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cosmicstring
2012-02-12, 11:13 AM
Hello, I'm quite aware of the numerous threads dealing with ways of making TWF a bit more of a viable combat mechanic. Unfortunately, at least in my perspective, a majority of these threads just seem to be reiterations of reducing TWF's feat tax, and also a little of solving its mobility issues. So what about its other problems like damage reduction and significant damage output? And also the space left by ITWF and GTWF, once they are condensed into one basic TWF feat?

Here's some of my ideas for that...

Two-Weapon Fighting
Well, the he most basic fix is to wrap all TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one, and probably also provide the ability to make an offhand attack during a standard attack, a charge, and an attack of opportunity. Like Greenish's fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210769).

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (new)

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [General]

Prerequisite
Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +6.

Benefit
You can add your full Str modifier to damage rolls with your off-hand attacks. Furthermore, whenever you make consecutive hits on a target when fighting with two weapons, you can ignore half the target's damage reduction or hardness (if any) for those consecutive attacks. This applies to each chain of hits you make. whenever you hit a target with both weapons, you ignore half your target's damage reduction or hardness (if any) for each weapon.

Normal
You only add half your Str modifier to damage rolls with your off-hand weapon. Damage reduction and hardness apply normally to each attack you make when fighting with two weapons.

Special
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

A fighter may select Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (new)
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [General]

Prerequisite
Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +11.

Benefit
You no longer suffer penalties for fighting with two weapons. You can also add your Dex modifier as a competence bonus to damage rolls made with both your weapons.

Normal
You suffer a penalty to attack rolls if you choose to make an attack with your off-hand weapon and you do not gain a bonus to weapon damage rolls when fighting with two weapons.

Special
An 11th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

A fighter may select Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

What do you think?

Edit: Improve Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics.

Seerow
2012-02-12, 11:18 AM
Furthermore, whenever you make consecutive hits on a target when fighting with two weapons, you can ignore half the target's damage reduction or hardness (if any) for those consecutive attacks. This applies to each chain of hits you make.


Can you clarify this? Are you saying that for each successive consecutive hit, the DR gets cut in half?

So against DR 20, if you hit 5 times in the round it applies as DR20, DR10, DR5, DR3, DR2, DR1? Or is it just as long as your last attack hit, your next attack only deals with half the DR?

Overall it seems to me like it'd just be easier to cut the DR in half all the time. Less fiddly, more straightforward.




Anyway, have you looked at my weapon styles fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199946)?

TWFing Change: Fighting with Two Weapons is now treated as a Martial Weapon Proficiency. If you have a proficiency with two weapon fighting, you may attack with both weapons with a -4 penalty (-2 if the offhand weapon is light), as a full attack action. As a part of a full attack you may make an additional offhand attack for every main hand attack from base attack bonus. If you lack the proficiency, you take an additional -4 penalty to all attacks.

In addition to classes with martial weapon proficiency, Rogues have this proficiency for free.


Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [Style] [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Proficiency with two-weapon fighting
Benefit: Any time you make a single attack (such as a standard action attack, an attack of opportunity, or a charge), you may attack with both of your weapons. Additionally, any bonus attacks you gain from sources other than base attack bonus on a full attack now also grant an offhand attack.


Two-Weapon Rend [Style] [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB+3
Benefit: You may add your full strength modifier to offhand damage. When you deal damage with both of your weapons to a target on the same turn, you automatically deal extra damage as if you hit with your offhand weapon, with damage bonuses from attribute doubled. You may deal damage with this feat once per target per round. Additionally, your penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced further. The penalty for your primary hand and offhand lessens by 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess (the penalty cannot be reduced below 0).

Two-Weapon Defense [Style] [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB+6
Benefit: You gain a +2 shield bonus to armor class while wielding a weapon in each hand. While fighting defensively, you may increase this bonus by 50% (round up). While taking a full defense action, you may double this bonus.

Additionally, if an attack made against you while fighting defensively or taking a full defense action misses, you may make a free attack with your offhand weapon against the opponent. This attack may not be used for any special maneuvers, but does not count as an attack of opportunity.

cosmicstring
2012-02-12, 11:27 AM
It's just halved for all consecutive hits including the first one in the chain... Ok, let me word that better. And yes, I considered just halving the DR for every hit instead. But it kind of feels weird without any additional condition (aside from wielding two weapons). Maybe you're right...

