[PF] Dwarven Barbarian help needed [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Krazzman

2012-02-12, 04:51 PM

Hello again Playground,

today we had the test-play with our upcoming campaign-group.
I ran the module We Be Goblins for them and we now started to plan out some characters in advance.

I've got mine for a mixed campaign but are a bit oblivious about if we gonna be a full dwarven group. But that's another topic...

First off, my Girlfriend wants to play either a Dwarven Barbarian or a Dwarven Druid. Since I want to be the Dwarven Cleric... she will probably tend more to Barbarian to revive her old char.
We don't know the method of stat generation so far but she will priotize(?) Str > Con > dex > int = wis > cha.

Her explanation of what she wants to play is a tunnel sentry that protects the miners from harmful monsters with striking them and (if she takes my advice so far) bullrushing them against the walls.

For feats we thought about Powerattack, improved bullrush, greater bull rush, critical bullrush (and maybe monkey grip with a big dwarven waraxe) Vital Strike .

We don't know which level we will start but our DM is quite good in doing longgoing campaigns (even if I haven't played sofar in one because of our group only wanting one-shots...) and I expect the campaign to reach level 10 at least.

Her weapons of choice so far are: Dwarven Waraxe, Greataxe, Earth Breaker, Lucerne Hammer or something along this way.

We will definitly play in Faerun if that is important and it's gonna be low to mid op (this is the maximum).

I hope you can help me help her.

Engine

2012-02-12, 05:23 PM

I would not dump Wisdom. Failing a Will Save could be nasty for a Barbarian.

Anyway. I would take the Invulnerable Rager archetype for a Barbarian. You gain half your level to DR, and full level to DR against non-lethal damage. I would probably drop the Bull Rush chain for Extra Rage Power feats. I feel that a lot of Rage Powers are way better than most of the feats, surely better than the Bull Rush chain.
Then I would take Guarded Life, Greater Guarded Life and Flesh Wound. With these Rage Powers a Barbarian could convert a lot of lethal damage to non-lethal damage, and an Invulnerable Rager has her full level to DR against non-lethal damage. That way, a Barbarian could be really resilient against damage.

I would also take the Beast Totem chain. At 10th level you could have Pounce, which is an amazing feature for a Barbarian. Full attack after a charge means that you could kill an enemy in just one round.

Novawurmson

2012-02-12, 05:33 PM

Engine

2012-02-12, 06:09 PM

Also, make sure you read through all the rage powers on the SRD (or Ultimate Combat if you're using the dead-tree format). Beyond standard damage potential stuff (Pounce being amazing), there's some utility abilities, including wings/fly speed, debuffing, crowd control, and hitting a spell so hard you break it (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/spell-sunder-su).

Reality: "Ms. Barbarian? I don't think that's possib-"
Barbarian: "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGGGHGHGHGA!"
::cleaves Reality in twain::

I would advise against Spell Sunder. You need Superstition for that Rage Power, it means that a Barbarian could not be the willing target of any spell while raging. Moment of Clarity could be used to avoid that, but I'm still conviced that, most of the times, is better to leave the task of disppeling to other classes.

Novawurmson

2012-02-12, 07:20 PM

I would advise against Spell Sunder. You need Superstition for that Rage Power, it means that a Barbarian could not be the willing target of any spell while raging. Moment of Clarity could be used to avoid that, but I'm still conviced that, most of the times, is better to leave the task of disppeling to other classes.

Gah. Saw that it required Witch Hunter, didn't catch that Witch Hunter required Superstition.

I do like Body Bludgeon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/body-bludgeon-ex), though, if just for the mental image.

Blyte

2012-02-12, 08:49 PM

Druid lvl 10 <pseudo-barbarian>

Str max
Dex 14+
Wis 15+

Feats:
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack
5 Furious Focus
7 Weapon Focus (great club)
9 Vital Strike

opt for domain spells instead of natures bond and take the sub domain rage under destruction.. you will be able to rage for lvl rounds a day.. and at lvl 12+ you get to start picking up rage powers.

