3.5 PHB Archer Help

[Keithicus]

I'm playing in a campaign that should be progressing to level 5 or 6 before it ends, and I'm running an archer. I'm currently a human fighter 2 (Str 11, Dex 18, Cha 8, rest 10) with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus (Longbow).

I'm looking at my options and I really don't see much in terms of choice for improving myself, but I don't see many meaningful options for 3rd level. My DM isn't allowing retraining and my original plan was to go ranger 2 and retrain Rapid Shot away.

One option I'm seeing is to go Barbarian 1 and Ranger 1 for the land speed bonus and the favored enemy, then take my 5th level... somewhere (would go druid just for the animal companion but seeing as we're only guaranteed to go 5th level I don't want to lose my chance at gaining a second attack). Another option is to just stay fighter and continue along the Weapon Focus line.

What would the playground suggest I do? I know this is rather limited, but I'm curious to see what the rest of you see.

[SleepyShadow]

You could go 4 levels of Rogue and pick up 2d6 sneak attack. Most combats in dungeons don't seem to have more than 30' of space in between the combatants anyway.

When in doubt, Improved Initiative is never a bad choice for a feat.

[Gavinfoxx]

Start picking up Cleric levels? Divine Favor is useful...
edit. Oh wait, your stats suck. Why do your stats suck so much?

[Keithicus]

I considered rogue for a little, but how would I be able to apply my sneak attack damage to a ranged weapon without some sort of added ability that I don't see? Outside of first round flat footed attacks I don't see a way to do it without relying on the cleric or bard/sorcerer to somehow deny the enemy his dex to AC

Edit: my stats suck so much because I wanted to focus on accuracy early on, I figured that the -2 rapid shot penalty would have been uglier than it's been for me.

[Gavinfoxx]

Grease denies enemy dex to AC unless they have 5 ranks of Balance.

[Manateee]

Is Assassin on the table? Between its poisons, Sneak attack, magic items, stealth/spot and spells, it's usually one of the best core options for an archer (the other being a specialized cleric). Rogue brings a bit less to the table, but still has the skills and closerange bonus damage to support an archer.

Edit:
And for sneak attack damage, you can also sneak up, get the surprise round and try to win initiative. Or get Grease/Greater Invisibility going. If you have an effective caster, their debuffs and BC spells often leave enemies vulnerable to sneak attacks (that's one of the reasons Glitterdust and Black Tentacles are so scary).

[Keithicus]

I could look into if our bard/sorc is willing to use Grease or any of the other spells that would help (currently that player is a little... useless).

I'll talk to the DM and see if he's willing to ignore the evil requirement for Assassin, if he isn't then I can't go assassin (NG alignment). Also, at most I'd only be able to get 1 level in assassin anyway, the campaign is unlikely to go past 5th or 6th level (it's a learning campaign for a lot of the players at the table)

[dextercorvia]

Start picking up Cleric levels? Divine Favor is useful...
edit. Oh wait, your stats suck. Why do your stats suck so much?

That is a 25 pt. buy.

Honestly in PHB-only, without the ability to do spellcasting, I'd ride out Fighter until 4 and pick up Weapon Specialization. At level 4, train up your Int to 11, and start looking for an Int boosting item. Then pick up a level of Wizard. Mage Armor, Shield, Grease, Reduce Person, Magic Weapon, and True Strike could all be useful to you.

[Seharvepernfan]

Man o man you should have started out as ranger. Two levels of ranger, three of rogue, and one of barbarian would have been a good build. For the future, remember that when playing archers, DONT BE A FIGHTER. And put a decent score in strength.

[Piggy Knowles]

Oof, that's pretty tough with those stats. Archers need bonus damage any way they can to stay relevant, and the most obvious source is having the Strength bonus to use a composite bow.

I would follow dextercorvia's advice, and take Fighter 4 for Weapon Specialization. It's not the greatest feat in the world, but adding two points of damage to every shot actually will make a difference on those levels.

