Pathfinder - Is Psionics Unleashed material well balanced?

[Vemynal]

Hey everyone, this questions seemed a bit to "opinionated" for the simple questions thread when I sat down and thought about it.

But basically; do you think that the Psionics Unleashed 3rd party material is balanced well with the rest of the pathfinder system?

Are there any standard rules for psionic/magic interaction?

The reason I ask is because in a custom campaign setting I created a year ago for 3.5 I used arcane, divine and psionic magic all as just different branches of real magic. So in 3.5 I used the rules that allowed for psions to counterspell and for wizards, etc, to "counterpowers".

But if Psions can kill you with half a thought and so can a wizard or a cleric, then it devolves into rocket racing. Rather than a different flavor of caster.

[Psyren]

But basically; do you think that the Psionics Unleashed 3rd party material is balanced well with the rest of the pathfinder system?

Yes. This is particularly true of the PF Soulknife, who can now stand toe-to-toe with other T4 melee like Barbarians and Cavaliers where before he was barely able to keep pace with the Monk. (Though Monk has itself been beefed up, with the right archetypes anyway.)

The tiers of the remaining classes are the same. Wilders got a bit of a buff.


Are there any standard rules for psionic/magic interaction?

Again, yes: the transparency rules between Psionics and Magic were carried over from 3.5. You can read them here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers)

The transparency is actually heightened in Pathfinder - UMD and UPD are one skill now, as are Psicraft and Spellcraft. This means among other things that wizards or clerics can now easily identify active powers/recognize powers from their displays, and rogues/alchemists can activate psionic items.

Furthermore, with the abolition of Concentration, psionics is a little harder to hide (suppressing your displays is now a caster level check) and much easier to disrupt (manifesting in a grapple or defensively is also a caster level check.)

Using spells to counter powers or vice-versa is not part of the regular rules, but they can still negate each other by less direct means - dispelling, healing, energy resistance, SR/PR, and boosting saves etc.



But if Psions can kill you with half a thought and so can a wizard or a cleric, then it devolves into rocket racing. Rather than a different flavor of caster.

It's no harder or easier for a psion to kill you than it is for a wizard or sorcerer; they're all casters in the end. Psionics has advantages in some areas, and magic has the advantage in others.

[Coidzor]

Psionics Unleashed is, IIRC, by Dreamscarred Press, one of the few outfits that is generally not viewed as incompetent by even a vocal minority, and is fairly widely regarded as one of the few groups that know their stuff and do their job well.

So you've got less to worry about from them than you do from Paizo, certainly less of a worry than any time Sean Reynolds opens his mouth, if my sources are correct.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Though Im still very noncerned that for two power points I can raise my summoning level.

[Psyren]

Though Im still very noncerned that for two power points I can raise my summoning level.

The amount of power points you can spend on a single manifestation is limited by your manifester level. A Psion 1 can no more spend 3 PP on Astral Construct, than a Wizard 1 can cast Summon Monster II.*


*barring specific feats or items that increase effective ML.

[Vemynal]

Awesome! =D

Any 3rd party materials you'd absolutely suggest I stay away from at all costs? There seems to be a lot of 3rd party material that has covered/adapted areas that were originally in 3.5.


Also, are there any Archetypes for the classes presented in Psionic Unleashed? Or racial substitutions for favored class? (a la Human Bard may choose to learn an additional spell below their highest spell level)

[subject42]

Also, are there any Archetypes for the classes presented in Psionic Unleashed? Or racial substitutions for favored class? (a la Human Bard may choose to learn an additional spell below their highest spell level)

The upcoming Psionics Expanded has both of those things. You can buy in to an early preview for it as well.

[NinjaStylerobot]

The amount of power points you can spend on a single manifestation is limited by your manifester level. A Psion 1 can no more spend 3 PP on Astral Construct, than a Wizard 1 can cast Summon Monster II.*


*barring specific feats or items that increase effective ML.

I meant that its very cheep.

[erikun]

I meant that its very cheep.
If you mean spending a 1st level spell slot and a 2nd level spell slot to at +1 DC to a first level spell "cheap", then yes. (I assume PF psionics behaves like 3.5e psionics.)

