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7RED7
2012-02-13, 06:31 PM
For a while now, I've been having players roll 1d8 and add 10 when rolling attributes at character generation. It's actually saved a fair amount of time in both dealing with whining and getting character sheets the hell done.

It keeps starting abilities between 11-18. Players feel super special "my fighter has a 12 CHA!", and I still know what I'm dealing with.

My players are more likely to qualify for a wider range of feats, and try new things.

I have the potential to only lose 1/3rd-1/4th the number of dice I would with the other methods.

If somebody wants a negative modifier for whatever reason then that's cool too.

If you're shooting for a particular power level game you just change the constant value up or down (1d8 + 8 for more basic play) (1d8 + 12 or more for super heroic dewds).

Has anyone else tried something similar?

Noctis Vigil
2012-02-13, 06:43 PM
In one particular game I GMed, I had my players roll 1D20 for each stat at character creation, with one reroll allowed (so if they rolled a 13, a 10, a 7, a 17, a 15 and a 3, they could reroll the 3). This worked...sort of OK. We had a very wide range of abilities that game. The characters were great, I wish that game was still going.

The main method I use on all my games now is pretty simple: one stat of your choice is 18 (before racial mods), and you roll 4d6 drop lowest for the others. Tends to equate out to around 40 point buy (I hate point buy :smallannoyed:).

As for your method, I like it. I tend to GM high-power gestalt games, and this would be fantastic for that.

Zeta Kai
2012-02-13, 07:45 PM
I'd prefer a 1d10+8 instead, for a bit more swing, but conceptually, I like this.

7RED7
2012-02-13, 08:16 PM
That's cool too. I just like the idea of streamlining anything that doesn't absolutely need to be complicated.

prufock
2012-02-13, 08:29 PM
Two effects this will have statistically.
1) The stat distribution will tend to be flat from 11-18. That means each number in that range occurs with equal frequency.
2) The average stat increases from about 12.25 (4d6-best3) to 14.5. If this is not a concern for you, cool, but just be aware that this will produce a bit more powerful characters.

Why don't you just use point buy? For a regular-power game on par with 4d6-best3, 25 points is standard, increase as you see fit. I like 28 points, personally, though in the game I'm currently running I gave the players 32 points to use because there are only 3 of them (I'm calculating encounters based on a 4-person party of the same level).

7RED7
2012-02-13, 09:11 PM
The little boost in stats is not a huge concern for me. If I was running a commoner campaign then sure, I'd go with a lower average. Simply going from +10 to +8 should drop that a little closer to the average you're quoting.

I don't use point buy because it takes longer to explain with the scaling costs, and people always opt to roll their stats. I've even offered a "finish your character right damn now" rate of 18,16,14,12,12,10, and they still want to roll.

Nighthawk_986
2012-02-13, 09:42 PM
Two effects this will have statistically.
1) The stat distribution will tend to be flat from 11-18. That means each number in that range occurs with equal frequency.
2) The average stat increases from about 12.25 (4d6-best3) to 14.5. If this is not a concern for you, cool, but just be aware that this will produce a bit more powerful characters.

Here's an idea I have that would allow for stats that aren't as "flat". If a player would roll an 8, they would have the option to reroll with a d12 instead of a d8 (increasing range to 11-22). Also, if a player would roll a 1, they have the option to reroll, but it would be with a d4 and they only add 9 instead of 10 (decreasing range to 10-14, but it would allow a 50% chance to roll higher than the original roll). Think that that would be any better?


I don't use point buy because it takes longer to explain with the scaling costs, and people always opt to roll their stats. I've even offered a "finish your character right damn now" rate of 18,16,14,12,12,10, and they still want to roll.

Lol. I would too. There's a chance to get better stats if one decides to roll. Although, when my friends n i decide to do something similar, we do "18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12". It's a rare occasion for us to have a negative stat.

7RED7
2012-02-13, 10:50 PM
I'd probably only use the first method with my veteran players, as that would get confusing for the newbies, but I like where your head's at on that.

