Wererat Monk

[Da'Shain]

So I just finished a session, and my monk is now a Wererat (and also has been inducted into a society of "timeless" Wererat assassins, but let that part slide). I wasn't totally sure where to go with only the monk part; now I feel like I have a few more options opened up, and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on where to go and what kind of tactics to focus on.

Here he is:
Jeress, Male Human/Wererat Monk 2/Dire Rat 1STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 11, WIS 20, CHA 10
HP: 23, AC: 20 (Touch 18, Flat-Footed 17), Speed: 30, Init: +3
Fort 6, Ref 8, Will 12
Special Qualities: Scent, Low-Light Vision

BAB +2
Attacks: Unarmed +7 (1d6+5), Flurry of Blows +5/+5 (1d6+5)
Attack Options: Power Attack, Stunning Fist 2/day (DC 16)
Special Abilities: Alternate Form (Wererat), Lycanthropic Empathy (Rats), Curse of Lycanthropy

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Power Attack, Zen Combat (custom, add WIS to attack and damage with unarmed strikes), Stunning Fist (Monk), Combat Reflexes (Monk), Weapon Finesse (Wererat), Iron Will (Wererat), yet to be determined feat
Skills: Climb +1 (+11 when shifted, may use DEX bonus in place of STR when shapeshifted), Control Shape +11, Stealth (custom, Hide/Move Silently merged) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +2, Listen +7, Sense Motive +10, Spot +7, Swim +9 (+8 from Wererat, may use DEX bonus in place of STR when shapeshifted), Tumble +8

Alternate Form: Direrat form and Hybrid Rat form (+2 CON, +6 DEX). Gains a damage die (from 1d6 to 1d8) above Unarmed Strike damage when using claws in Hybrid form (custom).

So, as you can see, my DM's been pretty nice to me in terms of custom stuff (the feat, the claws, and upping Monk to have full BAB); I didn't even ask for any of it! For classes and PrC's, pretty much anything in the Completes is allowed barring Psionics (core or not), with other things requiring DM's approval.

For my 3rd level feat, I'm waffling something fierce; I'm not sure whether to get Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Pain Touch, or possibly Improved Grapple. And of course I don't know every feat out there, so I could be missing something far better.

In terms of character direction, I feel like I have a fair amount of options. On the one hand, my WIS kinda screams out for me to try and go Sacred Fist; on the other, I could try and go non-caster and instead become a Warshaper.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for perusing!

[hex0]

3rd feat: Improved Multiattack. You can Unarmed Strike (and iteratives, later on_, Claw, Claw, Bite to your hearts content!

And, yes. Be a warshaper.

[LeshLush]

I have no idea about your feat choices, but I did want to say how awesome it is that you're now essentially Master Splinter.

[Da'Shain]

Are you sure you can Multiattack with natural weapons at the same time you flurry/use iteratives? Seems like it might be one of those things that doesn't work for w/e reason. Plus I don't want to focus too much on rat form, if possible, as I'd like to be useful while in my normal form, too (seeing as ratmen aren't exactly common in this game).

Heh, I know, I spent a lot of the session calling the guy who inducted me Master Splinter. Started to get on the DM's nerves :smalltongue:

[Manateee]

Are you sure you can Multiattack with natural weapons at the same time you flurry...
No. (Bites aren't Monk weapons)

.../use iteratives?
Yes.

[Feytalist]

You're going to want Superior Unarmed Strike as soon as you can (prerequisites are IUS and BAB +3). It's in the Tome of Battle, if that's in.

Stunning Fist is good. If nothing else, you can use it to fuel feats like Iron Fist and Fiery Fist later on.

[Da'Shain]

Manateee, so once I get iterative attacks from higher BAB, I can do those iterative attacks in addition to using my natural weapons? Or I can use my natural weapons during those iterative attacks? Not clear on how it works.

I might be able to talk my DM into Superior Unarmed Strike, but I know for a fact that ToB classes, at least, were not allowed at character creation, so he might not be amenable to that.

So should I focus on boosting Stunning Fist? I'm not totally sure what kinds of foes we'll be facing, but the world is supposed to be post-Zombie-Apocalypse and I figure undead will be at least a prominent foe if not the focus of the campaign. That's why I'm not sure about it.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, Warshaper is the obvious choice.

