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Dust
2012-02-12, 02:01 PM
I'm slowly working on another big fantasy homebrew setting, and I've hit a snag.
One of the key elements in this world is the lack of metal. I feel this would not only fit thematically for various reasons, but I also love the idea of going to fight things like dragons not for their stockpiles of treasure, but to retrieve the many steel weapons stuck into their scales from ages long past.

There's a few problems with taking this idea from it's conceptual stage, though!


What conditions would have to occur to make a geological landscape without naturally-occuring ores? And if I can only get rid of metal, what other sort of ores (such as gold?) might still be commonplace?
What technologies would be missing in a fantasy world without metal, or how else might it be different?
What other materials might be used for weapons? Ceramics, stone and bone are obvious, but I'm sure there's obscure things like quartz that simply haven't occurred to me!


Thanks in advance, guys and gals! :smallsmile:

ChaosOS
2012-02-12, 02:17 PM
Well, when you say "Without Metal", I presume you mean without Iron/Steel. Depending on how you want to make the creation story of your world, the reason Iron is so prominent is because it's highly produced in stars about to go supernova. Assuming you're doing standard fantasy setting that is just "created", you can make it more special and say it was created not by the gods/whatever created the material plane, but by whatever beings naturally opposed the creators of your setting. Normal weapons wouldn't have any super-special properties other than maybe being harder to destroy by whatever type of magic is created by the creators of your setting, but large contraptions designed to contain creatures representing the creators or even the creators themselves. (You can have the creators be sorta standard deities, or if you haven't decided try making them the far realm or some crazy thing like that)

Bit Fiend
2012-02-12, 02:52 PM
I dont know anything worth noting about geology but I would suggest you look up some stuff about the Aztecs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec) and the Maya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization) (no, not the 2012-end-of-the-world stuff). It's not like there was no metal around where they lived but both cultures simply didn't use it aside from gold. Their weapons for example would be made of wood, stone and obsidian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian) for bladed weapons (e.g. the macuahuitl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl)).

Bagelson
2012-02-12, 03:08 PM
You may want to take a look at the Empire trilogy by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts (Daughter of the Empire, Servant of the Empire, Mistress of the Empire). The setting is much like what you describe; iron is so rare that any iron objects are kept as treasures and symbols rather than tools.

leafman
2012-02-12, 03:11 PM
3. What other materials might be used for weapons? Ceramics, stone and bone are obvious, but I'm sure there's obscure things like quartz that simply haven't occurred to me!

Obsidian, some hard woods (list of woods and their hardnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_Wood_hardness_rating)), perhaps glass could serve for small weapons, hardened leather might work for a club like weapon, ivory, resin soaked into cloth to give it structure. I'll try to think of more naturally occuring or low tech man made material that could serve to make weapons.

paddyfool
2012-02-12, 03:42 PM
I'm slowly working on another big fantasy homebrew setting, and I've hit a snag.
One of the key elements in this world is the lack of metal. I feel this would not only fit thematically for various reasons, but I also love the idea of going to fight things like dragons not for their stockpiles of treasure, but to retrieve the many steel weapons stuck into their scales from ages long past.

There's a few problems with taking this idea from it's conceptual stage, though!

Interesting idea.



What conditions would have to occur to make a geological landscape without naturally-occuring ores? And if I can only get rid of metal, what other sort of ores (such as gold?) might still be commonplace?

Earth itself, or at least its surface, is already fairly metal poor - much of the iron, gold etc. on earth is in its core, with a good share of that on the surface having arrived via asteroid impact after the crust itself had formed out of lighter, non-metallic elements, during a time known as the Late Heavy Bombardment (http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/1787-earth-precious-metals-space-origin.html). For an earthlike planet to have less of the siderophile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldschmidt_classification) (iron-loving) metals immediately available, one solution would be to have this world be hit by far less total metallic objects after its core and crust had formed. Crucially, though, this wouldn't mean you'd have any less of the Chalcophile (chalcogen-loving) or Lithophile (rock-loving) metals. And the former include such staples as Copper and Tin (used to make Bronze), whereas the latter include Aluminium and Titanium (once people figure out how to extract them).

An alternative solution would be to alter the quantities of any metals you don't want by simply messing with the quantities of them around during the planet's original formation.

A third solution: gods/wizards/aliens did it :)

One point of interest on drastically altering the quantities of metals around: many metals (such as iron and copper) are important micronutrients for humans and a great deal of other life forms. So the fundamental biochemistry of your world will alter as you alter the fundamental chemistry. (Although your players don't have to know that...)


What technologies would be missing in a fantasy world without metal, or how else might it be different?

Where to start... using stone, wood, and biological products you'd generally have much more fragile, temporary, transitory tools, generally worse and fewer weapons (with some, like swords, not being practical at all), fewer mechanisms, especially small-scale ones, and so forth.


What other materials might be used for weapons? Ceramics, stone and bone are obvious, but I'm sure there's obscure things like quartz that simply haven't occurred to me!

What leafman said plus: diamonds and other hard gemstones; teeth; horns; poisons; various hides for armour... that's about it, so far as I can think of.

Gavinfoxx
2012-02-12, 04:15 PM
What system is this for? Some systems have various metal-alternative supermaterials stuck around in obscure places...

Dust
2012-02-12, 04:19 PM
It's for 4e D&D.

I am loving all of the suggestions, folks! You guys are great!

Coidzor
2012-02-12, 05:21 PM
Ceramic and stone mace heads would probably be the most common humanoid-killing weapon alongside stone-headed spears. Composite bows would also be possible.

Bit Fiend
2012-02-12, 05:24 PM
It's for 4e D&D.

