OOTS #835 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[tenavis]

Woo! :smallsmile:

[tenavis]

Woo! :smallsmile:

[Khaethrag]

OK, I'm having trouble even getting my cat to use an actual litterbox, and Belkar can get Mr. Scruffty to use a kobold?

I want a kobold!

[Timberboar]

Ewww...

Poor kobold.

[StreetUrchin]

wooo! um ...eeeeew....

[Squirrel_Token]

Om nom nom ranch :)

[bibliophile20]

It took a moment...

Poor Durkon. Also, it's an interesting bit of character development on V's part--and not in hir favor--that s/he had the same response as Belkar. Getting callous much? Also, not thinking too much: the kobold was useful once. Why discard a useful tool if it's not broken?

[sam79]

Great stuff! The penultimate panel is particularly ace. Love strips with interaction between Belkar and V; when they conflict it's really funny, but it's also cool when they're singing from the same hymn sheet.

[Arrowstorm122]

The heck is with Blackwings face in the first panel?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Though if you find you can't do a comic a day until the end of the drive, I won't think less of you.

[maxon]

Eeeeuuww - I'm with Durkon on this one. uh - this board doesn't have a barf smiley.

Still, they're not far from the others. That's good. Isn't it?

[Psyren]

Oh, yuck! :smalltongue:
So much for what's-his-name joining the Order, that's a done deal now (even though he might not be dead.)

...Wait, is he still alive? He might, er, choke.


Also, not thinking too much: the kobold was useful once. Why discard a useful tool if it's not broken?

Because keeping it useful requires expending tools that are themselves much more useful would be my guess.

[Roland Itiative]

The little exchange about V's adventures were great. I guess this will be a great week, with one comic per day :smalltongue:

[RMS Oceanic]

I like to think Rich got the punchline from the most recent discussion in 834's thread. :smalltongue:

[sam79]

OK, I'm having trouble even getting my cat to use an actual litterbox, and Belkar can get Mr. Scruffty to use a kobold?

I want a kobold!

Our cat's ok with a litter tray; getting him to use the toilet is proving a little more tricky. Looks like putting a kobold head in the bowl is the solution.

[Doug Lampert]

It took a moment...

Poor Durkon. Also, it's an interesting bit of character development on V's part--and not in hir favor--that s/he had the same response as Belkar. Getting callous much? Also, not thinking too much: the kobold was useful once. Why discard a useful tool if it's not broken?

Eh, V has ALWAYS been fairly indiferent to the suffering of others.
And if they assume that the Kobold is only useful while dominated then it is still as useful as ever at this point.

[Squirrel_Token]

It took a moment...

Poor Durkon. Also, it's an interesting bit of character development on V's part--and not in hir favor--that s/he had the same response as Belkar. Getting callous much? Also, not thinking too much: the kobold was useful once. Why discard a useful tool if it's not broken?

Are we really going to get another slew of threads evaluating whether V is "evil" for discarding some low-level mook? :smallsigh:

It's no longer a useful tool now that V has her normal archer (Haley) back. And if the Linear Guild were to break the enchantment during combat, that would be bad.

[Holy_Knight]

It took a moment...

Poor Durkon. Also, it's an interesting bit of character development on V's part--and not in hir favor--that s/he had the same response as Belkar. Getting callous much? Also, not thinking too much: the kobold was useful once. Why discard a useful tool if it's not broken?
Yeah, I have to agree--this is disturbing on a number of levels, but mainly because of V's non-chalance at being so cruel and demeaning.

[Duric]

nasty.

I would have thougth Durkon's high Con-score would help him

[Shale]

A fresh comic, and before noon no less! You rock, Giant.

Gotta admit, I'm kind of confused as to V's sudden callousness toward Y*k-Y*k. If s/he wanted the kobold dead, there were two days in which to cast Disintegrate, nu?

[Sunken Valley]

That was wham!

Although, how did Blackwing and V get back together? Did D & B take him with them?

[Burner28]

Oh Belkar!:smalltongue:


Are we really going to get another slew of threads evaluating whether V is "evil" for discarding some low-level mook? :smallsigh:


Hopefully nobody would do such a thing!

[k_bukie]

Blackwing's beak is a little...off...on the first panel.

[Voshkod]

Sometimes you need a sword, sometimes you need a plowshare, and sometimes you need a litter box. Different tools for different purposes.

[SaintRidley]

A living litterbox for the Scruffinator? Awesome.

[Mastikator]

Looks like V is not doing so well on the whole "become more good" thing. :/

[Conuly]

Are we really going to get another slew of threads evaluating whether V is "evil" for discarding some low-level nameless mook?

It's not evil, exactly. However, V has stated that V is trying to turn over a new leaf - and really, after the whole familicide thing, V should be on Vis best behavior, not Ver worst. (Well, V rhymes with he and she anyway....)

[Slamexo]

Don't get on V's bad side before breakfast. Don't get on his bad side after breakfast either apparently. :smalleek:

[Skeletor]

I think we may of crossed a line that was better not crossed much less known about with this comic. :yuk:

[White Tornado]

I laughed so hard at "One-Who-Tastes-Less-Like-Garlic" ^_^

Great comic.

[Paseo H]

Compounding the issue, were we not led to believe that the kobold had sort of made a heel face turn during the battle with the dark elf, when he surrendered to V's control after said dark elf tried to shoot through him?

[Darkroot]

Blackwing's wingface in the first panel is obviously an effect of his close-range exposure to the Azure City rift, people, not an art error!

I love V's expression in the third panel. "How is this even happening..."

[CoffeeIncluded]

Ugh, that is disgusting. And yeah, I agree that it's a bit callous for V, even if (s)he's currently in a really bad mood.

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

:smallbiggrin: Love V and belkar being of the same mind, it never bodes well for their enemy. The kobold had it coming for hurting Scruffinator.

As for Blackie in the first panel, I believe the drive and 1 comic a day is taking it's toll on Mr. Burlew. Nevermind, he will get to fix it eventually...

Great work, and I LOVE the callousness in this strip.

[Conuly]

I think we may have crossed a line that was better not crossed much less known about with this comic.

Didn't we cross that exact same line with the slave-trading bugs who were going to eat Mr. Scruffy? And in that case there had been an alternative to revenge - Belkar could have asked, as another 'personal favor', that they leave his pet alone.

[Shale]

Compounding the issue, were we not led to believe that the kobold had sort of made a heel face turn during the battle with the dark elf, when he surrendered to V's control after said dark elf tried to shoot through him?

All we can tell from that is that, once Zz'ditri tried to murder him, Yukyuk was on board with killing Zz'ditri back. He may or may not have forgiven V for Dominating him (probably not), especially since his free will was removed for a period of days.

[Manga Shoggoth]

That is ... really ... not a good way to go...

