Heartfire Fanner: Why doesn't anyone ever talk about it? [Archive]

Rossebay

2012-02-11, 06:57 PM

It's from Dragon #314. It grants full casting, 6+ skills, d6 hd, Bardic Music and all iteratives of it, with some bonuses, and more inter-party buffing abilities than you can shake a stick at.

Oh, and while you're at it, you can use one of those Harmonizing weapons or whatever and increase the duration.

I've found a new true love.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-11, 07:00 PM

I don't own Dragon Magazines.

Flickerdart

2012-02-11, 07:03 PM

That's probably the reason - it's from an obscure and frowned-upon source. There are many Bard PrCs from more common sources that have already established themselves as extremely solid, so obscure ones like Heartfire Fanner tend to get left out.

Coidzor

2012-02-11, 08:02 PM

It's mostly known as a way to make a non-bard into a bard and as a way to optimize Inspire Courage.

Comes up from time to time.

Rossebay

2012-02-11, 08:07 PM

It's mostly known as a way to make a non-bard into a bard and as a way to optimize Inspire Courage.

Comes up from time to time.

Yeah, that's what excited me most about it. I've got a sorcerer that I can turn into a Bard, now.

Coidzor

2012-02-11, 08:30 PM

Yeah, that's what excited me most about it. I've got a sorcerer that I can turn into a Bard, now.

Add on War Weaver and you can have some fun party buffing times, I do believe.

Rossebay

2012-02-11, 08:53 PM

Add on War Weaver and you can have some fun party buffing times, I do believe.

Oooh. Yeah, I might.

I'm going to be using Fatespinner, though. Oddly enough, I want as many base sorcerer levels as possible, as I get bonus feats every 3 levels as a normal sorcerer.

Coidzor

2012-02-11, 09:15 PM

Oooh. Yeah, I might.

I'm going to be using Fatespinner, though. Oddly enough, I want as many base sorcerer levels as possible, as I get bonus feats every 3 levels as a normal sorcerer.

Those have to be some feats to be worth it.

Rossebay

2012-02-11, 09:17 PM

Those have to be some feats to be worth it.

Any Metamagic, Reserve, Item Creation, or Heritage feats that I want. I can grab things that deal with Metamagic too, like Practical Metamagic and such.

IdleMuse

2012-02-11, 10:28 PM

Re: Thread title - Because generally, people online talk about optimisation (be it theoretical or practical), and most optimisation guidelines disallow Dragon Magazine content (mostly because of the EXTREME POWER LEVEL VARIATION it demonstrates). IRL, i've had DMs who'd be only too happy to let me take random dragmag/3rdparty/homebrew content if it isn't abusable and is flavorful, but generally, I'm not gonna play heavy op characters in an IRL game.

Additionally, anyone with a large enough access to obscure material will likely not need to ask questions about it on a forum, and it'll never get suggested on a thread due to obscurity.

Just some theorising :smallwink:

Benly

2012-02-12, 03:33 AM

Re: Thread title - Because generally, people online talk about optimisation (be it theoretical or practical), and most optimisation guidelines disallow Dragon Magazine content (mostly because of the EXTREME POWER LEVEL VARIATION it demonstrates). IRL, i've had DMs who'd be only too happy to let me take random dragmag/3rdparty/homebrew content if it isn't abusable and is flavorful, but generally, I'm not gonna play heavy op characters in an IRL game.

Actually, optimization forums loved Heartfire Fanner back in the day. I'm not really sure where optimization enters into this.

You do touch upon what I'm pretty sure are the actual reasons: Dragon content is often treated as second-class material because it's frequently questionably-balanced and because getting hold of back issues for some PrC you want is a pain in the behind.

Wings of Peace

2012-02-12, 03:45 AM

Actually, optimization forums loved Heartfire Fanner back in the day. I'm not really sure where optimization enters into this.