What... y-you... N-No!! She tricked me! I didn't mean to support a 4e campaign! It's not my fault!!! Ahhhhh.....!! *is dragged away by 3.5e devils to be tortured forever with images of strangely balanced classes*



Nah, just kidding. By the way, if you want some graphical input of one of those "advanced Stone Age"** cultures I mentioned, I highly recommend Apocalypto (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472043/). It's quite a good movie and it shows some of the architecture and especially weaponry which can be achieved without the use of metal tools.

**Okay, they were more like Bronze Age, except for, you know, use of bronze...

Aidan305
2012-02-12, 05:37 PM
Plague of Rust Monsters.

On another note, I tried something like this once, with all metal being extremely rare.

One of my players immediately made a character who wielded a large-sized adamanatine hammer. I don't think he quite got the idea.

Eldan
2012-02-12, 05:43 PM
Chemists or alchemists would still be able to make at least some. By the simple fact that living creatures contain about a dozen kinds of metals.

paddyfool
2012-02-12, 05:43 PM
Ceramic and stone mace heads would probably be the most common humanoid-killing weapon alongside stone-headed spears. Composite bows would also be possible.

Yeah... on the military scale, I'd imagine spear + hide shield would be one of the most effective combos for infantry. For light cavalry, horse archers would be entirely feasible, and for heavy cavalry, you could have knights wandering in armour made of elephant hide or crocodile skin. (In our history, horses big enough to ride came long, long after metal, but without metal around, who's to say it would have happened that way?) Marauders you meet while adventuring could use anything from stealthier options such as blowpipes and darts, to stone axes, great big stone clubs, spears barbed with sharks teeth, knives made from hardened glass and so forth. Swords are tricky, but I suppose the old idea of a sword made from bone is a classic fantasy trope, however little sense it makes. Perhaps you could have some fantasy herdbeasts with bones which are especially suitable for such purposes, and extra-nice swords could be carved from dragonbone or somesuch.

Dust
2012-02-12, 05:47 PM
Chemists or alchemists would still be able to make at least some. By the simple fact that living creatures contain about a dozen kinds of metals.
Ohmigosh.

ohmygoshohmygoshohmygosh.

There are so many plot hooks right here.

Darilian
2012-02-12, 05:47 PM
Look up 'Tekumel', or 'Empire of the Petal Throne' for an interesting take on a Fantasy world that doesn't have metal. Another interesting one is Skyrealms of Jorune.

Amongst other things......

'Empire of the Petal Throne' is probably the coolest fantasy world ever created for a role playing game.

Darilian

paddyfool
2012-02-12, 05:59 PM
Chemists or alchemists would still be able to make at least some. By the simple fact that living creatures contain about a dozen kinds of metals.

Indeed. According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_the_human_body), your average 70kg human contains 19g of magnesium, 4.2g of iron, 2.3g of zinc, 0.07g of rubidium, 0.03g of strontium, 0.01g of lead, 0.007g of copper, and smaller amounts of various other metals.

However, if you alter the fundamental chemical balance of the world, you'll have to alter the biochemistry as well.

EDIT: Fixed following my initial miscounting of zeroes...

Bit Fiend
2012-02-12, 06:01 PM
Chemists or alchemists would still be able to make at least some. By the simple fact that living creatures contain about a dozen kinds of metals.

Would indeed be a great plot hook, akin to the use of "blood magic" as most of the iron in a creature's body is in it's blood.

Edit: "Ancestral Weapon" might get a whole new meaning... :smalleek:

Captain Six
2012-02-12, 06:03 PM
I have a standby excuse as to why "X real world technology doesn't work" although I've never had to use it. Simply put the alchemical properties of many substances changes slightly in the presence of a magical environment, for example gunpowder is a slow-burning substance used to start fires but not volatile enough to make firearms a possibility. It could be adapted to metals. iron is there but it is as soft as gold and not nearly as pretty so no one cares to mine it.

Mentioned earlier is the Rust Monster and many other possible magical parasites that are present in D&D. You could make them a bigger menace to the point where metals are forbidden because it draws the attention of the parasites. On the same note if powerful creatures such as Dragons are actively hoarding metals as treasure it really isn't worth keeping around. When "this nail will hold until it rusts out" changes to "this nail will hold until a dragon sees it, eats your family and takes it" it loses some of its appeal.

Bit Fiend
2012-02-12, 06:07 PM
Indeed. According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_the_human_body), your average 70kg human contains 190g of magnesium, 42g of iron, 23g of zinc, 0.7g of rubidium, 0.3g of strontium, 0.1g of lead, 0.07g of copper, and smaller amounts of various other metals.

However, if you alter the fundamental chemical balance of the world, you'll have to alter the biochemistry as well.

You miscalculated, it's all 10% of the values you named...

Eldan
2012-02-12, 06:09 PM
Thinking about it a bit further, though...

You'll probably have to exclude a lot of chemistry. It can't have been invented, since most common stone contains metal atoms. At the very least calcium (calcium carbonate), Magnesium (many, say, Dolomite), Sodium (again, tons, such as salt), Iron...

Basically, if you have stone, a chemist can probably make metal from it.

Bit Fiend
2012-02-12, 06:14 PM
But then again most of those metals are nigh usesless for your standard medieval setting... For tools, weapons and construction you need copper, tin and (preferably) iron... make those three rare enough and people will never use metal tools...

DoctorGlock
2012-02-12, 06:37 PM
A world without metal would have to be based on rock instead.

ok, puns out of the way, the ramifications are huge. A society without metal doesn't have nails or proper tools, you are looking full on stone age.

Maybe as an earlier poster suggested you mean iron and steel, in which case just look at any bronze age society and how it resembles the standard dark ages of suck. (Admittedly that had little to do with building materials)

JustyGhost
2012-02-12, 06:40 PM
Look at Dark Sun for an existing setting that already has a severe lack of Metal and is currently supported for 4th Edition.
That might give you some ideas on how to run a world without metal.

fusilier
2012-02-12, 06:48 PM
I dont know anything worth noting about geology but I would suggest you look up some stuff about the Aztecs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec) and the Maya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization) (no, not the 2012-end-of-the-world stuff). It's not like there was no metal around where they lived but both cultures simply didn't use it aside from gold. Their weapons for example would be made of wood, stone and obsidian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian) for bladed weapons (e.g. the macuahuitl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl)).

