[3.P] What caster is good for a War Troll?

[Helldog]

The War Troll in question has 18 in Int, Wis and Cha, so any caster is fair play. He also has huge physical attributes. Obviously he's a warrior, but more a tactician than a simple brute.
He was a mercenary and after gathering enough gold, he spent it on learning magic. Now I'm thinking which spellcasting class would be good. The fact that he was a warrior isn't very important.
Other facts that might be useful: He's either LE or LN (I didn't decide yet). And he has the outsider type.
If you need any more info, just ask.

[sonofzeal]

How many HD does he have? If he can qualify for a fast-progression PrC, that might serve him better than a base class. Suel Archanamach is good for those gaining casting later on.

[Helldog]

He has 12 HD. But I'd rather take a base class.

[Hirax]

Feels like an ur-priest to me, but sorcerer if a base class.

[paddyfool]

What kind of spellcasting do you want? The "tactician" bit says battlefield control to me, whereas the "being a war troll" says self-buffing.

(If the latter, Psychic Warrior could be fun for Expansion alone).

[Helldog]

Feels like an ur-priest to me, but sorcerer if a base class.
And why is Sorcerer better for him than the others? I need some convincing argument, otherwise I won't be able to choose.


What kind of spellcasting do you want? The "tactician" bit says battlefield control to me, whereas the "being a war troll" says self-buffing.
Well, maybe BFC is a good idea, although I was gonna make him a generalist.


(If the latter, Psychic Warrior could be fun for Expansion alone).
Too gishy.

[Heliomance]

With 12 HD, you're not going to be able to do anything useful with casting except a little buffing and gishing it up. First level spells when other casters have 7th? Somewhat useless.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Use those new Rules from Paizo on creating monster characters.

[Urpriest]

NPC or PC? How many levels do we have to work with, and what's the final ECL/CR?

[paddyfool]

Well, maybe BFC is a good idea, although I was gonna make him a generalist.

I'm not sure that's possible... with 12 levels of specialisation in being a big melee monster already, you'll want something that synergises with it. Buffing yourself, debuffing your opponents, or manipulating the battlefield to your advantage would seem the obvious ways to do this (although utility casting as well is, of course, always useful, and gives you something to do outside combat rather than just be big, strong and intimidating). But debuffing would be tricky with the level of what you'd be trying to debuff, battlefield control likewise, so your best option might be buffing. However, I suppose buffing may be...


Too gishy.

And this also puts paid to my other idea of going with a ToB class and fluffing the abilities gained as magic (not too tricky, especially if you pick Swordsage or Crusader), allowing you to actually use your HD for something (initiator level).

Overall, I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can do what you're asking for within 3.5.

[Helldog]

With 12 HD, you're not going to be able to do anything useful with casting except a little buffing and gishing it up. First level spells when other casters have 7th? Somewhat useless.
It's not about being useful. It's about choosing a class.


NPC or PC? How many levels do we have to work with, and what's the final ECL/CR?
Not important. I'm not making a final build. I have a War Troll and I'm searching for a caster class for him to advance in.


Overall, I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can do what you're asking for within 3.5.
But what am I asking? Look at the title of this topic.
"What caster is good for a War Troll?"
You sure choosing a caster class for a troll isn't possible? Because I kinda think it is.

[Mystify]

You want a war troll caster who isn't a gish? Thats impossible. The LA and RHD alone makes you WAY too far behind to be competitive in raw magic. Using magic to boost yourself is feasible. pretty much anything else is so ridiculously outclassed its not even funny.

[Helldog]

You want a war troll caster who isn't a gish?
Err, no. I want a caster class for a war troll.

[Tvtyrant]

Other than Ur-Priest and a few other 10 levels/1 9th level spell classes, nothing you take is going to catch you up on casting. The reason people are telling you to be a gish is that a War Troll doesn't really do anything for a standard caster.

If there is some mitigating circumstance here like "everyone has a bunch of LA and HD" or something, that would be nice to know.

[Mystify]

Err, no. I want a caster class for a war troll.