You do touch upon what I'm pretty sure are the actual reasons: Dragon content is often treated as second-class material because it's frequently questionably-balanced and because getting hold of back issues for some PrC you want is a pain in the behind.

This essentially. I saw it a lot on the old 339 boards but most of the time afterwards the OP would mention that their DM doesn't allow content from Dragon. It's sort of like how nobody brings up swarm familiars anymore.

kulosle

2012-02-12, 06:02 AM

This essentially. I saw it a lot on the old 339 boards but most of the time afterwards the OP would mention that their DM doesn't allow content from Dragon. It's sort of like how nobody brings up swarm familiars anymore.

Second. This prestige class had been talked about way too much back in the day. Similarly to how now we can't go a full week without a monk thread popping up. Even now, whenever there is a thread that allows dragon mag it is usually mentioned.

Talionis

2012-02-12, 06:45 AM

I recently purchased the Dragon Compendium Volume 1. It has some nice stuff, but it's no where near what I hoped for. If I use it in my campaigns I like to purchase a book to make it feel legal. But the problem with Heartfire Fanner is its not in a purchasable book.

But I don't own the magazine and I've not seen the detailed breakdown of what it does. I've seen some varied reports of how the class works online. I would love to have a prestige class that provided Bardic Music.

From what I have seen it may be a little overpowered as well. So the combonation of it non-published and very strong will make a lot of DM dubious.

But I'd love to see it reprinted in a book or online by wizards.

Dsurion

2012-02-12, 06:46 AM

Dragon content is often treated as second-class material because it's frequently questionably-balancedAs a DM, I really hate this attitude - not just for Dragon magazine, but for anything. My response to someone who uses that argument to disallow content is, "You know what else is of questionable balance? All of 3.5 D&D." :smallannoyed:

Snowbluff

2012-02-12, 09:06 AM

hobo386

2012-02-12, 09:07 AM

Personally, my group doesn't use dragon magazine because:

1)You can't buy it in a store.
2)You can't find it on the internet easily through a single google search.
3)The rules are so spread out that it's hard to reference them.

Edited because everything exists on the internet.

Helldog

2012-02-12, 09:10 AM

2)You can't find it on the internet.
You didn't look hard enough.

hobo386

2012-02-12, 09:11 AM

You didn't look hard enough.

Ok. Fixing my statement.

Helldog

2012-02-12, 09:15 AM

2)You can't find it on the internet easily through a single google search.
You didn't look in the right places.

Psyren

2012-02-12, 10:13 AM

As a DM, I really hate this attitude - not just for Dragon magazine, but for anything. My response to someone who uses that argument to disallow content is, "You know what else is of questionable balance? All of 3.5 D&D." :smallannoyed:

While this is true, at least with the official books you know that their content has been repeatedly and thoroughly dissected by many gaming forums - the official WotC boards, here, ENWorld, BG etc. Whatever balance pitfalls exist in e.g. the Completes have been hashed to death in various threads and laid bare for DMs to easily peruse.

For a variety of reasons, Dragon Mag content has not, save for a handful of well-known issues that have attained popularity for beefing up an underpowered class, e.g. that one with Mystic Ranger in it.

So while the double-standard may not be very fair, it is at least understandable.

Talionis

2012-02-12, 11:00 AM

Well to be fair none of 3.5 is balanced or fair, but that works out ok DMs have come up with ways to balance the game such as the tier system. The real problem is that everyone didn't collect every issue of it and there is too much of it to go back and get it. Because less people have it, it is hard to call it cannon.

If you play MTG then you know that some cards are too good, some so much so that they get banned. Some are real pieces and only there to make you appreciate the good cards. Classes and prestige classes are very similar, but it feels good knowing someone else thought about it and thought on the whole it was ok.

I could be ok with Dragon Magazine content if it were wrapped up in a few books or series that enough people can collect them and consensus come together whether any of the materials needs to be banned.