I would second this. The easiest way to do it, is to set the campaign in a culture that hasn't developed iron-working (or perhaps forgot it). By the way, the Aztecs and Mayans did have cast copper axes, but didn't develop bronze working. I also think that Mexico is copper rich, but iron poor. (Iron is more common throughout the world, but there is local variation).

Spiryt
2012-02-12, 06:48 PM
Aztec, Toltecs, Inka and other civilizations of Central and South America are pretty much ultimate 'help'.

Complex and "complicated" cultures with a lot of impressive material works with very, very limited use of metal at very most.

Zeta Kai
2012-02-12, 07:01 PM
Plague of Rust Monsters.

That's an elegant solution. I like it. How's this for a plausible scenario:

In a "normal" fantasy world, thousands of years ago, some aggressive empire made an army of iron golems to conquer their enemies. In response, a small rival kingdom, desperate for a countermeasure, turned to a college of wizards to summon a horde of rust monsters. The horde prevailed, saved the kingdom, but they got out of control, covered the countryside, & ate up every bit of iron & steel in sight, & eventually died out once they ran out of food. The damage was done, though, & now a steel dagger from the Age of Iron Empires is worth more than the life of the person who wields such a treasure.

Thoughts?

paddyfool
2012-02-12, 07:01 PM
I would second this. The easiest way to do it, is to set the campaign in a culture that hasn't developed iron-working (or perhaps forgot it). By the way, the Aztecs and Mayans did have cast copper axes, but didn't develop bronze working. I also think that Mexico is copper rich, but iron poor. (Iron is more common throughout the world, but there is local variation).

One fantasy setting with a stone age tech and an Aztec vibe which you could look at for conversion to 4e would be Epoch, in the Fantasy Craft Adventurer's Companion.

Kazyan
2012-02-12, 07:25 PM
Thinking about it a bit further, though...

You'll probably have to exclude a lot of chemistry. It can't have been invented, since most common stone contains metal atoms. At the very least calcium (calcium carbonate), Magnesium (many, say, Dolomite), Sodium (again, tons, such as salt), Iron...

Basically, if you have stone, a chemist can probably make metal from it.

The alkali and alkalie earth metals weren't isolated as actual metals until, uh, way after the medieval period. Those can exist without breaking verisimilitude.

Knaight
2012-02-12, 08:47 PM
The alkali and alkalie earth metals weren't isolated as actual metals until, uh, way after the medieval period. Those can exist without breaking verisimilitude.

So can most of the transition metals. Sure, copper, iron, zinc, lead, silver, and gold all saw significant use, and mercury was known. However, stuff like tungsten, chromium, titanium, and even nickel - all important alloys - saw little use. Then, outside of the transition metals we have aluminum, which didn't see heavy use until the modern periods, and is currently among the most important metals. As far as I know, the Lanthanides and Actinides are also clear.

Regarding the OP - I'd take a look at the various Central and South American cultures, as has already been stated. However, I'd also look at historical beliefs in magic outside of the Americas. Take alchemy - you've got the Chinese traditions, the Persian traditions, the European traditions, and the Ummayad and Abbasid traditions. Then there are mythical properties of nonmetals that are worth looking into - look at willow and jade in China, gemstones near universally, and into beliefs regarding bones and plants most everywhere.

As for metal being missing - an interesting take would be to have a huge amount of metal lost to space travel, due to magic making it feasible by lessening the big problems regarding energy that have limited it in the real world. Then, what's left is a society that collapsed due to the lack of metal, where what metal was left in infrastructure was largely removed, and eventually found it's way up to space. Communications collapsed, society collapsed soon after, and nature basically reclaimed most everything. Which, in practice, puts some of the following elements in play:

Gifts from the Sky - Occasionally a satellite will crash down. These are mysterious objects, and while they are usually melted down for metal they could also have significance for other reasons. These can also be sources of conflict - one group wants the satellite because it continues to give them information while damaged, others want to take it for metal.

Visitors - Aliens may have visited on several occasions. This includes several that lost their ships due to them being melted down for metal, which means in practice that various "monsters" can be traced to the stars. These aliens could also be the source of some magical traditions.

Communications - The satellites may be broadcasting on certain magical "frequencies", and this information may be somewhat accessible down on the planet. The information is a near nonsensical mess given current technology, but there are certain diviners who might be able to occasionally get something useful, and these sudden bursts of inspiration might just lead to changes.

Artificial Disasters - There may still be people in orbit, and if a couple of capital ships happen to duke it out there could be big problems. A sudden explosion in plasma that vaporizes a city could have a lot of ramifications, and the mere knowledge that that sort of thing happens would alter the way people thought about life.

Templarkommando
2012-02-12, 11:41 PM
I'm a big fan of Raymond E. Feist's novels. He kind of does something similar to this. There are two worlds that are connected by a "rift-gate." One is very similar to the standard idea of a fantasy world, the second world - which seems to be influenced a little more by Asian cultures (imho) - holds only a very small number of metal deposits throughout. In fact on Kelewan metal and gemstones are supposed to be extremely rare. So rare in fact, that a single low-quality gemstone from midkemia can fetch a King's ranson upon Kelewan. Incidentally, metal and gemstone trading are highly restricted.

Fortunately for the Kelwanese, there are tree-like plants that grow in Kelewan. The wood from these plants are nearly as strong as metal weapons and armor, and have the advantage of being plentiful on the Kelewan side of the rift.