What are you asking? Do you want a wizard that adventures with a war troll, or a war troll who is a wizard?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that Suel Arcanamach is probably your best choice, especially combined with Abjurant Champion.

Divine Crusader, and take the Wrath domain. Take Practiced Spellcaster and Extend Spell, probably even Quicken Spell if he has enough levels.

Arcane Swordsage, start with 4th level spells/maneuvers at the 1st level. He can swing his sword around and produce an Ice Storm, and have buffs like Ray Deflection and Protection from Energy. If he gets at least five levels, he can even learn Energy Immunity, for all-day acid immunity as a supernatural effect.

[Helldog]

The reason people are telling you to be a gish is that a War Troll doesn't really do anything for a standard caster.
Well, then they are looking at it from the wrong perspective, because I'm asking the opposite.


What are you asking?
War Troll wants to learn magic. What casting class would be good for him.


I'll agree that Suel Arcanamach is probably your best choice, especially combined with Abjurant Champion.

Divine Crusader, and take the Wrath domain. Take Practiced Spellcaster and Extend Spell, probably even Quicken Spell if he has enough levels.

Arcane Swordsage, start with 4th level spells/maneuvers at the 1st level. He can swing his sword around and produce an Ice Storm, and have buffs like Ray Deflection and Protection from Energy. If he gets at least five levels, he can even learn Energy Immunity, for all-day acid immunity as a supernatural effect.
Base class, please.

[Mystify]

Well, then they are looking at it from the wrong perspective, because I'm asking the opposite.


War Troll wants to learn magic. What casting class would be good for him.


Base class, please.

What do you want it to do then, if not boost its existing ablities? Any full caster will be equally horrible with that much LA.

[Helldog]

What do you want it to do then, if not boost its existing ablities?
I already said that BFC is a good idea.


Any full caster will be equally horrible with that much LA.
Doesn't matter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Deadly Hunter Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid), then.

[Helldog]

Deadly Hunter Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid), then.
If I'm gonna be LN. But that's not certain.

[sonofzeal]

He has 12 HD. But I'd rather take a base class.
...why? Suel Archanamach is pretty much exactly what you're looking for. Starting a base class this late in the game is pretty much saying you don't want to be effective. You're so far behind that your DCs are not useful for offensive magic, your durations are short, and you've only got low level effects that could be better-duplicated by UMD and a few wands. Suel gets a slightly boosted progression as of 2nd level, has good HD, good saves, decent BAB, decent skills, and some nice class features that'll help your War Troll ease into things. Archanamachs make good gishes but don't have to gish. Mostly, they're ideal for characters who want to gain some nice magic later in their career, but probably won't be casting a spell every single turn. And that sounds pretty much right up your alley.

If there's some reason for a base class that I'm missing that's okay, but I really can't see any.

[Helldog]

If there's some reason for a base class that I'm missing that's okay, but I really can't see any.
A base class I can take from the get-go. A PrC I can't, because I don't meet the requirements. and Suel isn't a full caster.

Yes, I want the class to be good optimization-wise, but you guys are thinking too much into it.

Which base full casting class would be good for a War Troll? That's all I'm asking. And please, give some points WHY you think it would be better than other classes.
And no psionics, I don't like them.

[Mystify]

A base class I can take from the get-go. A PrC I can't, because I don't meet the requirements. and Suel isn't a full caster.

Yes, I want the class to be good optimization-wise, but you guys are thinking too much into it.

Which base full casting class would be good for a War Troll? That's all I'm asking. And please, give some points WHY you think it would be better than other classes.
And not psionics, I don't like them.

Better for what? The best thing to do would be to function as a gish and buff your own combat, but for some reason you don't want to do that. Beyond that, I don't see anything intrinsic to a war troll to make it better with any base class.

[Suddo]

Ur-Priest is the easy choice. Because its excelerated casting so you can get some decent spells quick.

Other than that. Wizard into Abjurant Champion is fun. Give you some Gishy type feel.