I've also seen your weapon styles. TWF as a proficiency looked like an interesting idea, but I was really aiming for simpler fixes.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-12, 12:09 PM
When using a 2-hander in combat you can spread out the damage from one big attack amongst lots of little foes via the Cleave feat.
Why not have a feat that did the inverse of that for TWF? Something that lets the player hit with both weapons, together, at one spot, effectively turning two small attacks into one big one.

Sorry if the wording on this is a little funky; it's still early.


Doublestrike [General]
When fighting with a weapon in each hand you can combine attacks for increased damage.
Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: You must declare you are using this feat before making your attack rolls. When you do, you make the attack roll for you main hand as normal and add the full damage roll of your offhand attack to the damage roll for you main hand. If you do not hit with your attack roll, the offhand attack is still consumed in the attempt.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.



Here’s an example of how this works. Suppose you are dual-wielding light weapons, with a BAB of +5, so you have +3/+3. Each weapon deals 1d8+2 damage. You declare that you are using Doublestrike. You roll for you main-hand attack as normal (+3 bonus to attack roll) and hit, and then roll damage as 2d8+4.

Another example. Your BAB is +8/+3, so your attacks are +6/+1, and +6 for your offhand. The damage for your mainhand is 1d8+3, and 1d6+2 for your offhand. You declare that you are using Doublestrike. You roll for you main-hand attack and hit, and then roll damage as 1d8+1d6+5. You can then make one addition attack (at +1) for 1d8+3 damage.

cosmicstring
2012-02-12, 12:35 PM
Here’s an example of how this works. Suppose you are dual-wielding light weapons, with a BAB of +5, so you have +3/+3. Each weapon deals 1d8+2 damage. You declare that you are using Doublestrike. You roll for you main-hand attack as normal (+3 bonus to attack roll) and hit, and then roll damage as 2d8+4.

Another example. Your BAB is +8/+3, so your attacks are +6/+1, and +6 for your offhand. The damage for your mainhand is 1d8+3, and 1d6+2 for your offhand. You declare that you are using Doublestrike. You roll for you main-hand attack and hit, and then roll damage as 1d8+1d6+5. You can then make one addition attack (at +1) for 1d8+3 damage.

Well, the thing is if one of your weapons can bypass your target's DR, it would be better damage-wise if you'd just split the DR half between your attacks. That is unless if you're able to choose which weapon you'd make the doublestrike attack with, and not just with your main hand weapon.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-12, 01:20 PM
Well, the thing is if one of your weapons can bypass your target's DR, it would be better damage-wise if you'd just split the DR half between your attacks. That is unless if you're able to choose which weapon you'd make the doublestrike attack with, and not just with your main hand weapon.

My vision with this was that you are still attacking with both weapons, just together, instead of hitting seperately. I guess in the end though it really is just another way to bypass DR. Mine might be a little easier to understand but that's just preference.

I was looking over your feat changes again, and if we're willing use homebrew, why don't we just change the whole TWF mechanic? I don't think you should need a feat to apply your full Strength bonus to offhand weapons. With the possible exception of professional armwrestlers, most people's limb are of nearly equal strength, even if they favor one over the other.
Would it break things to badly if we just said any weapon wielded 1-handed gets your regular STR bonus, and anything wielded in 2 hands gets double your STR? The 1.5 times bonus can stay reserved for special circumstances, like wielding a 1-hander in both hands.

I like the idea of advancing along a progression chain for TWF, I just think it needs to be more interesting and more powerful. Maybe this way we can open up some feats for more interesting effects.

cosmicstring
2012-02-12, 02:05 PM
Hmm... I could just roll up the DR reducing mechanic with Two Weapon Rend (i.e. applying the effect whenever you rend), scrap ITWF, just include the full Str to offhand in the normal TWF feat, change TWRend so that you apply the rend damage every time you hit with both weapons at the same BAB, modify the dealt rend damage, and change the BAB prereqs to +6. That would be better.

I was also considering a feat that makes you stagger or daze a creature whenever you rend to make TWRend a bit more interesting. And maybe a name change for my modified GTWF (TWMastery perhaps?).

Deepbluediver
2012-02-12, 04:39 PM
Ok, been scratching my head over this all afternoon and reading a few of the other fix-threads working on this for a couple of days now; how's this for a set of alterations to the mechanic and feat-chain:

Edits: The latest alterations are in PURPLE.