For the last level, you definitely don't want a 5th level of fighter. You could do wizard like he suggested, but it's not really a clear-cut choice. Other choices include...

Barbarian - Fast movement is nice. Rage means that for a limited time per day, you can use a composite bow and get some benefit out of it, although you'd have to lug two bows around.

Cleric - You'd have to bump your Wisdom to 11 at level 4. Take the Luck domain, which gives you a free re-roll every day, and then either Plant (Entangle is a good spell for an archer to have), or Strength (Enlarge Person reduces your accuracy somewhat, but increases your bow's damage from 1d8 to 2d6, which is a reasonable trade-off). Basically, you're trading a point of BAB for two low-level spells and some domain bonuses, which is honestly worth it. Using wands of cleric spells is also nice, and you can become a back-up healer.

Ranger - If you're always fighting one type of enemy, ranger for another +2 bonus to damage wouldn't hurt. You could also start picking up wands of ranger spells to add some additional utility, while you were at it.

Rogue - +1d6 sneak attack damage certainly won't hurt, although being within 30' hurts, and you have no reliable way to get sneak attack. Ordinarily I'd say to snipe, but you don't have the hide check for it. Might be worth it if the spellcaster wants to play nice with you.

[Keithicus]

Actually, rather humorously, I'm currently outperforming the ranged ranger (used to be a melee rogue that contributed nothing and ultimately died).

Looking into it more, I'm thinking training Strength at 4th level, getting a composite +1 longbow, and going weapon specialization, then 1 level in barb (because I most likely won't reach 6th) for fast movement and getting a 3rd shot will let me pump out the most damage without having to rely on a caster to debuff the enemy (at the moment the closest thing we have to a debuffer is a bard 1/sorc 1...she's using the bard level to buff and the sorc level has pretty weak spells)

The other option that appeals to me is training int to 11 and taking my 5th level in wizard, but without fractional BAB I'd lose out on my 2nd (usually 3rd with rapid shot) attack.

Edit: Am I overvaluing the use of an extra attack? Because so far getting 2 attacks off instead of most people's 1 and having a much higher attack bonus is how I've been doing solid damage so far.

We haven't been fighting the same enemies consistently. Kobolds, Oozes, a multitude of other things that I don't recognize. The campaign has been quite varied so far.

[Piggy Knowles]

Looking into it more, I'm thinking training Strength at 4th level, getting a composite +1 longbow, and going weapon specialization, then 1 level in barb (because I most likely won't reach 6th) for fast movement and getting a 3rd shot will let me pump out the most damage without having to rely on a caster to debuff the enemy (at the moment the closest thing we have to a debuffer is a bard 1/sorc 1...she's using the bard level to buff and the sorc level has pretty weak spells)

That's not a bad idea..... but I'm curious as to how you're getting an extra attack at 5th level, since your first iterative doesn't come on board until 6th.

[Zherog]

How does a level of barbarian at 5th level give you a 3rd shot?

edit: Sneaky McNinja asked before I could...

[Keithicus]

That's not a bad idea..... but I'm curious as to how you're getting an extra attack at 5th level, since your first iterative doesn't come on board until 6th.

Because I forgot how to count... >.> for some reason my memory was saying "every 5th level I get an extra attack" instead of "every 5th + 1"

[SleepyShadow]

Ooh, I got it.

Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Barbarian 2

3rd: Hand Crossbow Focus (DotU)
Ranger: Two-Weapon Fighting

Dual-wield hand crossbows with rapid shot and full BAB. Effective? No clue, but it certainly sounds cool :smallcool:

[Keithicus]

Ooh, I got it.

Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Barbarian 2

3rd: Hand Crossbow Focus (DotU)
Ranger: Two-Weapon Fighting

Dual-wield hand crossbows with rapid shot and full BAB. Effective? No clue, but it certainly sounds cool :smallcool:

That does sound fun, except for that I'm stuck with PHB only, this DM doesn't have a lot of books and he doesn't want to include things he doesn't have books on-hand at all times for.