If your DM is willing to wave the pre-requisites (Outsider type and some cruddy feats), I think that the Mortal Hunter from the Book of Vile Darkness would be perfect for you. It grants the ability to Polymorph, your Wisdom bonus to Saves vs. Spells, and +1 effective size for your natural attacks. Only down side is that it also has a few Cha based abilities - but your DM is nice - so he might let you move them onto Wis.

In keeping with the shifting theme, you might also want to look at getting access to Alter Self, either via a wand, spells, or a PrC like Ninja Spy (Oriental Adventures), Tattooed Monk, Slime Lord (Player's Guide to Faerun), or anything with Alter Self on it's spell list (like Assassin). Access to Alter Self gives you a lot of options (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0), such as +1 size, flight, burrow, various Skill bonuses, and more natural attacks, without being as broken as Polymorph or Wildshape. And you would retain your Lycanthrope template and abilities.

If you're looking to get the most out of your Wisdom,

[Urpriest]

Here's how natural attacks and iterative attacks work:

Every character that has BAB has iterative attacks, one for each 5 points of BAB as usual. You can make these attacks with a manufactured weapon or an unarmed strike, but not a natural weapon. Things like Two-Weapon-Fighting and Flurry add additional attacks in these (their penalty applies to all attacks made in the round, however).

If you have natural weapons, each weapon is its own attack. A weapon can be either primary or secondary. A secondary weapon takes -5 on attack rolls (less with Multiattack) and deals half Str damage. While some of your natural weapons are by default primary, all primary weapons become secondary weapons when you use your iterative attacks. For example, if you have a bite and a sword, Str 18 and BAB +6, you can attack with the bite at +10 or the sword at +10/+5 and the bite at +5.

Flurry says you can't use non-monk weapons as part of it. Whether this means you can't use them for the extra attack or you can't use them for any attack in the full attack is contested, best to ask your DM.

You might be confused about other aspects of monsters. If so, the guide in my sig may be helpful.

[Keld Denar]

My guide to natural weapons is linked in Ur-Priest's guide. Basically, what Ur-Priest said is true. My guide goes into pretty good detail on this thing.

The thing to remember is that UASs don't occupy a limb. You can UAS with any part of your body. That means that your UAS doesn't interfere with your ability to claw or bite someone, unlike how holding a sword or dagger would.

[Da'Shain]

Huh. I did not know natural attacks worked like that. Thanks for the detailed guides! So if a Rakshasa, say, has a sword in one hand and his other is empty, he can make normal iterative attacks, plus one claw attack from the free hand?

I was considering Tatooed Monk as well, and I didn't even remember the alter self tattoo. So many options ... i'm wondering what will be best for the upcoming levels, though, since I doubt we'll be reaching much past level 15, if that. I could be wrong though.

[Keld Denar]

Huh. I did not know natural attacks worked like that. Thanks for the detailed guides! So if a Rakshasa, say, has a sword in one hand and his other is empty, he can make normal iterative attacks, plus one claw attack from the free hand?

Correct. And that attack would be made at -5 from highest attack bonus (-2 with the Multiattack feat), and it would receive only 1/2 +Str to damage, since it would be classified as a Secondary Natural Attack (due to the presence of an iterative weapon: the longsword).

[Da'Shain]

That's pretty awesome; I don't think that's how my DM thinks it works though. If I point this out and he agrees, he'll likely forego the improved unarmed damage die while in Hybrid form. Is that worth it?

[Keld Denar]

Depends. Do you have any +damage? It looks like you get +Wisdom to damage from a custom feat. That's +5 damage per hit, assuming you would get that on your claw/bite attacks. Add that to any other damage you might have, and compare that to how much extra damage your DM gave you. If (#attacks * extra damage from DM) < (3 * bonus damage), then you are probably better off with the extra attacks to take advantage of all of that extra damage. This is especially the case if you take Multiattack to negate part of the -5 penalty that secondary natural attacks suffer.

Example, assuming you claws/bite damage do say...1d4 base +5, that's ~7.5 damage per hit. 3 hits is 22.5 damage. If you normally flurry and get 3 hits (2 base + flurry), and your DM gives you +1d6 damage for using your claws the way you described, you are only getting +3.5*3 or 10.5 extra damage. That means that you'll be doing about 12* points of extra damage per round doing it the "right" way with the 3 extra attacks (claw/claw/bite) vs doing it your DM's way with bonus damage per hit.

*neglecting inaccuracy due to high ACs and damage negation due to uncounterable DR.