Rules Change
Any weapon wielded in one hand adds your full Strength modifier to damage rolls made with that weapon.
A two-handed weapon wielded in both hands grants you double your Str modifier to damage rolls.
A one-handed weapon wielded in two hands grants you 1.5 times your Str modifier to damage rolls; light weapons cannot be wielded in this manner.
When using a light weapon, you may always choose to apply your Dexterity modifier to attack rolls in place of your Str modifier.


Fighting with a weapon in each hand
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you gain a +1 Parry bonus to your AC, and an additional +1 for every 5 points extra of your BAB (So +2 at +6, +3 at +11, etc). In addition, for each level of quality which your weapon improved by you gain an additional +1 bonus.1
When fighting with this style, you can also get one extra attack per round with your offhand weapon. You suffer a -4 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -8 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalty for striking with that weapon is reduced by 2. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the penalty for both hands by 4.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
{table=head]Circumstance|Primary Hand|Off-hand
Normal Penalties|
-4|
-8

Off-hand weapon is light|
-4|
-6

Two-Weapon Fighting feat|
+0|
-4

Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat|
+0|
-2

Off-hand weapon is light and ITWF|
+0|
+0[/table]

Original/Alternate penalty chart

If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
{table=head]Circumstance|Primary Hand|Off-hand
Normal Penalties|
-4|
-8

Off-hand weapon is light|
-2|
-6

Two-Weapon Fighting feat|
-2|
-2

Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat|
+0|
+0[/table]


Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
In addition, whenever you make an attack with your main-hand weapon as a standard action, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -4 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -8 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
In order to make off-hand attacks, you must use a full-attack action.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

FAQ
Q: But DBD, the AC bonus makes SnB all but useless!
A: Yes, that's because the armor stats as written are pretty much carp; I recommend you use any of a number of homebrew armor fixes found on this website, particularly mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226980) or Seerow's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228380).

Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for attacks made with either hand lessens by 4. (See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.)
In addition, whenever you make an attack with your main-hand weapon as a standard action, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -4 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -8 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
In order to make off-hand attacks, you must use a full-attack action.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +3.
Benefit: The penalties for attacking with your offhand weapon are reduced by 2. In addition, you may use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier for all attack rolls made with one-handed weapons, and you may apply double your Dexterity modifier to attack rolls made with light weapons.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Two-Weapon Defense [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +5
Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC, plus an additional +1 for every 4 levels past 1st. (so +2 at 5th, +3 at 9th, etc)
When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2, plus an additional +1 for every 3 levels past 1st. (so +2 at 4th, +3 at 7th, etc)
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +7.
Benefit: When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you may make as many attacks with your offhand as you can make with your main hand weapon. Each attack beyond the first is made at a -5 penalty to it's attack rolls. (So assuming a light weapon, the first attack is made at +0, the second at -5, etc.)
You are an expert at finding gaps in your opponent’s armor and cracks in their defense through which you can slip your blades. You may choose during any round to give up your AC Parry bonus, and in exchange you may ignore an amount of Damage Resistance from any opponent equal to ˝ your level. While using this effect, you cannot fight defensively or take a total defense action.
Special: A fighter may select Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Two-Weapon Rend [General]
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +9
Benefit: If the character hits an opponent with a weapon in each hand in the same round, he or she may automatically rend the opponent. This deals additional damage equal to the base damage of both your main hand and offhand weapons. Base weapon damage includes an enhancement bonus on damage, if any. The character can only rend once per round, regardless of how many successful attacks he or she makes.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Rend as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Two-Weapon Mastery [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 21, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +11.
Benefit: Any one-handed weapon (including simple, martial, and exotic weapons) is treated at a light weapon for the purposes of determining penalties or bonuses to attack rolls.
You are particularly adept at defending yourself from many angles of attack at once; if you also have the Two-Weapon Defense feat, you are immune to being flanked when fighting with a weapon in each hand.
You are especially good at shredding through even the toughest of opponents; if you also have the Two-Weapon Rend feat, you make one rend attack for every pair of main hand-offhand attacks you hit with each round.
Your reflexes and combat prowess have been honed to extraordinary levels; if you also have the combat reflexes feat, whenever you make an attack of opportunity, you can also make an attack on that target with your offhand weapon.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Mastery as one of his fighter bonus feats.


1]Improving the advancement of weapons is something I am still working on; it will follow a similar progression to my improved armor, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12436774&postcount=1). Basically, a superior weapon grants +1, an
exceptional weapon +2, etc. If using these with the RAW, just assume a materswork weapon adds an additional +2 to your AC.*

cosmicstring
2012-02-12, 10:42 PM
I think it would be better if you rolled your TWF and ITWF feats into one. I mean, TWF should have always been the feat that provides you the ability to make an attack with your off-hand at any given time you make an attack with your mainhand.