[Arrowstorm122]

Please include V's adventure in a book! :smallbiggrin:

Also, is it crapping down in his mouth or the half of his head?

[ThePhantasm]

Its funny seeing Belkar and evil V up to antics together. After so many years of emnity...

[McStabbington]

*bookmarks page for any future "Is Belkar turning good?" threads, hurriedly exits to visit restroom facilities.*

[B. Dandelion]

Well, people wanted something horrible to happen to the guy...

That... was certainly horrible. Yeeech!! ::shudders::

[Eerie]

That is ... really ... not a good way to go...

Why do you think the kobold is dead? He is just forced to eat ****...

[maximus25]

That was so gross. I can't even believe what I have read today.


I almost puked.

[ThePhantasm]

Its funny seeing Belkar and evil V up to antics together. After so many years of emnity...

[Shhalahr Windrider]

All I can say is: Ew.

Especially when combined with the title.

[factotum]

Also, is it crapping down in his mouth or the half of his head?

Given the dialogue in the strip, unless Belkar somehow managed to remove the top half of the kobold's head without killing him, I'm going for the former...

[leakingpen]

Blackwings beak isn't weird, he's looking down, so its overlaying his wing. its kinda blurring it out, but thats an artifact of the background.

Yeah... watching as a sentient creature is tortured, and getting enjoyment from it? I'm pretty sure that is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as an evil thing... as dm, i'd be forcing an alignment shift any time now.

[Goosefeather]

OotS - quality storytelling AND dietary advice for cat-owners!

[Kurald Galain]

Hmm...

Qarr and the Triad were planning something. They intentionally had V sent to the Ranch Dressing plane, and then Qarr 'ported out to report something. So it stands to reason that something happened on that plane. Is V lying about that?

[Killer Munchkin]

If V is called One-Who-Tastes-Less-Like-Garlic, does that mean s/he has been tasted?

Lolled at V & Belkar's synchronous response!

[factotum]

Qarr and the Triad were planning something. They intentionally had V sent to the Ranch Dressing plane, and then Qarr 'ported out to report something.

They sent him there because there wasn't really anything dangerous there--left to his own devices, Zz'dtri would have sent him somewhere really nasty and he might have died, which would not suit the IFCC at all. Qarr was presumably reporting V was safe and sound.

[EmperorSarda]

Also, either Rich is ignoring the rules again, or V has a variant of Overland Flight that allows it to be cast on other people apart from himself.

[pjackson]

Yeah... watching as a sentient creature is tortured, and getting enjoyment from it? I'm pretty sure that is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as an evil thing... as dm, i'd be forcing an alignment shift any time now.

It is also specifically mentioned that a single act is not usually sufficient reason to force an alignment shift.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

lol, now guys read the title of the strip again... :smalltongue:

[kierthos]

Also, either Rich is ignoring the rules again, or V has a variant of Overland Flight that allows it to be cast on other people apart from himself.I believe the answer would be "Yes".

[Joxer t' Mighty]

Wait, so forcing a guy who tried to kill you and your pet to eat **** is now an 'evil' act?

Folks, there is something called 'neutrality'. For a comic devoted to showing the falacy of thinking in terms of black and white, posters here sure seem to cling to it... much like the ranch de bowels do to the kobold's fangs.

[Michaeler]

We do appear to have an answer to concerns that Mr Scruffy shouldn't be eating the ranch sauce after all.

[sparkyinbozo]

I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Not a style I'd like to see as standard for the comic, but loved it nonetheless.

[JonathanC]

Yeah, I have to agree--this is disturbing on a number of levels, but mainly because of V's non-chalance at being so cruel and demeaning.

This isn't really that out of character for Vaarsuvius. At best, he/she has always been a neutral alignment. Remember Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)?

[EpsilonShawn]

Shouldn't have had lunch while checking for updates. And sure, I wasn't eating any solids, but liquid veggie mush isn't much better.

I guess a dampened appetite is good for the post holiday season diet.


That is ... really ... not a good way to go...
Ha, good one!

[The Succubus]

Don't get on V's bad side before breakfast. Don't get on his bad side after breakfast either apparently. :smalleek:

If I was going to gross people out, I would say this is occuring during breakfast. >:)

[Myrdhale]

Nice to see V and Belkar bond over something.

[hamishspence]

Wait, so forcing a guy who tried to kill you and your pet to eat **** is now an 'evil' act?

Folks, there is something called 'neutrality'. For a comic devoted to showing the falacy of thinking in terms of black and white, posters here sure seem to cling to it... much like the ranch de bowels do to the kobold's fangs.

The existance of neutrality does not preclude this being an evil act- though it's usually possible for a neutral character to commit a few and not fall.

It comes across to me as "torture for fun" though.

[Fish]

This from the same elf who went on rescue adventures for salad-dressing people. Sounds like neutrality to me.

[SpaceBadger]

Ugh, I was all excited about another update so soon after the one yesterday, but after reading the punchline - I'm just a bit queasy. Least favorite OotS ever.

[Joxer t' Mighty]

Of course neutality doesn't meant there isn't evil. The point of my post is that whenever something 'gross' happens, the common consensus is it's evil.

Everything seems to be registered on the either black or white scale... though this is likely more of a light brown, with runny bits of yellow perhaps.

This seems neutral, or at least far more neutral than killing him.

[EmperorSarda]

Belkar's wish finally came true, he has a sentient being (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html) that he can crap in now. Or have his cat crap in...

[Orzel]

+25 points of evil for V and Belkar.

[Saph]

Ewww. :smallyuk:

Most revolting OotS yet. Though I can't really say it's out of character.

[Mr Jones]

You know, I gotta admit I'm more squicked out by Mr. Scruffy's revenge dump than I am by the idea of just killing the kobold while he's helpless. Not sure what that says about me.

It's a bit of a longshot, but I think they might just leave the kobold. He's in the middle of nowhere in the desert with no way of contacting the Linear Guild or following Durkon, V, and Belkar. Would he even remember how he got there?

I guess that's a rules question -- would the kobold remember anything that happened to him while he was dominated? Or would he just wake up in the desert with a great need for listerine, wondering what happened to the palace and the big pile of treasure?

[FatJose]

His silent screams....So. V can hear his mental screams? And refers to them as a symphony?

Dude....

Someone should get to making a V is Chaotic Neutral thread. Pronto.

[The Shadow]

"His screams are a silent symphony I cannot share."

Sorry, folks, but enjoying the screams of a helpless prisoner is not neutral. It is evil.

That said, I do hope we can avoid another 'morally justified' thread.

[TheSummoner]

All things considered, the kobold got off easy.

[Crisis21]

Thank you very much, Rich, for not showing that on-panel.

I honestly think that my reaction would have been very much like Durkon's.

That said, it was classic Belkar.

[raistlinsama]

My reaction was a mix of :smallyuk: and LOL. the LOL won in the end.