Edit: official word from DM is "we won't reach 6th level" So I don't have to worry about BAB for my build. Meaning I'm quite likely to consider getting a level in rogue, barbarian, or ranger depending on which appeals to me. I figure giving people a chance to see sneak attack damage and know how to make an enemy vulnerable to it would be useful

[nedz]

You need 6 BAB for another attack, so unless you make 6th level it aint going to happen.

You could consider Sorc instead of Wizard ? Trouble is Arcane casters and Armour don't mix.

Druid 1 would give you an animal companion of sorts, and a few spells.

[Keithicus]

You need 6 BAB for another attack, so unless you make 6th level it aint going to happen.

You could consider Sorc instead of Wizard ? Trouble is Arcane casters and Armour don't mix.

Druid 1 would give you an animal companion of sorts, and a few spells.

the armor doesn't hurt me as much as it should, I'm (probably stupidly) using padded armor since I didn't want to take the armor check penalty. In light of not reaching 6th level, going fighter 4, training wis to 11, and taking 1 level of druid for a wolf is the most appealing thing to me, especially since our cleric is having to use so many spells to save the melee that I'd be able to at least stabilize people and let the cleric do something else.

[Flickerdart]

Make sure to grab some armour spikes - if people are trying to ruin your day by going into melee, give them a pelvic thrust full of pointy death.

[dextercorvia]

Oof, that's pretty tough with those stats. Archers need bonus damage any way they can to stay relevant, and the most obvious source is having the Strength bonus to use a composite bow.

I would follow dextercorvia's advice, and take Fighter 4 for Weapon Specialization. It's not the greatest feat in the world, but adding two points of damage to every shot actually will make a difference on those levels.

For the last level, you definitely don't want a 5th level of fighter. You could do wizard like he suggested, but it's not really a clear-cut choice. Other choices include...

Barbarian - Fast movement is nice. Rage means that for a limited time per day, you can use a composite bow and get some benefit out of it, although you'd have to lug two bows around.

Cleric - You'd have to bump your Wisdom to 11 at level 4. Take the Luck domain, which gives you a free re-roll every day, and then either Plant (Entangle is a good spell for an archer to have), or Strength (Enlarge Person reduces your accuracy somewhat, but increases your bow's damage from 1d8 to 2d6, which is a reasonable trade-off). Basically, you're trading a point of BAB for two low-level spells and some domain bonuses, which is honestly worth it. Using wands of cleric spells is also nice, and you can become a back-up healer.

Ranger - If you're always fighting one type of enemy, ranger for another +2 bonus to damage wouldn't hurt. You could also start picking up wands of ranger spells to add some additional utility, while you were at it.

Rogue - +1d6 sneak attack damage certainly won't hurt, although being within 30' hurts, and you have no reliable way to get sneak attack. Ordinarily I'd say to snipe, but you don't have the hide check for it. Might be worth it if the spellcaster wants to play nice with you.

Cleric was my runner up, and you sell it better than I was thinking. I wasn't even thinking about the domain abilities. :smallredface: This would be better than a Wizard level in this case. Basically, you get more out of Cleric with a low Wisdom, than you do out of Wizard with a low Int.

[Chronos]

Another good domain option for a cleric is Travel, for the freedom of movement effect. At low level, it'll only work for (IIRC) 1 round per day, but that's usually enough to get you out of trouble.

[Keithicus]

The travel domain granted power doesn't let me ignore AoOs, but I think I will take Cleric (even if the DM calls me a munchkin for it lol)

[dextercorvia]

The travel domain granted power doesn't let me ignore AoOs, but I think I will take Cleric (even if the DM calls me a munchkin for it lol)

The best way to avoid such name calling, IMO, is to inform the DM that you will be heading toward it in the next level or two, and begin RP'ing how your character "finds religion."