Your GTWF damage reduction... reduction mechanic (lol) is similar to my ITWF mechanic. The reason I put it in an earlier feat is because I also wanted rangers, or any non-rogue dual wielder for that matter, to be viable against low-mid level monsters with DR.


When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you gain an additional attack with both your main hand and offhand weapons, up to maximum of 8 attacks per round (4 with each hand).
Am I misinterpreting this? Does this really give 8 free attacks by just attacking with both weapons?


In addition, any one-handed weapon (including simple, martial, and exotic weapons) is treated at a light weapon for the purposes of determining penalties to attack rolls.
Just another way of saying "you no longer suffer penalties for fighting with two weapons". I do like your TWF penalties chart though. How about if the penalties were reduced by 1 for each light weapon you wield? Like if you wield a long sword and a dagger, you get a -1 to attack instead of -2.

For two weapon rend, what if you changed the rend damage to 1d6 per attack that hit? Something like a mini version of Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip which works for both Dex based and Str based dual wielders?

Two weapon defense looks fine.


Anyway, just my thoughts.

lesser_minion
2012-02-13, 06:42 AM
You're trying to provide specific fixes to problems that aren't actually specific to two-weapon fighting.

Anyone who relies on making a lot of attacks is going to suffer when up against damage reduction -- helping out TWF characters and only TWF characters wastes effort that, if you're houseruling anyway, could be better spent elsewhere.

Likewise, every character who gives a damn about multiple attacks at all is going to see their mobility suffer. Again, this isn't where you should fix the problem.

As far as giving fighters new things to fill in the 'feat gaps' is concerned, I think most people would rather just have nice, general-purpose fighter feats, rather than extra feats that specifically stress one combat style.

This is particularly important when you remember that the main problem with D&D's martial artist characters is not that they aren't powerful enough -- it's that they aren't flexible enough, leading to a lot of gameplay situations where they're completely defanged and declawed.

As far as the basic combat manoeuvre is concerned, I'd recommend handing out bonuses. It shouldn't take a feat in order for a character to be slightly better off when dual-wielding (for melee weapons, at least).

cosmicstring
2012-02-13, 08:36 AM
You're trying to provide specific fixes to problems that aren't actually specific to two-weapon fighting.
Oh... Yes, yes you're right... I feel like shooting myself for that. DR and mobility issues w/ extra attacks are inherent problems in the system. I've always known that, but subconsciously tried to avert it, eh... It's back to the drawing I guess.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-13, 09:31 AM
I think it would be better if you rolled your TWF and ITWF feats into one. I mean, TWF should have always been the feat that provides you the ability to make an attack with your off-hand at any given time you make an attack with your mainhand.
As I said before, I like the idea of advancing your skill along a chain of feats. You're free to Combine TWF and ITWF into one feat, but then you gotta find something else to take ITWF's place.


Your GTWF damage reduction... reduction mechanic (lol) is similar to my ITWF mechanic. The reason I put it in an earlier feat is because I also wanted rangers, or any non-rogue dual wielder for that matter, to be viable against low-mid level monsters with DR.
At what level does DR go from merely annoying to actually crippling though? I stuck with the BAB requirements from the original feats when writing these, which aren't bad for warriors but definitely kind of suck for rogue and anyone else with a medium BAB advancement; I'm probably gonna reduce them to +4 and +8, respectively.



Am I misinterpreting this? Does this really give 8 free attacks by just attacking with both weapons?
Ok, simple answer: no. Originally I didn't have all the extra-feat buffs included here, and my intent was for it to give extra attacks if you didn't have the best BAB, essentially bringing rogues up to the same number of attack per round as a warrior. I went back and edited in the bonuses for also having other feats afterwards, and I should probably take this out now.
If you can think of any other feats that you think might work well with a buff via TWFM, let me know.


Just another way of saying "you no longer suffer penalties for fighting with two weapons". I do like your TWF penalties chart though. How about if the penalties were reduced by 1 for each light weapon you wield? Like if you wield a long sword and a dagger, you get a -1 to attack instead of -2.
I'm a little confused; are you suggesting there should be another category for wielding light weapons in BOTH hands, but without the TWF feat? And that this should make your end bonuses -1 for primary hand and -5 for offhand?
I don't have an issue with that, it just seems to be a very specific set of cirucumstances.


