[3.5] Dread Necro - Build thread

[Ryulin18]

Recently joined a group that's playing D&D 3.5 after playing 4th ed for the last year. Been through almost every book (got a folder of 51 books) and memorized most of it.

My first character is going to be a Dread Necromancer from Heroes Of Horror (because who doesn't want to be a necromancer first time). The group role plays and expects a back story which I will post later if anyone cares. Basics is my character is ill and seeks the money to become an undead.

36 point buy - because the DM likes powering the campaign for epic.

HUMAN @ 1st level
STR 12
DEX 16
CON 8
INT 14
WIS12
CHA 16

First feats include; Tomb Tainted soul and Spell focus necromancy
starting with 4d4x10gp (rolled 170)
Aiming for the necropolitan from Libris Mortis at 3. With a cost of 3000gp and 2 levels lost.

Thoughts or is this a solid build?

[Ryulin18]

Hmm...as a new person here. Is it worth deleting this thread because it has no replies in 30 minutes?

and how the hell do I do that?

[The Ogre]

Are you dead set on being human? Because Illumians(Races of Destiny) make really good dread necromancers due to their racial ability(Illumian word: Naenhoon) to partially imitate Divine Metamagic.

[golem1972]

A list of your allowed books would be very helpful. (The blood touched rite from whereon is handy for necromancers)
Also, your cheese tolerance. Necropolitan is kinda cheese friendly. (Not all agree this works because Necropolitans aren't made with a spell or effect). Pay a higher level dread necrosis to unread you in an unhallowed altared area with the appropriate corpsecrafter feats. The bonuses are significant. Blood touched rite will give you some bonuses including GPS and caster level for the cost of some con.

Otherwise, look up the dread necromancer handbook and have fun.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's only been 22 minutes, and you should give it at least a few hours. Some threads will hit the second page without a response, and could be because it just didn't jump out at anyone who may have had something to offer.


As for your character, if you can't start out with the Necropolitan template then you would probably be better off just not using it. Tomb-Tainted Soul will turn into a dead feat once you get it, and if your DM plans on taking the game into the epic levels you would miss out on the free Lich template if you're already undead. The exception to this is if the individual bestowing Necropolitan on your character is himself a Dread Necromancer of 8th+ level, possesses most or all of the Corpsecrafter line of feats in Libris Mortis, and performs the ritual within the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present. Much of that is questionable, since it's not specified whether the ritual itself is a Necromancy effect, but it would be safe to assume that it is.

Check out character flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), originally from Unearthed Arcana. You can get disadvantages that have little effect on what your character does to gain extra feats that directly benefit whatever he does. UA also has character traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm), which could also be of significant benefit.

Check out the feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon. If you gain knowledge of higher level spells earlier than normal, you would be able to cast that next higher level of spells that much earlier. If you somehow gain spells known apart from your Dread Necro spell list, you'll be able to use Dread Necro spell slots two at a time via Versatile Spellcaster to cast them. Early knowledge of the next higher level of the DN spell list can be achieved by having both Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell, or by taking Sanctum Spell or a Bloodline feat found in Dragon Compendium. Heighten Spell is particularly useful when combined with reserve feats, most of which are found in Complete Mage and Complete Champion.

Check out the feat Magical Training in Player's Guide to Faerun, that will give you a spellbook and the ability to learn Wizard spells and scribe them into it. Since these are spells your character knows, he can use Versatile Spellcaster to spend DN spell slots two at a time to cast them. This adds an extreme level of versatility to an otherwise limited character. Plus you can learn a spell of the next higher level than what you can cast, and still be able to cast it using Versatile Spellcaster, which will in turn grant you early knowledge of the next level of spells on the DN spell list.

Also note that with Versatile Spellcaster to gain early access to the next higher level of spells, your Advanced Learning choices can be higher level as well. Instead of gaining a 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 9th level spell, you'll be able to learn spells of up to 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level. The better choices for these include Death Armor, Revive Undead, and Awaken Undead in Spell Compendium, and Animate Dread Warrior in Unapproachable East.

You can also expand your spell list with the Arcane Disciple feat in Complete Divine, as long as your Wisdom score is high enough to cast a given spell. That's most useful for gaining Desecrate, via either the Evil or the Undeath domain. Desecrate is fairly necessary for anyone who's creating and/or making extensive use of undead.

Also, take a look at the Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook) if you haven't already done so.