I had a Wizard back in 2e that went up on rooftops in the middle of the night and 'appeared' as an avatar of a made up deity, to try to build a following. Imagine his surprise when his deity appeared to him one night, and all of the sudden, dual classing into cleric didn't seem so weird. Most DM's I've worked with, love that kind of character development.

In the mean time, you can work toward Weapon Specialization.

[Keithicus]

He called me a munchkin already because I told him my plan. He's only calling me it because I'm working to a higher optimization level than the rest of the players. It doesn't bother me.

[Ryulin18]

One of my players is playing a favoured soul with an Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). High Dex, Moderate Cha (for spells) and an okay strength is all you really need. Divine Might and some other buffs give you ridiculous to attack.

Don't fall for the trap of favoured souls where you put into Wisdom as well. That just raises the DC's. Pick self buffs and you will never need it!

[ericgrau]

I'd take fighter straight to 4 for weapon spec before dipping. You have 2 attacks with low damage per hit so 2 more is very helpful at low levels. Ranger 1 is a nice dip for favored enemy if you know which one to pick. Undead or sometimes human are often good if facing mixed foes, as they tend to be more common. Barbarian 1 isn't as great for range. Rogue 1 is a decent dip. The way you get sneak attack is that all foes are flat-footed before their first action. Most fights are decided in about 3 rounds anyway (plus 2 more cleanup rounds) so it's worth it. Not as much as weapon spec but it's helpful; better than the 1 BAB you lose. Cleric 1 isn't worth it. A +1 to hit all the time is better than saving your butt perhaps never, or maybe once the entire campaign. You aren't even a front liner. Blowing a round to increase your damage with enlarge person will reduce your damage overall, as it's one less round of attacking and you're at a -2 to hit. Also replaced by a cheap potion for the rare times you get a buffing round (instead of losing a combat round) so that it's barely worth it. Most foes will save against your entangle with your wis, and it doesn't work well with melee allies.

The question now is what feat to get for fighter 3. Improved initiative or a save boost is so-so but better than nothing. If you're outside a lot mounted combat and later mounted archery could let you move fast and full attack, which is awesome-sauce unless your party isn't similarly hard to hurt or if you face a lot of ranged foes. Hmm... that's all I can find.

So maybe fighter 4 / rogue 1 / ranger 1, with improved init at fighter 3 for more options on what you can sneak attack round 1 (and killing off foes slightly faster even before that point).

[Draz74]

I'd take fighter straight to 4 for weapon spec before dipping.

That's actually a pretty tempting option in a game that won't go beyond Level 5, yeah.

Still probably not as good as a Cleric dip, though.

[Myth]

He called me a munchkin already because I told him my plan. He's only calling me it because I'm working to a higher optimization level than the rest of the players. It doesn't bother me.

I think you have case of douchebag DM my friend... :smallannoyed:

Next time just roll a Wizard, Cleric or Durid and make him sit there stupified when you eat all the encounters he's prepared for the day. I am certain that ill put Fighter 5 into perspective when deciding who is a "munchkin".

[dextercorvia]

I think you have case of douchebag DM my friend... :smallannoyed:

Next time just roll a Wizard, Cleric or Durid and make him sit there stupified when you eat all the encounters he's prepared for the day. I am certain that ill put Fighter 5 into perspective when deciding who is a "munchkin".

Nah, his DM just has never accepted the intended modularity of the multiclassing system. To him, a Fighter should be a Fighter until the day he dies. All else is sacrificing roles for rolls.

It's not douchebaggery, just a common misconception about the system. It doesn't help that some 1 level dips give you so much more than others.

[TuggyNE]

I think you have case of douchebag DM my friend... :smallannoyed:

Next time just roll a Wizard, Cleric or Durid and make him sit there stupified when you eat all the encounters he's prepared for the day. I am certain that ill put Fighter 5 into perspective when deciding who is a "munchkin".