Cieyrin

2012-02-12, 11:34 AM

Considering the only material coming out for 3.X these days are Homebrew and PF, I don't think there's a reason to keep shunning Dragon and Dungeon material, as balance is pretty out of whack anyways. The relative unavailability is a problem but if you're willing to accept PDFs, that's not an impossible goal to overcome, either.

Rossebay

2012-02-12, 11:53 AM

Alright, alright. Dragon Magazine content is obscure, yeah. I was lucky enough to be able to pick up a copy of it (after Crystalkeep's Template list got me into Fire-Souled, I couldn't resist).

So, onto Bardic Music. Are there any ways to use that as a Move or Swift action?

Demon of Death

2012-02-12, 11:58 AM

So, onto Bardic Music. Are there any ways to use that as a Move or Swift action?

Tome of Battle's Song of the White Raven feat let's you do so as a Swift Action while you are in White Raven Stance, and it allows your Bard, Crusader, and Warblade levels to stack for your Bardic Music stuff.

Only other way I know of is to use the PF Bard which gets progressively better as it levels.

Flickerdart

2012-02-12, 12:03 PM

Song of the White Raven (ToB) lets you use it as a swift action, and there's a Bard spell somewhere that lets you start music as a move action during its duration.

Ellrin

2012-02-12, 12:04 PM

You didn't look in the right places.

Forget "the right places." When I want to find an issue of dragon (entirely for simple temporary checking purposes, of course ahemcoughcough), I can almost always find it with a mere "dragon [insert issue # here] PDF."

Cieyrin

2012-02-12, 12:09 PM

Song of the White Raven (ToB) lets you use it as a swift action, and there's a Bard spell somewhere that lets you start music as a move action during its duration.

Song of the White Raven lets you Inspire Courage as a swift action, not any bardic music. It is typically what people want to use, anyways, but I figure I should point that out.

I believe the spell you're talking about is Harmonize and Greater Harmonize, which are both from Races of Stone. You also may want the ability to have multiple songs going at the same time, which you can pick up via Warchanter and I think Virtuoso also has that capability. There's also a couple masterwork instruments from Song and Silence that let you do so, the pipe organ notably allowing you to get 3 going at the same time. Getting one from place to place is something else to figure out.

Chronos

2012-02-12, 03:06 PM

(after Crystalkeep's Template list got me into Fire-Souled, I couldn't resist).Do note that that list has a typo in it for Fire-Souled: The LA is actually higher.

And even if you can find a PDF of any issue of Dragon online, it's still harder to find than most things, since you can't find anything unless you already know what you're looking for. If I know I want to make a sneaky character, for instance, I can pick up a copy of Complete Adventurer and/or Complete Scoundrel, and just flip through and see what options they have available. You can't really do that with Dragon magazines, since they can contain material of any sort at all.

Coidzor

2012-02-12, 03:07 PM

Well to be fair none of 3.5 is balanced or fair, but that works out ok DMs have come up with ways to balance the game such as the tier system.

On the contrary, many of the later books were very well balanced, especially in comparison with Core.

If you play MTG then you know that some cards are too good, some so much so that they get banned. Some are real pieces and only there to make you appreciate the good cards. Classes and prestige classes are very similar, but it feels good knowing someone else thought about it and thought on the whole it was ok.

Indeed, it is most unfortunate that anyone ever gave credence to that philosophy, considering that there are entirely different economic dynamics going on with the marketing and then restriction of use of cards that they purposefully made gamebreaking than there are with the constructs of a bloody pen and paper roleplaying game.

I'm pretty sure that most of the people who worked on Dragon were not also MTG designers, which is more than can be said of people like Sean Reynolds, who tried to cover his ass for his negligence and thoughtlessness by claiming a rather tired and bad lie about deliberately setting out to make D&D 3rd Edition play like MTG with deliberate traps.

I could be ok with Dragon Magazine content if it were wrapped up in a few books or series that enough people can collect them and consensus come together whether any of the materials needs to be banned.

