It's monkday again!

[Kaeso]

Greetings fellow playgrounders,

As usual, it's time for the weekly monk thread :smallbiggrin:. I'm having a go at defending the awful monk class, but this week there's a twist: I'll be defending the monk class in E6.

Like all melee based classes, monks aren't horrible in E6 IMHO. The problems monks face in d20 games are:
-Low BAB
-Low HP
-Low AC
-Low damage
-Feat starved
-Bad class features
-MAD
E6 offsets some of these flaws. For example, at level 6 the monk has BAB 4 compared to the fighters BAB 6. The hp difference between the two classes will merely be 1hp/level, and the AC of a monk with 18 dex and wis will be 18, the same as that of a fighter with full plate. The damage output at level 6 will be quite respectable as it equals the best one handed weapon (longsword). Of course, the way E6 works offsets the lack of feats, and the class features during the first 6 levels aren't all that bad. MAD is the only problem that remains, but with a few good class levels you can get past that.

So what do you think? Do you agree that monks are a valid class in E6 games?

[Xiander]

Seems to me, that even with all the things you mention taken into consideration, the monk is still just at faster fighter, with lower BAB and fewer hitpoints... and MAD.

I agree that the monk is more playable in E6, especially if you can get your gm to collaborate in the creation of some interesting monk only feats. The cratch is that E6 does not make the monk good, it makes him less bad.

[Eldan]

My main question is: how do you realistically get two 18s? And what are other classes doing with those 18s? The fighter, then, has 18 con and str. The wizard has 18 con and int. And so on.

[NOhara24]

Weekly monk thread? This is the first one I've seen and I've been here for...ok then...

But yes. +1 to the guy above me. It just makes them less bad, monks are still easily replaced by nearly any other class in the game. I realized this over the weekend when the following scenario occurred:

We were set to start playing at my place at 9:30, the DM, myself (Crusader/RKV) my girlfriend (Cleric/Sovereign Speaker) and the DM's brother (Unicorn/Cleric) were all going to be on time. The guy who has the miniatures/grid(monk), and his GF(rogue) were going to be late (He works late, so that's not a big deal. Why his GF has to be late with him, I don't know why.) I asked him if I could swing by his place earlier in the day to pick up the grid/miniatures. He asked "What are you going to do with half a party? ._."

My immediate response (in my head): "Two clerics and a Crusader, the entire party's there. I don't know what you're talking about."

tl;dr

Monks are useless in nearly ever scenario. This has been beaten to death already. We don't need a weekly thread about this.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You still have all the same drawbacks leading up to 6th level:
-Flurry of Misses
-Low Damage
-Extreme MAD

At 6th level your Flurry of Misses goes down to -1, and you can get the E6 capstone to negate the penalty. Compare that to the Fighter capstone, which allows him to take Greater Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery, and Improved Critical. Plus the Monk still can't move and flurry, you may as well forget flurry even exists and get Spring Attack. Another option to make full attacks more beneficial would be TWF, but you'll be even less likely to hit, and any character can pick up TWF to add armor spike offhand attacks to go with their 2H swings. At levels 1-5, it's still a Flurry of Misses.

Your damage starts at 1d6, same as someone using a light weapon, but you don't get sneak attack or any other decent damage bonuses. Strength is one of four stats that you need, so it's almost definitely not going to be all that high. You can get Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack for 2d8 base damage, and maybe even get a party spellcaster to buff you with Mighty Wallop so it goes to 3d8. Throwing feats at a problem is not really a solution, and your damage still sucks for quite a while.

The MAD problem is probably the biggest IMO. You could maybe solve it with a level adjusted race and lower pointbuy as per E6, but shoveling cheese at a class does not make the class itself any better.

For example, there's the Anthropomorphic Owl, which is small size and gets Dex +4, Wis +6, Cha -2, +1 natural armor, 10 ft. land speed, fly 20 ft. (poor), for +1 LA. You could use the Quick trait plus Improved Toughness to have a 20 ft. land speed for the cost of a feat, and start with 25 point buy, for something like Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 6. However, you should probably compare that to an Anthropomorphic Crocodile who goes something like HD 2/ Warblade or Crusader 4 for his E6 build, which still gets 3rd level maneuvers/stances.

After 6th level you can throw feats at the MAD problem, but that's only going to leave you with a further stunted progression. While characters of other classes only take Ability Training + Ability Advancement once or twice, the Monk is probably going to take those each four times, and while he's doing that characters of those other classes are taking feats that give far greater benefit.

For E6, Monk is still only a two level class, maybe even only one level. There's really no reason to get all six levels in it when you could instead use Unarmed Swordsage, or go Monk 2/ Warblade 4 (Wolf Fang Strike > Flurry of Blows). Even then, you can use one of the many tricks (Incantations, etc.) to get a Monk's Belt crafted and be better off without any levels in the class at all. Every level you spend on a given class is more precious in E6 than in a 1-20 game, so Monk actually turns out to be an even worse choice than normal.