I'd go looking for a spell to give me non-lethal damage immunity. And just go with that class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You haven't really stated what you want this guy to do, other than cast spells. He's clearly already superb at combat, so the logical conclusion would be that his spells make him even better at that. This is why you're getting so many prestige class suggestions, because a War Troll who goes Suel Arcanamach 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 has a caster level of 17 and 4th level spells after gaining six levels, whereas any base class would only have 3rd level spells at a caster level of 10 after Practiced Spellcaster. The suggestions you're being given are optimal choices for the logical conclusion as to what these spells will be used for. If he's not going to buff himself or otherwise play gish, then what is he going to do? Saying he's not going to be doing one of dozens of possibilities doesn't really narrow it down at all.

Use Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), it has enough of an educated-magic feel and you can use those 12 HD of Outsider to dump ranks into Knowledge skills to help his other class features. With access to any divine spell in the game, including Druid/Ranger/Paladin-exclusive spells, domain spells, Adept and Divine Bard spells, he can do anything you want him to, and he can learn enough spells to completely switch what it is he does from day to day.

[Finkmilkana]

A base class I can take from the get-go. A PrC I can't, because I don't meet the requirements.

Sure you do (depending on the PrC), thanks to your racial hitdices as a War Troll.

If you really want an answer which baseclass is usefull for you, the answer is just none (for what you want it to do).

[sonofzeal]

Sure you do (depending on the PrC), thanks to your racial hitdices as a War Troll.

If you really want an answer which baseclass is usefull for you, the answer is just none (for what you want it to do).
Well, Ardent might work. With Practiced Manifester, it'll let him grab some higher level powers more quickly. Heck, any Psi class would work, because PM gives the option of augmenting lower level powers to effectively cast higher ones. A WarTroll12/Shaper1 could already be throwing out 5pp Astral Constructs, for example. That might help jumpstart him back on the path to relevance.

But he says he doesn't want Psi......

[Helldog]

You haven't really stated what you want this guy to do, other than cast spells. He's clearly already superb at combat, so the logical conclusion would be that his spells make him even better at that. This is why you're getting so many prestige class suggestions, because a War Troll who goes Suel Arcanamach 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 has a caster level of 17 and 4th level spells after gaining six levels, whereas any base class would only have 3rd level spells at a caster level of 10 after Practiced Spellcaster. The suggestions you're being given are optimal choices for the logical conclusion as to what these spells will be used for. If he's not going to buff himself or otherwise play gish, then what is he going to do? Saying he's not going to be doing one of dozens of possibilities doesn't really narrow it down at all.
I said BFC is a good idea.


Sure you do (depending on the PrC), thanks to your racial hitdices as a War Troll.
No, I don't. If you didn't notice, I said that I have a war troll that was a mercenary. Which means that I'm not customizing him to meet PrC requirements.


If you really want an answer which baseclass is usefull for you, the answer is just none (for what you want it to do).
That's a useless answer. Thanks for your contribution.

So I have the Archivist and some good arguments for it. Anything better, maybe?

And DON'T compare him to other casters of equal level/CR, because if I would care about that, I wouldn't make a war troll caster. It's not about that. I would say so if it would. I'm just making a war troll that started learning magic, and I'm choosing which class would be good.
I said no gishing. I said BFC is a good idea. If you have some other idea, suggest it.
I'm trying to not be rude, because you're offering help for free and I'm very grateful for that. But it's hard when some of you just ignore what I'm saying.

[sonofzeal]

Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Exhalation is about the best you can get for BFC with a minimum level investment. Otherwise, Druid gets some of the best BC stuff, especially at low levels.

[Helldog]

Dragonfire Adept kinda isn't a spellcaster.
And don't worry about level investment. He will advance the caster class from 1st level and forward (maybe PrC). The class doesn't have to be super special awesome from 1st level, but it would be good if it would give something useful early and get better soon.

[Ossian]

A base class I can take from the get-go. A PrC I can't, because I don't meet the requirements. and Suel isn't a full caster.

Yes, I want the class to be good optimization-wise, but you guys are thinking too much into it.

Which base full casting class would be good for a War Troll? That's all I'm asking. And please, give some points WHY you think it would be better than other classes. And no psionics, I don't like them.

Well if the parameters are

1) CORE
2) FULL CASTER

That narrows it down to picking 1 from Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, and making a case for the choice. I am not sure I got how many levels you would allow though.