Also, two wrongs don't make a right... don't break the game just to make a point, however correct it might be. Y'know?

[Myth]

So he's ok with a single-classed Druid being heaps and bounds better than a single classed Fighter so long as his arbitrary conception of "character roles" is fulfilled? That person is not fit to be a 3.5 DM IMO.

[dextercorvia]

So he's ok with a single-classed Druid being heaps and bounds better than a single classed Fighter so long as his arbitrary conception of "character roles" is fulfilled? That person is not fit to be a 3.5 DM IMO.

While I find his lack of system mastery disturbing, if everyone who wasn't 'fit to' play/dm/whatever actually didn't, I wouldn't have nearly so many people to argue with.

[Keithicus]

Hah, I go to sleep and my DM is being accused of being a douchebag.

I suppose I should have clarified better, he was speaking more as a lighthearted jab than anything else. Then I intentionally made it a real joke by telling him I was going to fighter 2/barbarian 1/druid 1/cleric 1.

Regardless of the lack of 'system mastery' that he (and I) have we weren't really getting mad at each other.

Back to the archer build. Currently from what I read and my party's composition, the main option I'm considering is fighter 4/druid 1. Weapon specialization coupled with a weak animal companion and I'd be able to use my spells to help heal after combat so that the cleric can do more (currently our cleric is being highly protective of her spells so that people aren't left dying left and right). I'm also sure that the (much less accurate) melee would appreciate a flanker.

Effectively I'd be a ranger without taking any levels in ranger :smallamused:

What animal companion would have a chance at being competent when I'm a first level druid at 5th ECL? My head says that a wolf would be useful but I'm not sure if the lack of hit dice would be a big deal.

[ericgrau]

True survivability is king in a companion that's behind in levels. A camel or heavy horse has more HP. The camel is slightly better at single attacks, the horse is slightly better at full attacks, but neither is going to hit much anyway and I think a camel sounds cooler. It also makes a great pack animal for carrying stuff. OTOH you're more likely to convince your DM to let you buy barding for a horse than a camel, but ask about both. Ooh, and either opens you up for mounted archery, which is viable with or without the mounted feats. 3 foot halls would be a problem but note that large creatures can slowly squeeze through 5 foot halls. If that's too hard a riding dog has a couple more HP but you need to make it a war trained mount before it can use its trip, unlike the wolf.

When you get the companion don't forget handle animal ranks and try to take a week off to teach it a second trick. If you want it as a war trained mount to ride you need a total of 6 tricks, which takes 5 weeks (druids get 1 trick free).

[dextercorvia]

True survivability is king in a companion that's behind in levels. A camel or heavy horse has more HP. The camel is slightly better at single attacks, the horse is slightly better at full attacks, but neither is going to hit much anyway and I think a camel sounds cooler. It also makes a great pack animal for carrying stuff. OTOH you're more likely to convince your DM to let you buy barding for a horse than a camel, but ask about both. Ooh, and either opens you up for mounted archery, which is viable with or without the mounted feats. 3 foot halls would be a problem but note that large creatures can slowly squeeze through 5 foot halls. If that's too hard a riding dog has a couple more HP but you need to make it a war trained mount before it can use its trip, unlike the wolf.

When you get the companion don't forget handle animal ranks and try to take a week off to teach it a second trick. If you want it as a war trained mount to ride you need a total of 6 tricks, which takes 5 weeks (druids get 1 trick free).

Riding Dogs are automatically war trained.



Dog, Riding

This Medium dog is specially trained to carry a Small humanoid rider. It is brave in combat like a warhorse. You take no damage when you fall from a riding dog.


Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.

[Red_Dog]

One of my players is playing a favoured soul with an Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). High Dex, Moderate Cha (for spells) and an okay strength is all you really need. Divine Might and some other buffs give you ridiculous to attack.