EDIT: Damage disparity increases when other sources of +damage are added in. Things like Fiery Fists, Sneak Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Magic Weapon/Fang spells, etc further increase the difference between fewer and more attacks/round.

[hex0]

That's pretty awesome; I don't think that's how my DM thinks it works though. If I point this out and he agrees, he'll likely forego the improved unarmed damage die while in Hybrid form. Is that worth it?

You can ALWAYS use unarmed attacks with ANY routine. Headbutts, etc. FTW.

[Da'Shain]

Depends. Do you have any +damage? It looks like you get +Wisdom to damage from a custom feat. That's +5 damage per hit, assuming you would get that on your claw/bite attacks. Add that to any other damage you might have, and compare that to how much extra damage your DM gave you. If (#attacks * extra damage from DM) < (3 * bonus damage), then you are probably better off with the extra attacks to take advantage of all of that extra damage. This is especially the case if you take Multiattack to negate part of the -5 penalty that secondary natural attacks suffer.

Example, assuming you claws/bite damage do say...1d4 base +5, that's ~7.5 damage per hit. 3 hits is 22.5 damage. If you normally flurry and get 3 hits (2 base + flurry), and your DM gives you +1d6 damage for using your claws the way you described, you are only getting +3.5*3 or 10.5 extra damage. That means that you'll be doing about 12* points of extra damage per round doing it the "right" way with the 3 extra attacks (claw/claw/bite) vs doing it your DM's way with bonus damage per hit.

*neglecting inaccuracy due to high ACs and damage negation due to uncounterable DR.

EDIT: Damage disparity increases when other sources of +damage are added in. Things like Fiery Fists, Sneak Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Magic Weapon/Fang spells, etc further increase the difference between fewer and more attacks/round.I'm afraid the feat for +WIS to attack/damage is only for unarmed attacks, specifically, so I wouldn't be getting that much to them. I did get Weapon Finesse for free from Wererat, but I would still only have a bonus of 1 at most to damage with my natural weapons. I think it might still be worth it (as the difference between 1d6 and 1d8 is pretty much 1 extra damage on average, and the addition of three more attacks, even at a decreased attack bonus, I'm pretty sure would raise the average more than 1).


I am aware that unarmed attacks can use pretty much any part of the body; the session before I was fighting a guy with only kick and headbutts while protecting a baby in my arms from his axe, haha. The thing I was not aware of was about iterative and natural attacks being able to be made on the same turn, as part of the same full attack. Which fact I don't think my DM is aware of, either, so I was wondering whether to point it out or not. I think I will, though, and see what he says.

So for PrC's, Warshaper, Sacred Fist and Tattooed Monk are all on the table right now; I'm not really seeing anything else too useful (Fist of the Forest of course looks awesome, but my DM would most definitely enforce the RP restrictions and those are pretty dang stringent).

And Multiattack is now in the running for my 3rd feat ... so many choices! I might save that for later, though, when I don't possibly have to worry about PrC requirements.

[Red_Dog]

My guide to natural weapons is linked in Ur-Priest's guide. Basically, what Ur-Priest said is true. My guide goes into pretty good detail on this thing.

The thing to remember is that UASs don't occupy a limb. You can UAS with any part of your body. That means that your UAS doesn't interfere with your ability to claw or bite someone, unlike how holding a sword or dagger would.

To Keld Denar if you are correct, than that's actually pretty wicked. Combining punches with flying elbows and knees & etc. Lycan Monk suddenly becomes viable option.

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And as long as we are talking about Throwing ungodly amounts of natural and unarmed attacks... DIP SOUL EATER 1 is THE answer for most monster-esk classes.

Technically speaking you will still be a humanoid[or am I wrong, are you a full on Shapechanger after contracting Lyconthropy?], but you will have a subtype Shapechanger for sure, maybe your DM will let you in based on this(you will also need to burn two feats and do a potential side-quest as the process of becoming Soul Eater is not described just like lichdom, but it is specified that some creatures CAN volunteer]. If you can & want to dip Soul Eater 1 than suddenly all those attacks that didn't seem to dangerous are all now suddenly bestow a negative level per hit! ^^


Hope this helps ^^
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And Keld Denar, that's pretty clever, I need to think this one over for my own builds now ^^

[Urpriest]

Be aware that arguably Soul Eater can only deal a negative level on a Standard Action touch attack, since that's the default action for Supernatural Abilities. It's probably not what's intended, but it's how the rules play out.