I am going to go Druid here (neutral evil). The animal companion would be a pretty cool minion (and if the druid has several troll HDs already, you could perhaps allow for something on the meaner side of wildlife, something BIG for example).

Druid works even better (for a troll) with the drudic avenger variant. Forget the animal companion 1 less headache) and you get:


Druid Variant: Druidic Avenger
The druidic avenger channels her inner fury to wreak vengeance upon those who injure the natural world. This comes at a price, however, since the avenger must give up some of her own sensitivity to nature.

Class Skills
Add Intimidate to the avenger's list of class skills. Eliminate Diplomacy from the avenger's list of class skills.

Class Features
The druidic avenger has all the standard druid class features, except as noted below.

Animal Companion
An avenger does not gain the service of an animal companion.

Fast Movement (Ex)
A druidic avenger's base land speed is faster than the norm for her race by 10 feet. This ability is identical to the barbarian ability of the same name.

Rage (Ex)
An avenger can enter a furious rage, identical to that of a barbarian. An avenger can use this ability once per day at 1st level, and one additional time per day for every five levels above 1st.

An avenger does not gain the greater rage, indomitable will, or mighty rage abilities.

Spontaneous Casting
An avenger cannot channel stored spell energy into summoning spells.

Tireless Rage (Ex)
At 17th level and higher, an avenger no longer becomes fatigued at the end of her rage.

Wild Empathy
A druidic avenger takes a -4 penalty on wild empathy checks.

I mean, raging troll, that s already a great reason. The druid also had better HD and BaB than, say, wizards or sorcerers, better skill points of all BFC, and a spells selection that can be attuned (in terms of flavour) to a troll (it is a magical creature, sure, but i can definitely see a link with the primal and brute aspect of nature). Moreover, its buffs, control, movement and healing spells could give the troll all sorts of battle edges (in guerrilla warfare, in ambushing, in hunting PCs down) as well as in straight combat. Say, a level 9 Druid + 12HD of war trol = "you are architechting a world of pain on the PCs candy-a**es" (Quote adapted by W. Ferrell)

[Helldog]

1) CORE
2) FULL CASTER
Where did you get that "CORE" part? :smallconfused: I said "base" classes, not "core".


I am going to go Druid here (neutral evil).
As I said, LN or LE.

[ajfonty]

Go wizard/sorcerer, and have fun using only magic missiles. That's the extent of what you're going to get.

[Helldog]

Go wizard/sorcerer, and have fun using only magic missiles. That's the extent of what you're going to get.
Very helpful.

[Ossian]

Where did you get that "CORE" part? :smallconfused: I said "base" classes, not "core".


As I said, LN or LE.

I assumed a troll had to be evil, and that is the only evil combination allowed for druids (unless you just don't like the idea of a druid), hence my choice of LE. If LN is allowed, as it is for druids too, then there is no issue. Apart from that, I am not getting a real feeling of what it is that you actually want. Anyways, it's your troll :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

NPC or PC is relevant. If it's a PC whatever caster class it chooses has to make it able to relevantly contribute among PCs of equal CL. If it's an NPC it needs abilities that make sense for its CR. If it's an NPC that never gets fought then its caster class is determined by story requirements, and you wouldn't have asked us for help in the first place.

The fact that the guy used to be a mercenary means that you should customize him. You only use the base MM entries for monsters that aren't important enough to stat fully.

[Medic!]

What about a Beguiler? You get trapfinding (if your party needs it) at 1st lvl, you can continue to wear Light Armor (better with feat investment), you get a pretty good spell list, a good number of skill points, and you get to make use of all that Int and Cha, with a better HD than most casters.

[Heliomance]

Which base full casting class would be good for a War Troll? That's all I'm asking.

And you've got the only valid answer. There aren't any. None. War Trolls do not make good casters, there are no casting classes that will be good on him. Because having 12 non-casting hit dice, he's so ludicrously far behind on caster levels that going into any standard progression class is pointless.

How about you tell us why you want to do this? What the character is for? If it's a PC, forget it. Seriously, it's not going to work. A gish might be viable, but trying to go full caster on a War Troll chassis is doomed to failure.

