Is this character any good?

[qwertyu63]

Well, as the title implies, I made a character (8th level) out of boredom, and want to know if this character is any good.

(EDIT: Changes have been made since I started this thread. The original is in this spoiler)

Name: Tilacan
Alignment: NG
Class: Sorcerer 4/Wizard 4
Race: Human
Ability Scores (Modified): Str:9(9) Dex:12(12) Con:10(10) Int:17(19) Wis:14(14) Cha:17(19)
HP: 25
AC: 13 (10+1(Dex)+2(Bracers of Armor))
Saves: Fort: +4, Ref:+3, Will: +10
Skills: Bluff 6, Concentration 11, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Spellcraft 11, Spot 4, Use Magical Device 6
Feats: Eschew Materials, Toughness, Spell Mastery*2 (Acid Splash, Cause Fear, Detect Magic, Acid Arrow, Summon Monster I, Burning Hands), Scribe Scroll (From Wizard 1), Alertness (From familiar)
Equipment: Bracers of Armor +2, Cloak of Charisma +2, Headband of Intellect +2, Pearl of Power (1st Level), Ring of Sustenance, Stone of Alarm, Wand of Magic Missile (3rd level caster), Handy Haversack, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds*3, Scroll (Fly)*2, Scroll (Minor Creation), Scroll (Mnemonic Enhancer), Everburning Torch, other miscellaneous possessions (Rope, Outfit, Spellbook, etc.)
Spells Known (Sorcerer): Flare, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance. Disguise Self, Mage Armor, Magic Missile. Scorching Ray.
Spells Per Day (Sorcerer): 6/7/4
Spells Per Day (Wizard): 4/4/3


The new version is here.

Name: Tilacan
Alignment: NG
Class: Sorcerer 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 3
Race: Human
Ability Scores (Modified): Str:9(9) Dex:12(12) Con:14(14) Int:17(19) Wis:10(10) Cha:17(19)
HP: 38
AC: 13 (10+1(Dex)+2(Bracers of Armor))
Saves: Fort: +4, Ref:+3, Will: +10
Skills: Bluff 11, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 5, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Spellcraft 11, Spot 4
Feats: Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Toughness, Empower Spell, Skill Focus (Concentration), Scribe Scroll (From Wizard 1), Alertness (From familiar)
Equipment: Bracers of Armor +2, Cloak of Charisma +2, Headband of Intellect +2, Pearl of Power (1st Level), Ring of Sustenance, Stone of Alarm, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Handy Haversack, Scroll (Fly)*2, Scroll (Minor Creation), Scroll (Mnemonic Enhancer), Everburning Torch, other miscellaneous possessions (Rope, Outfit, Spellbook, etc.) 3767.9 gp left if I did my math right.
Spells Known (Sorcerer): Flare, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance. Disguise Self, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Summon Monster I. Scorching Ray.
Spells Per Day (Sorcerer): 6/7/4
Spells Per Day (Wizard): 4/4/4/3

Well, there you have have it. Now, can those of you with more ranks in Knowledge (Useful Characters) please tell me how bad this thing is?

[Manateee]

If an equal level Adept can outcast you, that's probably a bad sign.

[sonofzeal]

Yeah, that's.... um, not so good. Sorcerer1/Wizard4/Ultimate.Magus3 is just as good at Sorcerer spells, better at Wizard spells, and has other class features that let them synergize the twp.

[qwertyu63]

If an equal level Adept can outcast you, that's probably a bad sign.

Are you talking about the NPC class (which at level 8 is 3/3/2/0), or is there some other Adept I don't know about?


Ultimate.Magus3

After a little reading, that class is the basic idea I was thinking of here. First I've heard of it though. (I was working with just the SRD, so a lot of the high-end stuff from other places is unknown to me.)

[RaggedAngel]

Are you talking about the NPC class (which at level 8 is 3/3/2/0), or is there some other Adept I don't know about?

He was exaggerating, but that forth level slot is still something big.

A better thing to say is an equal level Bard can outcast you, which while not terrible is still not something a Wizard/Sorcerer should ever want, especially when a theurge class exists that was built for the two of them.

[Novawurmson]

Compared with an Expert? It's great.

Compared with Sorcerer 8 or Wizard 8? Terrible.

[qwertyu63]

He was exaggerating, but that forth level slot is still something big.

A better thing to say is an equal level Bard can outcast you, which while not terrible is still not something a Wizard/Sorcerer should ever want, especially when a theurge class exists that was built for the two of them.

OK then. That was a serious question though, given that I know very little about what is out there. As I said (or edited in to) in the post just above yours, I didn't know about that class (I assume you are talking about Ultimate Magus as well) at the time. I'll have to remake the thing.