You are effectively looking at a free Eschew Materials feat and free Heighten Spell feat when comparing psionics to magic, which may sound nice except that most spellcasting characters in a lot of games wouldn't make much use of either of them. (Yes, the Shadowcraft Mage PrC does, but you can't have a Shadowcraft Psions.) There is also some healthy disadvantages to this approach, such as Psions dealing minimal damage unless they actually spend a "higher level spell slot" for their spells.

[mikau013]

I really dislike what dreamscarred press did with prestige classes though. The slayer is completely worthless now :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

(a la Human Bard may choose to learn an additional spell below their highest spell level)

Oh? Where's that from?

[Psyren]

I meant that its very cheep.

+2 PP may not look like much, but it adds up fast. Psionic powers do not automatically scale the same way spells do. You have to pay for more damage and higher DCs at the very least, and often have to pay for other things as well; this is in addition to paying for metapsionics, and even cost increasers like Catapsi.

For summons, manifesting higher levels is even more important. Unless you're fighting weak opponents, an underpowered astral construct in melee will get flattened, and you're out both a full-round action and its PP cost.


I assume PF psionics behaves like 3.5e psionics.)

They're essentially the same, yeah. A lot of exploits and loopholes got closed, and more was done to differentiate psions of different disciplines, just like wizards of different specializations were differentiated a bit more in PF.


I really dislike what dreamscarred press did with prestige classes though. The slayer is completely worthless now :smallsigh:

You must have a very strange idea of "completely worthless" :smallconfused: Care to elaborate?

[Manateee]

I meant that its very cheep.
Augmenting a power is like casting a higher-level spell. 3pp (for Astral Construct 2) is equivalent to a 2nd level spell slot (for Summon Monster 2). No cheeper for the psion than preparing a higher-level spell slot is for a Wizard.

If a Wizard spends all his spell slots on Summon Monster and a Shaper spends all his PP to cast Astral Constructs of equivalent levels, the Shaper will have a handful of PP left (much like a Sorcerer would), but not enough to do anything particularly meaningful.

The relationship between a Psion and a Wizard is much like the relationship between a Sorcerer and Wizard. Just the Psion doesn't fall so extremely on either end of the "more spells daily"/"more spells known" divide.

And if the Shaper tries to emulate a Summoner, he can't come close to keeping up.

[Prime32]

To sum things up, the various 3.x publishers in order of perceived balance:
Dreamscarred Press > WotC > Paizo > All other publishers

I've seen conversations that go something like this:

DM: "Psionic game, no 3rd-party material allowed."
Player 1: "Can I use something from Hyperconscious?"
DM: "Of course. Why are you even asking that? :smallconfused:"
Player 2: "Can I use something from Complete Psionic?"
DM: "No."
:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

To sum things up, the various 3.x publishers in order of perceived balance:
Dreamscarred Press > WotC > Paizo > All other publishers

WotC ahead of Paizo? :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

WotC ahead of Paizo? :smalltongue:

Paizo was responsible for Dragon Magazine for a while there, right?

Or were they Dungeon?

[Lord_Gareth]

The good news: Dreamscarred does good stuff, and is well-balanced for the system it publishes for, as well as being intuitive and easy to use.

The bad news: that system is still Pathfinder.

[Psyren]

The bad news: that system is still Pathfinder.

Feature, not bug, etc.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Whats the freaking problem with pathfinder!

Unless its that hyper nitpicky crap that I give no less then -10 craps about then I don't care.

[Doc Roc]

Whats the freaking problem with pathfinder!

Unless its that hyper nitpicky crap that I give no less then -10 craps about then I don't care.

They were once ***** to my friends, who were also *****.

It was more compelling in my head.

[Greenish]

Unless its that hyper nitpicky crap that I give no less then -10 craps about then I don't care.So unless it's stuff you don't care about, you don't care about it?

[NinjaStylerobot]

Once you start bringing out the non core Keywords I say that I do not care.

[Seerow]

Whats the freaking problem with pathfinder!

Unless its that hyper nitpicky crap that I give no less then -10 craps about then I don't care.

