Be SAD not MAD: Monks

[Ardantis]

For those of you just joining us, the Be SAD not MAD threads discuss building traditionally MAD classes from SAD ability score outlays (28 buy, 1 stat 18 starting).

In the last round (Paladins), I was handily defeated and forced to admit that the most important Paladin skill is not Charisma, but Wisdom (see Sir Wisdom the SAD for reference). Although many people contributed, I would like to thank Psyren and Hawk for the crucial advice/feat/build that disproved my initial premise of building a Charisma-focused Paladin.

This time, I'd like to focus on the Monk. Monks are terrible, but like Paladins, they are a melee class rooted firmly in a mental stat. This stat, of course, is Wisdom. Therefore, I'd like to propose a Monk build based on these stats:

Wisdom 18
Dexterity 14
Constitution 12
Strength 10
Intelligence 8
Charisma 8

Wisdom fuels AC, Will saves, and Stunning Fist DC. This makes the class now care about stunning fist. Since most of the other class features are worthless and do not receive feat support, Stunning Fist looks like a priority to a Wis Monk.

Dexterity is AC (no armor!), some movement-based skills, Reflex Saves, and that's about it. With Weapon Finesse, it'll be chance-to-hit, too, which is important for Stunning Fist.

Constitution is Fort Saves and HP, and a Monk is a d8 HD so needs all the help he can get. Of course, going Fist of the Forest makes this the prime stat, but I'm looking at base Monk for now.

Strength is important to hit and damage, and could be switched with Dex for a more solid damage build. However, Monks don't deal very good damage to begin with, and I think I'd rather focus on the importance of Wisdom while keeping the character alive with Dex.

Intelligence is traditionally a Monk dump stat. There's only a few movement skills (TUMBLE) a Monk really needs to keep maxed, otherwise the points are good for the occasional movement-based skill trick. Works fine on low Int with a Human.

Charisma is the bottom of a Monk's list of ability score priorities. It affects no defenses or class abilities and only one skill (Perform).

Feats:

Now, if I were a Str secondary build, I would take Power Attack. Since I'm not, Weapon Finesse.

Weapon Finesse
Improved Initiative
Bonus- Stunning Fist
Bonus- Combat Reflexes (Str take Deflect Arrows)
Pain Touch- the easiest way to make Stunning Fist matter at low levels
Bonus- Improved Disarm (the obvious, although it still kinda sucks)


Oh frag it. This class is terrible!

They can't qualify on-time for feats DESIGNED FOR THEM because they can't fulfill the BAB requirement.

They can't take enough of the good stunning fist feats because those feats have inexplicable ability score requirements (Str, or even Con).

Their limited-list bonus feats are terrible.

All of their class abilities are defensive!

Heck, you'd think a Monk with a high enough Wisdom score would realize it is just flat out unwise to be a Monk in the first place.

[Greenish]

Instead of Weapon Finesse, one could take Intuitive Strike from BoED to key attack bonus to Wisdom.

[Edit]: Wise monk would travel to Sarlona to study in the Adar monastery of Tashatalora.

[Dragonmuncher]

How about a Monk with levels of Exotic Weapon Master and (I think it was called) Master Thrower?

Flurry some magic shuriken dipped in poison, with some prestige abilities that let you hit with a ranged touch attack, pin the enemy to the floor, and other stuff.

[Psyren]

[Edit]: Wise monk would travel to Sarlona to study in the Adar monastery of Tashatalora.

Or failing that, study with the Githzerai to become Fists of Zuoken. Less powerful but still much better than straight monk.

(Hell, even - gag- Zerth Cenobite is an improvement over Monk 20)

[SleepyShadow]

Just my 2 cp here, but wouldn't something like this work a bit better in reducing MAD?

Improved Initiative [Human]
Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
Stunning Fist [Monk]
Combat Reflexes [Monk]
Intuitive Attack
Improved Natural Attack
Improved Trip [Monk]

It's only the first 6 levels, but it seems like it would work fairly well as far as monks go.

[NeoSeraphi]

Instead of Weapon Finesse, one could take Intuitive Strike from BoED to key attack bonus to Wisdom.

[Edit]: Wise monk would travel to Sarlona to study in the Adar monastery of Tashatalora.

Intuitive Strike is an Exalted feat. Therefore it has a severe alignment restriction for a monk (Lawful Good) and may be suppressed by an antimagic field (At which point, you suck horribly, even though melee is still supposed to keep up in AMFs to some degree), because all Exalted feats are supernatural.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Instead of Weapon Finesse, one could take Intuitive Strike from BoED to key attack bonus to Wisdom.

[Edit]: Wise monk would travel to Sarlona to study in the Adar monastery of Tashatalora.

This a thousand times over. It does, however, become more of "Psychic Warrior down 2 levels of PP for unarmed shenanigans," to be fair.