As far as explaining why iron and steel are not commonplace is not necessarily something that *needs* explanation. Meaning that it doesn't necessarily have to be something that comes up, however reasons that I would use work as follows.

1. Long ago the campaign setting was thoroughly strip-mined by (insert race here; can include aliens, Outsiders, Mole Men, Greedy merchant wizards) and for some reason it is now unavailable. For example, the aliens took the metal and went somewhere else, the Outsiders keep all of the metal on another plane, the Mole Men keep it in order to feed their pet rust monsters, The merchant wizards wasted all of the metal in a series of contests of magical skill. All of the metal was thenceforth consumed.

2.Maybe a major transmutation turned all of the world's weapon-worthy metals into silicon and carbon and other relatively worthless materials.

3. There simply was very little metal development on this world. Maybe the last world the gods tried turned into a hell-hole of war and hatred, and the gods hoped to preempt that by making only certain materials widely available.

Vilyathas
2012-02-12, 11:42 PM
You may want to take a look at the Empire trilogy by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts (Daughter of the Empire, Servant of the Empire, Mistress of the Empire). The setting is much like what you describe; iron is so rare that any iron objects are kept as treasures and symbols rather than tools.

+1. To elaborate a bit:

The world was previously inhabited by a civilization which completely mined any and all available metal before they died out. What metal remains are considered family heirlooms and symbols of status, and are so valuable that the Empire was willing to go to war with another world across a Gate for control of that world's depleted metal mines. War casualties and slaves of that world were immediately stripped of metal, so whoever was leading the war campaign stands to profit.

To compensate for metal deficiency, the people of the Empire developed highly advanced laminating techniques, to the point that their laminated wooden weapons, armor, and pottery are almost as hard as steel.

Seerow
2012-02-12, 11:44 PM
You may want to take a look at the Empire trilogy by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts (Daughter of the Empire, Servant of the Empire, Mistress of the Empire). The setting is much like what you describe; iron is so rare that any iron objects are kept as treasures and symbols rather than tools.

Came here to suggest this. Also the Riftwar Saga, which runs more or less parallel to that story. It has less focus on the world with no metals, but it does touch on it, and I think has a few things that don't get brought up so much in the Empire Trillogy, just due to the different parts of the Empire it covers.


Edit: To clarify a point someone else made regarding the trillogy: The wood on Kelewan isn't any harder than anywhere else, though iirc the trees are pretty damn big. However due to lacking metals, the Tsurauni got pretty creative and developed a process that lets them laminate normal wood into something almost as hard as steel, and significantly lighter. They use this not just for weapons and tools, but it's also used in simpler things like bowls and cups.

paddyfool
2012-02-13, 03:00 AM
So can most of the transition metals. Sure, copper, iron, zinc, lead, silver, and gold all saw significant use, and mercury was known. However, stuff like tungsten, chromium, titanium, and even nickel - all important alloys - saw little use. Then, outside of the transition metals we have aluminum, which didn't see heavy use until the modern periods, and is currently among the most important metals. As far as I know, the Lanthanides and Actinides are also clear.


+1 to this. I reckon the only metals you'd need to restrict to avoid metal being used for weapons much would be iron, silver, copper and tin, plus maybe gold and lead (used for weighted clubs).

Another idea for why metals are rare: they've all been mined out from below by a long-lost subterranean civilisation. Somewhere, deep in the underdark, lie great metal palaces, guarded by iron golems and warped by the aftereffects of some massively destructive subterranean conflict...

Firest Kathon
2012-02-13, 06:30 AM
I find it interesting that so far all replies on this thread imagine a world without metal as stone age. But today we know a lot of non-metallic materials, e.g. ceramic knifes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_knife), fiberglass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-reinforced_plastic) boats and even whole airplanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner) made mostly out of carbon fiber-reinforced polymers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber-reinforced_polymer). So a society without metal could find more modern materials to replace it, especially with magic being present for the research, and they have all the reasons to do it as quickly as possible.

The Reverend
2012-02-13, 07:35 AM
Glass can be made REALLY REALLY TOUGH. There is a Russian? Company that makes glass nails for example. Ceramics also are another approach.

One odd side effect might be swords are basically unknown, too brittle to use effectively and edges would be too hard to maintain along such a large blade. Poisons....lots of poisons. use of fire tubes instead of flint and steel.

Spiryt
2012-02-13, 07:59 AM
I find it interesting that so far all replies on this thread imagine a world without metal as stone age. But today we know a lot of non-metallic materials, e.g. ceramic knifes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_knife), fiberglass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-reinforced_plastic) boats and even whole airplanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner) made mostly out of carbon fiber-reinforced polymers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber-reinforced_polymer). So a society without metal could find more modern materials to replace it, especially with magic being present for the research, and they have all the reasons to do it as quickly as possible.

Those are made in factories with metal machines, using energy from power plants that require rather complicated metallurgy, all put together with screws and rivets, and so on....

Those are products of advanced technology that was in huge part iron/steel dependent for a lot of times (and still is).

Even assuming that non ferrous civilization would come up with stuff like that, they would probably look completely different and it would be pretty interesting to come up with hypothetical development of stuff like that.

Bastian Weaver
2012-02-13, 08:11 AM
I would suggest a biological civilization. Check out the Eden trilogy by Harry Harrison. Make it less or more advanced to suit your taste, replace dinosaur geneticists with wizards...

paddyfool
2012-02-13, 09:40 AM
I would suggest a biological civilization. Check out the Eden trilogy by Harry Harrison. Make it less or more advanced to suit your taste, replace dinosaur geneticists with wizards...

Definitely a fun option. Perhaps some civilisations could specialise more in manipulation of animals and plants, others in shaping stone (including golems etc.), others still ceramics and glass...

QuidEst
2012-02-13, 10:14 AM
Sounds interesting.