Well you ignore all the nitpicky crap... and now you're back playing 3.5, because the nitpicky crap is all pathfinder changed. :smallsigh:

[NinjaStylerobot]

Mkay.

Its still my favourite game though.

Yes, there are much better balanced games then pathfinder. I just can't bring myself to care. I like the art, I like the character options. I like leveling up.

I like the freedom it gives me.

Even games that are much better balanced then Pathfinder just don't interest me as much.

[Coidzor]

Once you start bringing out the non core Keywords I say that I do not care.

...Wait, wait, wait. If that's the case, then why did you go in to a thread about Pathfinder Psionics? :smallconfused:

Psionics itself is non core, so anything discussed within it or any terms or concepts that need to be learned as part of it are going to contain or be keywords.

And if you refuse to learn, care, or care to learn about a subsystem, then why are you advocating for or against its use?

[Doc Roc]

...Wait, wait, wait. If that's the case, then why did you go in to a thread about Pathfinder Psionics? :smallconfused:

Psionics itself is non core, so anything discussed within it or any terms or concepts that need to be learned as part of it are going to contain or be keywords.

And if you refuse to learn, care, or care to learn about a subsystem, then why are you advocating for or against its use?

Shhhh... Shhh... It will be okay. Look, look, I made you something (http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/OSS-Review-Version.pdf). It's got a shark who's an octopus who's a fire elemental. Though some skill DCs need work. Would you... would you like a hot water bottle too? I know it hurts.

[NinjaStylerobot]

As in "BAB, DR, SR" are keywords.

All that other stuff I just don't care about realy.

I came here to voice a potential concern. People said I was wrong. So OK then Im fine. I just saw people complain the PF is such an awfull system. I asked why.

If it was about that minor stuff that spawns 6+ pages of mechanikal discussion that both bores me and flies over me head then eh.

[Coidzor]

Shhhh... Shhh... It will be okay. Look, look, I made you something (http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/OSS-Review-Version.pdf). It's got a shark who's an octopus who's a fire elemental. Though some skill DCs need work. Would you... would you like a hot water bottle too? I know it hurts.

So confused. But it's so shiny.

So very, very shiny. :smalleek:

[lord_khaine]

Psionics itself is non core, so anything discussed within it or any terms or concepts that need to be learned as part of it are going to contain or be keywords.


Actualy, psionic is core, it says so on the EPHB, and its part of the SRD.

[erikun]

Actualy, psionic is core, it says so on the EPHB, and its part of the SRD.
I believe they are talking about Psionics Unleashed and the Pathfinder system psionics - not that your statement is accurate. The Expanded Psionics Handbook says "Dungeons & Dragons Supplement" at the top of it.

If you don't believe me:
http://images.funagain.com/cover/huge/14784.jpg


I came here to voice a potential concern. People said I was wrong. So OK then Im fine. I just saw people complain the PF is such an awfull system. I asked why.
If you did, I'm afraid I still don't know your concern. It sounds like you dislike non-core and consider it "nitpicky" and "boring", but that doesn't say anything about the material itself beyond it being non-core.

[mikau013]

You must have a very strange idea of "completely worthless" :smallconfused: Care to elaborate?

It would be bad enough if most off the class features only work versus favoured enemies, but to require them to also be psionic makes it just not worth it.

[NinjaStylerobot]

By core I meant that stuff like TWF or whatever. I do use other books.

[Greenish]

It would be bad enough if most off the class features only work versus favoured enemies, but to require them to also be psionic makes it just not worth it.It's 9/10 manifesting full BAB PrC with turbo-charged constant Nondetection and Mindblank.

And I don't see how having to pick a psionic favoured enemy is worse than not getting to pick at all like with the EPH version.

[Psyren]

Guys - I'm all for pimping Legend and everything, but do we need to do it in every Pathfinder thread?


It would be bad enough if most off the class features only work versus favoured enemies, but to require them to also be psionic makes it just not worth it.

It's a full BAB, 9/10 manifesting class that gives you both MWP and HAP for free. Anything else you get on top of that is icing, plain and simple.

And besides, one would imagine that if psionic PCs are allowed, the campaign may have a psionic opponent or two.