(3.5) Fiendish creature template

[hisnamehere]

I'm sure this has come up before, but...

Is the +2 LA on the Fiendish template really fair? Especially compared to templates such as Feral and Mineral Warrior. Is there something I'm not getting, like being extraplanar granting unstated but awesome advantages?
Otherwise, +2!? I can see if it's on a creature with racial HD, but putting this on an elf gives them darkvision, resistance cold/fire 5, and arguably 5 or 6 SR. I know SR is supposed to up the LA quickly, but it just doesn't seem worth 2 levels for the gains.

Thoughts?

[Vemynal]

Outsider + Alter self = madness

Spell resistance...meh

You are right though, this template is *no* Saint template.

[Urpriest]

Most LA isn't worth it. There are very few exceptions in Core, and this is not one of them.

[Mystify]

mineral warrior and feral are ridiculously powerful for their LA. Most LA is not worth it. The entire premise behind LA is incorrect.

[hisnamehere]

Outsider + Alter self = madness

Where do they get the alter self? Or you mean IF they get it?

Yeah, wasn't looking to make a case for Mineral Warrior and Feral being the benchmarks of reasonable templates.

From a purely optimum perspective, agreed, LA is rarely (I'm looking at you, Feral), if ever, worth it. However, flavor-wise, templates can change, in a memorable way, an entire adventure/character.

[Vemynal]

Sometimes templates can be a case of fluff > mechanics

And yes, I meant if they get Alter Self; but that's not exactly hard by *any* means.

[Mystify]

Where do they get the alter self? Or you mean IF they get it?

Yeah, wasn't looking to make a case for Mineral Warrior and Feral being the benchmarks of reasonable templates.

From a purely optimum perspective, agreed, LA is rarely (I'm looking at you, Feral), if ever, worth it. However, flavor-wise, templates can change, in a memorable way, an entire adventure/character.

Mineral warrior and Feral are the opposite extreme of templates. They give abilities that are too good for their level. DR 8/adamantine is amazing at level 2, and easily makes up for a missing HD. (1 HD is probably less than 8 hp anyways). Thats not even considering everything else the template gives you.

And Feral gets fast healing. That is a tremendous advantage over the course of a campaign, as it removes you from the healing budget.

The problem is the entire premise that a template offers a linear offset in capabilities from an untemplated creature. That is simply not the case, and hence LA is always misrepresenative.

[lunar2]

simple fix: let the fiendish template grant abilities based on ECL, instead of RHD. it's still a sucky template, but it's not as sucky.

Fiendish Creature template abilities are based on total HD, not RHD. an elf with class levels gains the same benefits from it as a monster with RHD.

also, it doesn't change your type unless you were originally an animal or vermin, so it won't get you any alter self tricks.

[Thurbane]

The LA of playable templates is pretty hit an miss, in the grand scheme of things. Some books (especially core) tend to overestimate the worth of special abilities and/or stat modifiers, while some books undervalue them.

I don't think it would be broken to houserule Fiendish to +1 LA.

[Myrryr]

(Sorry 'bout necro'ing the thread but it seemed pertinent instead of making a new one)

Out of curiousity, the Vile Death spell from the Savage Species... would it even be worth it to cast this 9th level spell on an undead? Or is there something I'm missing, such as the fiend you choose grants specific things?