[PF] Nature Warden: Any good?

[Cieyrin]

I've looked at the class and it seems fairly decent, if somewhat of a pain to get into before UC gave us World Walker so we can get in as Druid 6 as opposed to a Ranger 7 or some version of Ranger 3/Cleric/Druid 3 or Oracle 4. It's perhaps less keen if you're not in your favored terrain, of which you'll have 3 or 4 without dipping Horizon Walker, but in your favored terrain you're a force to be reckoned with.

Is the overfocus on power in your terrain, 7/10 casting and loss of wild shape progression that horrible? I mean, you get a lot of enhancement to your animal companion and summons, too, so I'm kinda wondering why you don't hear about it and what I'm apparently missing...

[Novawurmson]

I think the biggest aversion people have to any Pathfinder prestige class is that the base classes are so much more viable. Unlike in 3.5, every level you multiclass or prestige class means you're missing out on something from your base class.

As far as Nature Warden itself is concerned, its best abilities are focused around, well, nature, when usually the primary antagonists in a game are unnatural - aberrations, undead, outsiders, monstrous humanoids, etc. Also, high-level campaigns tend to take place (in my experience) in cities, on other planes, deep underground, etc. where animals and plants are rare or nonexistent.

With the right DM, in a low-OP environment, this could be a decent pick (i.e., birds roost in the attic of the haunted house and you can talk to them, the main bad guy has a potted begonia that hears him rehearsing his evil monologues, etc.), but for most campaigns...by the time you can get into this class, you're going to be tired of fighting bears.

[Cieyrin]

I think the biggest aversion people have to any Pathfinder prestige class is that the base classes are so much more viable. Unlike in 3.5, every level you multiclass or prestige class means you're missing out on something from your base class.

As far as Nature Warden itself is concerned, its best abilities are focused around, well, nature, when usually the primary antagonists in a game are unnatural - aberrations, undead, outsiders, monstrous humanoids, etc. Also, high-level campaigns tend to take place (in my experience) in cities, on other planes, deep underground, etc. where animals and plants are rare or nonexistent.

With the right DM, in a low-OP environment, this could be a decent pick (i.e., birds roost in the attic of the haunted house and you can talk to them, the main bad guy has a potted begonia that hears him rehearsing his evil monologues, etc.), but for most campaigns...by the time you can get into this class, you're going to be tired of fighting bears.

At least on the environment part, you can choose Urban, Underground or a plane of your choice, in addition to the rest of the choices, so you could bring a lot of that stuff to bear.

Also, if you think that there aren't plants and animals in cities and underground, you haven't looked hard enough. Moss, mushrooms, weeds, rats, bats, birds, dogs, cats, squirrels, trees, grass, etc. all commonly exist in urban environments. Talk to the pigeon whose been through the area or the ivy on the old building you're investigating the comings and goings. Similar things can be found underground, though you'll be looking at more burrowing creatures. The planes vary depending on where you are (Plane of Fire probably doesn't have anything you want to talk to though Plane of Water probably has sea weed, Air has adapted tumble weeds, Earth has mushrooms and then there's places like Arborea and Ysgard, which is teaming with both animals and plants). Plus Guarded Lands makes any place your favored lands, if you have time to prepare, so you can bring your bonuses to bear.

Nature Warden does advance your companion still, as well as most of your casting, and trades some of your specials and wild shaping (which is not as good as it was in 3.5, anyways) for further enhancing your companion and summons. While I do agree that archetypes and the base class do provide a lot of material and customization, I'm not sure Nature Warden is that weak on any front except for the loss of casting. In 3.5, I would agree that multiclassing out of Druid generally makes no sense but in PF, I'm less sure of that.

[Engine]

While I do agree that archetypes and the base class do provide a lot of material and customization, I'm not sure Nature Warden is that weak on any front except for the loss of casting. In 3.5, I would agree that multiclassing out of Druid generally makes no sense but in PF, I'm less sure of that.

I disagree. I'll try to explain why I think the Nature Warden isn't that good for Rangers and Druids.

- Rangers: while in PF the animal companion is no more a dead weight for mid\high level Rangers, is still nothing great. It's a useful feature, but to be really effective at higher levels you need spellcasting. Animal Growth, Greater Magic Fang and Strong Jaw are all good spells to buff your companion, and you get them later because as a Nature Warden your already weak spellcasting is weaker. The buffs to summoned animals for a Ranger are useless, a Ranger's summons are weak, with Nature Warden you could cast Summon Nature's Ally IV at 17th level: simply not worth it. You lose feats for your combat style, and that hurts depending on your combat style. Other features are nice, but I feel that a Ranger loses more than she gains.

- Druid: Wild Shape is still useful, even it's no more an awesome feature. But what you lose with a Druid\Nature Warden is spellcasting levels and that's simply not worth it. The buffs for the animal companion and summons aren't worth the loss of three spellcasting level, same with the other features. A Druid is a spellcaster, if you're not optmized for Wild Shape (which doesn't advance with Nature Warden) then you could rely just on your spellcasting to be really effective. And a Nature Warden weaken your strongest class feature.

To me, Nature Warden is a trap for both Ranger and Druid. Probably for an Oracle, too.