Yes, this is an evil-ish act but I don't think it qualifies for an alignment shift for V. As it has already been mentioned V is not new to this kind of stuff (the Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion!! :smallbiggrin:).

It seems to me that some people is expecting a neutral leaning on good behaviour from V, while it seems to me that (s)he has been consistently neutral (besides the soul-splice event: familicide was EVIL).

[luc258]

That was a clear act of hilariously evil.

[SaintRidley]

I hope one of our $1250 backers decides they like V's adventure helping Prince Oozalot and rescuing Gootrude enough to request it as a story.

[AbuSpud]

I'm with Durkon on this one. :smallyuk:

Clever, [and funny!] but...ewwww...

[ThePhantasm]

I hope one of our $1250 backers decides they like V's adventure helping Prince Oozalot and rescuing Gootrude enough to request it as a story.

Why, if it might be bonus material?!

[Smolder]

At least the debate about the effect of sour cream and chives on a cat has been resolved. We now know the consequences...

[SaintRidley]

Why, if it might be bonus material?!

As pointed out by Belkar and V, unlikely. Pretty sure Rich is poking fun at us.

[Lord Bingo]

I am laughing so hard it hurts! Dairy really is not good for felines...

Thx Giant

[hamishspence]

Sorry, folks, but enjoying the screams of a helpless prisoner is not neutral. It is evil.

That said, I do hope we can avoid another 'morally justified' thread.

A good rule of thumb when assessing the morality of any act is:

"Does it involve somebody being hurt, oppressed, debased, or killed, deliberately or negligently?"

"Are the justifications given for the act unsatisfactory?"

If both of these are the case, then one should not be afraid to label that particular act evil.

[Porthos]

And once again, V reminds us that True Neutral doesn't necessarily mean Do Good Most of the Time While Occasionally Looking the Other Way When It Is Time To Be Heroic.

I eagerly await the comparisons between V's act here and the Elven Commander's treatment of his prisoner.

(For the record, V's treatment of his prisoner is worse IMO. :smallwink:)

[Emulgator]

Yuk...


Yuk.

[Pip]

Is anyone else noticing that most of V's word ballons seem to be coming from Blackwing?

[Joxer t' Mighty]

Yuk...


Yuk.
*rimshots in appreciation*

[MaximKat]

Are we really going to get another slew of threads evaluating whether V is "evil" for discarding some low-level mook? :smallsigh:

It's no longer a useful tool now that V has her normal archer (Haley) back. And if the Linear Guild were to break the enchantment during combat, that would be bad.

This does count as cruel and unusual punishment, though.

[t209]

Go get your multipurpose mind controlled Kobolds?
- Use as a gun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html)
- Use as a personal litter box.
Since this arc have once a day update week, I hope the new book will have little bonus scene.
P.S- Yeah to Poop lubricated Kobold gun.

[Pory]

The first time Belkar doesn't try to kill a kobold at sight and it turns out that the kobold did something bad to him beforehand.

[tirsales]

Yeah... watching as a sentient creature is tortured, and getting enjoyment from it? I'm pretty sure that is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as an evil thing... as dm, i'd be forcing an alignment shift any time now.V is not getting any enjoyment, s/he is merely not interested (see hir expression in the two last panels).
This is quite different (maybe not less evil, depends on the moral compass, but different).

[Spacewolf]

wonder what the stats for a sauce dragon are and what its breath weapon would be

[Juhn]

I can genuinely say that I never expected coprophagia to show up in OotS.

Gross.

[Bulldog Psion]

No offense, but I'm personally pretty disgusted by this strip. :smallannoyed: Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm just some kind of weak, puny wimp that can't take it, or something. But I still dislike it, because it's gross, and unnecessarily so. Ugh. :smallmad:

[t209]

Did you guys notice Belkar's fourth wall breaking about bonus adventures in book?

[Cheiromancer]

That's disgusting.

Rich should be ashamed of himself.

[AutomatedTeller]

That was just wrong.

btw - Durkon is lawful good, right? How is killing the kobold more good than not killing him? Unless scruffy's actions are going to result in the kobold's death, not killing him is definitely less evil.

[The Pilgrim]

Vaarsuvius, as true neutral as always. Looks that her attemp at turning towards Good has it's limits.

[Cynric]

Sure, he's allowing his cat to use Yukyuk as a human litter box. Sure, he will undoubtedly choke to death on the ensuing cat waste. Sure, no sentient being has ever deserved such a heinous fate. But considering he shot the only thing Belkar Bitterleaf cares about with a crossbow bolt, I kinda think Yukyuk is getting off pretty lightly.

[Willis888]

wonder what the stats for a sauce dragon are and what its breath weapon would be

Curried habanero horseradish.

[Porthos]

Are we really going to get another slew of threads evaluating whether V is "evil" for discarding some low-level mook? :smallsigh:

It's no longer a useful tool now that V has her normal archer (Haley) back. And if the Linear Guild were to break the enchantment during combat, that would be bad.

Torturing a prisoner and enjoying the suffering before executing them?

I dunno. Seems kinda on the evil side of the street to me. :smallwink:

But, hey, True Neutral. To be expected from time to time.

[thepsyker]

I have to say I think V's actions seem a little off. I mean I could see V agree that Belkar deserves the opportunity to have vengeance for the kobold's harming Mr Scruffy, but it seems to me that would be more a matter of standing back and letting Belkar do his thing. Instead V seems to not only be actively involved, maybe I'm reading to much into it, but I got the impression that in panel 10 V is using dominate to make him lay down. V's "no" also seems oddly enthusiastic about letting Mr Scruffy do his business while Yukyuk was still alive. I mean, yes, Yukyuk did shoot V in 790 and V is perfectly capable of taking severe revenge for far pettier slights and indeed has. I don't know it just feels off unless Yukyuk did something we haven't seen yet to V to further earn V's ire.

[Anarion]

I imagine V didn't much appreciate getting sneak attacked with YukYuk's crossbow bolts either, and he probably knows that when the mind control did wear off, YukYuk would leave and probably attack the again in the future. Still though, :vaarsuvius: "His silent screams are a symphony I cannot share." That's really creepy.

[Catbeller Mouse]

Yeah, I have to agree--this is disturbing on a number of levels, but mainly because of V's non-chalance at being so cruel and demeaning.

Cruel, demeaning, yes, but I don't think the kobold is dead. So some evil does not attach. The kobold could be merely recycling waste into more refined waste. One could say a just punishment for shooting a helpless cat.

To keep the kobold alive, Varsuvius only has to make him... swallow. :smallamused:

[AutomatedTeller]

well, V's No could be "no! there is no reason to kill him" while Belkar's is "No! I wanna torture THEN kill him"

[Michaeler]

By my reckoning V's action is less evil than Belkar's action, though still south of Neutral as Haley puts it.