It's been said quite a few times, but obsidian is great. They still use in in surgical implements because you can sharpen it down to pretty much the molecular level. 0_o

You could have some interesting glass/ceramic weapons that are pretty much single-use weapons that you stab somebody with and break off. Might use a little homebrew blood magic that breaks it on a successful strike?

Blow guns, stabbing weapons, more effective leather armor, more traps in war, druids hold a really high place in society and aren't as isolated, and nobody pays much attention to those strange fanatics who mess around with chemicals and rocks, swearing that they're on to something.

I love the idea of alchemist/chemist plot hooks! Just a though… give planar travel spells a metal material component. Something that takes a lot of what only exists in trace amounts in animals and people. Once you /get/ somewhere, though, you have access to a lot of metal. That makes for all sorts of interesting possibilities. :belkar:

Eldan
2012-02-13, 10:21 AM
Actually, go Alexandrian for your armour, do the Linothorax and variants on it. It's surprisingly effective, from the tests I've seen.

Clawhound
2012-02-13, 10:22 AM
Some old standards that I did not see mentioned yet:


Wood lamellar
Ceramic plate lamellar
Bullette Armor/Shield
Padded armor
Dragon scale armor
Dragon tooth weapons
Chiton (insect carapace) armor
Shell armor (giant crabs, strange clams, etc)
Rope armor
Hide/wood shields
Spider silk clothing
Glasssteel
Darkwood
Crystal weapons

Deepbluediver
2012-02-13, 10:56 AM
A world without iron and steal doesn't have to be stone-age. Copper is soft enough that it doesn't make good weapons or armour, but still lets you have metal tools; things like nails, cooking pots, chef's knives, etc. Alternatively, you could have different stats for stone and copper weapons (increased damage vs increased chance to break, higher cost to repair, etc.)
In a metal-poor world, Iron becomes the local equivalent of mithral or adamantine, flavorwise, I would think.

The materials that replace iron (or all metal, if you want to go that route) can be as fantastic or mundane as you want. There are plenty of historical examples of cultures making wood, woven fiber, or cloth armor, and using bone and stone tips with wood handles for weapons. You might have a whole new style of weapons that use a wood or bone core, but have metal edges (like the equivalent of masterwork stuff).
Or you could make your own species of "metal-trees" that collect the minute amounts of metal found in the environment, and condense it to a point where it's viable to extract and refine. Maybe you harvest the trees by tapping them, and their "sap" runs like mercury (aka) quicksilver.

Eldan
2012-02-13, 11:01 AM
As for the metal tree, there are in fact some grasses that collect metal at the edges of the leaves. They are, quite literally, blades, and fantastically sharp.

Aerlock
2012-02-13, 11:04 AM
Glass can make a pretty effective knife in the right hands if the novel Snow Crash is anything to go by. Dunno if it would translate out to swords well but with wizards flying around I image it could be worked up. Plus aren't there a couple of spells that increase the hardness of materials to resist breaking? Also Glassteel(sp?) from Faerun is a distinct possibility, Don't remember the details just that it was pretty nice and sounds thematically appropriate.

- Aerlock

Kansaschaser
2012-02-13, 11:14 AM
What conditions would have to occur to make a geological landscape without naturally-occuring ores? And if I can only get rid of metal, what other sort of ores (such as gold?) might still be commonplace?
What technologies would be missing in a fantasy world without metal, or how else might it be different?
What other materials might be used for weapons? Ceramics, stone and bone are obvious, but I'm sure there's obscure things like quartz that simply haven't occurred to me!


1. To get rid of all naturally occurring metal would be herculean task. It most likely occurred because of an epic spell or the intervention of a deity. The epic spell or the divine intervention that removed the natural metals, it's possible that minerals like gold, silver, cobalt, copper, platinum, and/or tungsten were not removed/destroyed/transmuted (how ever it was removed).

2. Iron is used is such simple every day items. Having to replace the iron in these items would make the cost skyrocket if you can't replace it with wood. They are things like: Sweing Needles, Buckets, Fishing Hooks, Nails, Hinges, Door Knobs, Locks, Shovels, Pitons, Hammer, Bells, Some Musical Instruments, Tuneing Fork, and Chain. Most of these items must be made of a metal of some sort. It's not possible to use wood substitues in most of these items. Spells that repair metal items would be used a lot. When a house is being torn down, they would take care to remove all the nails, hinges, and other metal items so they could be repaired and reused.

3. After several years, the society would adjust to using non-metal items. After the initial devestation of no new metal from mines, they would start using wood from Darkwood trees. Some weapon crafters would start making items from Darkwood, Silver, Stone, Ceramic, Bone, etc... It's also possible some spellcasters would create spells that could be used to create metal, such as Transmute Stone to Metal.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-13, 11:42 AM
2. Iron is used is such simple every day items. Having to replace the iron in these items would make the cost skyrocket if you can't replace it with wood. They are things like: Sweing Needles, Buckets, Fishing Hooks, Nails, Hinges, Door Knobs, Locks, Shovels, Pitons, Hammer, Bells, Some Musical Instruments, Tuneing Fork, and Chain. Most of these items must be made of a metal of some sort. It's not possible to use wood substitues in most of these items.