As far as the array is concerned; I do my best to keep the players from going MAD (at least the ones who give a hoot about that sort of thing), so 1 stat that is most likely going to be a 20-22 after racials, a secondary stat that would probably stay a 16 but could go 18 with racials, a 14 for the next 'nice to have' stat like CON or INT depending on the build, a couple 'not zeroes', and a zero (because something has to be average for crying out loud), usually seems to do just fine.

More power never hurts. Hell they don't know most of the monsters are double HP either, so it's a fair trade
^_^

bobthe6th
2012-02-13, 11:33 PM
I for one get twichy without even stats, and a little bit of tweaking...(and thus my favoritism of point buy arises...)

but this method looks fine. perhaps let a player chooses to move around the dice value? so 1d12, 1d10, 1d6, 1d4, and 2d2 or a smiler combination....

Nighthawk_986
2012-02-13, 11:50 PM
I'd probably only use the first method with my veteran players, as that would get confusing for the newbies, but I like where your head's at on that.

As far as the array is concerned; I do my best to keep the players from going MAD (at least the ones who give a hoot about that sort of thing), so 1 stat that is most likely going to be a 20-22 after racials, a secondary stat that would probably stay a 16 but could go 18 with racials, a 14 for the next 'nice to have' stat like CON or INT depending on the build, a couple 'not zeroes', and a zero (because something has to be average for crying out loud), usually seems to do just fine.

More power never hurts. Hell they don't know most of the monsters are double HP either, so it's a fair trade
^_^

Hehe. Fair enough and a "Touche!" to you good sir on both points lol. I can easily see how it would be confusing for the newbies for the dice suggestion. Didn't take that into account when I thought it up, but it was off the top of my head. I suppose if newbies were involved, it would be fair to the entire party if that rule would just be taken out. Thanks for the compliment anyways. :smallbiggrin:

7RED7
2012-02-14, 12:20 AM
@Bob, What do you mean by "Even Stats"? Straight 14's or something?
That idea for the die rolling is interesting. Combined with Nighthawk's re-roll on values, you could have die shenanigans not seen since our old hardcore monopoly group (gatorade coolers of mountain dew, halo shootouts over corporate partnership conflicts, and multi-colored d6's with a different rule for every permutation... it was star wars monopoly calvinball basically). I could see having the ability to crit on attribute rolls for demigod characters where fortune could have you rolling 3d20 for STR, or the 4E 'Brutal' ability placed on rolls for attributes in a certain class.

@ Nighthawk, You're welcome. :D
I generally let people do whatever they're comfortable with. But for introducing new players, or just getting with the hustle, you can't beat a single die roll for simplicity.

bobthe6th
2012-02-14, 12:49 AM
nah, just each ability be an even integer. 13 just feel bad, and 17s are a slap in the face...

Noctis Vigil
2012-02-14, 12:54 AM
(gatorade coolers of mountain dew, halo shootouts over corporate partnership conflicts, and multi-colored d6's with a different rule for every permutation... it was star wars monopoly calvinball basically).

This is quite possibly the most awesome thing I have heard all year.

I liked Zeta Kai's suggestion for increasing randomness. 1D8+10, or 1D10+8, or for real variance 1D12+6. Nighthawk, your idea of rerolls with D12s or D4s is interesting. I've no head for numbers to figure it out, so it has me wondering how that would change the average stat configuration.

I will definitely be using this next time a newbie is at my table (or in my chat or PbP).

Seerow
2012-02-14, 12:55 AM
Personally I prefer a little more bell curvy. If going with something along these lines, I'd do 10+2d4, or 6+2d6.

Ashtagon
2012-02-14, 12:57 AM
3d6 six times, arrange to taste. Then replace anything less than 8 with an 8. Then give the player enough points to spend to make it equivalent to a 36-point buy. If somehow he rolled higher than 36 points, he must take away from the rolled stats to make it equivalent to 36 points. Note that players either add (only) or subtract (only), depending on how good the original rolled result was.

Replace 36 with your balance point of choice, and allow final results to deviate by a point or two.

Seerow
2012-02-14, 01:00 AM
3d6 six times, arrange to taste. Then replace anything less than 8 with an 8. Then give the player enough points to spend to make it equivalent to a 36-point buy. If somehow he rolled higher than 36 points, he must take away from the rolled stats to make it equivalent to 36 points. Note that players either add (only) or subtract (only), depending on how good the original rolled result was.