The monk also benefits from a lot of feats that change around his stats. Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer, I think) changes Wis -> Cha for AC only.

Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) and Kung-Fu Genius (Dragon 319) both swap abilities to INT. Carmendine Monk explicitly says what jumps over to INT, as well a giving you an option for a free "+2 monk levels" to one of unarmed strike, AC, or unarmored move speed. Kung-Fu Genius lacks the bonus option, but says "all monk abilities jump to INT."

As is, these feats are great for multiclassing... not so much for a pure monk.

As it stands, I'd almost rather see the 18 go into Dexterity, as it is much easier to get it to attacks (Weapon Finesse) and damage (Seriously, check the X Stat to Y bonus thread. You could probably get it twice over without too many hoops).

EDIT: If we go with the "Donk" approach, the monk's ideal weapon would be a +1 Fierce Fey-crafted Dagger of Graceful Strikes. I believe there is an enchantment somewhere which allows monks to use their unarmed strike with certain weapons, but I may be misremembering it.

Alright, so, the Dex monk is still incredibly dependent on gear: it's like trying to make a mansion out of a shack with all the diamonds you have stole.

[Psyren]

If you're not going psionic or caster monk, then Dex focus is indeed better than Wis. But as those options are themselves inferior, it is not highly recommended at all.

Physical stats tend to be highly derided because they are so easily replaced. Focusing on Dex doesn't help you at all when the party Wizard 'morphs you into a Hydra, but focusing on Wis does.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If you're not going psionic or caster monk, then Dex focus is indeed better than Wis. But as those options are themselves inferior, it is not highly recommended at all.

Physical stats tend to be highly derided because they are so easily replaced. Focusing on Dex doesn't help you at all when the party Wizard 'morphs you into a Hydra, but focusing on Wis does.

Fair point. I'm of the opinion that the best monks have at most 6 levels in the actual class - and that's pushing it. I know there are a few interesting ACFs in both Dungeonscape and Elder Evils. UA can help with your bonus feat options, maybe, depending on what you're planning on doing in combat.

[Tvtyrant]

My favorite monk build (and one which isn't great but is visually hilarious) is the Shuriken barrage build. See, you can TWF (and therefore MWF) with thrown weapons, and shuriken are considered light for TWF and a Monk weapon. So you use an Anthropomorphic Squid/Giant Squid and multiweapon fight with splitting shuriken, adding in your flurry amounts as well. There are some other tricks to it, but you can easily get 30 shuriken in the air. Now you just need something you can hit with them :P

[FMArthur]

It's often hard to evaluate how much better off you are after you put all your stuff into one stat and it winds up dictating like half of your build to do it. Being MAD in melee is unfortunate, but do you actually have less of a problem if you spend so much to alleviate it? Someone who didn't would probably have better feats, features and gear set up to actually give the character better options. In point buy, an 18 and 8 is competing for the same points as a 16 and 14.

[Silva Stormrage]

Don't ignore the Shiba Protector either, it is in Oriental Adventures (pg 222) and grants wisdom to hit and damage. Though it is 3.0 and has a pretty harsh entrance feat tax.

[Friv]

My favorite monk build (and one which isn't great but is visually hilarious) is the Shuriken barrage build. See, you can TWF (and therefore MWF) with thrown weapons, and shuriken are considered light for TWF and a Monk weapon. So you use an Anthropomorphic Squid/Giant Squid and multiweapon fight with splitting shuriken, adding in your flurry amounts as well. There are some other tricks to it, but you can easily get 30 shuriken in the air. Now you just need something you can hit with them :P

That's easy. Aid Another uses a DC of 10, and says that it stacks. Just give your three friends each a +20 to hit with their own attacks by filling the air with shurikens.

[Tvtyrant]

That's easy. Aid Another uses a DC of 10, and says that it stacks. Just give your three friends each a +20 to hit with their own attacks by filling the air with shurikens.

I believe the trick that I originally saw for this was to use the boomerang/apptitude trick but applied to Shuriken so that you could daze enemies with them, but your trick sounds awesome as a buff ability.

[balistafreak]

That's easy. Aid Another uses a DC of 10, and says that it stacks. Just give your three friends each a +20 to hit with their own attacks by filling the air with shurikens.

I have this sudden image of shuriken as Bishonen sparkles flying around the BSF, or perhaps those action/movement background lines.

Do keep in mind that you have to be "in melee range" to do this. The fun part is that you don't have to be using a melee attack, though, which is why this trick works.


In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll (not a melee attack roll!) against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

[Manateee]

The fun part is that you don't have to be using a melee attack, though, which is why this trick works.
Kind of. Not as the flurry described.

...you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action.