Belkar, well, he's committed some quasi-lawful and some good acts not that far back. Got to keep that alignment well into Chaotic Evil.

[hamishspence]

That was just wrong.

btw - Durkon is lawful good, right? How is killing the kobold more good than not killing him? Unless scruffy's actions are going to result in the kobold's death, not killing him is definitely less evil.

There are times when killing someone (but not torturing them) is justified- and choosing to torture them instead of kill them qualifies as evil.

[Porthos]

V is not getting any enjoyment, s/he is merely not interested (see hir expression in the two last panels).
This is quite different (maybe not less evil, depends on the moral compass, but different).

I suppose if I squint the phrase "His silent screams are a symphony I cannot share" could be taken either way (V just being verbose and melodramatic).

But, I dunno, are you gonna give V the benefit of the doubt on that one? :smallwink:

Either way, the agreeing to let Mr. Scruffy do this in the first place is more to the point than anything else, don'tcha think?

[Catbeller Mouse]

Two skulls, one cat.

[the_tick_rules]

oh this is the OOTS I like.

[Dr._Demento]

For me, the worst part is the title... A *fresh* recall every time you see it.

Also, to chime in on what I assume is already a raging discussion of V's morality: Durken doesn't seem to object to executing the kobold, so the only question I see is if alive v dead is just squick or actually a moral point.

[Aotrs Commander]

After I stopped laughing, I realised that is EXACTLY the sort of thing players - and thus PCs - have an occasional tendancy to do, when exacting revenge on NPCs that have tweaked them (when the good characters aren't looking)... It could totally have happened in my group! Adventurers can be really petty some days...

Though the closest I think I ever personally came (that I can bring to mind) was playing that CE character (who was a bit mad), forced to go along with the big bad accompanying the party, who he couldn't have defeated any other way, taking revenge by [relieving himself] in his boots...

[Idhan]

I'll just say that if Belkar's personal journey over the past 230 strips has been to learn to conceal his sociopathic nature behind a façade of normality, that personal journey isn't going too well.

And if Vaarsuvius's personal journey over the past 169 strips has been to learn to wield his arcane power with discretion and humility, that personal journey isn't going too well either.

[Joxer t' Mighty]

Is there a particular reason everyone thinks that the kobold is going to die? There is such a thing as, wait for it, swallowing.

[silvadel]

Actually I would say that this is more evil for V than for Belkar. Revenge upon one who tried to kill and did maim the only thing that Belkar really cares about shouldnt move the evil bar up any more than a blip at most.

Now V "His silent screams are a symphony" comment while keeping a dominated victim down for scruffy to do his business... Well that kind of stylized evil does move the bar.

[DreadArchon]

That is funny. I guess.

Mostly horrifying.

But still also funny, somehow.

:eek:

[Burner28]

I suppose if I squint the phrase "His silent screams are a symphony I cannot share" could be taken either way (V just being verbose and melodramatic).

But, I dunno, are you gonna give V the benefit of the doubt on that one? :smallwink:


Maybe it reallly means "Fluffy Superman wants ice cream!:smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Is there a particular reason everyone thinks that the kobold is going to die? There is such a thing as, wait for it, swallowing.

I can think of only two people who raised the possibility that it would kill him:


That is ... really ... not a good way to go...


Oh, yuck! :smalltongue:
So much for what's-his-name joining the Order, that's a done deal now (even though he might not be dead.)

...Wait, is he still alive? He might, er, choke.

[Kaulguard]

This whole strip is almost a troll to these threads.

[Joxer t' Mighty]

I can think of only two people who raised the possibility that it would kill him:
Look some more, there's at least one a few posts above yours.

[Mr Jones]

The more I think about it, the more it depends on whether they kill the kobold. If they do that as their token revenge instead of killing him, it'll have a very different feel to it then if they do this, then go on to kill him once it's no longer funny.

Not that I'd be shocked. I mean, this is Belkar "hang on a sec while I go harvest his kidneys" Bitterleaf, after all.

I'd be kinda disappointed in V though.

Still, they may just leave him. It sounds like he's far enough out with no means of transportation or getting in touch with Nale & Co., so it's not as though there's a tactical reason to off him.

(Another rules question, aside from the do-dominated-creatures-remember-anything one -- how far off are Roy and the others if it'll take V about a day to reach them with Overland flight on?)

[hamishspence]

Look some more, there's at least one a few posts above yours.

You mean these two?


For me, the worst part is the title... A *fresh* recall every time you see it.

Also, to chime in on what I assume is already a raging discussion of V's morality: Durken doesn't seem to object to executing the kobold, so the only question I see is if alive v dead is just squick or actually a moral point.


Torturing a prisoner and enjoying the suffering before executing them?

I dunno. Seems kinda on the evil side of the street to me. :smallwink:

But, hey, True Neutral. To be expected from time to time.

they don't say anything about the process killing him- but seem to presume that he'll be executed afterward.

[leakingpen]

Yuk...


Yuk.

Win sir. Win. and now... I wonder how long this has been plotted....

Did the first kobold get his name JUST to have an eventual brother named yuk yuk have something disgusting happen to him?

[Mixt]

See? More evidence that V is evil incarnate!

Tricksy bastard, hiding right beneath everybody's noses.

Hey! You fools! Screw Xykon and all the other villains, the most evil creature in the multiverse is hiding right under your noses pretending to be one of you!

LYNCH THE ELF!
LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH!!!

[Joxer t' Mighty]

You mean these two?
No...


Sure, he's allowing his cat to use Yukyuk as a human litter box. Sure, he will undoubtedly choke to death on the ensuing cat waste.

Btw, I have Resistance to Nitpickers 20 {{scrubbed}}

[Dr._Demento]

You mean these two?





they don't say anything about the process killing him- but seem to presume that he'll be executed afterward.

I'm an example!

and no, I don't assume the process kills him, I'm just saying that killing him probably isn't an evil act.

[blazingshadow]

Durkon is not going to object to whatever treatment V and Belkar do to YukYuk despite how he feels about it. he is lawful good but he didn't mind seeing how V and Belkar did their pranks on each other and he even laughed at some of them. V doing some evil acts to his enemies is not a big deal either especially as this is as evil as a really bad (and distasteful) prank.

i do wonder why is V's dominate different from Yukiko's in that he doesn't need to speak to command the subject to do something. maybe he used telepathic bond?

[hamishspence]

No...

Missed that one.

Still seems to me that the question "why does everyone think the process will kill him" is a bit of an exaggeration.

[Mr Jones]

Hey now, explosive rune pranks are okay, but poop is GROSS.

[Porthos]

they don't say anything about the process killing him- but seem to presume that he'll be executed afterward.

Yes that's my presumption. Or rather I presume that Belkar intends on killing him afterwards. V? Well he might leave him in the wilds to fend for himself. But even though his brush with being Darth V has probably changed his outlook to some things, I don't know if he's gonna be the type who will want to leave enemies behind that will be coming after him.