SOP - Walk around as a large sized earth elemental and bonk things with a large sized great club with shillelagh cast on it. Since earth elementals can speak you don't need to take wild spell.

In a large earth elemental chassis you will be getting +6 str, raging you get an additional +4, and with a 20 str and a +4 str item, you will be sitting at 34 total while raging.

so with a BAB of 7 at lvl 10...

(vital striking)
+20 to hit bonus
8d8 +27 damage

(AoOs)
+20 to hit
4d8 +27 damage

also definitely opt for armor of the wild, so you can still have a decent ac. earth elemental form gives you a nice chuck of natural armor to bolster it.

this guy has great saves full casting and damn good melee capability.

-edit sorry I factored in a 3rd tier to power attack in damage calculations, he should only be at the 2nd tier until he hits lvl 11. so subtract 3 for now.

Engine

2012-02-12, 09:19 PM

opt for domain spells instead of natures bond and take the sub domain rage under destruction.. you will be able to rage for lvl rounds a day.. and at lvl 12+ you get to start picking up rage powers.

Unless I'm missing something, you could not take the Rage Domain with a Druid.

From PFSRD:

At 1st level, a druid forms a bond with nature. This bond can take one of two forms. The first is a close tie to the natural world, granting the druid one of the following cleric domains: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water, or Weather.

Chained Birds

2012-02-12, 09:58 PM

What's so bad about superstitious? The benefit is only present whilst raging, so the downsides equally vanish when not raging. So, simply buff the barbarian before the fight or before raging (like you should) and let her kill stuff until she gets tired of raging, and then give her heals once everyone is dead (enemy's side).

I know heals can be important during battle, but your cleric's actions would be better spent casting debuffs or magicing people to death. Same goes with buffs, just have the Barbarian wait a round before going RAGE to give her an Aid or Haste spell or something...

Curious

2012-02-12, 10:09 PM

Blyte

2012-02-12, 11:01 PM

Unless I'm missing something, you could not take the Rage Domain with a Druid.

From PFSRD:

it's down in the Druid archetypes section in the SRD, under "subdomains". I assume that it overrules that citation.

edit: at the very bottom of the paizo archetypes.

"FAQ/Errata
Can druids, inquisitors, and other classes with access to domains take subdomains?
Yes, as long as they follow the rules for subdomains. A character who does not worship a deity (such as some druids and paladins) may select any one subdomain appropriate to a domain available to his or her class.
[Source]"

further down it lists Rage under the Destruction domain, on the druid archetype link.

but evidently you can access inquisitions and other terrain and animal domains.. anger inquisition and the cave domain both seem pretty neato as well.

Krazzman

2012-02-13, 02:59 AM

The Druid thing is....awesome :D

At least for me, if she dislikes this druid variant, I'm probably going this way (with not taking Rage as Subdomain).

But why is Bullrush ineffective? Which Rage-powers are good? And is Punce really that good for someone that does not like to charge?

Anyway thanks so far, that's quite a fast input, I'll link her to this thread after her exam this morning. If you still got some awesome ideas feel free to reply further.

Chained Birds

2012-02-13, 10:00 AM

Rage Powers a usually better for a few reasons:

Want to be a Tripper, There's a Rage Power for that. Want to Bullrush some guy, There's a Rage Power for That. Oh, and they both deal damage to the opponent unlike the regular maneuvers, and don't provoke AoOs.

Pounce is awesome because it allows your barbarian to use all her given attacks regardless of whether she has to first run up to the enemy. Without it, she would only get 1 attack at the end of the charge leaving her open for the opponent's Full Round Attack at her. Might as well even the score with a Full Round Attack at the opponent (and potentially killing them outright) before they get the chance to do it to you.