If it's an NPC, you have more options. If you're just trying to flesh out War Troll society and see no fluff reason why they wouldn't have spellcasters, just Rule 0 it. Give it some casting on its RHD. I think Druid fits best fluff-wise. Especially if you're not planning on the PCs ever fighting him, he doesn't need exact stats. Just say he's a war troll that can cast spells and have done.

If the players are going to fight him, then he'll need a lot of class levels for the magic to be meaningful. Casting classes won't be associated for war troll, so you can stack on a bunch levels without the CR increasing too much, but your best bet is to let CR go hang and give him as many casting levels as you think is appropriate (hint: probably more than you think).

If you're asking the question "what casting class is best for a war troll" from a flavour perspective, my answer is Druid. If you're asking it from a mechanical perspective, the only answer possible is "none", especially if you're disallowing fast progression PrCs.

If you're not asking either, and this post doesn't help, then you need to explain what you want better, because we've given all the help we can.

War Troll has nothing about it that makes one casting class less bad than any other, so in the absence of any other selection criteria, you might as well roll a die. You've given us no way to evaluate how good any class is with respect to any other.

[Helldog]

I assumed a troll had to be evil, and that is the only evil combination allowed for druids (unless you just don't like the idea of a druid), hence my choice of LE. If LN is allowed, as it is for druids too, then there is no issue. Apart from that, I am not getting a real feeling of what it is that you actually want. Anyways, it's your troll :smallsmile:
I'll strongly consider the Avenger Druid if I'll pick LN.


NPC or PC is relevant. If it's a PC whatever caster class it chooses has to make it able to relevantly contribute among PCs of equal CL. If it's an NPC it needs abilities that make sense for its CR. If it's an NPC that never gets fought then its caster class is determined by story requirements, and you wouldn't have asked us for help in the first place.
I said it's irrelevant. Which means that you don't have to worry about it.


The fact that the guy used to be a mercenary means that you should customize him. You only use the base MM entries for monsters that aren't important enough to stat fully.
Oh, I am customizing him, but not to be a caster. He was a mercenary. He decided to learn magic after a life of fighting, not during it.


And you've got the only valid answer. There aren't any. None.
:smallannoyed:


War Trolls do not make good casters, there are no casting classes that will be good on him. Because having 12 non-casting hit dice, he's so ludicrously far behind on caster levels that going into any standard progression class is pointless.
Well, good that it doesn't matter then.


How about you tell us why you want to do this? What the character is for?
If I tell you your answers will be biased by that information. I don't need that.

[Medic!]

After a bit of consideration, Favored Soul may not be so bad either. You get good saves, and some minor freebie feats thrown in for free that will augment your melee abilities.

+1 to the druidic avenger, or the druid variant from Unearthed Arcana that gets you (if I remember correctly, AFB atm) monk damage and AC (including wis to AC) and fast movement, plus favored enemy, swift tracker, and track per ranger, in return for giving up the druid's armor/shield/weapon proficiencies and wildshape.

[Urpriest]

I said it's irrelevant. Which means that you don't have to worry about it.


And I said it's relevant. I even gave an argument why. As a human being who intends to engage in discourse with other human beings, it is your responsibility to respond to arguments with counterarguments, not by restating your point.

From the information given, a good choice of caster would be a Healer who uses Extra Spell to get extra unicorn and rainbow themed spells onto its spell list, because it would make your War Troll more of a pretty pretty princess.

[Heliomance]

We do not have enough information to answer your question in a satisfactory manner. We have given you all the answers we can based on the minuscule amounts of information you have provided. If you want different answers, you need to give us more information. If you cannot or will not provide that, then we have done all we can, and good day to you.

[Big Fau]

I said BFC is a good idea.

Not when you've lost 12 caster levels. You can't compete with Spell Resistance at all, the save DCs of your spells are abysmal at this level (a 1st level spell from you has a save DC of 15, most enemies at your level have a save bonus of 15), and the abilities are easily ignored (Grease kinda lost most of it's luster a few levels ago, before everything started getting Teleport).


