Design challenge: Spellcaster tank

[Mystify]

Its time for mages to laugh at the redundancy of martial characters again.
So the challenge is to make a tank character out of a spellcaster. It must be arcane, and must be a full T1 or T2 caster. No polymorph.
You need to demonstrate you have the ability to take the damage being thrown your way. Anything that will damage attackers or will make attackers attack you is a bonus. This build should be viable for as large a spectrum of levels as possible.
Its kinda a fuzzy distinction, but the build should be focused at passively defending itself, not actively locking down enemies with abilities. Wall of fire would be in the spirit of the build, as that is laying down a passive defense. Casting slow on the enemies, while an effective debuff that limits their damage output, would not be in the spirit as that is an active lockdown effect. Its "How well can I be defensive", not "how well can I control the enemies"

Some houseruless in effect that may be relevant:
Metamagic reducers cannot let you cast a spell that is normally too high a level for you to cast. Metamagic rods and sudden metamagic are the exception.

Abjurant champion's abilities do improve the mage armor line of spells. It seems clear that was the intent, even if the RAW does not support it.

[Greenish]

If my memory serves, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has some minor defensive capabilities.

[Mystify]

If my memory serves, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has some minor defensive capabilities.

That can certainly be a strong component of this, but its not sufficient by itself. The enemy make a couple of saves, and your face is being eaten off anyways.

[Treblain]

I have a quick idea that could fulfill the tank role, but not in the way you want. Basically, Conjurer/Malconvoker who fills the fight with weak summons to soak up attacks. When he gets attacked himself, he makes the enemy waste their action using Abrupt Jaunt.

Since that's not really what you're asking for, there are some other ideas. Mindless Rage in SpC makes enemies have to physically attack the caster. Abjurant Champion seems to be the best way to get a high AC. If you can cast Giant Size, it's awesome.

[Ernir]

At what level do you want this?

[NeoSeraphi]

Why does it have to be a tier 1 arcane caster, instead of one of the other full arcane casters like beguiler/dread necro/warmage? Well, no matter.

This is easily doable, as long as you're flexible on what it means to be a "tank". If by "tank" you mean "takes damage over and over without dying while the rest of the squishier party does the hard work", then this build isn't going to make that work.

But if by "tank" you mean "directs aggression away from other party members and keeps the entire party alive", then the beguiler is the absolute best choice for this. You said Tier 1/Tier 2, so I'll just say it's a wizard who scribed every major illusion or enchantment spell into his spellbook and prepares them.

Combat begins. You cast major image and create a Huge creature in front of the party, or perhaps a creature of a race you know the enemy doesn't like (Elves for orcs, orcs for elves, kobolds for gnomes and vice versa). If your DM is playing the enemies correctly, they will most likely target this creature first. Assuming you've maxed your illusion save DC (Minor Esoterica (Illusion), Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, high Int, Shadow Weave Magic, and an Illusory Mask/whatever the item/soulmeld is that gives you +2 to the DC), you shouldn't have a problem having the creatures believe they are attacking a true enemy. Then you have it fight back, perhaps by turning invisible and casting an evocation spell from the same direction as it while having your illusion mimic your somatic components to make it look like its casting a spell. That will continue believability, while you directly contribute to combat and also keep the enemy on your illusion. And everyone else mops them up.

There you go. Tank.

If you're facing a horde of enemies, a major image of a dragon or a demon will generally scare them off, and you can get creative with your evocation spells in the meantime. (Cone of cold can easily look like a silver dragon's breath weapon)

[Piggy Knowles]

Delay Death (Arcane Disciple for the Destiny domain gets this just fine for arcane casters) + DC 30 Autohypnosis check seems to do the trick, no?

If you want a build, how about Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 5, which can eke out a few extra castings of Delay Death? That's just off the cuff, but if your goal is to soak damage, this can do it pretty much endlessly. Follow it up with the Stop Heart spell just to be cheeky.

[FMArthur]

Isn't IotSV just reactive offense? Like having 20 crafted contingent spells on you that devour your foes on their own for daring to harm you?

[erikun]

Just a few options:

Polymorph yourself into something with ridiculously high natural AC (dragons are good) and cast Scintillating Scales. Hello, high AC and touch AC!

Make yourself immune to cold (polymorph into a Silver Dragon works, I believe) and put on Blue Ice full plate, from Frostburn. Take the Snowcasting feat - possibly in combination with Eschew Materials, or just carry around a store of ice. Casting in full armor without arcane spell failure! And Blue Ice gives the same bonuses as mithral armor, at that.

Pick up feats that grant benefits to your casting stat. Faerie Mysteries Initiate can give you INT to HP. A dwarves sorcerer variant can use CON for spellcasting. It really shouldn't be too hard to get a number of scores tied to your main casting ability, especially in combination with outright immunity (Mind Blank, Protection from X) for resistances.

[NeoSeraphi]

Just a few options:

Polymorph yourself into something with ridiculously high natural AC (dragons are good) and cast Scintillating Scales. Hello, high AC and touch AC!