I always liked the Supersticious Rage Power which grants you Barbarian an initial +2 to all saves vs spells, spell-like, and supernatural abilities. The bonus increase I believe every 4 lvls after Barbarian lvl 2 by +1, and save bonuses are always good. This is also the first step for making a pretty interesting anti-magic Barbarian who can Sunder spells with her mundane Axe (or other weapon of choice).
Downside: she must make saves against her ally's spells as well (Like cure spells and buffs) while she is raging; so be sure to buff before rage and heal after combat.

The other posters made some equally nice suggestions on other rage powers, and a general skim through the Rage Powers section on the PFsrd might inspire you on what she might like to have.

Engine

2012-02-13, 10:07 AM

it's down in the Druid archetypes section in the SRD, under "subdomains". I assume that it overrules that citation.

edit: at the very bottom of the paizo archetypes.

"FAQ/Errata
Can druids, inquisitors, and other classes with access to domains take subdomains?
Yes, as long as they follow the rules for subdomains. A character who does not worship a deity (such as some druids and paladins) may select any one subdomain appropriate to a domain available to his or her class.
[Source]"

further down it lists Rage under the Destruction domain, on the druid archetype link.

but evidently you can access inquisitions and other terrain and animal domains.. anger inquisition and the cave domain both seem pretty neato as well.

Hm.
Well, IMHO it doesn't make a sense. If you could choose any domain or subdomain as a Druid, why bother saying that the base class could choose just a few on the main page?

togapika

2012-02-13, 10:53 AM

Novawurmson

2012-02-13, 12:27 PM

You can't. Following the rules for subdomains means that you can take the appropriate subdomain IF you have access to the regular domain in the first place.
The druid in that example could take any subdomain based from the Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water, or Weather domains

This is correct.

If you wanted this to work, however, you could take a Druid archetype that grants the Destruction domain, such as Saurian Shaman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/saurian-shaman), and then apply the subdomain.

Cieyrin

2012-02-13, 12:32 PM

Unless I'm missing something, you could not take the Rage Domain with a Druid.

From PFSRD:

Hm.
Well, IMHO it doesn't make a sense. If you could choose any domain or subdomain as a Druid, why bother saying that the base class could choose just a few on the main page?

You can't pick Rage on a base Druid. You'd have to archetype to Blight Druid or Shaman of the Ape, Boar, Dragon or Saurian variety. Ape and Boar specifically say you can subdomain into Rage, Dragon, Saurian and Blight don't specify subdomains.

Semi-Ninja'd

Also, Shillelagh doesn't work on greatclubs, sorry to say. Club and Quarterstaff only. I know I've asked to have greatclubs included but that's houserule territory.

Blyte

2012-02-13, 02:53 PM

But why is Bullrush ineffective? Which Rage-powers are good? And is Punce really that good for someone that does not like to charge?

I opted to make an overrun barbarian in a game and he absolutely dominated.. I don't think bullrush would be as effective, but possibly. Pounce is also very effective but kinda a no brainer and approaching cookie cutter status imho.

----

also, ya I forgot for my shillaghli(spelling sorry) druid abomination I got the DM to allow for great clubs since they are basically just bigger clubs for cryin outloud.. or perhaps just use a huge sized club 2handed with the spell on it.. and instead take throw anything and improvised weapon mastery. instead of weapon focus and vital strike.. later take vital strike at lvl 11.

you will be doing 12d6+28 and have a +22 to hit, vital striking at lvl 11.. I had forgotten to factor in that shillaghli gives a +1 enhancement bonus.. but I reccommend dipping for 1 level of fighter at 11 to also get improved critical (improvised weapons) so you have a 17-20 x2 crit range.. unless you are really lookin forward to lvl 6 spells.

----

that totally makes sense now concerning the destruction school.. btw my druid had access to it since he was an ape shaman who did this same strat as either a large or huge sized dire ape. (no write up for huge, but my DM allowed me to just use the large template and increase it one step)

so how do the druids qualify for inquisitions?

inquisition link under druid archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/inquisitions/anger-inquisition)

say for instance the "anger inquisition", which is very similar to the rage sub domain (arguably better than).. under "Gorum" it says that some of his priests are druids.