No, I don't. If you didn't notice, I said that I have a war troll that was a mercenary. Which means that I'm not customizing him to meet PrC requirements.

The idea you are working off of is impractical from an optimization standpoint unless you use a fast caster PrC.


And DON'T compare him to other casters of equal level/CR, because if I would care about that, I wouldn't make a war troll caster. It's not about that. I would say so if it would. I'm just making a war troll that started learning magic, and I'm choosing which class would be good.
I said no gishing. I said BFC is a good idea. If you have some other idea, suggest it.

See above. Spellcasting at the level you are discussing is either full casting or Gish, and a War Troll is best suited to being a Gish. It's the strategic choice because it plays up to his strengths, despite not being as effective as it could be.


And even Gishing is difficult with 12RHD. The durations of the spells he can cast are low, the caster levels are at their bare minimum, and you don't have many buffs that are relevant at level 12+.


I'm trying to not be rude, because you're offering help for free and I'm very grateful for that. But it's hard when some of you just ignore what I'm saying.

You want to be the pot or the kettle?

[Coidzor]

Well, what class uses all 3 mental stats for casting or a class feature?

Druid gets Wisdom for casting and Cha for diplomancing animals and magical beasts into being minions.

Spirit Shaman gets what, Wisdom and Cha for casting?

Archivist gets Wisdom and Int for casting.

Favored Soul, again, Wisdom and Cha, IIRC.

But on the other hand you're asking what the best class for low level piddly effects would be on a high level warrior chassis. That's not a question that yields good answers or useful information.

So, you need to reframe what you're saying or give sufficient information that you are asking a different question.

[Helldog]

Okay. When people start totally ignoring what is said to them, it's a sign that there's no point in continuing.

Thanks all, your suggestions WERE helpful, they'll give me some thoughts when deciding.

A Mod will lock the thread shortly.

[Zaranthan]

So you want a spellcaster who uses battlefield control and has 12 RHD. At that level, you'll never beat a saving throw or spell resistance. The only spell that meets these criteria at level 1 is Obscuring Mist. Clerics, Wizards, and Druids all have OM on their list, so compare the class features. Wizard offers a familiar, but prohibits wearing armor due to spell failure. Druids can wear non-metallic medium armor, and have a small animal companion. Clerics can wear heavy armor and have access to two domain powers, or can swap out those domains for Devotion feats.

Cleric is the clear choice.

[sonofzeal]

Dragonfire Adept kinda isn't a spellcaster.
Sure it is. Big blasts of magical fire, and... say, causing fog to rise out of the ground itself, or magically suppressing light, or creating powerful gusts of winds with a wave of his hands. He suffers ASF, triggers AoOs, and gets some really nasty BC. It's a spellcaster from just about every perspective except that you don't have to muck around with spell slots.


Okay. When people start totally ignoring what is said to them, it's a sign that there's no point in continuing.
You know, when half the community is telling you the same thing, maybe it's a clue to listen to them.

You presumably want the guy to be effective, or you wouldn't be asking for advice. If you didn't care how effective he was, you'd just slap a couple Wizard levels on and call it a day. And the overwhelming answer is "there aren't any particularly effective options at this level barring contrivances, and we'll need more information for those".

So when five different people tell you the same thing, maybe they have a pooint...

[ericgrau]

Cleric or similar so you can cast in armor without changing shape. Your spells may be ho-hum, but your money, caster stat and items aren't. Grab a staff for beefy spells. Grab a rod of lesser extend spell and use your low level spells for buffs. Later when you're even richer you might even grab a rod of lesser quicken to use even more buffs in combat.

If you prefer arcane you could likewise get a staff and/or still spell. Staffs have no arcane spell failure chance. Nor do wands. True strike and feather fall have no arcane spell failure.

For 1st level spells you're casting bless and only in the buffing round. If you get practiced spellcaster and a rod of lesser quicken then divine favor could be really nice. Or in the buffing round without the rod. 2nd level shield other and silence targeting yourself are nice. 3rd level is when the real buffs start with magic vestment and magic circle against evil. Practice spellcaster also helps all these buffs. In combat quickened prayer (again via a rod) is really nice too. 4th level brings air walk, freedom of movment and greater magic weapon.