[limejuicepowder]

I wouldn't even go so far as to say the monk is less bad, I would just say the other classes don't get to go so far ahead. Lowering the competition is not the same as increasing your own skills - I still think the monk is going to have a hard time making significant contributions at level 4, 5, and 6.

Break it down: yes the BAB is only 2 less then the fighter, but that 2 less is the difference between two attacks and one. Flurry is an option, but now that 2 lower is 4 lower for the primary attack, and you're still doing one-handed damage. HP is only somewhat lower, but 5-10 HP is a significant decrease when the max is maybe 50.

Like it was said before, the dice gods would have to smile on you in an amazing fashion for the monk to maintain the AC a fighter would have with 300gp's of armor. That sucks.

I just don't see how the monk would help a whole lot, except as maybe a grapple-lockdown-one-dude specialist, and even that could be done better by a barb with the right AFCs.

[Greenish]

I would argue that monk is, in fact, a rather strong class, definitely one of the stronger ones in Legend.

[Ceaon]

I would argue that monk is, in fact, a rather strong class, definitely one of the stronger ones in Legend.

:smalleek: :smallannoyed: :smallmad: :smallconfused: :smallamused:

[NeoSeraphi]

Sure, an E6 monk works fine, if you build it right. That is, drop Flurry of Blows and pick up Decisive Strike from PHB II, choose Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip as your bonus feats, take Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) as a feat, and grab the Spring Attack line, along with Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)

You have all good saves, respectable unarmed damage, and as a full-round action, you make a single attack roll at a -1 penalty and if you hit, you deal double damage (and all your AoOs for the round deal double damage as well). Also, you have a DC 15+Wis or stun attack, DC 17+Wis when you use Decisive Strike, 6 times per day. And you can trip when you feel like it.

So what does the fighter get over the monk? Higher AC (It's 19 in Full Plate, assuming the fighter has at least 12 Dex, which he should. Also assuming he's not carrying a shield, which is actually a pretty useful investment in E6 since AC still matters), more damage (Str score will be higher, generally), better to-hit, more hit points, more criticals, and damage reduction. (Adamantine heavy armor gives you DR 3/-. That's pretty decent in a game where a barbarian has to spend a feat to get DR 1/-)

The monk is good in his own niche (Stunning and high powered AoO control with Trips). But the fighter is clearly the superior combatant.

[Gwendol]

Go with a Goliath grappling monk, preferably as a 2-level dip and take four levels of cleric after that perhaps. Still, FoB is largely insignificant due to the full attack requirement, and the low probability of landing the hits. For that reason, stunning fist isn't quite as good as it could be (should be an at-will power first of all).
I don't see how the shortcomings of the class can be outweighed by an E6 game... all problems with the monk are still there.

[Zaranthan]

If it's grappling you want, I'd take psychic warrior over cleric. Look (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/gripofIron.htm) at this stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)!

[Doug Lampert]

Greetings fellow playgrounders,

As usual, it's time for the weekly monk thread :smallbiggrin:. I'm having a go at defending the awful monk class, but this week there's a twist: I'll be defending the monk class in E6.

Like all melee based classes, monks aren't horrible in E6 IMHO. The problems monks face in d20 games are:
-Low BAB
-Low HP
-Low AC
-Low damage
-Feat starved
-Bad class features
-MAD
E6 offsets some of these flaws. For example, at level 6 the monk has BAB 4 compared to the fighters BAB 6. The hp difference between the two classes will merely be 1hp/level, and the AC of a monk with 18 dex and wis will be 18, the same as that of a fighter with full plate. The damage output at level 6 will be quite respectable as it equals the best one handed weapon (longsword). Of course, the way E6 works offsets the lack of feats, and the class features during the first 6 levels aren't all that bad. MAD is the only problem that remains, but with a few good class levels you can get past that.

So what do you think? Do you agree that monks are a valid class in E6 games?

The monk gets two 18's, but the fighter doesn't even get 12 dex?

Edited to add: Look, the point above encapsulates the big problem with monks, no focus, stuff that's neat but doesn't synergize well, and as a consequence MAD. You need something like Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Wis 18 to keep up with a fighter with Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14 and plate armor and a two handed weapon, and in fact the fighter will still be up slightly on HP, attack bonus, and average damage vs. almost anything PRIOR to spending any feats.

[Linkscoolfriend]

Pathfinder helps put the monk on par with 3.5 to a point, although the core of why its a bad class are still there. The Pathfinder Ultimate Combat book offers some good replacement class builds, namely ones that replace Flurry, making certain monks from PF able to keep up with a fighter from 3.5. Keep up with. Not necessarily match.

[Person_Man]

You know, having a running weekly Monk thread that reviews and links to all of the previous Monk threads from the previous week, and consolidates/summarizes any new material in them into a single post is actually a good idea. A running list of homebrew fixes, differences between the PF Monk and 3.5, PrC suggestions, Feat suggestions, a running list of the standard debates and Playgrounders positions on them, etc. Like a Handbook, but with a much broader scope. Of course, curating that thread would be a thankless Sisyphean task. So I nominate someone who's not me.