[Madara]

I'm assuming you want to do the Army of the Dead route. If so, read K's Necromancy guide. Otherwise, you can go the debuff route.

[The Ogre]

You can also expand your spell list with the Arcane Disciple feat in Complete Divine, as long as your Wisdom score is high enough to cast a given spell. That's most useful for gaining Desecrate, via either the Evil or the Undeath domain. Desecrate is fairly necessary for anyone who's creating and/or making extensive use of undead.

I think choosing a Domain with more practical spells instead picking Evil or Undeath just for access to Desecrate would be the better route, imo. Time, Trickery, and Travel offer some good choices.

If I were the original poster, I'd just ask the DM if he/she would just add Desecrate to the DN's original spell list or just make Desecrate a necromancy spell for the sake of learning it with Advanced Learning.

[Ryulin18]

Wow! My first replies!

Okay. DM is allowing all 3.5 books except Tome of Battle and Exalted Deeds because he knows what they can do. "Just don't go mad" to quote him.

I don't think my wisdom is high enough to become an arcane disciple, Im aiming to have a few specialized undead over the 300 1HD skeletons, I've got a cleric in the party who can desecrate for me, not allowed flaws (broken says DM).

That versatile caster sounds amazing! Because all of my spells are pre generated does that mean I know them but can't cast them or Just don't know them yet?

BRB reading the handbook linked by Biffoniacus_Furiou

[Manateee]

That versatile caster sounds amazing! Because all of my spells are pre generated does that mean I know them but can't cast them or Just don't know them yet?
On one hand, the versatile spellcaster allows you to cast spells you know of a level higher than the slots you use on it. And gaining access to a new level of spells adds them to your spells known, so Versatile Spellcaster does grant access to new spell levels early.

On the other hand, you don't know spells of a certain level until you gain access to spells of that level, and versatile spellcaster specifies that you have to know the spells ahead of time to cast them with lower-level slots, so Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant access to new spell levels early.

Basically, ask your DM.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On one hand, the versatile spellcaster allows you to cast spells you know of a level higher than the slots you use on it. And gaining access to a new level of spells adds them to your spells known, so Versatile Spellcaster does grant access to new spell levels early.

On the other hand, you don't know spells of a certain level until you gain access to spells of that level, and versatile spellcaster specifies that you have to know the spells ahead of time to cast them with lower-level slots, so Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant access to new spell levels early.

Basically, ask your DM.

You could just presume the second one, and get Heighten Spell or a Bloodline feat or take Magical Training and learn a spell of that level, and get knowledge of the next higher level of spells regardless.

[Coidzor]

Vile Darkness is on the table but Exalted Deeds isn't, eh?

Well, you'll want to take a look at the bone and corpse creatures there then.

And then laugh at them and concentrate on getting animate dread warrior spellstitched into you or an undead familiar/elite minion of yours.

Also, check out the haunt shift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180612)(scroll down till you find JaronK discussing it in more depth, IIRC, he's the guy what put it on the map, though it requires reading multiple parts of the book) spell (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6315.0;wap2) in Libris Mortis (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9061.0;wap2), there's some fun things that you can get up to there, especially if you have a wizard friend in addition to your cleric friend.

If you're down to the point where you can't even get enough corpses for bloodhulks, there's always making your own animated objects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-175124.html) who, while not all that able to dish out damage, make excellent blockers due to having hardness rather than DR. Or more inventive things (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19862018/Expanding_on_Haunt_Shift?post_id=338125118), like carriages or mecha to carry you around/act as mounts.

It's a good use for rebuked undead if you don't find/make any undead that are worth rebuking for normal uses(like acting as spell batteries or slaymates or brains in jars for rebuking chains). Depending upon your DM's fancy, you may be able to use holy arrows to reduce 10+ HD undead down to 9 HD in order for them to be haunt shifted and then have them manifest, drop the arrows, and gain the abilities appropriate to a 10 HD haunting presence. Even if you can only make them be poltergeists of objects with moving parts, that's still pretty good.

Speaking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195977) of Rebuking (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.70;wap2), you might have some fun with optimizing your effective rebuking level for auto-commanding undead.