Bone sewing needles (http://www.ancientresource.com/images/roman/bone/roman-bone-pins1855.jpg)
Wooden buckets (http://www.jakesctp.com/images/WOODEN%20BUCKETS/BUCKET%20GROUPING.jpg)
Bone fishing hooks (http://www.skopelos.net/sporades/images/gioura/hooks-2.jpg)
Wooden pegs (http://debrichardson.com/barn2.jpg)
Leather (http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/185620_KLAaHGHmP7L5GVVtEf9rv3yft.jpg) hinges (http://lumberjocks.com/assets/pictures/projects/108970.jpg)
Wooden door latch (http://woodgears.ca/wood_hardware/door_handle.jpg)
Wooden shovel (http://www.antique-skis.com/images/uploads/Skis/_MG_2452_2.jpg)
Stone hammer (http://www.spirit-of-the-miners.org.uk/lluniau/hammer_stone.jpg)
A rope bridge (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CcRQoNaTs7M/Tef9RPbeTmI/AAAAAAAAALU/srekbsrifms/s1600/ropebridge.jpg)
A variety of musical instruments (http://www.balifurnish.com/balidrum5_didgeridoo/musical-instruments-bamboo-wood-bali-indonesia.jpg), none made (http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1566/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1566-668634.jpg)of metal (http://millenniareproductions.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/al36.56174256.jpg)

Humans are a remarkably adaptive species, and while metal would work BETTER for many of these things, it's not the only solution by a long shot.

Raimun
2012-02-13, 11:56 AM
Dude? No metal? That's totally non non-heinous!

Kansaschaser
2012-02-13, 12:01 PM
Bone sewing needles (http://www.ancientresource.com/images/roman/bone/roman-bone-pins1855.jpg)
Wooden buckets (http://www.jakesctp.com/images/WOODEN%20BUCKETS/BUCKET%20GROUPING.jpg)
Bone fishing hooks (http://www.skopelos.net/sporades/images/gioura/hooks-2.jpg)
Wooden pegs (http://debrichardson.com/barn2.jpg)
Leather (http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/185620_KLAaHGHmP7L5GVVtEf9rv3yft.jpg) hinges (http://lumberjocks.com/assets/pictures/projects/108970.jpg)
Wooden door latch (http://woodgears.ca/wood_hardware/door_handle.jpg)
Wooden shovel (http://www.antique-skis.com/images/uploads/Skis/_MG_2452_2.jpg)
Stone hammer (http://www.spirit-of-the-miners.org.uk/lluniau/hammer_stone.jpg)
A rope bridge (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CcRQoNaTs7M/Tef9RPbeTmI/AAAAAAAAALU/srekbsrifms/s1600/ropebridge.jpg)
A variety of musical instruments (http://www.balifurnish.com/balidrum5_didgeridoo/musical-instruments-bamboo-wood-bali-indonesia.jpg), none made (http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1566/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1566-668634.jpg)of metal (http://millenniareproductions.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/al36.56174256.jpg)

Humans are a remarkably adaptive species, and while metal would work BETTER for many of these things, it's not the only solution by a long shot.

While it's true that a lot of these items can be made of non-metal materials, most of the work much better than their non-metal counterpart. Plus, the alternative might be as expensive as using metal in a world where metal is rare.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-13, 12:06 PM
While it's true that a lot of these items can be made of non-metal materials, most of the work much better than their non-metal counterpart. Plus, the alternative might be as expensive as using metal in a world where metal is rare.

Pre-industrial revolution, metal was far to expensive for just about everyone except for the nobility. All of those example are things peasents and common folk would have used. The reason they are so cheap is that unlike metal, which has to be mined and then refined, these are all materials which can be picked up off the ground (or are actually ground, if we're talking about clay) and used as-is.

Gavinfoxx
2012-02-13, 12:36 PM
It's for 4e D&D.

I am loving all of the suggestions, folks! You guys are great!

You do know that Dark Sun was released for 4e, and describes some rules for this quite well?? Go get everything 4e Dark Sun that you can find...

Knaight
2012-02-13, 12:47 PM
Pre-industrial revolution, metal was far to expensive for just about everyone except for the nobility. All of those example are things peasents and common folk would have used. The reason they are so cheap is that unlike metal, which has to be mined and then refined, these are all materials which can be picked up off the ground (or are actually ground, if we're talking about clay) and used as-is.

That is really not accurate. In the bronze age bronze was a fairly big deal, and as a rule non-nobles/non-tribal chiefs/whatever didn't really have meaningful access to it. The iron age changed that, as iron was very abundant relative to bronze, and most anyone could have some of it. Even in iron poor areas (e.g. Scandinavia) most people had at least some iron, enough for a few tools at the very least. Plows, sickles, these things really don't take all that much iron, and the iron they take isn't the weapons grade steel that tended to be somewhat rarer.

Kansaschaser
2012-02-13, 01:15 PM
I guess if the people in your world want to use non-metalic items for every day things (nails, shovels, hinges, needles, fishing hooks, etc..), then I would say they don't last as long as their metal counterparts. Sure you can make a shovel out of wood, but it would break down much faster compared to a metal shovel.

In essence, I would add the "Minecraft Effect" to the world. You can use a wooden shovel to dig up to 1,000 cubic feet of material before it breaks, but you could use a metal shovel to dig up 10,000 cubic feet of material. That means you would need to buy 10 wooden shovels compared to buying only one metal shovel. So, because people would need to buy a lot more of the non-metal tools/items, they would also go up in price due to market demand.

Metal makes for a much better quality item. In order for the non-metal items to last as long as the metal items, you would probably need to magically treat them. In 3.5, you could just cast Hardening on them to make them tougher. In 4th edition, there aren't any spells or rituals I know of that can increase the durability or hardness of an item. Maybe you can develope a ritual that increases the hardness/durability of items so they work as well as their metal counterparts.

Zen Master
2012-02-13, 02:03 PM
In relation to the opening post - questions:

First off, why would you need to explain the lack of (ferrous) metals to the players? To anyone living on such a world, it would be no mystery at all. There just wouldn't be any. Much like there is no kryptonite on earth.

Second off, you ask for technologies - weapons, armor and so on. I think you need to set a level for any answer to be meaningful. A technology level like ours would theoretically be possible in a world without metals, but it would be different. There's be no cars, but that doesn't mean transportation wouldn't happen. Genetics might replace manufacture, and so on.