For two weapon rend, what if you changed the rend damage to 1d6 per attack that hit? Something like a mini version of Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip which works for both Dex based and Str based dual wielders?
That does make it more equal between the two kinds of builds, but I think it weakens it overall. How about if I just change it so that the feat deals mainhand weapon plus offhand weapon damage? Essentially its just an extra attacks worth of damage if you hit with both weapons; that way it can still scale with character advancement via gear improvement.


Two weapon defense looks fine.


Anyway, just my thoughts.
Thanks! I appreciate the feedback.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-13, 09:49 AM
You're trying to provide specific fixes to problems that aren't actually specific to two-weapon fighting.

Anyone who relies on making a lot of attacks is going to suffer when up against damage reduction -- helping out TWF characters and only TWF characters wastes effort that, if you're houseruling anyway, could be better spent elsewhere.
Who, exactly, besides TWF suffers just as much from making lots of attacks? Monks? Please let me know what you're thinking of and I'll do my best to work them into my homebrew as well.


Likewise, every character who gives a damn about multiple attacks at all is going to see their mobility suffer. Again, this isn't where you should fix the problem.
It would be easy enough, I think, to allow TWF characters to make a single offhand attack along with their main hand attack without requiring them to expend a full round attacking a single opponent. It sounds like something I could add into to my TWFMastery feat.

Edit: Done. Though I did take your comments about mobility and the power-gap to heart, and added it in to TWF, right at the beggining, instead of at the end.


As far as giving fighters new things to fill in the 'feat gaps' is concerned, I think most people would rather just have nice, general-purpose fighter feats, rather than extra feats that specifically stress one combat style.
That's entirely your personal preference; I think style-specific feats are a great way of differentiating one character from another. Also, making feats that apply equally well in every situation is difficult, but if you think you can help out TWF better that way, I invite you to try.


This is particularly important when you remember that the main problem with D&D's martial artist characters is not that they aren't powerful enough -- it's that they aren't flexible enough, leading to a lot of gameplay situations where they're completely defanged and declawed.
That's a much more complex fix though. If you don't think that the core-as-written fighter is flexible enough, I invite you to go read my fighter-fix (link is in the sig) and tell me what you think. This thread is about TWF, and I really can't think of a way to make that particular mechanic more versatile in combat situations, short of adding a whole 'nother set of TWF-specific feats that pretty much all say "When dual-wielding, you get ".


As far as the basic combat manoeuvre is concerned, I'd recommend handing out [I]bonuses. It shouldn't take a feat in order for a character to be slightly better off when dual-wielding (for melee weapons, at least).
My current goal is really just to make TWF viable alongside other combat styles. I'm trying to be careful not to go overboard and make TWF so powerful that it becomes the de-facto system for ANYONE playing melee.
If the feats still need MORE bonuses, I think it would be easy enough to combine ITWF and TWF like cosmicstring wants, and add a buff to ITWF. Maybe something like 1.5 times your STR for the mainhand weapon, or just allow you to add both STR and DEX when TWF.

lesser_minion
2012-02-13, 10:49 AM
Who, exactly, besides TWF suffers just as much from making lots of attacks? Monks? Please let me know what you're thinking of and I'll do my best to work them into my homebrew as well.

Monks, archers, natural weapon builds (e.g. totemist), and certain barbarian builds all come to mind as being more affected by DR than other characters. This has been basically resolved for archers, but everyone else still gets the shaft to some degree (and even with archers, it would have been nice for the DR issue to have been resolved with something other than a magic item tax).

One possible fix would be to just have DR work as a separate pool of hit points, which recharges each encounter.


It would be easy enough, I think, to allow TWF characters to make a single offhand attack along with their main hand attack without requiring them to expend a full round attacking a single opponent. It sounds like something I could add into to my TWFMastery feat.

Edit: Done. Though I did take your comments about mobility and the power-gap to heart, and added it in to TWF, right at the beggining, instead of at the end.


That's entirely your personal preference; I think style-specific feats are a great way of differentiating one character from another. Also, making feats that apply equally well in every situation is difficult, but if you think you can help out TWF better that way, I invite you to try.

I think the best way to help out TWF would be to make it less exclusive as a fighting style -- I have no problem with people being able to choose TWF as a way to boost their damage output, but they need to be able to do that and also pick up something else.