...What internet have you been on? We don't even have a consensus on what official content should be banned, considering that Monkday and ToBsday are things. Still things, actually.

Manateee

2012-02-12, 03:44 PM

On the contrary, many of the later books were very well balanced, especially in comparison with Core.

*cough* tome of magic complete champion races of the dragon *cough*

In a system whose first party materials include Planar Shepherds and Survivors, I see no reason to be less skeptical of 1st party materials than any homebrew or 3rd party supplements. And since the rules encourage players to augment the rules, it seems silly to automatically rule out augmentations made by people outside the WotC payroll.

But as far as Dragon magazine contents, there are thousands of pages printed in a magazine I've never even seen in person, not made to last and only sold for a limited time apiece. Even really exciting things like Wild Shape Monks or expanded Soulmeld lists can take a long time to even hear about.

Coidzor

2012-02-12, 04:00 PM

What are you talking about? Tome of Magic was really short, yeah, but Binders were very well balanced.

Talionis

2012-02-12, 05:43 PM

...What internet have you been on? We don't even have a consensus on what official content should be banned, considering that Monkday and ToBsday are things. Still things, actually.

I know there are no absolutes, but the more people talk about ToB being banned in their campaigns, the more we know that some people think it is overpowered or just generally not for them.

Pun Pun is banned in most campaigns.

Many campaigns ban certain Tiers.

Is there consensus that means anything no. But if you see enough people talk about and around something you know it is something to worry about.

Its also common to have threads where people ask for DM advice in what to allow.

The rule always should be DM's should do what they think is best for the fun of their campaigns and players. But when the content is more accessible then more people have experiences to help DM's make decisions prior to making his players muck through it.

Coidzor

2012-02-12, 05:54 PM

Is there consensus that means anything no. But if you see enough people talk about and around something you know it is something to worry about.

By your own use of ToB as an example you've invalidated this line of thinking. As one can't go by the brouhaha kicked up by the naysayers, especially as it generally amounts to either A. my players don't understand how to play or B. rabid "animu" hatred, and instead have to look at it and think for one's self.

Wings of Peace

2012-02-12, 07:05 PM

Not only that, but it makes the bard obsolete. Just about anyone can qualify if they own a lute.

I wouldn't say that. Bardic Knack will always be a bard only thing and probably the primary reason I ever play a bard.

Talionis

2012-02-12, 08:10 PM

By your own use of ToB as an example you've invalidated this line of thinking. As one can't go by the brouhaha kicked up by the naysayers, especially as it generally amounts to either A. my players don't understand how to play or B. rabid "animu" hatred, and instead have to look at it and think for one's self.

I can be quite passionate trying to fight ToB naysayers so that people won't avoid it. I think ToB gives melee nice things, not unfair things. And D&D is a world you make it, if you let it be Anime than it will be. If you let it be Star Wars it will be that, but everyone lives in a little bit different world.

Information is information. I hope DM's use it. When you don't have easy access to information you get misinformation.

Psyren

2012-02-12, 09:08 PM

I could be ok with Dragon Magazine content if it were wrapped up in a few books or series that enough people can collect them and consensus come together whether any of the materials needs to be banned.

Even if it were in books, you're not going to get consensus like that. Hell, there are DMs here that see no problem with Dark Chaos Shuffle, and I know that personally I'd never consider letting that slide.

What you can get are simple breakdowns that help you make a more informed decision... but there are going to be less of those available for Dragon content, it's a fact of life it seems.

Amphetryon

2012-02-12, 11:10 PM

Heartfire Fanner is very good for a Fochlucan Lyrist, and oft-mentioned in the thread delineating tools for that PrC.

Snowbluff

2012-02-13, 12:37 AM

I wouldn't say that. Bardic Knack will always be a bard only thing and probably the primary reason I ever play a bard.