To my mind, it also greatly depends on what flavor you want. If you want a stone age setting, genetically altered riding beasts might not be the thing - or possibly so, it being a fantasy realm after all.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-13, 02:51 PM
That is really not accurate. In the bronze age bronze was a fairly big deal, and as a rule non-nobles/non-tribal chiefs/whatever didn't really have meaningful access to it. The iron age changed that, as iron was very abundant relative to bronze, and most anyone could have some of it. Even in iron poor areas (e.g. Scandinavia) most people had at least some iron, enough for a few tools at the very least. Plows, sickles, these things really don't take all that much iron, and the iron they take isn't the weapons grade steel that tended to be somewhat rarer.
I think you are missing the point a little. I was trying to show that even without access to metal, people had the same everday items, and they could be made from common, everyday materials.
You don't need to have the entire setting altered to show people coping with this apparently-radical change, especially if they've grown up with it.


I guess if the people in your world want to use non-metalic items for every day things (nails, shovels, hinges, needles, fishing hooks, etc..), then I would say they don't last as long as their metal counterparts. Sure you can make a shovel out of wood, but it would break down much faster compared to a metal shovel.

In essence, I would add the "Minecraft Effect" to the world. You can use a wooden shovel to dig up to 1,000 cubic feet of material before it breaks, but you could use a metal shovel to dig up 10,000 cubic feet of material.
Obviously if you use a wooden/bone/stone tool in the same way you use a metal one, it's not going to last very long. That being said, if you knew that every fishhook you lost ment you would spend 6 hours carving one, you'd be a little more careful in their use. If your line gets tangled, rather than just cutting it and thinking "I'll by another pack of 50 next time I'm at the store" you'd probably swim down to try and free it.

Now, when was the last time you actually tracked breakage and damage in a game you where playing? Metal is not immune to dulling and breaking; in fact if you ever got 2 swords and banged them against one another for a bit, you'd see they start to chip and lose their edge pretty quickly (one more advantage of bludgeoning weapons). I think if you want to get into that level of detal in the game, then you add a few simple mechanics (like Pathfinder's "fragile" or "brittle" qualities) and leave it at that.


That means you would need to buy 10 wooden shovels compared to buying only one metal shovel. So, because people would need to buy a lot more of the non-metal tools/items, they would also go up in price due to market demand.
The issue is, in a classical fantasy setting, people don't run down to the local Walmart whenever they need a new pair of shoe laces. Most NPC commoners (farmers and laborers) have more time than money, and so they end up crafting most of what they need. It takes a relatively low Crafting check to carve a crude wooden shovel, while to make a metal one you would need to mine metal ore (after you somehow manage to find it), refine it (requiring advanced technical knowledge) and then work the metal into the desired shape (with the coal, smithy, and tools you've somehow acquired).

Metal tools still cost more because they are vastly harder to manufacture.
In a world without metal (or without cheap metal) anyone without the money to pay for the dozens of skilled workers needed to produce metal goods (or magic to make the equivalent) ends up crafting most of what they need for themselves.


Speaking of the Craft skill, in a world where you actually track gear-damage, the ability to repair weapons and armor while on the move might be much more valuable.
Just a thought.

Seharvepernfan
2012-02-13, 03:01 PM
Someone else may have said this already, but dragons and other large monsters could be used to create weapons. Use the bones, claws, teeth, spines, etc. to make weapons and their scales or chitin or even fur/hide to make armor.

Obsidian has a sharper edge than steel, though its brittle.

Their are these big ruins in south america made of the hardest kind of stone, and I can't think of what its called. Starts with a B, I think.

Ash is the hardest wood, and wood can be fire-hardened to be even tougher.

Coidzor
2012-02-13, 03:21 PM
^: Basalt, perhaps? Bauxite, the ore of Aluminium/Aluminum?



Well, if you're playing in 3e, then Inspire Courage wouldn't have progressed past Rock.

Spiryt
2012-02-13, 03:28 PM
Ash is not even hardest wood in Europe and general northern regions of Earth.

And hardness alone cannot be really considered most important thing as far as usefulness for weapon/whatever goes.

Clawhound
2012-02-13, 03:49 PM
Explanation: There was never any metal in the first place.

Explanation: The earth lords suffered a major defeat in the elemental wars, causing them to retreat.

Explanation: The great McGuffin plague 100 years ago destroyed the metal.

Explanation: The Rain of Colorless Fire destroyed the metal.

Explanation: Great magic needed metal as a power source and most of it was destroyed in ancient wars.

Explaining away metal is easy.

Bit Fiend
2012-02-13, 04:01 PM
You can't kill the metal
The metal will live on
Punk-Rock tried to kill the metal
But they failed, as they were smacked to the ground

New-wave tried to kill the metal
But they failed, as they were stricken down to the ground
Grunge tried to kill the metal Ha,hahahahaha
They failed, as they were thrown to the ground

No-one can destroy the metal
The metal will strike you down with a vicious blow
We are the vanquished foes of the metal
We tried to win for why we do not know

New-wave tried to destroy the metal, but the metal had its way
Grunge then tried to dethrone the metal, but metal was in the way
Punk-rock tried to destroy the metal, but metal was much too strong
Techno tried to defile the metal, but techno was proven wrong
Yea!

Metal!
It comes from hell!

- Tenacious D, The Metal

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Seharvepernfan
2012-02-13, 04:52 PM
Bauxite, the ore of Aluminium/Aluminum?


I think it was Bauxite.

Alejandro
2012-02-13, 06:41 PM
Read the book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. There is a lot of insightful commentary on human societies with more/better use of metals versus those that did not.

One thing to consider: metal was a major reason for successful human agriculture on a larger scale, from excavation of canals to tilling fields to milling. Your world might have a much smaller population, as they might not be able to feed themselves otherwise. However, something else, like magic, could overrule this.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-13, 07:57 PM
One thing to consider: metal was a major reason for successful human agriculture on a larger scale, from excavation of canals to tilling fields to milling. Your world might have a much smaller population, as they might not be able to feed themselves otherwise. However, something else, like magic, could overrule this.