That's a much more complex fix though. If you don't think that the core-as-written fighter is flexible enough, I invite you to go read my fighter-fix (link is in the sig) and tell me what you think. This thread is about TWF, and I really can't think of a way to make that particular mechanic more versatile in combat situations, short of adding a whole 'nother set of TWF-specific feats that pretty much all say "When dual-wielding, you get [insert anti-caster ability here]".

Simply making all of the obvious options cheap enough in terms of feats that a fighter could pick up more than one trick would go a long way towards improving things.


My current goal is really just to make TWF viable alongside other combat styles. I'm trying to be careful not to go overboard and make TWF so powerful that it becomes the de-facto system for ANYONE playing melee.
If the feats still need MORE bonuses, I think it would be easy enough to combine ITWF and TWF like cosmicstring wants, and add a buff to ITWF. Maybe something like 1.5 times your STR for the mainhand weapon, or just allow you to add both STR and DEX when TWF.

It's just a consistency thing, mainly -- with no feats, SnB and THF both give you minor boosts. I see no reason why TWF shouldn't follow this pattern.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-13, 09:31 PM
Monks, archers, natural weapon builds (e.g. totemist), and certain barbarian builds all come to mind as being more affected by DR than other characters. This has been basically resolved for archers, but everyone else still gets the shaft to some degree (and even with archers, it would have been nice for the DR issue to have been resolved with something other than a magic item tax).
Monk's have a variety of issues; and I don't think I can fix every problem in half a dozen classes with a single weapon mechanic.
If you think you have a better version of the feats, them by all means write them up and we can compare notes.


One possible fix would be to just have DR work as a separate pool of hit points, which recharges each encounter.
I think some one has been reading Seerow's threads. :smallwink:


I think the best way to help out TWF would be to make it less exclusive as a fighting style -- I have no problem with people being able to choose TWF as a way to boost their damage output, but they need to be able to do that and also pick up something else.

Simply making all of the obvious options cheap enough in terms of feats that a fighter could pick up more than one trick would go a long way towards improving things.
I've got six feats here; three of which are pretty mandatory and 3 of which are optiona. Feel free to condense them down to half the total number if you want. Alternatively, you can do what I did with my fighter fix and just give your melee classes more bonus feats.


It's just a consistency thing, mainly -- with no feats, SnB and THF both give you minor boosts. I see no reason why TWF shouldn't follow this pattern.
A boost compared to what? What's the base level we're going off of here?
Or asked another way, how should TWF be different from SnB and THF? Give me a target to aim for and I'll see what I can do.

TWF was pretty bad, but people still liked to us it. I think I've improved it. If it needs to be improved even more, then give me some guidance about where to go from here.

lesser_minion
2012-02-14, 04:37 PM
I think some one has been reading Seerow's threads. :smallwink:

I've seen some of Seerow's suggestions, but I haven't seen him suggest that (only having DR apply on an X per round basis, which solves the problem but I'd be tempted to argue leaves too much bookkeeping).


A boost compared to what? What's the base level we're going off of here?
Or asked another way, how should TWF be different from SnB and THF? Give me a target to aim for and I'll see what I can do.

Take no feats and wield a two-handed weapon, and you add one and a half times your strength bonus to damage. Take no feats and go sword-and-board, and you get a couple of points of extra AC. Take no feats and wield two weapons, and you'll have trouble hitting a small garden shed while standing inside it.

My concern is that there's no reason for TWF to be a different story to the others. You don't suddenly become unable to hit a garden shed while standing in it just because you have a dagger in your other hand.


TWF was pretty bad, but people still liked to us it. I think I've improved it. If it needs to be improved even more, then give me some guidance about where to go from here.

Something that hasn't been brought up is the fact that you need to pay to enchant two weapons instead of merely one.

ForzaFiori
2012-02-14, 10:06 PM
I've seen some of Seerow's suggestions, but I haven't seen him suggest that (only having DR apply on an X per round basis, which solves the problem but I'd be tempted to argue leaves too much bookkeeping).

It may require a bit more bookkeeping, but I think that Seerow's suggestion would work better to keep the feel of DR more than it being a per day thing.



Take no feats and wield a two-handed weapon, and you add one and a half times your strength bonus to damage. Take no feats and go sword-and-board, and you get a couple of points of extra AC. Take no feats and wield two weapons, and you'll have trouble hitting a small garden shed while standing inside it.

