PrC from a dwarf fighter [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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shuikage

2012-02-13, 03:41 PM

Just trying to get a good idea on what to prestige into from a dwarf fighter. It'll be 10th level befor getting to do so as our dm is limiting it to that level befor we can. We can use just about any of the books from the core, complete, and races of series. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Flickerdart

2012-02-13, 04:34 PM

Kensai (CWar) is pretty solid - you get to enhance your weapon using XP instead of GP, meaning that you have that much more stuff left over for cool magic gear. The move-action +8 strength isn't exactly a deal-breaker either. Divine Crusader (CDiv) will give you 9th level divine spells from one domain, while keeping your BAB full and your hit dice awesome.

shuikage

2012-02-13, 04:55 PM

Im likeing the kensai and being a ki warlord will be a nice thing to have.

herrhauptmann

2012-02-13, 05:11 PM

Well I hope the DM is also limiting casters...

Anyway, what are your stats? What is the general idea of your character besides "I'm a dwarf!"

Deepwarden is good, grants con to AC. (Races of stone)
Not for int-dump dwarves, especially when their base class is fighter rather than ranger.

Deepstone sentinel is a nice one from ToB. Anothr of the "invulnerable line of defense" dwarven prestige classes. But is a lot better than dwarven defender.
Makes it harder for people to get past you, via difficult terrain. Also encourages you to look into ToB, which automatically raises your power.

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-13, 06:31 PM

Could you tell us more about your build, your alternate class features chosen, your stats, your feats, what you are focusing on, and such?

erikun

2012-02-13, 06:42 PM

Dwarf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#dwarfParagon) can be nice. Kensai, as mention, can grant you a free +5 enhancement to any weapon and Concentration to reflex saves with only five levels. Deepwarden gives CON to AC, which is also nice if you've been focusing on that stat.

War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) is actually really nice compared to the base fighter. It can learn powers like Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm), Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm), Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm), and several useful class abilities. It's not as useful if you don't have at least decent Wisdom, though.

Myth

2012-02-13, 07:09 PM

Please don't be a Fighter...

hex0

2012-02-13, 07:17 PM

Please don't be a Fighter...

Probably too late.

Warmind requires a lot of cross class skill bull for a fighter :smallmad:

Deepwarden is just great....

Even Dwarven Paragon is better than fighter.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-13, 07:18 PM

Please don't be a Fighter...

:smallsigh:

It's fine. Tier 5 does not mean useless.

erikun

2012-02-13, 07:25 PM

Just a random thought, but if your fighter is using a dwarven weapon, you could get (easier) access into Exotic Weapon Master. It might not have that much to offer, but 1.5x STR and 2x Power Attack with a one-handed waraxe (if I recall correctly) could be pretty handy.

hex0

2012-02-13, 07:29 PM

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-13, 07:29 PM

Coidzor

2012-02-13, 07:31 PM

:smallsigh:

It's fine. Tier 5 does not mean useless.

Still, there's probably better things he can be doing than taking 10 whole levels of fighter unless he really wants to be a zhentarim fighter fear build.

OP: 1. What do you want to do?

2. What are your restrictions on multiclassing before you can PrC? Classes like Rogue will add in some versatility by giving you some skillpoints for qualifying for PrCs in addition to boosting your reflex save and giving evasion(then again, so does 2 levels of Monk which can net you some feats more easily than your fighter levels).

If you have a fair intelligence modifier, you could take a couple of levels in wizard and then take PrCs that combine fighting and casting together, such as the Runesmith, the Abjurant Champion, The Eldritch Knight, the Sacred Exorcist, the Knight Phantom, amongst others.

Of course, if you have a good charisma, you could take a couple of levels in a skillful class and then go into something like Suel Arcanamach to pick up some very useful self-buffing capabilities. And after 10th you're going to really want to be able to provide some of your own buffs, even if you are buying off Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments from the party's main casters by buying them pearls of power to cover the cost of casting it on you.

shuikage

2012-02-14, 03:51 AM

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-14, 06:44 AM

Alright so as of right now the character isn't made im just looking into it. Im not all about being full optimizing on it either just want it to be able to take a hit and still be able to dish out some damage.

Then you don't want Fighter, unless you know how to actually make the class do those things... it takes some work. Surviving more than a single round of melee against creatures in the midgame... often takes more oomph than the Fighter brings to the table. Not to mention presenting a viable threat, or -- god forbid -- actually attempting to *tank* things...

Person_Man

2012-02-14, 08:55 AM

I too suggest playing something with more resources then a Fighter. But here's my stock Fighter advice, in case you choose to stick with it.

Fighter is actually quite a respectable Tier 4 choice up to ECL 11 if you know what you're doing. The keys are alternate class features (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113.html) and careful feat selection (see combos above).

At level 1, Fighters get the Tower Shield for free. This in itself is useful. Races of Stone also lets you trade it away for Exotic Shield Proficiency, which has several uses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6848292). I suggest using it for a Gnome Battle Cloak, which is essentially a shield you wear on your back, which is essentially a free Animated shield. Or you can take the Extreme Shield if you want +3 AC without a To-Hit penalty (but don't care about making shield bash attacks). If you want a mounted build (which is one of your best core-ish options) then I suggest a Riding Shield.