Cieyrin

2012-02-13, 05:07 PM

Krazzman

2012-02-13, 05:57 PM

So ok,

that's some nice input, but I think we will go with the Cave domain either for her or for me (it just fits more to a dwarf), ask our dm about greatclub and shillelagh or quarterstaff (two-handed variant) and furthermore we'll play in faerun so no Gorum or something like that.

But back to the barbarian with pounce thing... it just is activated via a charge action, but somehow my GF started to hate charge as a combat move...maybe I'll get her to rethink her hate for it.

If we want to expand this topic which one has advantaged/disadvantages Dwarf Druid with Cave or Cleric (or the variant where you get only one domain) for a supportive melee.

Hope you can help us further, keep the income running.

Blyte

2012-02-13, 06:39 PM

I suggest making an overrun dwarf barb and take the relentless alternate dwarf racial feature for +2 with overruns. as you do not have to use overrun in conjunction with a charge, you can overrun with a move, hitting everyone you overrun along the way and then end your move with an attack. If done right it can net you more attacks than the pouncing barbarian with multiple foes.

bare in mind I normally do this with a human for extra feat and str, but a lvl 10 dwarf overrun-barb will look something like this...

feats-
1 power attack
3 combat reflexes
5 improved overrun
7 greater overrun
9 whatever you want (raging deathblow, improved initiative, vital strike, improved critical, extra rage power, etc...)

rage powers-
2 strength surge
4 overrun rage power
6 overrun rage power 2
8 auspicious mark
10 whatever you want (superstition, unexpected strike, reckless abandon, etc... and if you opted for extra rage power at lvl 9 you could take superstition then and one of the rage powers that it pre-reqs for at 10)

edit-
alternatively you could take
rage powers-
8 beast totem 1
9 beast totem 2 <-- via extra rage power feat
10 beast totem 3

and whenever you are able to overrun in conjunction with charge, you will be able to full attack... but auspicious mark is very nice to have when you fail an overrun roll by 1.

Blyte

2012-02-13, 06:58 PM

I would say the inquisition is only better in that you get Rage earlier, though, as the main text of inquisitions points out, you miss out on the bonus spells and spell slot you'd normally be granted, which is something to consider as a Druid. The Rage subdomain also gives you rage powers, which the Anger inquisition does not, so you can customize your rage a bit that way. You could also pick up Rage via Wild Stalker Ranger at 4th and start picking up Rage powers at 5th.

agreed, it is better in the early game, but at lvl 12+ when rage domain starts to net you rage powers, it becomes inferior. that free retaliatory attack anger gets once per day was marginally better than the domain spells+1st level domain power that rage affords you.

Cieyrin

2012-02-13, 08:11 PM

ask our dm about greatclub and shillelagh or quarterstaff (two-handed variant)

Don't have to ask about that particular bit, Shillelagh already works with that just fine. That's how most people use it unless they have some reason that they can't or won't use both hands on their weapon. Just because quarterstaves have the capability of being double weapons doesn't mean that you're required to use it as such, most people I know just hit with one end.

Krazzman

2012-02-14, 03:20 AM

Normally we either have the ruling we choose to only use the quarterstaff two handed instead of as a double weapon to get the 1d6+1.5xSTR-mod. (Sometimes we even increase it to 1d8).

Overrun seems interesting, however, when is the best time to use it? What about the ragepowers for it? Should she only overrun in Rage? What about Weaponry? Dwaraxe, Waraxe or more for hammer? Light Armor? Or archetypes?

My main concern is, I never actually build a barbarian in 3.5 and never thought about playing one in pathfinder...so helping is quite hard.

Hope you can further help me.

Cieyrin

2012-02-14, 12:57 PM

Normally we either have the ruling we choose to only use the quarterstaff two handed instead of as a double weapon to get the 1d6+1.5xSTR-mod. (Sometimes we even increase it to 1d8).

It's not a ruling, that's how it normally works, unless you upgrade to d8.