EDIT:
@OP:
Wild Monk (Dragon 324) gets Wild Shape and keeps Evasion and Wholeness of Body
Add Invisible Fist (Immediate invisibility/blink) and Dark Moon Disciple (total concealment except in bright light), and you've got some potential.

[balistafreak]

Kind of. Not as the flurry described.

... herp.

Could have sworn that said "attack action". Nuts.

No anime action lines this time. :smallfrown:

[Human Paragon 3]

Here's my monk paladin multi class character focused on smiting and stunning. It sounds insane, but it actually works. Technically it would work without the paladin, but either way, it's a SAD monk build that can sucker punch a balor and make him go down like Bald Bull.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=348737

The key is intuitive attack and every stun booster known to man. Without the paladin levels, she loses a little BAB and all those sweet smites, but it frees up three feats.

[Namfuak]

Would monks be any good with a base 18 to every stat? I mean, one could justify it by saying that a level 1 monk has spent years in a monastery training himself physically and mentally to be exemplary in all of these things, and is now traveling to hone his abilities.

What if we even threw in that if the monk was a race that normally took penalties to ability scores, they did not take that penalty, but still took the bonus?

There would probably need to be caveat that if the monk multiclassed into a class that would disallow him from taking any more monk levels, he would have to reroll his stats normally.

[Human Paragon 3]

Obviously giving a monk higher point buy improves it -- how could it not? -- but it doesn't solve the real problems of the class. And anyway, you still need to buy stat-boosting items, and since you can't just concentrate on one item, you're at a disadvantage compared to single-stat dependent characters.

[Godskook]

Ok, so what're you trying to prove on this one, exactly? On the Paladin, you at least tried to assert that you had dug Paladin out of tier 5, but it sounds like you convinced yourself that wasn't happening here before you got out of the first post.

[Human Paragon 3]

Tier 4. Does one thing very well, with a small amount of versatility.

The reason I mentioned the build doesn't require paladin to function is because the OP is not talking about paladins, he's talking about monks.

If you take a look at the way the character functions, you'll see that the abilities of the paladin and monk have some synergy. You can smite and double the damage with decisive strike, for instance, and the paladin's better BAB mitigates the monk's poor offense.

[ericgrau]

Weapon finesse only means dex > wis instead of str > wis. Your stunning fists are useless if they don't hit, as are your other 1-4 attacks per round. Oh, and you've lost a lot of damage too.

If I wanted a SAD paladin or monk I'd focus pure str and put maybe 12s in other abilities and then only because the first couple points in a stat are cheap. I'm actually playing a paladin with a 10 wis (rolled stats) right now because I don't think their low level spells are a big deal. I'll get a wis boosting item when I'm high enough level to change my mind about that.

If you want a wis focused monk you need to get wis to hit & damage or some cheesy trick to auto-hit in spite of your attack bonus or it's a total waste. Stunning fists aren't even that great. Their shining advantage is that they don't take an action meaning you can get your regular attacks and still have an ok chance of doing something nice in addition to them. The moment you tank all your regular attacks just to stun better you've ruined your character. It's like selling off your gun collection to buy the best ammo on the market.

[Mystify]

Would monks be any good with a base 18 to every stat? I mean, one could justify it by saying that a level 1 monk has spent years in a monastery training himself physically and mentally to be exemplary in all of these things, and is now traveling to hone his abilities.

What if we even threw in that if the monk was a race that normally took penalties to ability scores, they did not take that penalty, but still took the bonus?

There would probably need to be caveat that if the monk multiclassed into a class that would disallow him from taking any more monk levels, he would have to reroll his stats normally.
I made a monk with pure 18 stats once. I made it into a psuedo boss against the party. He has 4 levels on them, they had 6 characters.
He was not only able to survive for a long time, but took out several party memebers. The only reason they actually got him was the warmage doing a 2-round true strike/blast cycle. His AC was nearly unassailable, he hit hard, and had a feat selection to help him avoid damage and manage groups. Everyone ended up on their face.

[Godskook]

Tier 4. Does one thing very well, with a small amount of versatility.

The reason I mentioned the build doesn't require paladin to function is because the OP is not talking about paladins, he's talking about monks.

If you take a look at the way the character functions, you'll see that the abilities of the paladin and monk have some synergy. You can smite and double the damage with decisive strike, for instance, and the paladin's better BAB mitigates the monk's poor offense.

Sorry, but I meant to ask that of the OP, but hitting "post reply" 12 hours before "submit reply" does annoying things to a post.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Rattlesnake Strike from Sandstorm yet. That spends a Stunning Fist use to poison your target for 1d3 Con damage initial and secondary. You can get Ability Focus and Virulent Poison for +4 DC even, though using poison automatically disqualifies you for exalted feats like Intuitive Attack, so it may be counterproductive. If you swap Str and Dex and go Half-Orc, you could get Pharaoh's Fist, and Stunning Fist so hard that it stuns everyone adjacent to your target... including yourself.

