What are the likely implications of this? (Arcane and Divine magic issue)

[Roxxy]

In my homebrew campaign setting, I'm making some changes to how arcane and divine magic has historically interacted.

First off, the casting times listed for arcane magic in the rulebooks are due to recent innovations in the study of magic. Through most of history, the casting times for arcane spells were far longer. Divine spells, however, have always used the listed casting times.

Secondly, the deities cannot take away divine powers once they have been granted, even if they want to. Divine law forbids it, among other things such as divine intervention and speaking directly to a mortal. Divine powers can, however, be warped by the emotions present in one's soul. This means that, while a Paladin can never lose her powers no matter how evil she becomes, her powers can change to reflect her evilness, slowly turning her into an Anti-Paladin. The same applies to other divine casters. This does not mean that there are no penalties for violating the tenants of one's faith, it just means that they are not mechanical penalties. For example, though a fallen Paladin cannot lose her powers no matter what she does, other Paladins will most likely hear of her deeds at some point, and they will probably attempt to deal with her.

Third, arcane casters have historically not been very well favored at all. Arcane magic has been distrusted, and it's practitioners usually punished, often with execution. Only recently has it been acceptable to practice the arcane arts.

Fourth, the deities used to hand out divine powers to pretty much anyone who could promise to behave without crossing their fingers. This was do to major theological wars raging across the world. People were needed to fight them. With so many divine casters and so few arcane casters, this put the churches at the head of almost all governments and gave religion lot of power. Unfortunately, handing out divine power to so many people meant giving it to many individuals who wished to abuse it. There were far more fallen Paladins and corrupt Clerics than there were good intentioned ones. These powers couldn't be taken away, so the churches quickly became less than admirable institutions. Eventually the deities realized that handing out so much irrevocable power was a bad idea, and started being a lot more careful about who they gave such power to. As a result of this, the churches' power and influence plummeted once all the divine casters started dying from violence and natural causes. The ramifications of this massive drop in church power (as well as an arcane and technological renaissance/industrial revolution) are a big theme of the campaign setting.

Fifth, the increased casting time for arcane magic has never applied to elves. They've always used the times listed in the rulebooks. Only recently have other races caught up. Elves realized how much of a boon this was, and disguised arcane magic as divine magic, claimed it was from the deities, and used this "divine blessing" as an excuse to become the most powerful race in the world, ruling over all others except the dwarves (who were geographically isolated, skilled at defensive warfare, and suicidally stubborn to the point where it was more beneficial to let them rule themselves and establish trade partnerships with them than it was to conquer them). They also intentionally demonized and persecuted any arcane casters who were revealed in order to discourage others from studying arcane magic and becoming as good as elves, which would threaten their power, which is precisely what ended up happening after the church fell, so the elves had reason to be worried. The elves have now lost much of the power and influence they once had.

The fall of the churches happened about 150 years past, with the fall of the elves a couple decades after. Elves are about as long lived as any other race. There was originally a lot of hatred of the elves after their fall, but they are sort of like Germany after WW2. Yea, they did a lot of horrid things and people hated them for it, but it's been long enough since that most don't blame the elves or actively hate them (though there are still some residual feelings floating around that could flame up), especially since, aside from a few racist organizations, the elves have been actively trying to distance themselves from what they did.

I think these ideas for the campaign setting make sense, and I have some basic ideas for how they effect the world's culture, but I'd like to see it through other eyes. Do these points make sense? What questions do they bring up?

[nyarlathotep]

First big question you need to answer is do natural born casters, such as sorcerers exist? If they do then did they also used to have long casting times? If the did how did the recent developments allow them to speed up? If they were always that fast how did they affect history.

[Roxxy]

First big question you need to answer is do natural born casters, such as sorcerers exist? If they do then did they also used to have long casting times? If the did how did the recent developments allow them to speed up? If they were always that fast how did they affect history.Spontaneous casters have never suffered the extended casting times, but the elves were VERY good at rooting out non-elven ones and getting them killed as witches. Therefore they had little effect on history, as they were mostly treated the same as prepared arcane casters, which is to say that they either lived in hiding or were killed. The fall of the old order over a century ago was, of course, a lifesaver for them, as they aren't actively hunted down any more.

[nyarlathotep]

This campaign does open up a lot of interesting options. Another thing to consider is the nature of creatures that have lived long enough to have experienced the religious wars and persecution first hand.