Make yourself immune to cold (polymorph into a Silver Dragon works, I believe) and put on Blue Ice full plate, from Frostburn. Take the Snowcasting feat - possibly in combination with Eschew Materials, or just carry around a store of ice. Casting in full armor without arcane spell failure! And Blue Ice gives the same bonuses as mithral armor, at that.

Pick up feats that grant benefits to your casting stat. Faerie Mysteries Initiate can give you INT to HP. A dwarves sorcerer variant can use CON for spellcasting. It really shouldn't be too hard to get a number of scores tied to your main casting ability, especially in combination with outright immunity (Mind Blank, Protection from X) for resistances.

The OP said "no polymorph".

The dwarven sorcerer variant adds your Constitution modifier to your Charisma score to determine the number of bonus spells per day you have. (If you have 20 Constitution, you get +5 to your Charisma score, or a +2 modifier, which only makes up for the fact that you took a -2 Charisma penalty and didn't use a race that got a +2 Charisma bonus. And it doesn't help you get higher level spells or increase the DC of your spells)

The dwarven sorcerer variant also requires you to be a 9th level sorcerer, no prestiging, no multiclassing. Not exactly a good "tank" option.

[erikun]

The OP said "no polymorph".
Ah, missed that. Sorry.


The dwarven sorcerer variant adds your Constitution modifier to your Charisma score to determine the number of bonus spells per day you have. (If you have 20 Constitution, you get +5 to your Charisma score, or a +2 modifier, which only makes up for the fact that you took a -2 Charisma penalty and didn't use a race that got a +2 Charisma bonus. And it doesn't help you get higher level spells or increase the DC of your spells)

The dwarven sorcerer variant also requires you to be a 9th level sorcerer, no prestiging, no multiclassing. Not exactly a good "tank" option.
I'm not very familiar with the variant, so thanks for the clarification. Still, we're talking about a 14-16 in CHA with items, which isn't too bad. It's definitely one of the lesser options, but still better than most non-magical choices.

I was mainly highlighting that it wouldn't be very difficult to base a lot of defenses on a single stat, significantly reducing what is needed to perform well. A sorcerer with some CHA-to-AC/CHA-to-saves would definitely work better.

[SleepyShadow]

Haven't worked out all the details on this one yet, but what about something like this?

Battle Sorcerer 5/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4

Spell Shield instead of familiar for some early game damage soak, decent hp, the crusader's natural tank nature, and later abjurant champion's AC boosts. Spells like Wings of Cover, Stone Skin, Wall of Fire, etc. all help as well.

[Psyren]

I would ban Leadership/Thrallherd if I were you.

Anyway, Psionic Dreadnought has this covered. There are two versions - one with Leadership/Thrallherd allowed and one without - which should I post?

EDIT: Blah, must be arcane, but I could fudge it with a StP Erudite anyway :smalltongue: Why do you hate psions?

[Hirax]

Delay Death (Arcane Disciple for the Destiny domain gets this just fine for arcane casters) + DC 30 Autohypnosis check seems to do the trick, no?


Was going to post this. My preferred method to getting delay death is the destiny domain. I'd have delay death set as my contingency spell, with instant refuge being the last resort. Combo with the shriver to get regeneration (Fiendish Codex 2) and veil of undeath or some other source of non-lethal immunity and you're all set.

[FMArthur]

I would ban Leadership/Thrallherd if I were you.

Anyway, Psionic Dreadnought has this covered. There are two versions - one with Leadership/Thrallherd allowed and one without - which should I post?

EDIT: Blah, must be arcane, but I could fudge it with a StP Erudite anyway :smalltongue: Why do you hate psions?

Probably for the reason you thought of psionics right away (I did too): because it's trivially easy for psionic characters to do it without as many steps or research as arcanists do.

[Psyren]

Here's a simple expedient - couldn't an arcanist just ladle on a pile of arcane buffs and contingent spells, then fire off a Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm)+Spectral Weapon and wade into melee? They're still not polymorphed, but they become melee beasts all the same.

[Deathslayer7]

I would think runesmith has potential. Casting in a full plate has its benefits. :smallamused:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Totally achievable at level one take abrupt jaunt and precast mage armor and alter self (troglodyte) then cast shield the first round of combat. With a 12 dex you'll have an AC of 25. So you'll basically only be hit on a twenty and when you are hit you can just burn a use of abrupt jaunt.

If mage-tanking is your sole goal take bladeproof skin for a level 1 feat for DR 3/bludgeoning.

[Psyren]

Alter Self may not have been explicitly prohibited but I think it goes against the intent of this challenge...

[Mystify]

I'd count alter self as a polymorph spell.

[FMArthur]

Totally achievable at level one take abrupt jaunt and precast mage armor and alter self (troglodyte) then cast shield the first round of combat. With a 12 dex you'll have an AC of 25. So you'll basically only be hit on a twenty and when you are hit you can just burn a use of abrupt jaunt.