The wild card here will probably be Durkon. Once he gets over being squiked, it will be interesting to see what he wants to do with said prisoner.

[Gift Jeraff]

Aw, I miss when Blackwing was a weird horror in the first panel. But I love how everything added up perfectly--Belkar's culinary skills, Belkar wanting to turn the last kobold he killed into a litter box, the name "Yukyuk," V getting sent to a seemingly random food plane, feline digestion... Brilliant.



Yes, toilet humour is brilliant. Also, Mr. S.! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVIdy9_wqQw)

[Catbeller Mouse]

What's amusing Rich, I'd guess, is that he didn't show what was happening off-camera. Varsuvius could have helpfully put the other kobold's skull on Yuk Yuk's chest, for example. Your own imaginations are making you all turn green. Shame on you! Jumping to conclusions. :smallsmile:

[Zevox]

Well, this was nice and amusing. Still, as others have covered already, definitely not a good sign for V that she had the same idea as Belkar here.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

The wild card here will probably be Durkon. Once he gets over being squiked, it will be interesting to see what he wants to do with said prisoner.

The only time I recall Durkon directly contributing a comment on the subject of prisoners:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html

it was to voice the opinion that the Order probably couldn't hold them themselves- they'd mess it up sooner or later.

I doubt his view has changed.

[Smolder]

No offense, but I'm personally pretty disgusted by this strip. :smallannoyed: Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm just some kind of weak, puny wimp that can't take it, or something. But I still dislike it, because it's gross, and unnecessarily so. Ugh. :smallmad:


That's disgusting. Rich should be ashamed of himself.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that if you think being used as a litter box is worse than being turned into a hat, you've missed the point. Go back and read the comics. That was classic Belkar. The kobold deserved it and probably got off easy.

[Anarion]

The more I think about it, the more it depends on whether they kill the kobold. If they do that as their token revenge instead of killing him, it'll have a very different feel to it then if they do this, then go on to kill him once it's no longer funny.

Not that I'd be shocked. I mean, this is Belkar "hang on a sec while I go harvest his kidneys" Bitterleaf, after all.

I'd be kinda disappointed in V though.

Still, they may just leave him. It sounds like he's far enough out with no means of transportation or getting in touch with Nale & Co., so it's not as though there's a tactical reason to off him.

(Another rules question, aside from the do-dominated-creatures-remember-anything one -- how far off are Roy and the others if it'll take V about a day to reach them with Overland flight on?)

He's a ranger though. Quite likely to have a competent survival modifier at that and therefore capable of making it out of the desert. Plus, if there's anything Greek myths have taught me, it's that trying to kill someone by leaving them to the elements is bad for your own long-term health.

After doing this whole litterbox thing to YukYuk, not to mention V mind controlling him for days, they almost have to kill him at this point. The alternative is that he eventually gets free and makes it his personal life goal to hunt them down.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that if you think being used as a litter box is worse than being turned into a hat, you've missed the point. Go back and read the comics. That was classic Belkar. The kobold deserved it and probably got off easy.

Deserved is a loaded phrase. If you're more on the good side of the spectrum, you could argue that nobody deserves torture or death and that any killing required for the greater good is a deep and saddening sacrifice.

On the other hand, in terms of storytelling, YukYuk shot V in the back a couple times with crossbows and shot Belkar's cat, so of all the people in the OoTS world, those two have a right to be pretty mad.

[Enero Irontoad]

Yeah, they'll probably have to kill him after anyway, which makes this unnecessary torture. Otherwise, it would be a nasty - but still deserved - punishment, for Yukyuk's evil deed. If they do plan to let him go, he needs to learn his lesson first. I know if someone injured my cat I wouldn't let them go with merely a lecture or complaint. I wouldn't do anything as drastic as this, however.

But since this is about Belkar, it's not really about righteous punishment for animal cruelty, it's gruesome revenge. Remember, Belkar flossed a man's guts with another man's guts for just making fun of him and his cat.

[Bulldog Psion]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that if you think being used as a litter box is worse than being turned into a hat, you've missed the point. Go back and read the comics. That was classic Belkar. The kobold deserved it and probably got off easy.

Well, speaking for myself, I never said that the kobold being used as a litter box was worse than being killed from his point of view, although I think that choking to death on feces is his likely fate, and therefore counts as being tortured AND killed at the same time.

My assertion is that the scene is revolting -- a contention which I still maintain.

[Meta]

I'd imagine V was thinking something along the lines of, "the kobold was unnecessarily cruel to the cat, so let the cat be unnecessarily cruel to the kobold."

It's certainly not a nice thing to do, but imagine if V tried to fight Belkar on punishing the kobold. It could cause infighting or bad-blood that could literally endanger the fate of the cosmos, and the Kobold would probably end up murdered at Belkar's hands anyways. As pragmatic as V is and as team-friendly as he/she is trying to be; Seems pretty in character to me. V may have even saved the kobold's life by letting Belkar vent in this manner rather than his regular MO

EDIT: Still gross, and I'm a bit surprised it was in OotS, but probably shouldn't be looking at past strips, it's just been a while maybe?

[KoboldRevenge]

Looks like Yuk Yuk was...
(Sunglasses)
Full of crap.

YEEEEEAH!:smallbiggrin:

[derfenrirwolv]

That has GOT to allow a new save...

With bonuses.

[PhantomFox]

I admit this is amusing, but do we have a reason why we're doing this scene? What was the reason that we had this whole V-banished thread? There must be a reason, or else it wouldn't be included...

[eusticepious]

So what happened to Qarr and the IFCC plans with V on the Ranch Dressing plane? Guess we will have to wait longer to find out what happened, but there are a few hints that something did, namely (1) V exposing the Kobold to Belkar (with the predictable response that hushes the Kobold from saying anything), (2) Blackwing's Art has been commented on (can't see much from it myself), but a different depiction of blackwing, (3) the narrative set up that Qarr planned to send V to the Ranch Dressing plane, but we have not seen that play out.

On a most-likely unrelated note V defeated the "evil sauce dragon". Fun detail given V's history with dragons.

[Zombieboots]

Nooooo!

I was hoping to keep a extra member of the team for a story arch! How is that not a tactical advantage? Both V and Roy should see the value in that.

Extra fighter, mark of Justice incase of dispel magic or betrayal. Possibly some Belkar character growth as he "competes" with his silent rival. Followed up with a awesome Koboldassacre at the end.

[Rotipher]

While I do agree that Belkar is being fairly cruel here, and V somewhat (it's not vir idea, but ve's not objecting), I don't think either one is acting outside the range for a morally-Neutral character. Mr. Scruffy is, after all, the one who's actually committing the offense, and he's as Neutral as any other non-sentient animal.