My concern is that there's no reason for TWF to be a different story to the others. You don't suddenly become unable to hit a garden shed while standing in it just because you have a dagger in your other hand.

Well, since THF gives a damage boost, and SNB gives an AC boost, why not give TWF an attack boost, since it's harder for an opponent to keep track of (and successfully block) two weapons?

Deepbluediver
2012-02-14, 10:35 PM
I've seen some of Seerow's suggestions, but I haven't seen him suggest that (only having DR apply on an X per round basis, which solves the problem but I'd be tempted to argue leaves too much bookkeeping).
That's ok, I didn't really like it either :P
I just made up set of buffed armor with fewer restrictions for my melee classes.



Take no feats and wield a two-handed weapon, and you add one and a half times your strength bonus to damage. Take no feats and go sword-and-board, and you get a couple of points of extra AC. Take no feats and wield two weapons, and you'll have trouble hitting a small garden shed while standing inside it.

My concern is that there's no reason for TWF to be a different story to the others. You don't suddenly become unable to hit a garden shed while standing in it just because you have a dagger in your other hand.
Hmm, well, I think you might be underestimating the difficulty required to wield 2 weapons at once, without accidently impaling yourself or your nearby allies. I think it's one of those things where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Kind of like trying to read two seperate books simultaneously doesn't mean you can read twice as much, or even that you just read each book half as quickly.
As it stands, I've reduced the standard penalties when TWF by 2 each, but -8 is still pretty steep and even -4 isn't something to laugh at; I would consider reducing the penalty still further, but not all the way to -0.

Now, I've been doing a little research (thanks, wikipedia!) and despite it's appearance in modern fiction as a damage-dealing style, historically I believe dual wielding was more defensively oriented. Most two-weapon fighters used a sword-and-dagger combo, and using matching weapons larger than a shortsword was very rare.
A dagger or other light blade was easier to carry (or conceal) than a shield, and because it was lighter you wouldn't get tired so quickly while using it. In addition, a second blade made it easier to deal lethal damage with an offhand strike, and gave you more options to attack if your main weapon was pinned or disarmed.

What I'm getting to, with all of this, is that if we consider THF to be a purely offensive style, and SnB to be the defensive-tank method, maybe we can craft TWF as a hybrid style. Less AC bonus than when wielding a shield, but with the chance for extra damage.
Two-Weapon Defense gets there a little already, and as far as I know there's no feat named Two-Handed Defense. Of course by now there's so many splatbooks, there's probably an official feat for boosting your combat prowess with spoons, but whatever.
Let me know what you think and I'll give it some more thought.



Something that hasn't been brought up is the fact that you need to pay to enchant two weapons instead of merely one.
Personally, I've always disliked the "randomly assigned treasure, most of it in GP" method. I always liked it when the DM would give us a little gold, but then also gear and magic items tailored to the group. For example, rather then a sack of rubies in a chest or a set of mithral scale-mail no one wants, the assassin that attacked us would be caring a matched set of +3 Keen daggers, which promptly went to the rogue/ranger. After putting the smackdown on the BBEG, we'd find his secret stash of wands (for the wizard and cleric), scrolls, and potions, to be divided up amongst the party as needed.
If you don't want to put in the extra work/attention to detail that method entails, then do this: since 2-handed weapons are larger, they require more materials and more work to enchant, increasing the cost by 50% over the listed price. That will at least lessen the gap, somewhat.

Seerow
2012-02-14, 11:38 PM
I've seen some of Seerow's suggestions, but I haven't seen him suggest that (only having DR apply on an X per round basis, which solves the problem but I'd be tempted to argue leaves too much bookkeeping).

It's in one of my armor fix threads. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228380). Basically instead of armor as DR, I did armor as temporary HP that refreshes every round.


Though I'm contemplating making that temporary HP that refreshes every turn, so each player has to deal with it independently. That makes it still function as a "You must be this tall to ride" bar, but applies equally regardless of the number of attacks you make. I probably won't do it, but it is something under consideration.



What I'm getting to, with all of this, is that if we consider THF to be a purely offensive style, and SnB to be the defensive-tank method, maybe we can craft TWF as a hybrid style. Less AC bonus than when wielding a shield, but with the chance for extra damage.
Two-Weapon Defense gets there a little already, and as far as I know there's no feat named Two-Handed Defense. Of course by now there's so many splatbooks, there's probably an official feat for boosting your combat prowess with spoons, but whatever.
Let me know what you think and I'll give it some more thought.