If only every terrible class could just be replaced by a magic item that grants the wearer all of its useful class features....

[Greenish]

Here's my monk paladin multi class character focused on smiting and stunning. It sounds insane, but it actually works. Technically it would work without the paladin, but either way, it's a SAD monk build that can sucker punch a balor and make him go down like Bald Bull.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=348737

The key is intuitive attack and every stun booster known to man. Without the paladin levels, she loses a little BAB and all those sweet smites, but it frees up three feats.Needs more Argent Fist.

[Need_A_Life]

For those of you just joining us, the Be SAD not MAD threads discuss building traditionally MAD classes from SAD ability score outlays (28 buy, 1 stat 18 starting).

[...]

Wisdom 18
Dexterity 14
Constitution 12
Strength 10
Intelligence 8
Charisma 8

Wisdom fuels AC, Will saves, and Stunning Fist DC. [...] Stunning Fist looks like a priority to a Wis Monk.

Dexterity is AC [...]

Constitution is Fort Saves and HP, and a Monk is a d8 HD so needs all the help he can get. Of course, going Fist of the Forest makes this the prime stat, but I'm looking at base Monk for now.
Let's start with a race with a Wisdom bonus. In 3.5 this means Lesser Aasimar. In Pathfinder, this means Dwarf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc or Human. I'll ignore Dragonwrought Kobold cheese (they make better Loredrakes, anyhow)

We've got a +5 Wisdom bonus to play with. We add this to AC, Will saves and the ever important (Spot & Listen)/Perception skill, which helps us avoid the dreaded Flat-footed status.
Our str, int and cha can be assumed to be horrible, but let's give ourselves a good Dex and a decent Con. We're still at a level of MAD equal to a Fighter or a Barbarian, so this is good.

Now, going with Human gives us two feats to play with. Intuitive Attack, unfortunately requires +1 BAB (though a nice GM will waive that), so we'll have to look elsewhere for that. Evasive Reflexes and Combat Reflexes work splendidly, and we still only need a Dex of 13, so there's plenty of points to play with.

Now, the combo of these two feats isn't quite obvious. You'd think it was just a case of whether you'd spend your attack of opportunity attacking or maneuvering. Actually, you're going to hit them as often as you can, then move away, if people keep coming.

Once you hit level 2, retrain Combat Reflexes to Intuitive Attack, and pick up Combat Reflexes as your bonus feat.

At level two, we have: Wis to AC, Will saves, attack, Stunning Fist. You have some battlefield control. We also get evasion, which is nice.

At level three, I'll suggest something shocking: A level dip.
Unarmed Swordsage 1.
You're going to pick yourself a Shadow Hand stance called Child of Shadows, to make use of your Evasive Reflexes. I recommend focusing on Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, but pick whatever you think will be useful. You also get a feat, so take Shadow Blade to add Dex to damage.

At level three, you get:
Wis to AC, Will, attack, Stunning Fist.
Dex to damage, possibly trip (via Setting Sun strikes).
Battlefield control (Setting Sun, Evasive Reflexes), Evasion.
Concealment (20% miss chance) every time you move 10ft. or more a round, which between 5ft.steps and Evasive Reflexes is almost always.
Use Brass Knuckles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/brass-knuckles) as your weapon from this point on, so you can keep up with enchanted weapons.

Keep up monk levels, multi-classing into Prestige Classes or with other classes for useful benefits. Gloom Razor benefits you every bit as much as it does a Swordsage, rogue or ninja.
If your GM insists on multiclassing monks being able to progress as monks, then remind him that the monk class represents the urban brawler just as much as the ascetic monk. Considering that the average PC is a sociopathic mercenary, who spends enough time in taverns and inns that "alcoholic" might be an appropriate label.

This build would, in most games, be perfectly competitive, although he is squishy the first two levels (but then again, so's everyone else). I know some might call it cheating to use multiclassing and Tome of Battle, but meleers need nice stuff too.

EDIT: Oh, and for ranged monk: Focus on Strength, take Brutal Throw (Str to attack with thrown weapons) and throw shurikens. Full-on Orc nets you +4 str, which means you can start with 22 strength, if you really want. two times 1d2+6 (Flurry, they're monk weapons, remember?) at level one will rip a hole in most things. Point Blank Shot etc. helps.

[Bonzai]

I would lean towards focusing on Dex as well, with Wisdom as a tertiary stat after Con. Weapon Finess and Shadow blade (Tome of Battle), will let you put Dex on to hit and damage rolls. The most effective monks that I have seen are Skarn Monk/spine meld warriors from magic of the Incarnum. They can do some serious damage. For fun and flavor, I also like Umbral Adepts from the same book. Being able to flurry from 20ft away, sneak attack, and hide in plain sight is pretty fun.