Non core game

[monotone]

I'm curious if anyone has tried a 100% non-core game. Is there any balance if all the classes, races and spells from the SRD are not allowed? I am tempted to try it, but am concerned that it would flop.
The two big sticking points in my mind are:
1) Lack of effective turning and spell support making undead vastly more deadly.
2) Effective range characters will be tough to build. Monsters that excel at range combat will be lethal until mid to high levels.

I am not terribly concerned about healing, parties find a way to get it or do without.
What else did I miss? Is this viable and worth fleshing out more or should I scrap it now and move on to other concepts.
Thanks for your input.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Perfectly viable. Lack of Turn doesn't make undead much more deadly. Warblade, factotum, favored soul, and psion is a highly capable party, among others.

[skycycle blues]

Perfectly viable. Lack of Turn doesn't make undead much more deadly. Warblade, factotum, favored soul, and psion is a highly capable party, among others.

Psion is in the SRD.

[onemorelurker]

You'll have to be wary of prereqs. Lots of noncore feats and PrCs require core prereqs, which takes them off the table in a game like this. I'd handle it on a case-by-case basis, mostly switching them out for noncore options.

[monotone]

Perfectly viable. Lack of Turn doesn't make undead much more deadly. Warblade, factotum, favored soul, and psion is a highly capable party, among others.

Does this still work if you have no psion and the favored soul cannot cast core spells?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Psion is in the SRD.

SRD isn't core. PHB + DMG + MM is core. :smallconfused:

Edit: As for the other question, the Vigor line is fine.

Okay, it appears I missed that by core you meant SRD. Without the psion, it's still fine, there's still warmage.

[monotone]

You'll have to be wary of prereqs. Lots of noncore feats and PrCs require core prereqs, which takes them off the table in a game like this. I'd handle it on a case-by-case basis, mostly switching them out for noncore options.

My though would be to allow core feats for just this reason.

[Hashmir]

You'll have to be wary of prereqs. Lots of noncore feats and PrCs require core prereqs, which takes them off the table in a game like this. I'd handle it on a case-by-case basis, mostly switching them out for noncore options.

That's a good point, in terms of practicality.

In terms of what-the-balls-how-far-can-we-push-this, though, what if we really didn't allow core feats, making the PrCs that require them simply unavailable?

[Loki_42]

I had a similar idea myself, but mine was only subsystems, no casting or mundane. I'm still seeing if my group would be up for playing that, but I think it would be fun.

And I agree that a non-core game would be interesting, and probably cut out a lot of imbalance, seeing as how a lot of classes from the tier extremes would be removed.

[Rubik]

What about non-core options that grant core options? Classes with core spells on their spell lists, and getting Iron Will from a magical location?

[Tr011]

You can't really play a regular caster, because you don't have the basic spells. So Factotum is nerfed too.

You'd have to go like Swordsage, Warblade, Truenamer (optimize ur truenaming and it's K) and Binder. Or go Archivist, they are so OP, they can handle anything even without core spells.

[Rubik]

You can't really play a regular caster, because you don't have the basic spells. So Factotum is nerfed too.

You'd have to go like Swordsage, Warblade, Truenamer (optimize ur truenaming and it's K) and Binder. Or go Archivist, they are so OP, they can handle anything even without core spells.Truenamer would be even worse, since several optimization options are gone (Skill Focus, masterwork tools).

I assume you won't allow armor or weapons, including unarmed strikes or natural weaponry?

No grapples or standard/full attacks?

No saving throws allowed?

[Flickerdart]

Effective range nothing. Grab any old caster, delve into the awesomeness of the Spell Compendium and you are now as good as ever at ranged murderkilling.

If all SRD content is forbidden, the disappearance of Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting mean that melee is now either Totemists pouncing on things or ToB. Mounted combat is now impossible, as is tripping. Making more than one AoO per round is no longer a thing. Crafting can't be done.

[Namfuak]

Would you be allowed to take core classes so long as they were using non-core ACFs to switch all their features (I bet you could do this with Ranger)? Would feats from earlier books, like Complete books, that later were updated for SRD be available in their older form?

Also, remember that you would not be able to use a lot of basic weapons, including unarmed strikes. TWF would be totally unusable as well, and no power attack, so melee fighters of any kind are going to be shafted hard.