[Fitzclowningham]

The guy shot a cat for fun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html). He didn't even make it sporting; he used his ranger-fu to calm and pacify Mr. Scruffy, then cold shot him. Go back and read #792 again and see if this 'torture' is unacceptably cruel.

[Unisus]

I'd really like the not-so-exciting adventures of Varsuvius on the other plane as a bonus story in the next book it would fit in *smile*

[ManuelSacha]

It serves him right.
And good riddance.

LOL @ the deadpan duo. When they agree on something and actually cooperate, people better be scared.

[Geno9999]

I feel somewhat bad for laughing the last part. I guess you can now file this moment as a point where V and Belkar aren't so different. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoDifferent)

[hamishspence]

Go back and read #792 again and see if this 'torture' is unacceptably cruel.

A big part of D&D books that mention specific evil acts (Fiendish Codex 2, Book of Exalted Deeds) is that all torture (whether for information, or imposed as punishment) is unacceptably cruel, for the purposes of defining whether an act counts as Evil or not.

[teratorn]

And then they learn coprophagy is part of a balanced kobold diet. Yuk yuk decides to side with the team just so he can get daily treats like these.

[ThePhantasm]

Quite a few people are disgusted at the final panel. And yet I recall that, when the strip came out in which Scruffy was shot by the kobold, the multitudes were demanding the kobold's horrible death.

[LordRahl6]

Poop aside, the reaction by Belkar about V's semi-elemental Ranch plane adventures are GREAT! :smallcool: Its just a shame that the KS drives $1250 donations are taken as that would have been something to remember.:smallfrown:

[eulmanis12]

A good rule of thumb when assessing the morality of any act is:

"Does it involve somebody being hurt, oppressed, debased, or killed, deliberately or negligently?"

"Are the justifications given for the act unsatisfactory?"

If both of these are the case, then one should not be afraid to label that particular act evil.

Yes to the first

:belkar: "He tried to kill my best friend"
to the second

Neutral not evil

also technicaly belkar and V aren't doing anything, wrong or otherwise
Mr, Scruffy is the one dealing the pain and I can't find anything wrong with the cat's reason for seeking revenge

[Particle_Man]

Gotta admit, I'm kind of confused as to V's sudden callousness toward Y*k-Y*k. If s/he wanted the kobold dead, there were two days in which to cast Disintegrate, nu?

V likely would not go out of V's way to either help or harm the kobold, is my guess.

[Idhan]

Most likely Rich is ignoring the rules, but Overland Flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm) can only be cast on the caster. Which barring rule ignoring means that V has a variant of Overland Flight that can be cast on others as well.

Also, with Durkon hustling in heavy armor, they'll go 1/10th the speed they would if Durkon had just cast Wind Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) on the whole party. I'm thinking that there are some homebrew restrictions on Wind Walk. In Stopping for Direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), Durkon says "Once we leave tha desert, we can use me wind walk spell to move us from one ta tha next quickly." This suggests that while in the desert, wind walk doesn't work. Interesting.

UPDATE: As Dr. Demento said, it's because of tha desert winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html).

[hamishspence]

also technicaly belkar and V aren't doing anything, wrong or otherwise
Mr, Scruffy is the one dealing the pain and I can't find anything wrong with the cat's reason for seeking revenge

If a wizard casts Hold Person on a guy who is near a hungry lion, knowing the lion will go for him, and knowing he's capable of getting away otherwise- the wizard is still guilty of murder, even if he's not getting his own hands dirty.

Same applies to pushing someone in a snake pit and saying "it's the snakes that'll choose to kill him, not me."

"Revenge" is not considered a valid reason for violence in BoED (and BoVD regards it with considerable suspicion).

[MelTorefas]

I don't know why I found the living kobold litter box more offensive compared to a lot of the much more legitimate awfulness that has happened in this comic, but I did. Apparently this is where I draw the line. In the kitty litter.

(On the other hand, two updates so soon? So awesome!)

[One Skunk Todd]

Is there a particular reason everyone thinks that the kobold is going to die? There is such a thing as, wait for it, swallowing.

Toxoplasmosis.

[Omergideon]

Now this is what one assumes would be an almost pure comedy strip. Sure it advances the story but as a joke strip (and something lighthearted after the serious Redcloak stuff is welcome) it a very well constructed piece. On a mechanical level it is indeed very well constructed and well designed.

On the other hand, I can truly see why someone would not like it. I myself do not find toilet humour, or humour based on pain, to be funny except in very rare cases. This is a very difficult strip for me to grade. And I will explain why now.

The Good:
1) I think the art in this strip is fabulous, and very understated. I often and usually praise it, but it is often and usually good. In particular it feels far less static than the last strip, due to the large amount of small movement with the characters. The are never in the exact same position, making them feel like they are moving about. But they are also not cluttering up the strip like Roy's sword did last time. Excellent construction.
2) Unlike in the last strip there is no dead space or wasted time. Everything is either a joke, fast paced action that moves the story on in a good way, or a character moment and reaction. And all in all they work out very well. This leads to good pacing, and a very smooth strip. Definately a good thing.
3) Many of the jokes work. Not all of them. I admit this. But many do. V's response to his adventures is the humour high point. In addition there are a good number of jokes that do build logically to the climax in a sensible fashion. But in the end it is a well constructed joke strip. Something I admit I did not find funny, but that I can see how it is supposed to work.
4) Finally, there is a good amount of sensible internal continuity in this comic. The references and details all make sense. And they reference real stuff. Well done.

The Bad:
1) This is how it becomes hard to judge. The next is more of a personal comment, but this one is more objective. V seems out of character in his final moments. I mean V has never been the sort to truly enjoy the pain of others, or to be so indifferent to it. When he was in DStP it was a sign of his growing instability and issues. This ending seems to come out of nowhere and be less in character. And considering the Giants normally sterling work in this regard I find this especially jarring.
2) And then we get to the jokes themselves. Now I admit this is very subjective, but I did not find the jokes about YukYuk to be funny. I just don't. They are joking about killing, and essentially tormenting a sentient being. One who V can hear the screams of in his mind. Again I would expect V to show more emotions about this than he does (see point 1 for OOC), and it just is not funny to me. Sorry giant.

So yeah. The positives are all very real, and based on those this is a very good strip. But the negatives are very big ones to me, even if they are subjective. So, as any review is largely opinion, I must rate this as ** again. It is well paced and excellently constructed. But it lacks the charm and humour I would need to enjoy the strip. I think I should add that if you find the jokes funny then we get *** easily. I just cannot recommend the strip.



And to finish, I need to express just how uncomfortable I find the final panels. Not that I doubt belkar would act this way. He would without question. But V..........and Durkon as well. I expected more from them. I personally would disapprove of killing such a fundamentally harmless opponent. Surely the enchantment can be removed as the party leave, giving Yukyuk a chance. This is all I can be bothered to say about the issue.