Replace 36 with your balance point of choice, and allow final results to deviate by a point or two.

If you're going to allow adding or subtracting to make a 36 point buy... what's the point of all the rolling? I'm failing to see how this actually ends up any different from just using a 36 point buy, unless they roll something really weird (like 2 18s and 4 8s).

Ashtagon
2012-02-14, 03:08 AM
If you're going to allow adding or subtracting to make a 36 point buy... what's the point of all the rolling? I'm failing to see how this actually ends up any different from just using a 36 point buy, unless they roll something really weird (like 2 18s and 4 8s).

The point is, the dice rolling forces some level of randomness. The 'better' your dice rolls, the fewer points you have to spend on boosting a single stat (or 2) to 18.

bobthe6th
2012-02-14, 08:07 AM
At the same time, a lot of classes need a high stat(pretty much any kind of caster)... most need at least a 16 to work. I for one am annoyed by chaos in my base charicter...

Also, those demigods of one stat still have suck for all other stats... and have to make it through lower power levels.

Deepbluediver
2012-02-14, 09:46 AM
The DM's I've played with never really liked any of the roll d6 methods because it seemed like every time we tried it, without exception, some one would luck out on every roll and some one else would fail completely. It's kind of hard to achieve game balance when one person has three 18's and no ability penalties, and another player has no score above 14.

Then one day the DM made the mistake of asking whether the players would prefer a point buy, or an ability array for character creation and HOLY HELL you've never seen such an argument. You would have thought that the DM asked us to decide the fate of the humanity.

Eventually, to keep things from spiraling (more) out of control, the DM just said the each individual could pick which one they wanted to use. The choices where either a 25-point buy, or the 4e ability array (which is the equivalent of a 30-point buy, but tops out at no score higher than 16).
This gave the SAD players the ability to get their INT/WIS up to 18, but the MAD classes got an advantage of having higher total scores.

I'd love to say it worked wonderfully, but that game was just a one-shot, and the DM never again made the mistake of asking a group of players to agree on something. :smallbiggrin:

Debihuman
2012-02-14, 11:51 AM
For a while now, I've been having players roll 1d8 and add 10 when rolling attributes at character generation. It's actually saved a fair amount of time in both dealing with whining and getting character sheets the hell done.

There was actual whining involved?

If fairness in abilities that important, I would have told them to use the elite monster array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.) They assign the numbers as they like and then adjust for racial modifiers. That levels the playing field far more than any random die rolls.

Debby

Nighthawk_986
2012-02-14, 10:00 PM
This is quite possibly the most awesome thing I have heard all year.

I liked Zeta Kai's suggestion for increasing randomness. 1D8+10, or 1D10+8, or for real variance 1D12+6. Nighthawk, your idea of rerolls with D12s or D4s is interesting. I've no head for numbers to figure it out, so it has me wondering how that would change the average stat configuration.

Agreed on how awesome of a statement that was lol. Now, as to help you out (and anyone else out there who needs it), I'll post that statistics here. Although, I'm gonna amend a small part of it.

Now, if a DM decides to use the method of 10+1d8, they would normally have the chance to roll stats that range from 11-18. So, a minimum of a +0 modifier to a +4 maximum. If that DM so chooses, they can also add a choice for those who roll a 1 or an 8.

Should someone roll a 1, they have the choice to either keep that roll, thus making that roll an 11, or they can roll a d4 and add only 9 instead of 10 (9+1d4). The range of this new roll would be 10-13. This allows the player a 50% chance to do better. Not by much, but everyone can agree that a +1 is better than a +0.

Should someone roll an 8, again, they have a choice. They can either keep it, or they can roll a d12 and add 11 to that roll (11+1d12). This would make the new range 12-23. Now, unlike the previous one, there is a chance to get a score that has a lower modifier than if you had decided to keep that 8 you had originally rolled. However, there's a 50% chance that you will roll 18 again or even higher. It'd be worth the risk I would think. Then again, I'm a bit of a gambler with these kind of things :smallbiggrin:.


Personally I prefer a little more bell curvy. If going with something along these lines, I'd do 10+2d4, or 6+2d6.