[erikun]

I would assume that Factotum, binding, Tome of Battle, and Spell Compendium would work out just fine. I'm assuming that the game basics from core, such as skills and combat rules, would still be intact; it would be a very strange D&D game if you threw out levels and d20 rolls.

[Akto]

quickly thinking about this i think if i was to run a game like this, i would say Chapter 4, 5 and 7(skills, feats and Equipment) in the PHB is allowed and parts of chapter 7 (Magic Items) in DMG is allowed aslong as DM is asked

[monotone]

Thanks for all the replies. Let me address some points that have been raised.
1) It was never my intent to disallow core feats, skills or equipment I consider them all integral to a 3.5 game.
2) Items that copied SRD spells would be relics from an ancient past and would function but not be able to be recreated. In addition, they would not be common treasure and would only occur in mouldering cities from a collapsed extravagant civilization.
3) Abilities that grant spells from the SRD would be allowed, but items could not be made from these powers.
4) Certain classes (Warmage I'm looking at you) would be allowed access to core spells to function. However, those which can pick around core will be forced to do so.

I still think undead would be lethal without turning, deathward and the restoration line of spells. But from what people are saying this might be worth fleshing out some more.
Please keep the feedback coming, you are giving me lots to think about.

[Zaq]

I'm pretty sure my current group is just like this. I think we use a handful of Core spells, but none of us are Core races or classes, and none of us are extremely magical. Works just fine.

[FMArthur]

Noncore games can have nearly everything you need in a small number of sources.

ToB has melee covered pretty soundly by itself.

I instantly turn to psionics when looking for a replacement for standard casters, but the Life Mantle still isn't enough for Ardent to be anything more than a backup healer, and Soulknife, Lurk, Divine Mind and Erudite all have balance problems. Nonetheless, with Ardent, Psion, Psywar, Psychic Rogue and Wilder you cover a lot of ground.

Loathe as I am to introduce 'standard' casters in a game avoiding core, Favored Soul, Healers and Archivists are about your only options for true healers, and they probably still need core spells for it. Crusaders, Binders, Ardents and others can take care of HP damage decently, but for the full range of recouperative effects beyond that I'm pretty sure they can't manage it too well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Truenamer would be even worse, since several optimization options are gone (Skill Focus, masterwork tools).

I assume you won't allow armor or weapons, including unarmed strikes or natural weaponry?

No grapples or standard/full attacks?

No saving throws allowed?

You're thinking too small.

No basic system.

[deuxhero]

No +1 (and thus no special abilities either) magic weapons and armor pretty much means melee, even with ToB is unplayable past the first few levels.

[monotone]

No +1 (and thus no special abilities either) magic weapons and armor pretty much means melee, even with ToB is unplayable past the first few levels.

There are multiple way to make a weapon overcome DR outside of the SRD if that is what you are worrying about.

[Hiro Protagonest]

There are multiple way to make a weapon overcome DR outside of the SRD if that is what you are worrying about.

The +X weapon enhancement and Belt of Giant Strength are absolutely necessary to keep your attack levels decent.

[monotone]

The +X weapon enhancement and Belt of Giant Strength are absolutely necessary to keep your attack levels decent.

Is this still true if opponents were not all wearing rings of protection, amulets of NA and magic armor? Stacking buffs from different sources is so common on both offense and defense that big picture I'm not sure that it does not all cancel out.
Maybe its groupthink, but in most games I play melee characters will have a ring +1, amulet +1, weapon +1 and stat boost +2 by around 5th-6th level. Really, this is all a wash. If those options were not so scripted by reliance on core I wonder what the equipment list would look like.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Is this still true if opponents were not all wearing rings of protection, amulets of NA and magic armor? Stacking buffs from different sources is so common on both offense and defense that big picture I'm not sure that it does not all cancel out.
Maybe its groupthink, but in most games I play melee characters will have a ring +1, amulet +1, weapon +1 and stat boost +2 by around 5th-6th level. Really, this is all a wash. If those options were not so scripted by reliance on core I wonder what the equipment list would look like.

How many monsters have those? Go look in the MM2 (because I don't have it) and tell me how many have those. Monsters aren't built around magic armor, the designers just arbitrarily decided to give them natural armor to compensate for lack of items.

[ericgrau]

I'd think the casters can simply switch spells and get different metamagic feats since there are hundreds of decent alternative options. The non-casters have other feat options but most have core feats as pre-requisites. The bread and butter magic items are gone (including decent weapons) with few options to replace them.