[Dr._Demento]

Also, with Durkon hustling in heavy armor, they'll go 1/10th the speed they would if Durkon had just cast Wind Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) on the whole party. I'm thinking that there are some homebrew restrictions on Wind Walk. In Stopping for Direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), Durkon says "Once we leave tha desert, we can use me wind walk spell to move us from one ta tha next quickly." This suggests that while in the desert, wind walk doesn't work. Interesting.

He mentioned that the desert winds were too great to be able to move effectively. (and you are affected by the wind when wind walking).

[One Skunk Todd]

Is there a particular reason everyone thinks that the kobold is going to die? There is such a thing as, wait for it, swallowing.

Toxoplasmosis.

[TheGuitar]

Love everything about this comic.

[Themrys]

Okay...now I'm convinced V has become evil. That dragon had threatened to kill and soulbind V's family, but in this case, V tortures a normal enemy. On Belkar's request. :smalleek:

[Beowulf DW]

Wait, so forcing a guy who tried to kill you and your pet to eat **** is now an 'evil' act?

Folks, there is something called 'neutrality'. For a comic devoted to showing the falacy of thinking in terms of black and white, posters here sure seem to cling to it... much like the ranch de bowels do to the kobold's fangs.

Well said, sir. Or ma'am. Whichever.

There is definitely a difference between an evil act and a gross prank on someone who deserved it.

[hamishspence]

I see being magically compelled to do something horrible to yourself to be pretty torturous.

Try and imagine yourself in Yuk-yuk's position. You can hear what's coming. You're struggling with your own body- but it won't obey you.

A bit more than a "gross prank" here- seems to me only a small step down from Village of the Damned territory- remember the terror in the eyes of the various people in the movie as the Children compel them to injure themselves in various ways?

[Incom]

So is V moving back into Belkar's "lust" column? ;)

[Voshkod]

I'm kind of hoping the next strip opens with Durkon just killing the kobold outright with a comment about "we can't waste time with this sort of stupidity . . . ." I see V and Belkar as both in character, it's Durkon that should be doing more (in my ever humble opinion).

[Kaveman26]

I will say this with full understanding that Hazing, Bullying etc are big topics on most news broadcasts these days. But bluntly speaking with the debates over evil-ness and alignment shifts and the like, this is really just frat boy type hijinks.

They are adversarys and taunting an enemy is part of the system. heck there are rules for it in game. Sure its a borderline "evil" act cause its a form of torture. But cutting his throat in cold blood...is just as cold blooded.

[Hallavast]

Looks like the comic has sidestepped the "live prisoner" moral quandary all together. Even from the "lawful good" priest. Getting some character development for Durkon out of it would have been welcome, but who am I kidding? Durkon was never supposed to be a real person, anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if this subject was discussed at length somewhere in this 6 page thread already.

[Tulio d Bard]

A big part of D&D books that mention specific evil acts (Fiendish Codex 2, Book of Exalted Deeds) is that all torture (whether for information, or imposed as punishment) is unacceptably cruel, for the purposes of defining whether an act counts as Evil or not.

But how many Evil acts are necessary to make an individual Evil? And what Evil frequency? Do Evil acts outweigh Good acts?
Depending on how far back in time you go to measure someone's alignment, I'd say V's currently Evil (if you only consider the last action), or Neutral (if you go back any further), possibly leaning towards Good if you believe before the OotS arrival at the Western Continent shouldn't be accounted for.
But, saying someone is Evil based purely on a single act is not what I'd do, so I go with Neutral.


If a wizard casts Hold Person on a guy who is near a hungry lion, knowing the lion will go for him, and knowing he's capable of getting away otherwise- the wizard is still guilty of murder, even if he's not getting his own hands dirty.

Same applies to pushing someone in a snake pit and saying "it's the snakes that'll choose to kill him, not me."

"Revenge" is not considered a valid reason for violence in BoED (and BoVD regards it with considerable suspicion).

V had already cast his spell, and dispelling it would be Good (you're actually acting to save/prevent harm to be done to someone other than you), considering that YukYuk is an enemy and would likely try to kill him if released. A Neutral character, as I see it, wouldn't care that much if an ally of yours wants to have revenge on someone. Letting your enemies live unharmed is usually GOOD (yes, all caps) stuff, and not even all Paladins do that.

[MrShadetree]

This is hilariously gross but come on, evil? Considering what happened to the other kobolds this is nothing. The kolbold will walk away with all his extremities and just need +3 mouthwash. He's doing ok.:smallbiggrin:

[Burner28]

Alignment debates once again! How ..."unusual":smalltongue:

[Themrys]

Well said, sir. Or ma'am. Whichever.

There is definitely a difference between an evil act and a gross prank on someone who deserved it.

This is not a prank. It is torture, and thus evil. (Some so-called pranks are torture, too, only those who do it don't realize.)
You know, the reason why rape is a special kind of evil is not the pain. lt is the humiliation and defilement.
This so-called "prank" here comes close to rape. And just because it is androgynous elf on male kobold, it is not funny.

I recently read somewhere that men, unlike women, do not empathize with their enemies. This may be an hint on V's sex.

[Whiffet]

I had to read this between classes without a chance to comment earlier. :smallbiggrin: That was hilarious. Definitely approached the line, but it was still hilarious.

I don't care if V doesn't want to speak of it again, I want to see that bonus story!

[factotum]

Reading some of these comments, I really wonder why some people are apparently more squicked out by this than when Belkar fed a guard the intestines of the guy Mr. Scruffy killed in the arena...

[hamishspence]

V had already cast his spell, and dispelling it would be Good (you're actually acting to save/prevent harm to be done to someone other than you), considering that YukYuk is an enemy and would likely try to kill him if released.

"Making personal sacrifices to help others" is Good.

"Choosing not to assist somebody in an evil act" isn't quite the same thing.

[Michaeler]

Reading some of these comments, I really wonder why some people are apparently more squicked out by this than when Belkar fed a guard the intestines of the guy Mr. Scruffy killed in the arena...

Because this one has a name, and because we're getting to see a little more detail of the act in question and especially up-close reactions to it.

It's not a worse act, if anything the guard deserved it less because he was just trying not to be penniless in a city where vagrancy gets your family into serious trouble.

[Lynn]

RI'm surprised that so many people are reacting like it was the most disgusting act ever committed in the comic. Is there no one to remember this guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html)? He got force-fed intestines, from the guy Mr Sruffy just gutted. Crap isn't worse than bloody guts filled with crap. And all he did was making fun of Belkar's affection for Mr Scruffy. In comparison YukYuk got off lightly, getting the same treatment for a much more serious offense.

Concerning V, I think she is trying to be a better person, but she still has a neutral moral compass. She may think that Belkar has the right to have his revenge the way he pleases.

Edit: Ninja'd, so ninja'd. I need to type faster.
Re-edit:corrected the link.