Overrun seems interesting, however, when is the best time to use it? What about the ragepowers for it? Should she only overrun in Rage? What about Weaponry? Dwaraxe, Waraxe or more for hammer? Light Armor? Or archetypes?

My main concern is, I never actually build a barbarian in 3.5 and never thought about playing one in pathfinder...so helping is quite hard.

Hope you can further help me.

Most of the time when I overrun, it's so I can get past the meatshields to cut the squishies behind them in twain or if you want to get to a target but somebody is in the way. You can overrun whenever, it's just better during a rage, due to associated rage powers.

Rage powers to consider: Overbearing Advance, Overbearing Onslaught, Strength Surge

Dwarven Waraxes are nice if you have a reason you want a one-hander, otherwise an Earthbreaker or Greataxe would be better for applying more damage from Strength and Power Attack.

As a dwarf, there's no reason to not go with the heaviest armor you're proficient with, as the main drawback of getting slowed by it never applies to you. Acrobatics isn't going to be a strong skill for a Dwarf, so the added penalty from heavier armor doesn't matter. The other skills affected, Climb and Swim, are boosted while raging from the Strength increase and can be boosted further by choosing the appropriate rage powers if it concerns you.

Archetype-wise, Armored Hulk, Drunken Brute, Invulnerable Rager, Scarred Rager, Superstitious and Totem Warrior all are good, especially Armored Hulk for further enhancing overrun and giving you better armor and Totem Warrior for removing a pointless restriction at no loss to you.

Krazzman

2012-02-14, 02:38 PM

Dwarven Waraxes are nice if you have a reason you want a one-hander, otherwise an Earthbreaker or Greataxe would be better for applying more damage from Strength and Power Attack.

Ok, a twohanded weapon should be it, sure. That's clear but she wanted to fight with a Bec de Corbin/Lucerne Hammer or other raventooth weapons... hammerhead on the one side, spike on the other. The weapon wielded by Boendal/Boindil in "the dwarfs" of Markus Heitz.

like this...
.
-ID
I
I
I

She is more tempted to Invulnerable Rager with Guarded life (only to life after her life). Armored Hulk is not to her likes...
Additionally I don't know if the Totem Warrior archetype does anything. Really just wtf does this thing?

Wagadodo

2012-02-14, 06:28 PM

For a Barbarian the only MUST HAVE feats that I can think of are Power Attack and Raging Vitality. I would get Raging Vitality as soon as possible that will jump her Con up by 2 pts while raging, and if the character goes into negatives you can keep raging so you don't lose those hitpoints so you automically die.

Blyte

2012-02-14, 06:47 PM

when should you overrun? all the time.

you take the rage powers overbearing advance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/overbearing-advance-ex) and overbearing onslaught (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/overbearing-onslaught-ex)

and you take "strength surge" and "auspicious mark" to manipulate your odds of overrunning foes.

these rage powers in conjunction with improved overrun and greater overrun make you the bane of any creature large sized or smaller.

You simply move over them and make your overrun rolls, if you beat them, you move past them, if you beat them by over 5 (which you will quite often) you knock them prone and get an AoO on them.

You want to use a big 2hander, to take advantage of all those AoOs, but I wouldn't opt for pole arms personally, unless they attack adjacent targets well.

I was overrunning large sized 6 legged aberrations with my overrun barb, and that is pretty hard to do, but I was able to pretty consistently.

it's basically like hopping around the battle field on a bladed pogo stick and when you movement is over, take your standard attack.. arguably after lvl 6 you don't need to keep pursuing barb levels and can then switch over to fighter for bonus feats. vital strike line or the cleave line both work well.. but if you stick to barb you can eventually get some great stuff like pounce and at 12 the awesome "come and get me."

Cieyrin

2012-02-14, 08:46 PM

Ok, a twohanded weapon should be it, sure. That's clear but she wanted to fight with a Bec de Corbin/Lucerne Hammer or other raventooth weapons... hammerhead on the one side, spike on the other. The weapon wielded by Boendal/Boindil in "the dwarfs" of Markus Heitz.