[Chronos]

Again, the OP said that he's keeping core feats, skills, and equipment.

I think the biggest problem will be status afflictions. There are plenty of ways to heal HP (you could have spirit shamans, favored souls, or archivists casting the Vigor spells, or making wands of them), but you'll have no Restoration (or lesser or greater), no Break Enchantment, no Dispel Magic, no Remove Poison, no Remove Curse, no Remove Paralysis, etc. There are some non-core spells that can do some of this, (Panacea comes to mind), but they mostly come several levels later than the core equivalents. And the Dragon Shaman and Truespeaker can remove most conditions, but they're both pretty underpowered for that.

Of course, the grandaddy of all status afflictions is death. So far as I know, all of the non-core ways of bringing someone back only work within a few rounds of death, which is usually just an invitation for the monsters to kill you again (if you even had the appropriate spell prepared and available). So you're going to want to plan for a much grittier game in that regard.

[monotone]

Again, the OP said that he's keeping core feats, skills, and equipment.

I think the biggest problem will be status afflictions. There are plenty of ways to heal HP (you could have spirit shamans, favored souls, or archivists casting the Vigor spells, or making wands of them), but you'll have no Restoration (or lesser or greater), no Break Enchantment, no Dispel Magic, no Remove Poison, no Remove Curse, no Remove Paralysis, etc. There are some non-core spells that can do some of this, (Panacea comes to mind), but they mostly come several levels later than the core equivalents. And the Dragon Shaman and Truespeaker can remove most conditions, but they're both pretty underpowered for that.

Of course, the grandaddy of all status afflictions is death. So far as I know, all of the non-core ways of bringing someone back only work within a few rounds of death, which is usually just an invitation for the monsters to kill you again (if you even had the appropriate spell prepared and available). So you're going to want to plan for a much grittier game in that regard.

The dispel effects I'm not as worried about, since binders, incarnates and warlocks can all contribute there. Sometimes it may not work on the first try, however dispelling is still fundamentally possibly. It's the status effects that are my big fear. Ability damage, negative levels, curses and paralysis top the list as far as things that the classes have no easy answer for. They can be played around but it will take some work. There will no class that can fix all your problems tomorrow.
The game will be grittier there will be no two ways about that. I will most likely work in some means of returning fallen comrades, but it would be more story related. It also would not be guaranteed and would not work forever.
Some obstacles will not have easy solves, and by in large I would be ok with that. Parties will not have the capacity to "do it all," they will have to pick and choose what they are capable of and how they can do things effectively. What I am hoping to avoid are the you lose situations. What things do we take for granted that core classes can do?
High AC's can be worked around, healing can be worked around, flight and other movement modes are available, traps can be overcome, sneaking is possible...what else do parties need that they would not be able to do?

[ericgrau]

Again, the OP said that he's keeping core feats, skills, and equipment.
No worries then. I think I got drawn in by comments to dump those too.

I think with enough digging you could replace many spells. It might be hard and not always successful, but then status afflictions usually aren't dealt with right away anyway because you usually have to prepare it tomorrow. So maybe the spell is only good for curing ghoul fever and you'd never prepare normally it but as long as you're waiting until tomorrow anyway hey pick the one weird spell that works no problem.

Offense is a lot easier, as most anything works. And offense is a lot more common.

I don't think any well made encounters require you to have a particular spell prepared or you lose. Or even core players would already lose most of the time by bad luck. Maybe you need 1 of 5 types of offenses but it's likely that there are other spells within those types outside of core.

Hmm, but I can think of a set of spells you do get regardless of the party or builds: raise dead and so on. Are there reliable non-core alternatives?

[Knaight]

Again, the OP said that he's keeping core feats, skills, and equipment.

I think the biggest problem will be status afflictions. There are plenty of ways to heal HP (you could have spirit shamans, favored souls, or archivists casting the Vigor spells, or making wands of them), but you'll have no Restoration (or lesser or greater), no Break Enchantment, no Dispel Magic, no Remove Poison, no Remove Curse, no Remove Paralysis, etc. There are some non-core spells that can do some of this, (Panacea comes to mind), but they mostly come several levels later than the core equivalents. And the Dragon Shaman and Truespeaker can remove most conditions, but they're both pretty underpowered for that.

The Wu Jen might be able to cover this some, though I'm no expert regarding that class.