Don't fall for the trap of favoured souls where you put into Wisdom as well. That just raises the DC's. Pick self buffs and you will never need it!

Ok first of all, completely OFF topic. Ryulin => THANK YOU SO MUCH! The energy bow link lead me to find out a cartoon from my childhood back in freaking Russia!!! I forgot ages ago how it was called, so yeah. Dude thx ^^.

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Now more on bloody point.

PHB games are insanely difficult for lower tiers because tier3 almost vanishes, and tier 4 drops almost fully to five. The next time DM calls you a manchkin, ask your caster player in this campaign to visit this forum and play a proper god wizard. Never the less, lets get to optimizin.
*Under assumption of lvl5*

My recommended
Fighter 4/Barb 1
Feats: Point Blank, Rapid, Precise, Focus, [Quick Draw or Improved Initiative or Weapon Finesse], Weapon Spec

Why the Quick Draw? So you can abuse Tower Shield! ^^. Remember that caring one does not give you penalties. You will be carrying a medium load (sadly), but in combat if you need to run, you a free-action drop it. If you need cover(someone is getting to you), draw it as move-action and turtle. If they let go, drop it as free action, draw a back Up bow as Free action and full attack. ^^

Also that feat slot really has no use. You can replace it with something like Weapon Finesse so you could use light weapons in melee ok.
(same variant)
Fighter4/Ranger 1 & Fighter 4/Rouge 1 <= They do exact SAME thing. Rouge makes you loose 1 BAB, but its not as important if lvl6 won't be achieved.
Both of them give you ONE(especially rouge) full skill of their list. I would take UMD(even with crappy charisma, trying to meddle with wands is a nice idea) or ONE dex based skills (hide, move, slieght of hand, etc.) or ONE skill that party really needs (may be a face skill, besides Intimidate which you should have been upping, or Disable Device? or Search?)
========================>
Skill "heavier"
Fight 2/Rouge 3
Feats: Quick Draw or Improved Initiative or Weapon Finesse
You won't get to get that "sweet" weapon spec, but instead you get 3(!) full skills that you might want! And all at the price of weapon spec and one BAB. Skill abuse can be absolutely earth turning if you know how to do it. The best thing about this is that you will also get 2d6 sneak, evasion and trap finding. And guess what? You STILL can abuse Tower Shield! ^^ You just have to strap it to your back and drop when you expect to use your evasion ^^

So I hope I helped. I am not sure if I brought anything new (I didn't see tower shield and skill abuse thru Cntrl+F, sry if I am repeating someone) but hopefully I did at least a bit ^^

Good luck! ^^

[Keithicus]

@Red_Dog I don't want to use silly rules exploits like tower shields and don't want to be above a light load (unless maybe I take barb for the movement speed to counteract it). I've been benefiting from being able to move my full 30ft a round in some of the situations we've encountered.

The other characters already have skills fairly down well (we have a ranger and bard already) and I don't want to compete with other skillmonkies too much.

At the moment I'm just bouncing back and forth rapidly between options for my 5th level (and weapon specialization looks to be the best static damage boost for me, as opposed to abilities that take up a round of combat to use or whatnot). Maybe I'll consider monk for the save boosts :smalltongue:

Also, wouldn't I still be able to just train up my handle animal/ride and buy a warhorse if I wanted a mount?

[ericgrau]

Riding Dogs are automatically war trained.


If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks


Weird. Likewise the ride skill only says warhorses and warponies. The druid description says companions only get 1 trick. I'm going to guess purchased riding dogs are war trained. Nature boy needs to train that dog he pulled out of the forest himself. Otherwise this is a big case of who the heck did the training. Or if you want to be super literal then besides the contradiction between the druid entry and handle animal, there is no handle animal entry listed for how to train something for "war" and riding dogs can never learn how to trip.



Why the Quick Draw? So you can abuse Tower Shield! ^^.
Sadly there's an additional move action to ready or loose a shield in addition to drawing it. Besides that quick draw does not grant quick sheathe. No flying DMGs needed here.