If mage-tanking is your sole goal take bladeproof skin for a level 1 feat for DR 3/bludgeoning.

If you wait for the result of the attack roll to be confirmed, the blow has hit you. Past tense. And one hit is all it will take to drop a wizard at such low level. I don't think this kind of risk is a feasible build concept, not at that low a level, and the AC will need substantial assistance at levels higher than that.

[Eldariel]

Isn't taking damage really dumb? Like, why take damage when you can avoid it? Isn't the whole point of "tanking" in D&D to make enemies unable to deal damage to anyone?

[Mystify]

Isn't taking damage really dumb? Like, why take damage when you can avoid it? Isn't the whole point of "tanking" in D&D to make enemies unable to deal damage to anyone?
Negating their damage is fine. You just can't do it by directly hindering the enemy. That is debuffing, not tanking.

[erikun]

I'm not sure a wizard tank is really that viable at first level. As Hand of Vecna pointed out, it would take all your first-level spells to reach a tankish AC... for a single fight. Maybe with a highly optimized venerable Sun Elf focused specialist we could hit two, or even three fights, but it's not something I would really attempt to focus on.

Not sure how he is getting Alter Self (a 2nd-level spell) at first level, or turning into a 2HD creature either.

5th level, you could do pretty well for yourself. You can get +10 AC just from first level spells, and another +6 from the above Alter-Troglodyte. Bear’s Endurance will nearly double your HP, if you wanted to use that. You also have Blur, Displacement, and Mirror Image (your choice) to increase survivability. Lots of other options as well, and enough spell slots to last you through most normal days.

By 10th level, you could definitely afford an Animated shield and Mithril Twilight chain shirt, giving you the full armor bonuses of everyone else with 0% ASF. Throw the magical buffs on top of that, and you'll easily be outclassing the melee types in AC and defenses every time. This is, of course, assuming you didn't just go Abjurant Champion and use extended Mage Armor for an all-day AC buff as good as most armors.

[kardar233]

Was going to post this. My preferred method to getting delay death is the destiny domain. I'd have delay death set as my contingency spell, with instant refuge being the last resort. Combo with the shriver to get regeneration (Fiendish Codex 2) and veil of undeath or some other source of non-lethal immunity and you're all set.

Why bother with contingency? Go Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper and Persist (Su) Delay Death.

[Hirax]

I was lumping metamagic effect in with the category of forbidden things. If persistomancy is in play, then you're basically untouchable until someone hits you with disjunction.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If starting at 1st level, you'll need Abrupt Jaunt. IMO it's not exactly a viable idea any earlier than 3rd level, though.

Get Arcane Disciple for the Winter domain in Frostburn, with Wis 11+. By 3rd level get everyone in the party to each pitch in 2,000 gp to buy a 1st level Pearl of Power and to pay 1/3 of a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend. Your 2,000 gp will go toward 2/3 of a Lesser Rod of Extend. Someone may be stuck paying an extra 1k or 2k to make up an uneven fraction of a metamagic rod cost, which you should gladly pick up though any Cleric, Druid, or Wizard in the party would benefit from an extra use of Extend. You can get Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level and craft the pearls yourself, charging your party members full price but suffering a slight XP setback, in order to afford enough metamagic rods.

Every day use the pearls and rods to cast Extended Snowsight on everyone in the party, and use a rod to cast Extended Obscuring Snow. This is one of the most significant passive debuffs you can use at any level, and it's available from 3rd+. Any other character in the party capable of casting Obscuring Snow should also do so, preferably Extended.

You can also cast (Extended) Luminous Armor on yourself every day, though you'll want a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when the spell ends. That benefits from Abjurant Champion and from Paragnostic Apostle's Mind Over Matter ability. Note that you'll stand out like a beacon in the snow, so opponents are extremely likely to focus attacks on you.

I'd go with an Elf Generalist Wizard, using Snow Elf from Frostburn (Dex +2, Cha -2). Use Martial Wizard to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, and take the Domain Granted Power ACF at Wizard 5 for the Planning domain to get Extend Spell in place of your bonus feat. Get the Elf Wizard 3 substitution level, with a Hummingbird familiar (Dragon 323, Thrush stats, +4 initiative).

Get Fell Drain, and use it on spells like Power Word: Pain, Death Armor, and Cloud of Knives. The latter two should be made Persistent as well if possible, preferably via Incantatrix. Note that Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect have their own limitations, and could be exempt from the metamagic-reducer house rule. You should also use Ray of Stupidity liberally, especially with Split Ray. I understand a lot of those active tricks aren't what you're looking for, but Fell Drain Death Armor plus Obscuring Snow plus Shield and (Greater) Luminous Armor with Paragnostic Apostle and Abjurant Champion should be more than sufficient. The only drawback is that your tricks don't come online until 3rd level.

[Mystify]

sticking fell drain on one of those spells that damages people who attack you would be a nasty combination. Esp. if you get several going at once.