Suppose an undead arcanist (likely a lich) who had been hunted and seen his colleagues killed by the church and elves. After going into isolation for hundreds of years to plot his revenge how likely is he to just let bygones be bygones? Will the players really be able to argue that he is not justified hunting the elvish inquisitors who thanks to their 700 year life spans are still alive? What if he then tells them of a time he saw a friend tortured to death by boiling oil for refusing to turn over other wizards?

What about the angels and demons who were frontline soldiers in the holy wars. They were summoned hundreds if not thousands of times in order to kill their gods enemies. "Why did the wars stop? Are you saying that all my comrades who fought for you died for nothing? The enemy still lives and yet you say the war is over." Seems like ground is ripe for many rogue outsiders.

What about those species who were as a whole arcane capable? Were they persecuted just the same? If so what sort of comprises did they have to make to survive. Doppelgangers who have to remain in human form at all times to avoid execution?

What about a race of creatures capable of emitting powerful arcane magic rays from their eyes? A world that violently hates them gradually drives them to believe that all that is not them is evil and must be destroyed. Their xenophobia increases until even others of the same race can be seen as the enemy. These creatures now known as beholders cannot be told "we're not persecuting arcanists anymore" and be expected to go back to the peaceful race they once were.

[Roxxy]

This campaign does open up a lot of interesting options. Another thing to consider is the nature of creatures that have lived long enough to have experienced the religious wars and persecution first hand.Oh, yes. I have many plans for this.


Suppose an undead arcanist (likely a lich) who had been hunted and seen his colleagues killed by the church and elves. After going into isolation for hundreds of years to plot his revenge how likely is he to just let bygones be bygones? Will the players really be able to argue that he is not justified hunting the elvish inquisitors who thanks to their 700 year life spans are still alive? What if he then tells them of a time he saw a friend tortured to death by boiling oil for refusing to turn over other wizards?Most elves don't live much past about 120 in this world, so most from the old order have passed on, but this is still an interesting story hook. Just because most of the elves are dead doesn't mean everyone is going to forgive everyone, even if most do. This would be especially true of a hundreds year old lich, who probably isn't willing to trust elves. Plus, some of those from the old order are still around thanks to magic increasing their lifespans past what would be natural...


What about the angels and demons who were frontline soldiers in the holy wars. They were summoned hundreds if not thousands of times in order to kill their gods enemies. "Why did the wars stop? Are you saying that all my comrades who fought for you died for nothing? The enemy still lives and yet you say the war is over." Seems like ground is ripe for many rogue outsiders.Oh, yes. I love this.


What about those species who were as a whole arcane capable? Were they persecuted just the same? If so what sort of comprises did they have to make to survive. Doppelgangers who have to remain in human form at all times to avoid execution?More good story hooks here, especially with the longer lived ones.


What about a race of creatures capable of emitting powerful arcane magic rays from their eyes? A world that violently hates them gradually drives them to believe that all that is not them is evil and must be destroyed. Their xenophobia increases until even others of the same race can be seen as the enemy. These creatures now known as beholders cannot be told "we're not persecuting arcanists anymore" and be expected to go back to the peaceful race they once were.It sounds good, but I don't have beholders. I play Pathfinder, which lacks them over IP issues. However, I could do something like this with the medusa.

[nyarlathotep]

It sounds good, but I don't have beholders. I play Pathfinder, which lacks them over IP issues. However, I could do something like this with the medusa.

Yeah ti doesn't have to be beholders but just some race that has arcane abilities and is famed for their xenophobia.

[Roxxy]

What I really like is your idea about summoned outsider warriors left over after the end of large scale religious conflict. That is a very, very cool idea.

[Omeganaut]

After the churches and the elves fell from power, there will obviously be a power vacuum, probably whomever led the defeat of the elves, or at least their methods. Since the Elves are largely casters, I'd say the remnants of the church probably defeated them, redeeming themselves in the eyes of the people, leading to renewed faith in the churches and gods. However, now that the gods aren't fighting each other through direct divine blessings, they have turned to machinations, and many who hear their voice go mad and try to destroy all. Churches claim to be trying to solve the problem, but in reality are only trying to stop the plans of another god.

Also, now that the arcanists are free, I'd say that there is a mages guild that is taking over power. After all, arcane casters have a lot of power. Those that were in hiding were the early leaders, but there is currently a power struggle between the older generations and the newer graduates who have never known the oppression of the elves. As a result, elven participation is highly controversial for the Society for the Protection of Arcane Casting, or the S.P.A.C., who have been known to resist elvish participation in world politics in the past.