The travel domain is great for the freedom of movement domain power right from the first level. It also gives you longstrider and fly. Destruction is ok for the +4 to hit 1/day. Magic domain is great if you want to use both divine and arcane staffs. The plant domain gives the barkskin buff. The sun domain is nice for fire shield. The war domain is a free weapon focus.

[Draz74]

If you consider Artificer a casting class, I recommend that. Just because its flavor dissonance with a Troll is kind of hilarious.

[mregecko]

This thread made my brain hurt. :-(

[DoughGuy]

If I tell you your answers will be biased by that information. I don't need that.

If telling us more information will bias us towards one class then that means you believe that the there is already one class that fits the troll. So if one class already works why are you asking for a different class? Just use that class that fits and be done with it.

[Randomguy]

Beguiler. Why? Magical ninja War Troll, that's why.

Fluffwise, if it's a war troll that wants to learn arcane magic, then wizard would probably be better, since sorcery can't technically be learned; you've either got it or you don't. Also, sorcery runs off of internal magic, occaisionally derived from a magical race like dragons, fey and demons. Trolls aren't exactly known for having powerful magic as a race, so this again points to wizard.

Then again, you said he has the outsider type, which normal trolls don't have. What plane is he from, and how did he get the type?

Wizard is also better in the sense of being a tactician, and preparing for the situation and so on.

An arcane faster is also better than a divine caster if he wants to learn magic, unless of course he's either particularly devoted to a deity or to nature, in which case cleric or druid, respectively, would be the way to go.

[Rubik]

I second arcane swordsage, along with Practiced Spellcaster (Swordsage).

It'd be the only way to really get level-equivalent abilities without a PrC.

[Coidzor]

I second arcane swordsage, along with Practiced Spellcaster (Swordsage).

It'd be the only way to really get level-equivalent abilities without a PrC.

Heh. True that.

[Ossian]

Beguiler. Why? Magical ninja War Troll, that's why.

Fluffwise, if it's a war troll that wants to learn arcane magic, then wizard would probably be better, since sorcery can't technically be learned; you've either got it or you don't. Also, sorcery runs off of internal magic, occaisionally derived from a magical race like dragons, fey and demons. Trolls aren't exactly known for having powerful magic as a race, so this again points to wizard.

Then again, you said he has the outsider type, which normal trolls don't have. What plane is he from, and how did he get the type?

Wizard is also better in the sense of being a tactician, and preparing for the situation and so on.

An arcane faster is also better than a divine caster if he wants to learn magic, unless of course he's either particularly devoted to a deity or to nature, in which case cleric or druid, respectively, would be the way to go.

Wouldn't a war-troll shugenja be hilarious? Seriously, full caster, learns stuff, it s brutal, and it's so...I dont know, DIFFERENT!


This is how I picture it:

http://pinktentacle.com/images/10/gojin_14.jpg

or even better:

http://www.sylvainbouchard.com/wpblog/wp-content/oni.jpg

:smalltongue: flying cloud is optional, as is the corroding sake pumpkin flask

[dspeyer]

Flavorwise, "learning magic" is what wizards do. All the other casters gain their power in other ways.

Mechanically, the question is what low-level spells will remain of any use. There are a few:

Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Message
Prestidigitation
Protection from Alignment
Obscuring Mist (maybe)
Comprehend Languages
True Strike
Silent Image
Ventriloquism
Feather Fall
Cure Minor Wounds
Faerie Fire
Speak with Animals

Most of these are available to wizards, sorcerers and bards. Bards provide good skill points, and bardic music (it isn't much, but unless you've got some other morale effect it stacks). Sor/wiz provides a familiar, which gets half your total hit points so might be worth something. Wizard probably wins on overall flexibility.

Another thing worth remembering is scrolls. With practiced spellcaster, you can use 5th level scrolls with no problem and 17th level scrolls almost half the time. Grab a handy haversack and a scroll library and you should have some nice options well within WBL. Sor/Wiz probably wins here too, except for cleric with magic domain.