Arms and Equipment Guide is your friend here for the Sacred armor property for increasing your effective level for turning/rebuking purposes. Stacks with a shield with the property, so dastana and chahar-aina with the property should work as well. Though it is a significant wealth sink to get 4 +1 Sacred pieces of armor. I believe it's a +2 armor property after all. Also appears in BoED, IIRC, but A&EG version should pass muster. If not, well, that's only a rather spendy +8 to effective turning level anyway. Edit: sorry, forgot that the A&EG is borked and only increases effective level for the turning check, which means you've got a +2 on the roll of whether you'll effect effective level -4, +4, or somewhere in between, rather than actual effective level. :smallsigh: Rod of Authority from Defenders of the Faith might be worth looking at as an alternative +4 to effective level and use of a similar amount of wealth to buff effectivelevel. You'd want to bring in Dungeonscape for the ability to have the holy symbol on one's armor/shield in such a case, so that one's hands could be free to have the rod and scepter.

Lyre of the Restful Soul, Scepter of the Netherworld, and Rod of Defiance(?) from Libris Mortis will apply turning penalties(which are effectively +2 to effective level for each point of penalty) or buff your effective turning level. I believe the Lyre and Rod are both -4 turning penalties which stack for -8 which becomes +16 and the scepter is +3 effective turning levels for an effective +19 all told. Good thing about the Rod and the Lyre are, they can be held by entitites other than the person doing the rebuking and have their effect. The Lyre takes a DC 15 or so check in order to have its effect work, which should be trivial to arrange by the time you can afford one.

Phylactery of Undead turning from the DMG is +4 effective levels for turning, which will apply to rebuking.

The Magic Item Compendium has the Ephod of Authority which is relatively cheap and gives a +1 to turning & I think also applies to rebuking. There should also be a ruby knife or something like that of Wee Jas which gives a similar bonus, I believe Flametouched Iron holy symbols are turning only though, but you can doublecheck the Eberron Campaign Setting if you really want to see if you can get the material in, but that's only another +1.

If you wanna spend feats on it, there's a feat from Ghostwalk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a) called Divine Energy Focus, I believe, which gives a +2 to effective turning level in addition to some other benefits, unlike Improved Turning from the PHB which only gives a +1 to effective level.

So you can see that you can get some fairly hefty bonuses to effective turning level, just what I've listed off here, if all combined would provide about a +30 to effective cleric level. I believe it's a +42 that's needed in order to effectively auto-command all published undead at level 20.

If you want a relatively good source of animal skeletons, there's a feat called Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)which might be of interest. I can't recall if the warbeast template from MM2 would get removed by death and animation as a skeleton offhand.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another thing...

Southern Magician lets your spells count as either arcane or divine.

You have Rebuking as a class ability.

DMM: Persist can be YOURS!

[Greenish]

Hmm...as a new person here. Is it worth deleting this thread because it has no replies in 30 minutes?

and how the hell do I do that?No.

Click the small triangle ("report") on the lower right corner of the post and ask mods to delete the thread (or to move it to the appropriate subforum, or lock, as necessary).


Okay. DM is allowing all 3.5 books except Tome of Battle and Exalted Deeds because he knows what they can do.I know what ToB can do, but what about BoED? Some of the vows, and Exalted Code of Conduct can be really annoying to the party, but well, that can be said of many things.

[Wookie-ranger]

Another thing...

Southern Magician lets your spells count as either arcane or divine.

You have Rebuking as a class ability.

DMM: Persist can be YOURS!


Agreed, the DMM route is always good.
just a question, though. i have often heard that you need to take Southern Magician to make DMM work:
why so?
It does not say anywhere in the feat description that you need to be able to cast divine spells, only that you need to have turn/rebuke undead

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Agreed, the DMM route is always good.
just a question, though. i have often heard that you need to take Southern Magician to make DMM work:
why so?
It does not say anywhere in the feat description that you need to be able to cast divine spells, only that you need to have turn/rebuke undead

The errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) clarifies that it can only be used with divine spells.

[deuxhero]

If you are going Necropolitan, make sure the DM will let you retrain (PHB2) your TTS given it is entirely useless (Even Toughness does more at this point)

[Suddo]

I just can't support 8 Con. I just can't. And don't say I don't need it when I become a lich because I'll tell you when you do need it: EVERY LEVEL BEFORE THAT. Especially considering the fact that it won't be until 20 that you gain it. It's not like your a wizard and are going to gain the template around level 12 or something. (Didn't see you were taking the template I'd still advise against that strategy especially because it prevents your capstone).