[sonofzeal]

LEt's go through the breakdown....

- Your Sorc/Wizard casting is going to seriously lag. Not only do you lack spell slots and Spells Known, but you're only casting at CL 4. This means that your damaging spells do half as much damage, and your buff spells last half as long, and you're casting lower-level spells meaning they're easier to save against.

- Toughness is a terrible feat. You should be qualifying for "Improved Toughness" by now, which doesn't require Toughness and gives more than twice as many hp. Save your feat slot for that.

- Eschew Materials is a terrible feat. Spell Component pouches are dirt cheap, and you can buy like 20 without difficulty.

- Spell Mastery is usually pretty mediocre. The number of times it comes up is not high, and the spells you've chosen with it aren't going to save your bacon when it does. The best thing to use Spell Mastery on are panic buttons, or things that might help you get your spellbook back.

- Your ability scores are a little messed up. You've gotten two bonus points from levelling up, so those should have gone into rounding some of those odds into evens for an extra boost. You should never be sitting around with odd numbers in your two most important scores. Also, your next most important should almost certainly be Con, given your criminally low d4 HD. Con should be a higher priority than Dex, and a much higher priority than Wis. I have no idea why you put Wis so highly, you don't seem to get anything at al from it.

[Libertad]

You should redesign the character to have single levels of either Wizard or Sorcerer. It's very important that you gain access to to higher-level spell slots.

Here's a very good handbook for Wizards that you may find of interest:


http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2716.0

Assuming that you're using normal Wealth by Level Guidelines, you'll have around 27,000 gp to spend on equipment.

Here's another handbook for equipment:


http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1002.0

[deuxhero]

Well, as the title implies, I made a character (8th level) out of boredom, and want to know if this character is any good.
[...]
Alignment: NG
[...]


Neutral Good does indeed qualify as "any good" for requirements.

*flees*

[Novawurmson]

Neutral Good does indeed qualify as "any good" for requirements.

*flees*

+1 Cookie(s)

[Manateee]

Are you talking about the NPC class (which at level 8 is 3/3/2/0), or is there some other Adept I don't know about?
No, I mean the NPC class.

With splats, an Adept with the Fiery Burst feat is going to be giving your sorcerer side a run for its money in blasting capacity and the Spell Domain is going to mean it can cast all the same spells as your Wizard side, but with a higher caster level. And since it can prioritize Wisdom, it'll probably have higher save DCs to boot.

Looking at your build, I get the feeling that a Wizard with blasting reserve feats is going to do what you want (the Sorcerer side looks like it's mostly for blasting longevity). Otherwise, zeal's Ultimate Magus makes more sense for this kind of character.

[qwertyu63]

Notice, before we go on, that the first post has changed, taking in some of your suggestions.


- Toughness is a terrible feat. You should be qualifying for "Improved Toughness" by now, which doesn't require Toughness and gives more than twice as many hp. Save your feat slot for that.
I will be adding that now. BTW, yes, it does require Toughness.
Improved Toughness [General]

You are tougher than normal.
Prerequisite

Toughness, Base attack bonus +3

Benefit

You gain +4 hit points


Neutral Good does indeed qualify as "any good" for requirements.

*flees*
Well played.


Assuming that you're using normal Wealth by Level Guidelines, you'll have around 27,000 gp to spend on equipment.

That was the number I was working with, I just failed to note down the leftover gp. (EDIT: Which, if my math is right, come out to 1367.9 gp left over)

[Urpriest]

Equal level multiclassing is almost never a good idea. If you want to merge the abilities of two classes, you need a Prestige Class to do it, otherwise you won't have level-appropriate abilities of either. In general you multiclass when you want specific abilities from specific levels of the classes, not just when you want the general feel of both classes.

Edit:


I will be adding that now. BTW, yes, it does require Toughness.
Improved Toughness [General]

You are tougher than normal.
Prerequisite

Toughness, Base attack bonus +3

Benefit

You gain +4 hit points

That's not a real feat.

[sonofzeal]

I will be adding that now. BTW, yes, it does require Toughness.
Improved Toughness [General]

You are tougher than normal.
Prerequisite

Toughness, Base attack bonus +3

Benefit

You gain +4 hit points
I don't know where you got that from, but I don't see it in any book I own, and it's not listed in any of the feat archives I know either. Open Complete Warrior. Or Libris Mortis. Or Monster Manual III.

[qwertyu63]

AHEM (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Improved_Toughness).

I don't know where you got that from, but I don't see it in any book I own, and it's not listed in any of the feat archives I know either.