At levels 2 and 6, Dungonscape lets you trade away feats for the Dungeoncrasher ability, which gives you massive damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object. As others have opined, the easiest way to abuse this is through the Knockback feat. Check out Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) and the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248). If you want to be less abusive and/or don't want to be a Goliath, then I suggest you be a Raptorian or Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) for free flight (though it doesn't kick in until ECL 12). This lets you move above enemies, so that you can Bull Rush them into the floor. You can also get free Bull Rush attempts from the Shield of the Severed Hand (Complete Divine pg 102 or MIC) and/or Brutal Surge weapons (MIC). It's also worth mentioning that Dungeoncrasher damage is so high that even a single mundane Bull Rush per turn can kill most enemies.

A nifty web ad on (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) gives you various buffs to your ability to Demoralize. The most important kicks in at 11th level, which lets you Demoralize as a Swift Action. This can be a powerful tool (http://boards-test-dev.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167), especially when combined with the Imperious Command feat (Drow of the Underdark) which makes Demoralized enemies Cower (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cowering).

Put that together, and you get respectable defense, strong offense, and two forms of battlefield control (Bull Rush and Fear). Pretty solid for any low to mid level melee build.

Telonius

2012-02-14, 09:35 AM

Just in general? Even in a low-op game, Fighter is best to take for a few levels only, then either multi-classing or PrCing out when you have all of the feats you need. (Don't be fooled by some of the Fighter Feats in the PHB; Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are not nearly as good as you might think).

Knight is a fairly good class for Dwarves, and about as solid as any other melee-only class outside of Tome of Battle. Kensai is a great PrC. So is Horizon Walker. (Also full-BAB).

shuikage

2012-02-14, 10:36 AM

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-14, 12:32 PM

Ok so just got some more guidance and since we have people who like to do completely op characters. We are now limited to basic classes in the phb but can use any book for prc. Sooo fighter is looking to be my starter class but can multiclass after level one so with that prolly do fighter then switch over to knight then after I hit 11 then can prc.

Worst thing your DM could do. PHB has Planar Ally/Binding, Natural Spell, Grease, Divine Power, Righteous Might, among many other things and the classes that can use them. Sure, Celerity is nice, but Contingent Dimension Door is just a couple levels later. Overland Flight, Mirror Image, Displacement, Stoneskin, Astral Projection plus Plane Shift, Plane Shift...

And that's just if you're limited to core spells. You only mentioned being limited to core classes.

See if you can get Tome of Battle allowed. Play a crusader/deepstone sentinel.

Telonius

2012-02-14, 12:39 PM

Ok so just got some more guidance and since we have people who like to do completely op characters. We are now limited to basic classes in the phb but can use any book for prc. Sooo fighter is looking to be my starter class but can multiclass after level one so with that prolly do fighter then switch over to knight then after I hit 11 then can prc.

Since you're a Dwarf already, and sounds like you want to PrC at 11, it would probably be best for you to take two levels of something other than Knight. Knight's Armor Mastery (Heavy) will do nothing for you. I'd suggest taking one level in Ranger (for the extra skill points at 1st, saves, and spell list), then one of Fighter (for the Feat). Then take Knight until you want to PrC.

Really too bad you can't go Knight20, the capstone is one of the best in the game.

shuikage

2012-02-14, 01:07 PM

@ jade dragon: we will be able to use any other class just from the very beggining he is forcing us to use basic races and classes in the phb. but as soon as we get to level 2 we can multiclass into anything we want really. He also put it to where we cant prestige until level 11.

@ telonius: so what your pretty much saying is being like a 1 ranger/1 fighter/8 knight/ then going into like deepstone sentinel prolly.

Coidzor

2012-02-14, 05:01 PM

@ jade dragon: we will be able to use any other class just from the very beggining he is forcing us to use basic races and classes in the phb. but as soon as we get to level 2 we can multiclass into anything we want really. He also put it to where we cant prestige until level 11.

If you can literally go into any base class after first level, then you want to go Crusader. Especially if, as you say, the rest of the group knows one or two things about optimization.

Take hits and deal them back. With gusto.

Big Fau

2012-02-14, 05:21 PM

Divine Crusader (CDiv) will give you 9th level divine spells from one domain, while keeping your BAB full and your hit dice awesome.

Divine Crusader does not have Full BAB unless the domain you took has Divine Power.

Flickerdart

2012-02-14, 06:18 PM

Divine Crusader does not have Full BAB unless the domain you took has Divine Power.
Doesn't it? Damn, I keep forgetting that PrCs with high BAB entry sometimes then decide that you don't really need that much BAB after all.

Big Fau

2012-02-14, 06:37 PM

Doesn't it? Damn, I keep forgetting that PrCs with high BAB entry sometimes then decide that you don't really need that much BAB after all.

While 3 points doesn't make much of a difference in the long run, it is annoying as hell.

shuikage

2012-02-14, 07:47 PM

Ok so looks like fighter 1/crusader 10/ deepstone sentinel till ?? As im not sure what level we will get to. Any feats that would be a good must have?