No Bardic Music? T^T

Coidzor

2012-02-13, 12:56 AM

Heartfire Fanner is very good for a Fochlucan Lyrist, and oft-mentioned in the thread delineating tools for that PrC.

Eh? How so? Fochlucan Lyrist needs Bardic Knowledge, not Bardic Music.

Amphetryon

2012-02-13, 08:02 AM

Eh? How so? Fochlucan Lyrist needs Bardic Knowledge, not Bardic Music.
Like this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds?post_id=33843476 6#338434766). Also, note that a Rilkan Rogue ACF (MOI) gets Bardic Knowledge with no Bard levels.

Coidzor

2012-02-13, 02:44 PM

Like this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds?post_id=33843476 6#338434766). Also, note that a Rilkan Rogue ACF (MOI) gets Bardic Knowledge with no Bard levels.

Ahh. Thank you. I can't believe I missed that when I was in a Fochlucan Lyrist kick. x.x Looks pretty interesting.

Rossebay

2012-02-13, 03:48 PM

Ahh. Thank you. I can't believe I missed that when I was in a Fochlucan Lyrist kick. x.x Looks pretty interesting.

What's so special about not taking Bard levels? :smallconfused:

Helldog

2012-02-13, 03:59 PM

What's so special about not taking Bard levels? :smallconfused:
Bard doesn't progress casting of other classes.

Rossebay

2012-02-13, 04:06 PM

Bard doesn't progress casting of other classes.

Well... Neither does Rogue...

Helldog

2012-02-13, 04:17 PM

Well... Neither does Rogue...
What's your point?

Rossebay

2012-02-13, 04:22 PM

What's your point?

The included build above uses Rilkan Rogue for Bardic Knowledge in exchange for Bard, when one could just grab a level of Bard instead. I mean, sure, 2 more skill points, and some Sneak Attack is nice and all, but if you're going into Heartfire Fanner anyway, an additional level of Bard for Bardic Music/Day never hurts.

Chronos

2012-02-13, 04:25 PM

Depending on what your DM is willing to allow, rogue 2 might be the easiest way to get evasion, and hence needed for FL anyway, so you might as well get as much as you can out of those two levels.

Amphetryon

2012-02-13, 04:28 PM

What's so special about not taking Bard levels? :smallconfused:

By using Rogue instead, you're doubling up on its utility - letting it get both Evasion and Bardic Knowledge. That means you've got more class levels available for Sublime Chord or Fochlucan Lyrist (which progresses SC's accelerated casting), and get higher caster levels at a better rate.

Helldog

2012-02-13, 04:28 PM

The included build above uses Rilkan Rogue for Bardic Knowledge in exchange for Bard, when one could just grab a level of Bard instead. I mean, sure, 2 more skill points, and some Sneak Attack is nice and all, but if you're going into Heartfire Fanner anyway, an additional level of Bard for Bardic Music/Day never hurts.
Sorry, I thought you meant why take Heartfire Fanner instead Bard.

Cog

2012-02-13, 04:34 PM

...if you're going into Heartfire Fanner anyway, an additional level of Bard for Bardic Music/Day never hurts.
Actually, it does hurt. Heartfire Fanner only gives a boost to effective bard level if you don't have any bard levels going in; otherwise it merely stacks.

Rossebay

2012-02-13, 05:49 PM

By using Rogue instead, you're doubling up on its utility - letting it get both Evasion and Bardic Knowledge. That means you've got more class levels available for Sublime Chord or Fochlucan Lyrist (which progresses SC's accelerated casting), and get higher caster levels at a better rate.

Ahhh. Alright. That makes sense.

Thanks.

Coidzor

2012-02-13, 05:51 PM

Actually, it does hurt. Heartfire Fanner only gives a boost to effective bard level if you don't have any bard levels going in; otherwise it merely stacks.

And you can choose between a feat, Chaos Music, or an item, Vest of Legends(IIRC), that you'll want anyway in order to compensate for the level gap in effective bardishness.