I found a feat by that name here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Toughness_%283.5e_Feat%29), but the one you link to is better, so away I go to do some math.

EDIT: Also note, the internet is the only source I have for these things. I don't have piles of sourcebooks sitting around (as much as I wish I did)

[sonofzeal]

I found a feat by that name here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Toughness_%283.5e_Feat%29)
D&Dwiki is infamously terrible. Most of it's homebrew and unofficial content, and 90% is terribly balanced and/or terribly written. Most people on these boards avoid it like the plague.

Check Complete Warrior. The one there is much better in every way.

[qwertyu63]

D&Dwiki is infamously terrible. Most of it's homebrew and unofficial content, and 90% is terribly balanced and/or terribly written. Most people on these boards avoid it like the plague.

Check Complete Warrior. The one there is much better in every way.

Good to know. Feats changed. I'll fill in the blank slot in the morning.

[Calanon]

What your looking for is your standard Spontaneous/Preperation Theurge :smallwink:

*looks through bag of holding* I should get a handy haversack... AH! here it is!

First your gonna wanna be a Specialist Wizard if your gonna go Ultimate Magus Personally? I enjoy Necromancy so for me I'll use a Necromancer ;)

Necromancer (Baring Illusion/Evocation) but this doesn't really matter... SINCE! were gonna be taking Precocious apprentice and Spell Focus (Specialized School)! /yay/

So Necromancer/1: Precocious Apprentice (Select whatever spell seems flavorful) for your 2nd level? Take Sorcerer For now it might seem silly but eh you'll see soon enough.

So far we have Necromancer 1/ Sorcerer 1. Now for our next level we Master Specialist for all the nice tasty sauce that It provides. unfortunately we won't be in this class for long since were only taking 3 levels... So sorry ;(

Your character should be looking like:

Human: Spell Focus (???)
1st: Precocious Apprentice (???)
3rd: any Metamagic feat
3rd: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
5th: Greater Spell Focus (???)
6th: Versatile Spellcaster

The reason we add in Versatile spellcaster is because finally were gonna be using those Sorcerer Spells :smalltongue: Now it is imperative that you select spells from your barred schools for this magic trick to work ok? Alright :smallwink:

Continuing onward we gain our 9th bonus feat as an Ultimate Magus we should be looking like Necromancer 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Master Specialist/3 Ultimate Magus/4 unfortunately so far we only cast spells as a level 8 Wizard and a level 5 Sorcerer :smallfrown: But we will preserver!

For our 9th feat? Personally i didn't really care and just went with Maximize spell and here is where I will stop since the dear OP only needed up to level 8 and i went above and beyond to go to 9th

This build eventually leads up to you becoming an Archmage with 9th lvl Casting for Wizard and 6th lvl for sorcerer which becomes your metamagic fuel which is pretty badass if i say so myself

EDIT EARLY ENTRY FOR BEGINNERS IS BAD

Or the standard

Specialist Wizard/3 Sorcerer/1 Master Specialist/1 Ultimate Magus/3 will work

not much different just a little more lame imo :smallannoyed:

[sonofzeal]

Good to know. Feats changed. I'll fill in the blank slot in the morning.
Keep checking google. I found three sites that had the official one within a minute. It gives +1 hp per level, or +8 hp at this level.

[Urpriest]

@Calanon: can we please not toss early-entry tricks at the noob right out of the gate? Especially with Ultimate Magus, which is really not that bad without them anyway?

[Calanon]

@Calanon: can we please not toss early-entry tricks at the noob right out of the gate? Especially with Ultimate Magus, which is really not that bad without them anyway?

Alright... :smallfrown:

on the subject of Early entry how does one early entry Ur-Priest?

I'll fix my post to make it more beginner friendly :smalltongue:

[Heatwizard]

You could take Improved Toughness and get an extra hit point per level, OR you could take Craft Wondrous Item, make yourself an Amulet of Health, and have the exact same thing except now you can deck yourself and the rest of the party out in magic items. And the amulet boosts your Fort save and your Concentration checks, too.

[Urpriest]

Alright... :smallfrown:

on the subject of Early entry how does one early entry Ur-Priest?

I'll fix my post to make it more beginner friendly :smalltongue:

If you're actually curious, it's damn hard just getting in on time. The prereqs are skill-based, so to get in early you'd need either the colossal waste of feats that is Primary Contact or the insanity that is Dusk Giant cheese.

