblade//Wilderness feat rogue with all good saves, good BAB, great skills, lots of feats etc. is pretty much what I look for in gestalt. Or psywar//PF soulknife.

That, or springing races you normally wouldn't use due to RHD/LA, like tauric kobold phynxkin or were-serval whisper gnome.

[Kerikath]

...I thought you just wanted power, and were open to suggestions.

I don't know of any other PrCs, but unless you're willing to lose out on straight artificer, it's going to be weaker than straight StP erudite.
I do want a powerful build, but I did ask for specific things. You see, I'll be probably be able to make an adamantine golem by level 16 for 47,250gp, and it'll have +2hp, +60hp, and 15 bonus feats. It's not an infinite power loop, but it's still quite broken. If I have 8 of those things by level 20, and I bet I will, I'll be something like a CR 28 encounter all on my own.

[Greenish]

I do want a powerful buildThat'll be half-giant, goliath, eneko or red cap. :smalltongue:


A gestalt build I once even got to play was the grand Ranger2/Barbarian1/Fighter2/Revenant Blade5/Eternal Blade10//Swordsage20. Om, nom, nom.

[kardar233]

A favourite Gestalt of mine is the WarBardLock:

Warlock6/Cloistered Cleric1/Harmonious Knight Prestige Paladin of Tyranny2/Hellfire Warlock3/Legacy Champion8//Bard4/Warlock16

Make sure you're a Dragonwrought Kobold.

Rapidstrike, Beast Strike, UAS, Eldritch Claws and Dragonfire Inspiration.

9 hits of 44d6 damage each.

Also, if you want to be absolutely mean:


1. Archivist1//Sha’ir1
2. Archivist2//Sha’ir2
3. Archivist3//Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian1
4. Archivist4//Sha’ir3
5. Cloistered Cleric1//Sha’ir4
6. Dweomerkeeper1//Sha’ir5
7. Dweomerkeeper2//Mindbender1
8. Dweomerkeeper3//Bone Knight1
9. Warblade1//Bone Knight2
10. Ruby Knight Vindicator1//Incantatrix1
11. Ruby Knight Vindicator2//Incantatrix2
12. Ruby Knight Vindicator3//Incantatrix3
13. Bone Knight3//Raumathari Battlemage1
14. Bone Knight4//Ruby Knight Vindicator4
15. Bone Knight5//Ruby Knight Vindicator5
16. Ruby Knight Vindicator6//Bone Knight6
17. Bone Knight7//Ruby Knight Vindicator7
18. Ruby Knight Vindicator8//Dweomerkeeper4
19. Spelldancer1//Ruby Knight Vindicator9
20. Bone Knight8//Ruby Knight Vindicator10

[Mystify]

I did a druid/fighter once. Druid on one side progressing wildshape and casting, then fighter on the other to get combat feats. It then took the fighter side and went into nature's warrior and warshaper, thereby boosting my wildshape powers. It was quite brutal. You can do much better in gestalt, of course, but it was quite effective.

[DeAnno]

One thing I often notice with gestalts is they are often very feat poor, since they essentially have twice as many class levels of features per feat they can choose to support or complement them. This generally means classes which give bonus feats and PRCs which either consume few feats on entry or give out bonus feats themselves are more favorable than usual. I see a lot of melee gestalts dip Fighter 2, and a LOT of Arcane gestalts (more than usual even!) like to run Incantatrix as their PRC due to all its bonus feats.

Another thing about Gestalt that can be a bone of contention is how ECL is handled, particularly with regards to LA and HD. I've seen a lot of groups run it up one side, but LA in particular feels sort of odd alone on the side of a Gestalt and I ran a campaign once where LA occupied both sides but was also divided by two (rounded up). Either way, the passive boosts monsters tend to get make Giants, Lycanthropes, and even other more esoteric things much more viable to play in Gestalt than they would usually be.

[shadow_archmagi]

I feel like Gestalt is at its best when people use it to cover more ground than when they aim for synergy; playing a Swordsage/Fighter or a Giant/Swordsage so you can devour all that extra BAB or STR or whatever strikes me as being less fun;

both for the players who have to deal with one guy being twice as murderous as everyone else, and for the GM who has to deal with that too.

I've made my fair share of "What if I went Swordsage on one side and then dipped full BAB classes to tack a bunch of awesome combat feats and abilities onto it?" characters, and I'm not sure I want to anymore.

[hex0]

Swashbuckler 3/Factotum 3
Warblade 2/Monk 2 (with Carmendine Monk)

Int to a bunch of stuff?

Paladin of Freedom 2/Wilder 2
Battledancer X

Cha to stuff.

Also, Warhulk and Survivor.

Edit: And some combo of Halfing Paragon, Warblade, Invisible Blade, Whisper Knife, Halfling Rogue sub levels, and Bloodstorm Blade....is easy in Gestalt.

[playswithfire]

I generally shoot for classes that complement each other in some way, though exactly how they do that varies depending on the mood I'm in and the type of character. Personally, I like to end up with Full BAB characters with decent hit dice and 3 good saves and, ideally, decent skill points, but that's because I like to play melee characters or, in gestalt, gish characters. Examples:
Barbarian//Swordsage is usually a good starting place for me. Make him a goliath and use Wolf Totem for Improved Trip without worrying about Combat Expertise and the 13 INT requirement and enjoy tossing people with Setting Sun maneuver. Or maybe focus on Tiger Claw and dip Fist of the Forest on the barbarian side.
Crusader//Bard is everybody's best friend in a fight
Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms and/or Warshaper//Cloistered Cleric to be an ever better druid than the druid.