Changing Paladin/Ranger Casting

[Alabenson]

I've been considering altering casting for paladins and rangers to work like bardic casting, i.e. spontaneous, levels 0-6. I was wondering 1) how significant an increase in power this would be (I'd like to boost them to Tier 3 if possible) and 2) what spells would make good inclusions for level 5 and 6 paladin and ranger spells.

[Novawurmson]

1. That would pretty much bump them to tier 3.
2. Any spells that they normally have + Cleric/Druid spells levels 0-6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. There's a feat in Champions of Valor called Sword of the Arcane Order, which allows a character to prepare Wizard spells from a spellbook in his Paladin and/or Ranger spell slots. You can also get the feat Magical Training in PGtF to get a spellbook and the ability to learn and scribe Wizard spells into it. Two feats give a Paladin and Ranger the ability to cast Wizard spells of any level they have spell slots for.

2. There's another feat called Battle Blessing in Complete Champion, which allows a Paladin to cast all of his spells as though Quickened at no additional cost. Plus he can get DMM: Persist and use it with any spell he casts via Sword of the Arcane Order.

I'd put them at a high Tier 3, barely shy of Tier 2. For 0- 5th- and 6th-level spells, check the Cleric list for Paladin choices and the Druid list for Ranger spells. They'll probably just fill them up with Greater Mirror Image, Draconic Polymorph, and Freezing Fog if they know what's good for them, though.

[Novawurmson]

Good call. I was mentally assuming that this was in place of Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order. I would recommend banning or nerfing those feats if you want them casting Divine spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

1. There's a feat in Champions of Valor called Sword of the Arcane Order, which allows a character to prepare Wizard spells from a spellbook in his Paladin and/or Ranger spell slots. You can also get the feat Magical Training in PGtF to get a spellbook and the ability to learn and scribe Wizard spells into it. Two feats give a Paladin and Ranger the ability to cast Wizard spells of any level they have spell slots for.

2. There's another feat called Battle Blessing in Complete Champion, which allows a Paladin to cast all of his spells as though Quickened at no additional cost. Plus he can get DMM: Persist and use it with any spell he casts via Sword of the Arcane Order.

Doesn't work. The spells are still wizard spells, not paladin or ranger spells. You can already DMM: Persist stuff like Draconic Might.


Make sure to give them full caster levels.

[Alabenson]

Good call. I was mentally assuming that this was in place of Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order. I would recommend banning or nerfing those feats if you want them casting Divine spells.

I admit I hadn't thought of it, but I probably would ban those feats if I put this change into effect. I generally don't like banning things, but these feats would become far too powerful.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I admit I hadn't thought of it, but I probably would ban those feats if I put this change into effect. I generally don't like banning things, but these feats would become far too powerful.

You could make it so that Battle Blessing still works, it just only works on spells in the original paladin spell list (so no swift action Summon Monster).

[Alabenson]

You could make it so that Battle Blessing still works, it just only works on spells in the original paladin spell list (so no swift action Summon Monster).

What about making it only work with abjuration or transmutation spells, i.e. buff spells? How do you think that would work?

[Ernir]

5th level Paladin Spells: Atonement, Commune, Disrupting Weapon, Righteous Might, Plane Shift, True Seeing.
6th level Paladn Spells: Banishment, Heal, Heroes' Feast, a version of Personal Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPersonal.htm), maybe even Holy Word/Dictum (beware of Archivists).

Also, don't forget "greater" versions of the spells they already have, like Greater Dispel Magic, the cure spells, and the animal buffs.

And fix their CL progression.

What about making it only work with abjuration or transmutation spells, i.e. buff spells? How do you think that would work?
Nah, just ban the damn feat.

[Treblain]

You could make it so that Battle Blessing still works, it just only works on spells in the original paladin spell list (so no swift action Summon Monster).

It's still more powerful, because you get the 1-4 spells sooner. One of the reasons paladin spellcasting is ineffective is because you get spells meant for low level clerics at high levels, and casting is quadratic, so they're noticeably weaker. Being able to cast as a swift action whenever you want takes away the meaningfulness of the choice of whether a paladin should fight or cast spells; it's like Natural Spell but worse.

Battle Blessing needs to be banned or given limited uses for this. So does Sword of the Arcane Order, though I'd personally never allow that feat in the first place.

[Alabenson]

5th level Paladin Spells: Atonement, Commune, Disrupting Weapon, Righteous Might, Plane Shift, True Seeing.
6th level Paladn Spells: Banishment, Heal, Heroes' Feast, a version of Personal Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPersonal.htm), maybe even Holy Word/Dictum (beware of Archivists).

Also, don't forget "greater" versions of the spells they already have, like Greater Dispel Magic, the cure spells, and the animal buffs.

And fix their CL progression.

Nah, just ban the damn feat.

Great spell recomendations, though I'd give them Holy Aura/Shield of Law before Holy Word/Dictum (granted they're a level higher, but I'd rather give them defensive spells than offensive ones).
Also, fixing CL progression was going to be part of the "giving them bardic casting progression" concept.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give them Spellcraft and Concentration as class skills.

You could allow Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) and give them certain music-specific spells like Inspirational Boost.




Doesn't work. The spells are still wizard spells, not paladin or ranger spells. You can already DMM: Persist stuff like Draconic Might.

They're cast from your Paladin or Ranger spell slots, and are considered Paladin or Ranger spells for that casting. If a character goes Paladin 4/ Cleric 16 with Battle Blessing, spells prepared in his Cleric spell slots will not be cast as a swift action even if they happen to appear on the Paladin spell list. Spells cast from X class's spell slots are X class's spells unless the ability which permits you to cast spells from a different list specifically says so. Sword of the Arcane Order gives no such specification, only that there's a minimum Int score to prepare and cast those spells, so they're still cast as divine spells, and they're still cast as Paladin or Ranger spells.

Do note however that Battle Blessing only works on spells with a normal casting time of a standard action, so there wouldn't be any Swift Summons without Rapid Spell or similar effort.

[gorfnab]

Mystic Ranger from Dragon #336 has a listing for 5th level ranger spells.

[Coidzor]

Could probably draw some inspiration from what Pathfinder did with the Inquisitor's spell list as well, since they're a sort of mix between fighty, skillful, and casty to varying degrees.