Good point. Rather than the standard medieval-European culture setting you could have your adventure play out in an area where most people are herder nomads (native americans, asian steppe), where people had more hunter/gatherer cultures (polynesia, central africa), or where the climate was such that farming was relatively easy (aztec or egyptian empires).

theMycon
2012-02-14, 09:12 PM
"No metal" can span a huge scale, from "large armies are impossible because there are only a handful of weapons that can be repaired, and instead they need to be full replaced" to "you can't play any mammals because everything with hemoglobin will die of Anemia before it has a chance to reproduce." All the ideas in this thread are good, but you can pick anywhere on this spectrum to make it as world-defining as you like.

Fouredged Sword
2012-02-22, 09:22 PM
I once played around with a setting that adventurers existed because metal was rare, so you have to make weapons and armor from the hides and bones of savage dinosaurs. The bone was shaped, then treated to a bath of chemicals that fossilized it to metal hardness.

The players formed a pack of hunters who hunted down these large beasts while the rest of civilization lived in the mountains away from the savage jungle. One kill would provide you with enough money to live for years if you managed to get the corpse home.

Tetsubo 57
2012-02-25, 09:17 AM
I recommend reading The World Tree and Shard role-playing games. They both deal with very low metal settings.

Mikeavelli
2012-02-25, 01:39 PM
Read the book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. There is a lot of insightful commentary on human societies with more/better use of metals versus those that did not.

One thing to consider: metal was a major reason for successful human agriculture on a larger scale, from excavation of canals to tilling fields to milling. Your world might have a much smaller population, as they might not be able to feed themselves otherwise. However, something else, like magic, could overrule this.

Agreeing with this here.

Weaponry is literally the last thing you should be considering when you're building an alternate world without metal. Magic would have to take center stage for any society more advanced than hunter-gatherers or adobe-hut villages.

You can't mine stone in large quantities without having tools more durable than the stone you're mining, you can perform large-scale agriculture, etc. There's a reason ancient societies are often defined by the materials they have access to (Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, etc).

galgorin
2012-02-26, 05:14 PM
I've been thinking over a concept for a world design that is a bit different which would fit this discussion. Firest Kathon touched on it in a way with his mention of modern materials.

The overall world is a generation ship, one of those huge cylinders made from carbon nanotubes. The interior would be spacious enough to hold a lot of people, and keep people going for a while before they figured out just what exactly was going on.

From the perspective of the people putting the ship together though, I wouldn't want to encourage people to go digging about for metals, I'd give them alternatives. I like the wood concepts, and I'd already be thinking of some of the stuff from Tekumel.

I'm also picturing this society as having some nanotech, though the way I'd thought of implementing it would be almost like alchemy. Combinations of certain things would have certain effects. My mental image of this storyline has the players so far along in the ship's flight that like the generation ship cliche goes, they have no idea what they're flying on anymore. So to them, it would just be "the way to mix up a good coating for that wood tool base to make it hard".

Deepbluediver
2012-02-27, 04:55 PM
@Galgorin

I've seen a couple of stories like that; I usually think they're pretty fun. The only thing is, though, usually there is/was some kind of disaster that started the transistion to get to the point where science has faded back into mysticism.

For example (little different, but similar) there was a sci-fi series called Ringworld, I think, about a Dyson ring, which is essentially a manufactured ring with a circumference equal to the normal orbit of a plant (i.e. it's pretty damn BIG). Obviously, it was built by a race far more advanced than either it's explorers or it's current inhabitants seem to be.

[SPOILER]It turns out that for a while after the ring was built, it was the heaven-on-earth paradise that it was designed to be, but at some point a comet punched through the ring and disabled the solar-power generation system. The population had grown somewhat complacent during the interval, so every just waited for everyone else to fix it. Of course, the stored energy eventually ran out, and since there where no other resources (no fossil fuel, no metallic ores) and there where no weapons or even heavy machinery, technology regressed to a stone-age level and got stuck there.
[END SPOILERS]

Something like that might provide a good mystery for your group to solve. Either "discover the truth" or "fix the problem", or some combination of the two.

There are lots of different variations on this theme; another good one was a manufactured, planet-sized sphere, with what was effectively a nuclear reactor at it's center. The sphere was so big, that life was actually set up on the INSIDE of the surface, with the arificial "Sun" above/below them. (sounds confusing but just think about it for a minute) Since there was never any night time or change of seasons, vegetation and plant life grew wild.
In that case, the original creators of the sphere had long since gone extinct, and the natives (dwarves and gnomes, I think) where being overrun by a group of giant constructs gone insane.

Gahrer
2012-02-28, 06:10 AM
@Galgorin
There are lots of different variations on this theme; another good one was a manufactured, planet-sized sphere, with what was effectively a nuclear reactor at it's center. The sphere was so big, that life was actually set up on the INSIDE of the surface, with the arificial "Sun" above/below them. (sounds confusing but just think about it for a minute) Since there was never any night time or change of seasons, vegetation and plant life grew wild.
In that case, the original creators of the sphere had long since gone extinct, and the natives (dwarves and gnomes, I think) where being overrun by a group of giant constructs gone insane.

Are you talking about "Elven Star" from the Deaths Gate Cycle? It fits almost perfectly except that there was elves and humans in that book.

Eric Tolle
2012-03-03, 11:00 AM
In the setting I'm working on metals are relatively rare because the long-vanished civilizations mined them all and put them in forms that were difficult for the current renaissance-level civilization to work with. Nor is there any coal left for smelting. However, they are actually more advanced then our civilization when it comes to ceramics (shades of Nausica), so theres a lot of ceramic tools, and the occasional expensive iron item forged from deposits iron oxide found in former landfills.