Those can work out just fine, a classic dwarven weapon of the 3.5 era was the Dwarven Warpike.

She is more tempted to Invulnerable Rager with Guarded life (only to life after her life). Armored Hulk is not to her likes...
Additionally I don't know if the Totem Warrior archetype does anything. Really just wtf does this thing?

Initially, Totem Warrior in the APG didn't do anything. It's been pointed out to me that now, as of Ultimate Combat, it allows you to have more than once chain of Totem powers. Since it doesn't replace any features, I don't know why any barbarian WOULDN'T be a Totem Warrior.

Krazzman

2012-02-15, 03:47 AM

Those can work out just fine, a classic dwarven weapon of the 3.5 era was the Dwarven Warpike.

Ok, but her main concern is...she doesn't like reach (most of the time we wing it away if we don't want to play on that ability but I wouldn't like to place my bets on it).

Else I'll ask our DM for a hombrewed weapon.

Initially, Totem Warrior in the APG didn't do anything. It's been pointed out to me that now, as of Ultimate Combat, it allows you to have more than once chain of Totem powers. Since it doesn't replace any features, I don't know why any barbarian WOULDN'T be a Totem Warrior.

So ok, this archetype doesn't give anything and doesn't take anything except you now can combine Totem Rage Powers?

I conclude so far:
Totem Invulnerable Rager Barbarian.
STR>CON>DEX>WIS>INT>CHA
Feats:
1 Power Attack
3 Combat Reflexes (is it really worthwhile? Could a Extra Rage power be better?)
5 Imp Overrun
7 Greater Overrun
9 Extra Rage Power

Rage Powers
2 Guarded Life (being stable when you otherwise would die? compels her playstyle)
3 (Strength Surge)
4 Overbearing Advance
6 Overbearing Onslaught
8 Auspicious Mark / Lesser Beast Totem
9 Strength Surge (Greater Guarded Life) / Beast Totem
10 Flesh Wound / Greater Beast Totem

Assuming a weak 18 Strength. And a Masterworked weapon.
To hit: 12 (weapon + 15)
To hit in Rage: 15 (weapon + 19)
CMB: 19?
CMB in Rage: 22? (Without powers since I'm AFB...)

Cieyrin

2012-02-15, 12:25 PM

Ok, but her main concern is...she doesn't like reach (most of the time we wing it away if we don't want to play on that ability but I wouldn't like to place my bets on it).

Else I'll ask our DM for a hombrewed weapon.

Use a Halberd? :smallconfused:

So ok, this archetype doesn't give anything and doesn't take anything except you now can combine Totem Rage Powers?

You can use more than one Totem Chain, so you could grab Beast and Dragon or Chaos, Hive and World Serpent or whatever combination you want.

I conclude so far:
Totem Invulnerable Rager Barbarian.
STR>CON>DEX>WIS>INT>CHA
Feats:
1 Power Attack
3 Combat Reflexes (is it really worthwhile? Could a Extra Rage power be better?)
5 Imp Overrun
7 Greater Overrun
9 Extra Rage Power

Rage Powers
2 Guarded Life (being stable when you otherwise would die? compels her playstyle)
3 (Strength Surge)
4 Overbearing Advance
6 Overbearing Onslaught
8 Auspicious Mark / Lesser Beast Totem
9 Strength Surge (Greater Guarded Life) / Beast Totem
10 Flesh Wound / Greater Beast Totem

Assuming a weak 18 Strength. And a Masterworked weapon.
To hit: 12 (weapon + 15)
To hit in Rage: 15 (weapon + 19)
CMB: 19?
CMB in Rage: 22? (Without powers since I'm AFB...)

If you don't want reach, you probably don't really care about taking more than one Attack of Opportunity a round, so your 3rd level feat would be better served by something like Extra Rage Power or Furious Focus. Otherwise, looking good.