If you only need a healer then a ranger 1 can still use cure light wound wands. Or take druid 1 and get the wand, whichever. If you wanted to heal during combat, then don't, cure light wounds isn't worth the round at level 5. Normally I'd contradict popular opinion and say level appropriate cure spells are worth it in emergencies. But even if someone's at -3 and dropping you'd have better luck attacking the guy assaulting him than healing him for 1d8+1 and watching him die anyway.

[Red_Dog]

The other characters already have skills fairly down well (we have a ranger and bard already) and I don't want to compete with other skillmonkies too much.

Well w/e you say. I usually stand by the line => Unless we have a factotum, there could never be enough skills ^^ I still think that the only bang for your buck that you will get out of Dex in CORE games are skills that base on it. But as I've said, its just a suggestion ^^ Good luck in crawl regardless than! ^^

*Note that the towershield gag, is actually much more characterful than cheesy. Soldiers often used Large shields as mobile cover to shoot from behind protection. It worked in HtH about as well as you'd think, but vs range retaliation it was quite a good trick. In D&D sadly this trick is reversed, but non the less pretty flavorful if you ask me ^^ It looked something like this as far as I know=>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Balestriere1.jpg
Similar to what Police does with a Riot Shield I think...
*

=======================================>
To ericgrau

Sadly there's an additional move action to ready or loose a shield in addition to drawing it. Besides that quick draw does not grant quick sheathe. No flying DMGs needed here.

I went back and re-read this. I guess in light of this, you won't need Quickdraw because this can be done without it ^^ hehehe. To unhook a shield you need a move action and to drop it is free action. But because you have +1BAB already you can just sheath a weapon & strap on a shield all part of a move action. I mean, at least I couldn't find why couldn't you.

I think if you were to make a withdraw action [so you won't get AoO'ed] you can turtle at the end, as its all part of a "move". However that is taking words pretty literally... ^^

[Keithicus]

Well w/e you say. I usually stand by the line => Unless we have a factotum, there could never be enough skills ^^ I still think that the only bang for your buck that you will get out of Dex in CORE games are skills that base on it. But as I've said, its just a suggestion ^^ Good luck in crawl regardless than! ^^

Yeah, In hindsight I probably would have benefited more with the character by taking a 16 in dex, 15 in str, then 11 in wis, and getting a composite longbow once I got the gold would have contributed a LOT more to my damage output. the overall +1 to hit really isn't mattering (I'm currently doing most of my archery within 30 feet, with weapon focus, an 18 dex, and with either a bard song or bless, so even with Rapid Shot I'm sitting at a +7 to hit note: numbers might be off) So the extra damage would have been pretty good.

The Sneak Attack damage is nice, but I'd only be willing to go with it if someone else in the party is willing to work with me to actually utilize it outside of the first round of combat. And considering that this is the first game (at least the first game in a long time) for my fellow players it might be a good idea to help show the other players that there's a bit more than "do damage, heal, and maybe give a small buff" that can be utilized.

My decision seems like it'll be decided by a conversation with the DM and the casters in the group. If the DM (also new really) wants to wait on utilizing more of the combat mechanics I'll probably just go to fighter 4 and take weapon spec

[ericgrau]

True given your low damage a little str would have been helpful. Normally it's barely worth much more than masterwork but in your case you might look into getting a +1 bow. If you make it to level 6 you could go for gauntlets of str rather than gloves of dex.

Another thing to consider might be a few magic arrows to save for the final boss fight (just once), especially bane arrows if you know what's coming. Otherwise I might do sleep, merciful, shocking or frost arrows. At least 6 arrows. Regardless don't forget to vary arrow metal type to get around DR.

At level 5 you could also ask the party caster nicely to prepare flame arrow and buff you right before entering a dungeon. It's less useful in the wilderness though because of its limited duration.