The 10+2d4 would decrease the range from 11-18 to 12-18. Not exactly anything to sneeze at because it guarantees everyone a modifier of at least +1. 6+2d6, on the other hand, would have a range of 8-18. I would definitely go with that.

Btw, one thing I'd like to add. Another way that my friends and I roll is that we roll 4d6, add the top 3, and reroll 1's. That allows a range of 6-18.

Seerow
2012-02-14, 10:11 PM
The 10+2d4 would decrease the range from 11-18 to 12-18. Not exactly anything to sneeze at because it guarantees everyone a modifier of at least +1. 6+2d6, on the other hand, would have a range of 8-18. I would definitely go with that.


Maybe 8+1d4+1d6? Then you still have your 10-18 range, but with a slight curve weighting it towards 13.


As for other rolling systems: I personally generally use a randomized point buy. The player gets 4d4 (4-16 avg 10) + 20, and uses the value for their point buy.

I also kind of like having a point buy with 1d3-1 added to each attribute that is 16 or lower. Attributes must be picked prior to rolling, and the amount added goes in order. So a Wizard could choose to put 18 points into int for a sure thing, or he could go for a 16 or 17, and hope for a lucky roll to bring him up to an 18. This helps make the scores feel a little more dynamic without adding a huge amount of variance, and helps reward characters who spread out their attributes more.

A system someone posted in a recent topic on the system that I liked was making a matrix. You roll 4d6 drop lowest 36 times, and arrange it in 6 rows of 6. You then choose one line (horizontal, vertical, or diagonal) and use that as your array. You can even have the whole party pick from the same matrix and still have a diverse array of stats.

Amechra
2012-02-14, 11:04 PM
I kinda like doing 3d6 drop lowest +6 for each stat, with the ability to make one of those rolls 4d6 drop two lowest +6.

Othesemo
2012-02-14, 11:19 PM
Personally, I prefer more bell-curvy stats. It shouldn't be as likely to be average is it is to be at near super-human levels. My personal method is to roll 4d6 drop the lowest 6 times, in order, and then allow the player six rerolls to spend as they will. It's fun to have the occasional bard with 16 str or rogue with above 8 wisdom.

Veklim
2012-02-15, 10:13 AM
Once upon a time I used an 80 point 1/1 point buy system, with a min 8/max 18 and that wasn't too shabby to begin with, but 2D6+6 has served me fine since then. It provides a random element with the same min/max range and an average of 13 (which is interestingly the same number most minimum stat requirements have for early feats). Due to this I don't make people roll them in order, but they're welcome to do so if they wish. I allow 1 re-roll of a 1 per array (which often ends up used on a roll where 1D6 was great and the other gave a 1, even if they already have a 1/1 on the list), and if the player dislikes they can scrap the lot and start again.

My players are used to seeing an 8 somewhere on their array, there's nothing wrong with a highly intelligent, reasonably strong and lithe young man, with a witty personality and BUGGER ALL common sense (wis dump ftw!), I've met many people like this over the years! :smalltongue: Players should learn to love their character's faults (bad stats and all) because they make the game a little more immersive by adding plausibility. Because of this I think ANY stat system should have the potential for a negative modifier, even heroes of legend and myth had flaws, in fact most of the really interesting ones had more than a few :smallamused:

So, finally getting to my point, 10+1D8 doesn't cut it for me, and 8+1D10 would only ever yeild a 9 at least (which would be promptly re-rolled I daresay). I personally want a bell curve for stats, and the potential for definite flaws, so I need more than 1 die. Whereas I see how this could be a really useful 'quick start tutorial' method for newbies, I don't think it offers enough for an experienced player who wants an interesting character to RP. :smallbiggrin:

Roderick_BR
2012-02-15, 12:57 PM
Personally I prefer a little more bell curvy. If going with something along these lines, I'd do 10+2d4, or 6+2d6.

I like 6+2d6. keeps you between 8 and 18, with an average to good chance of high rolls, since you technically turned one of the d6s in the 3d6 into an automatically max roll.

My group once did this: roll 3d6, re-roll 1s. Drop the lowest dice after that and just add that flat 6. The average was 15-16 for most characters.
Just rolling 2d6 looks good in the math.