This sounds a lot like my weapon style rebalancing, referenced upthread. Each style gets rebalanced to have 3 core feats that define the style. Basically each style gets some damage boosts to try to keep each competitive, but also gets some secondary effect, usually either control or defense oriented.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-14, 11:52 PM
It's in one of my armor fix threads. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228380). Basically instead of armor as DR, I did armor as temporary HP that refreshes every round.

Though I'm contemplating making that temporary HP that refreshes every turn, so each player has to deal with it independently. That makes it still function as a "You must be this tall to ride" bar, but applies equally regardless of the number of attacks you make. I probably won't do it, but it is something under consideration.
I could see that. Right now, people who go early in the initiative order might not feel like they are actually doing anything and people and the players at the end of the order do the only real damage (even though it's mostly just a logical fallacy).


This sounds a lot like my weapon style rebalancing, referenced upthread. Each style gets rebalanced to have 3 core feats that define the style. Basically each style gets some damage boosts to try to keep each competitive, but also gets some secondary effect, usually either control or defense oriented.
Off to read it now; be back soon.

Edit: Actually, I need some sleep; gonna take a rain check and finish reading tomorrow.

cosmicstring
2012-02-15, 04:56 AM
How about we just make it simple and let ITWF and GTWF give bonuses to damage and attack (respectively) based on Dex mod whenever you're dual wielding? We can go with TWF as a conglomeration of the (old) feat chain, TWPounce, Double Hit, and Dual Strike (without the harsh penalties), and apply Deepbluediver's penalty rules for that.

As for the reason behind giving the damage bonus earlier than the attack bonus, that's to provide them non-rogue dual wielders the opportunity to deal helpful amounts of damage early on.

Would this be too rudimentary?

lesser_minion
2012-02-15, 05:30 AM
It's in one of my armor fix threads. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228380). Basically instead of armor as DR, I did armor as temporary HP that refreshes every round.

That was mistyped. That was what I found -- the idea I was looking for was having DR refresh every encounter.


Though I'm contemplating making that temporary HP that refreshes every turn, so each player has to deal with it independently. That makes it still function as a "You must be this tall to ride" bar, but applies equally regardless of the number of attacks you make. I probably won't do it, but it is something under consideration.

I don't think it needs to be a "you must be this tall to ride" bar, given that the purpose of DR is really to represent the fact that certain creatures are unusually tough, but vulnerable to certain weapons.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-15, 09:26 AM
This sounds a lot like my weapon style rebalancing, referenced upthread.
First thought: Damn, now I want to make a ranged combat-style fix, too. (as soon as I figure out how ranged combat actually works)

Second thoughts:
The Animated Property also no longer exists, because squirrel.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha...
Oh god, I think I cracked a rib laughing.


If you are wielding a weapon that is light,...you may opt to use your strength or dexterity modifier to attack, whichever is higher.
*yoink* That's getting stolen.

Ok, overall I like your fix a lot; I think it would work pretty well with the other core RAW. I personally believe that 3 feats is the minimum you should have for a given style, so I intend to leave approx. 6 in my list, but as I said before, it's easy enough to condense the effects and cut that number in half if a person likes the other aspects of it.



How about we just make it simple and let ITWF and GTWF give bonuses to damage and attack (respectively) based on Dex mod whenever you're dual wielding? We can go with TWF as a conglomeration of the (old) feat chain, TWPounce, Double Hit, and Dual Strike (without the harsh penalties), and apply Deepbluediver's penalty rules for that.

As for the reason behind giving the damage bonus earlier than the attack bonus, that's to provide them non-rogue dual wielders the opportunity to deal helpful amounts of damage early on.

Would this be too rudimentary?
I'm stealing borrowing Seerow's idea about automatically making light weapons finessible, so that's at least a small step in this direction. I need take another look at the DR reduction mechanic on GTW anyhow; it's to wonky as of this moment.
Edit: Also, I just really don't like the Dexterity-to-damage thing. I get that "Dex=Accuracy" part, but unless your playing a game with with called shots (I stab him in the head!) then I don't really see this dealing extra damage.


Lminion's comments about functionality have gotten me really interested in the idea of TWF as a partially defensive style, so I think I'm gonna add some sort of AC bonus; balance probably necessitates that I leave a small penalty to +Hit then, so that TWF doesn't completely eclipse other styles at low levels.
If/when I shift the numbers around, I'll spoiler the current table so that people can still have that as an option.