Okay. DM is allowing all 3.5 books except Tome of Battle and Exalted Deeds because he knows what they can do. "Just don't go mad" to quote him.?
Sigh... Ask him what "mad" is. Can you chaos shuffle? If so go elf (you insist on having low con might as well have 6).
Without flaws I don't see how you are going to go DMM Persist. That's 4 feats. Also you can only apply DMM persist to divine spells is the problem which I'm not sure if Southern Magician does (am away from my books). I know Alternate Spell Source (its from a dragon magazine) does but I don't know if your DM is going to allow you to use it.
If your DM allows the Versatile Spellcaster Magical Training cheese then do it. Versatile Spellcaster is good regardless.

[deuxhero]

Necropolitan axes the con score at level 3.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can skip both DMM and Southern Magician if you use Illumian with Naenhoon. DMM: Persist is actually pretty worthless for a Dread Necro, unless you use Magical Training tricks to get access to more spells.

I'd actually use Spellscale from Races of the Dragon (Con -2, Cha +2). Their Blood Quickening racial ability can temporarily grant you Heighten Spell, so that's one less feat you have to spend for Versatile Spellcaster early access. It's a dragonblood race, so you'll be able to get Practical Metamagic from that same book. Split Ray with Practical Metamagic is extremely good, considering how many spells you can use it with.

Start out with Versatile Spellcaster, each time you gain a new level of spell slots meditate on Hlal one day to gain knowledge of the next higher level of spells on your spell list. I'd probably use Astilabor's to get Eschew Materials most days, and maybe switch it up to gain a given metamagic feat once you get higher level spells. Skip Tomb-Tainted Soul since it'll be a wasted feat once you get Necropolitan.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can skip both DMM and Southern Magician if you use Illumian with Naenhoon. DMM: Persist is actually pretty worthless for a Dread Necro, unless you use Magical Training tricks to get access to more spells.Aura of Terror so his fear aura is actually useful?

Southern Magician/DMM works more times per day than NaenHoon does, and gives you a freer choice of race, one with actually relevant stat bonuses, for example.

Also, don't forget Metamagic Specialization (Necromancy), and beg/borrow/steal a Slaymate at your earliest opportunity, if you are going the metamagic route.

[Venger]

congrats on rolling dread necro, they're a lot of fun. one of my players is using one in one of my games right now, kicking ass and chewing bubblegum.

have you mapped out what your build is going to be in the long run? if your game's running all the way to epic, then your lich capstone becomes much more than the light (or darkness as the case may be) at the end of the tunnel and something that you might actually be using for several levels once you get it.

with this in mind, are you going to go for DN 20 and then add on other stuff after that? There is no epic progression for DN, as far as I know.

if you're going DN 20, I would, like the others, suggest against going necropolitan right off the bat, since as an undead (and thus not a humanoid) you do not get your lich transformation for free at level 20, which kind of sucks.

also, something that no one's mentioned yet, if you're starting out at level 1, which I believe you are from your initial post, being undead is more of a liability at low levels than it is a boon. You roll d12s, true, but you do so with no con bonus, making your baseline HP/lvl 6. if you're rolling a d6 with a 16 con, your result is the same. if you roll a d6 with a 14 con and improved toughness, your avg hp/lvl is still 6. I know that DNs only have 6s, but my point is that you'll actually have a pretty low hp for your level rather than the other way around, and that can be very dangerous at low levels. also, you do not have the 10 point "cushion" that living characters do for bleeding out. when you fall below 0, you're done. this is why necropolitan is usually seen at mid-levels once the player can put all this behind him

if, on the other hand, you are not going DN 20, feel free to disregard this advice.

however, if you're not going DN20, make sure that you leave before level 8. as tempting as the DN's pimping-as-hell undead mastery ability is, it changes your animate dead pool to be keyed off your DN level instead of your caster level, so if you go into a different class, your pool will be significantly smaller than normal, which is probably not what you want.

I would second not taking tomb-tainted soul if you are going necropolitan, it's a waste of a feat. however, if you can talk your party into taking tomb-tainted soul, you can be the party healer with your bottomless charnel touch. you can also carpet bomb combats with mass inflicts, damaging the enemy while simultaneously healing your friends.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, Lord of the Uttercold can make a Dread Necro a quite effective Blastomancer which simultaneously heals his own troops (since skeletons and many other forms of undead are immune to cold, and are healed by negative energy), which can quickly debuff and destroy opponents (Fell Drain), and when you combine this with spells that don't allow SR, like Kelgore's Grave Mist (available with your 4th level class ability, since it is a Necromancy spell), you have quite a surprisingly nasty combo.