Big Fau

2012-02-14, 07:57 PM

Ok so looks like fighter 1/crusader 10/ deepstone sentinel till ?? As im not sure what level we will get to. Any feats that would be a good must have?

You should qualify for DSS at Fighter 1/Crusader 9, thus allowing you to take all 10 levels of DSS. Crusader 10 is nice and all, but you only need the 9th level to learn 5th level maneuvers.

Coidzor

2012-02-14, 08:00 PM

While 3 points doesn't make much of a difference in the long run, it is annoying as hell.

Well said.

herrhauptmann

2012-02-14, 08:01 PM

Look at the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel.
The ones that let you stand up without taking an AOO are nice. And since you'll have 13+ ranks in balance. Also twisted charge. Though the ranks in tumble for that will be a little pricey.

Power attack, Cleave, Leap attack and shocktrooper for damage. They're what I think of as a minicharger, rather than the ubercharger.

If you've got a dwarven waraxe in 2 hands, then a level in exotic weapon master gets you a little more Power attack. But requires Weapon Focus. :(

Don't forget to look at your maneuvers. Particularly the crusader only ones.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-14, 08:10 PM

Ok so looks like fighter 1/crusader 10/ deepstone sentinel till ?? As im not sure what level we will get to. Any feats that would be a good must have?

Fighter 1 crusader 9 or fighter 2 crusader 8, into Deepstone Sentinel. That's good all they way 'til 20th. Grab a reach weapon like a glaive or guisarme, boost your dex, and take Stand Still and Combat Reflexes. If guisarme and with 13+ int, you can also grab Improved Trip to deal with anything small that has good reflex saves. Get a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes for melee.

Fighter 2/crusader 8 has the same IL as fighter 1/crusader 9, but you can use your crusader 8 stance on a level 5 stance, although the level 5 crusader stances aren't that good, especially since the Devoted Spirit auras are level 6.

Grab Thicket of Blades for sure, but for your other two stances, good choices are Stonefoot Stance (okay, it's not GOOD, but it's better than most Stone Dragon stances. Stone Dragon stances SUCK, but you need one to get into DS), Roots of the Mountain (again, not good, but prevents any big guys from pushing you around), Iron Guard's Glare, and Martial Spirit.

shuikage

2012-02-15, 05:40 AM

Since deepstone sentinel only has 5 levels would it be good to go back into crusader?

herrhauptmann

2012-02-15, 11:36 AM

Since deepstone sentinel only has 5 levels would it be good to go back into crusader?

Probably, but 2 levels in deepwarden wouldn't be a bad decision either.

Rausdower

2012-02-15, 01:02 PM

Races of Stone also lets you trade it away for Exotic Shield Proficiency

I'm looking in RoS but I'm not seeing the page this is on.

EDIT: Nvm, was looking at Exotic Armor Proficiency initially instead of shield ><

shuikage

2012-02-18, 11:25 AM

OK so here are my stats for my dwarf. Str 17 dex 16 con 20 into 15 Wis 14 cha 13. Going to take power attack and cleave at the moment.

hex0

2012-02-18, 01:04 PM

OK so here are my stats for my dwarf. Str 17 dex 16 con 20 into 15 Wis 14 cha 13. Going to take power attack and cleave at the moment.

I'd suggest Endurance and Steadfast Determination (PH2)
instead and get into Deepwarden asap. Your CON is too high to not to.

Or Fist of the Forest.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-18, 01:19 PM

I'd suggest Endurance and Steadfast Determination (PH2)
instead and get into Deepwarden asap. Your CON is too high to not to.

Neither of those are fighter bonus feats.

Endurance and Power Attack is probably better though.

herrhauptmann

2012-02-18, 01:26 PM

Neither of those are fighter bonus feats.

Endurance and Power Attack is probably better though.

Fortunately he's got 4 other feats that can go towards that. Levels 1,3,6,9. While Power Attack can be gained from a fighter feat, or a ranger alt combat style.
Endurance alone sucks:
+4 on a variety of fortitude saves? Yeah...
Sleep in medium armor? 500gp lets you sleep in HEAVY armor without penalty. (Dungeonscape and MiC)

jaybird

2012-02-18, 01:42 PM

IIRC you need Endurance for Steadfast Determination (Con to Will)?

hex0

2012-02-18, 01:43 PM

Fortunately he's got 4 other feats that can go towards that. Levels 1,3,6,9. While Power Attack can be gained from a fighter feat, or a ranger alt combat style.
Endurance alone sucks:
+4 on a variety of fortitude saves? Yeah...
Sleep in medium armor? 500gp lets you sleep in HEAVY armor without penalty. (Dungeonscape and MiC)

Never said Endurance is useful, but it is a prereq for the two awesome things I suggested (Deepwarden and Steadfast Determination).

Though you never know when you are going to have to hold your breath or get stranded in the middle of no-where. Endurance has actually saved my ass a few times...though I was a Ranger so I didn't intentionally select it. :smallannoyed:

Edit: and it gives bonus to many Constitution checks, which are NOT fort saves and are harder to boost.