[Chronos]

Equal level multiclassing is almost never a good idea. If you want to merge the abilities of two classes, you need a Prestige Class to do it, otherwise you won't have level-appropriate abilities of either.That depends on what you're getting from the levels. BAB, skill points, and assorted bonuses to skills and other numbers stack just fine, so a warrior or skillmonkey can end up very dippy. But yeah, for spellcasting, it just doesn't work.

Meanwhile, I'm a bit puzzled by the "why" of this character. I can understand someone naively multiclassing, say, wizard and cleric, because they want more variety. There are things a wizard can do but a cleric can't, and vice-versa. But what a wizard does and what a sorcerer does are basically the same thing. If you want a wizard that's sort of like a sorcerer, play a straight wizard: They're all sort of like a sorcerer. Or likewise, a straight sorcerer is sort of like a wizard.

[Calanon]

If you're actually curious, it's damn hard just getting in on time. The prereqs are skill-based, so to get in early you'd need either the colossal waste of feats that is Primary Contact or the insanity that is Dusk Giant cheese.

I am legitimately Curious how to early entry an Ur-Priest. JUST so i can make an Ur-Priest Theurge, I've seen multiple builds for it but all of them are just lacking the kind of zesti-flavor that I'm trying to go for...

[qwertyu63]

Meanwhile, I'm a bit puzzled by the "why" of this character.

10/11/8/3 total spell slots. (Or to use the numbers from the worse version 10/11/7)
(EDIT: I realize adding these together is a bad measure of total power, I just thought it made my point well.)


You could take Improved Toughness and get an extra hit point per level, OR you could take Craft Wondrous Item, make yourself an Amulet of Health, and have the exact same thing except now you can deck yourself and the rest of the party out in magic items. And the amulet boosts your Fort save and your Concentration checks, too.

OR since I have an open feat slot still, I can take both. Which I will do.

[Psyren]

Just dropping in to say that Ultimate Magus is available for free (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) if you haven't checked it out yet.

And damn do I love the art.

[Manateee]

10/11/8/3 total spell slots. (Or to use the numbers from the worse version 10/11/7)
(EDIT: I realize adding these together is a bad measure of total power, I just thought it made my point well.)
Keep in mind that every new level of spells grants its own spell slots plus all the bonus spell slots that come with it. So a specialist level 8 Wizard will only have 2 fewer spells per day (cantrips aside), but will have a lot more power in its options.

That said, the Ultimate Magus is a much better approach, but your equipment is still pretty flawed. UM gets Use Magic Device as a class skill, so you could get a wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor to restore 7 or 15 times the HP of those potions (respectively) for 5/6 of the potions' price. And the wand of magic missile does minor enough damage to basically be inconsequential. Something like Ray of Enfeeblement would be much more helpful.

[hex0]

No one suggested practiced spellcaster (sorcerer) to keep the wizard casting higher?

For an ultimate magus, it is usually better to have classes with two different lists. Warmage (for edge) or Beguiler for better skills at first level for example also have different lists?

My favorite UM build is:

Trickster Spellthief 2/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 4/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 6/any prc for wizard 4. LOTs of spells and very high caster level with Master Spellthief

Bard 2/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 5/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 5 etc also works nicely.

[qwertyu63]

Just dropping in to say that Ultimate Magus is available for free (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) if you haven't checked it out yet.

And damn do I love the art.

Found that back when I looked up what the class was, but thanks for pointing that out. And I agree about the art.


That said, the Ultimate Magus is a much better approach, but your equipment is still pretty flawed. UM gets Use Magic Device as a class skill, so you could get a wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor to restore 7 or 15 times the HP of those potions (respectively) for 5/6 of the potions' price. And the wand of magic missile does minor enough damage to basically be inconsequential. Something like Ray of Enfeeblement would be much more helpful.

I still need to recalculate skills, in terms of class and cross-class skills. Bluff is way to high for this class mix. (That has now been done) I shall have to move some to Use Magic Device, for the reasons you just pointed out. Then I'll have to redo all of the shopping I did.


My favorite UM build is:

Trickster Spellthief 2/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 4/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 6/any prc for wizard 4. LOTs of spells and very high caster level with Master Spellthief

Bard 2/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 5/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 5 etc also works nicely.

Mind = Blown. The very idea of taking 5 or, in the case of your first list there, 7 class just blows my mind.

[hex0]

Mind = Blown. The very idea of taking 5 or, in the case of your first list there, 7 class just blows my mind.

5 classes isn't that bad. Some builds have 8 or 9 on here....

Anyway, the deal is Practiced Spellcaster keeps your best (ie Wizard) class ahead since UM based on caster level. Master spellthief stacks all your caster levels together and Nar Demonbinder and Sublime Chord stack with a previous casting class of your choice.