[Themrys]

Reading some of these comments, I really wonder why some people are apparently more squicked out by this than when Belkar fed a guard the intestines of the guy Mr. Scruffy killed in the arena...

Belkar is known to be evil.

But Vaarsuvius...I am so sick of those treacherous elves. First they allure you with their androgynous beauty, then they turn out to be evil.

I'm heartbroken. :smallsigh:

I tried to play the dragon thing down, but now I recognize, I have been wrong. V has joined the side of evil. It cannot be denied any longer. (I dismissed the Tentacles of Forced Intrusion as happening before proper characterization took place...how could I be so blind?)


Well, I guess I now want a nice, safe, reliable paladin that I can depend on. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

I'm surprised that so many people are reacting like it was the most disgusting act ever committed in the comic. Is there no one to remember this guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html)?

He looks a bit different from the guy Belkar's confronting here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html

It might be the fact that Yok-yok's being forced to submit by the Dominate spell, that makes it "feel" more disturbing.

[Tundar]

OMG that was hillarious on several levels.
I'm very amused by the way Belkar and V both says no, but in each their ways.

And a MAJOR cliffhanger about V's adventures in the planes. Me want!!

[Michaeler]

I wonder whether V doesn't consider letting Belkar have his fun to be repaying the favour that Belkar did hir by shortening hir incarceration on the demiplane. Let's be honest, Belkar's skillset did speed up the rescue and Belkar is not someone you want to owe a favour to.

[Mr Jones]

Reading some of these comments, I really wonder why some people are apparently more squicked out by this than when Belkar fed a guard the intestines of the guy Mr. Scruffy killed in the arena...

Eh, I think it's more people not liking the joke. The arena thing was way worse, sure, but it was so over the top, and the delivery was so deadpan in a "yeah, this is horrible but we've been hanging out with this guy so long nothing is really surprising anymore" sort of way that it was funny.

Here I think it's just gross. And I say this freely admitting there's plenty of ways Rich could've had Belkar or Mr. Scruffy kill the hell out of the kobold that I probably would've found hilarious.

And after writing all that, I kinda feel like schmuck. I never have half so much to say about all the comedy gold.

[Cirin]

Also, either Rich is ignoring the rules again, or V has a variant of Overland Flight that allows it to be cast on other people apart from himself.

Well, Zz'dtri had a 3.0e version of Fly that was house-ruled in. No reason V couldn't have a Mass Overland Flight or Overland Flight Other spell.

It's a little like what Rich said about Tsukiko and the wights: she probably had a variant of Animate Dead that specifically let her churn out wights more efficiently.

Caster-specific researched variants of spells seem to be common in OotS. See also: Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.

[Tulio d Bard]

Well, I guess I now want a nice, safe, reliable paladin that I can depend on. :smallbiggrin:

Here's your paladin: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0174.html :smalltongue:

[Crod]

Hahahahahaaa! That was fantastic! I keep reading the last few panels over and over.

[Uchiha Richard]

I actually liked this comic and found it completely in character for both Belkar and V. Plus, the best part of the comic was the simultaneous "no" from them (although the Adventures of V was a close second). Also observe the expressions on V and Belkar, Belkar is amused and excited for what's to come, V comes across as indifferently deferring to Belkar (since can V really take the high ground when it comes to revenge?). Yeah, it's a bit on the gross side, but Belkar's been threatening to make litter boxes and pot chambers out of things forever. It's about time he actually did it.

[ti'esar]

Oog, that was nasty. Sorry, Giant, but toilet humor doesn't do it for me.

I have to say that Yukyuk is probably getting off easy here, though. Dude shot Belkar's cat.

[Idhan]

It's a little like what Rich said about Tsukiko and the wights: she probably had a variant of Animate Dead that specifically let her churn out wights more efficiently.

And all this time I thought she was using enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) on low-HD targets and using the obscure bit of the rules that says that death by negative levels = rise as wight next night unless otherwise stated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) to create her "seed" wights, and then using those to create more wights. (Also gets around the onyx material requirement for animate dead/create undead spells.)

[Crod]

I guess that situation is not entirely against the YukYuk's nature, or he might have thrown off the effect. Either that, or they figured it was worth it, hoping for him to fail a second saving throw as well.

[hamishspence]

And all this time I thought she was using enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) on low-HD targets and using the obscure bit of the rules that says that death by negative levels = rise as wight next night unless otherwise stated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) to create her "seed" wights, and then using those to create more wights. (Also gets around the onyx material requirement for animate dead/create undead spells.)

That's what I thought at the time:

Still doesn't exclude the possibility that the method of "making" the wight in question consisted of much zapping with enervation spells.

(Enervation is only 4th level, and can kill with negative energy, and (by DMG) a humanoid killed with negative energy comes back as a wight.
in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8288310&highlight=wight#post8288310)
and before that, this other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7770588&highlight=wight#post7770588)

Technically, spells like Enervation (which inflict negative levels) are the only way to create wights, since neither Create Undead nor Create Greater Undead lists them.

Killing a creature with an energy drain spell or effect (anything that inflicts negative levels) causes it to rise after death as a wight, unless the creature's specific effect says otherwise.

And Enervation does not have the Evil subtype.

However (at least by BoVD) creating undead at all is considered evil by default (unless there are specific exceptions).

So the spell isn't evil, but the side effect created when used to kill (creating the wight) is.

There is also the "creating evil creatures is evil" bit in the same book.

Which would imply that even if humanoids like lizardfolk, goblins, etc are Always evil in the Stickverse, the gods creating them is therefore also evil.

until The Giant mentioned her special spell.

[NinjaStylerobot]

This is just a bit...Much. I just don't like toilet humor.

Its not evil but just chaotic. Vs acting like a jerk, but not evil.

[Karoug]

I guess that situation is not entirely against the YukYuk's nature, or he might have thrown off the effect. Either that, or they figured it was worth it, hoping for him to fail a second saving throw as well.

2yukyuks1cat....

Am I the only one that the the simultaneous 'no' reminds of the 'usual suspects' bonding-at-the-line-up scene?

[Themrys]

Here's your paladin: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0174.html :smalltongue:

Well, at least Miko is not evil. Just...misled. However, she is dead, and therefore cannot replace V as the person I have a crush on. Also, she's too feminine for my taste.

I was rather thinking of O-Chul. He's too masculine for my taste, but he's so honourable and badass that I can overlook that, I guess. :smallwink:


@Crod: His silent cries do suggest it IS very much against his nature.

[Omergideon]

Because this one has a name, and because we're getting to see a little more detail of the act in question and especially up-close reactions to it.

It's not a worse act, if anything the guard deserved it less because he was just trying not to be penniless in a city where vagrancy gets your family into serious trouble.

And that act was hideous, vicious and makes me uncomfortable as well. Much of what Belkar does is this, and certainly nor comedy in my eyes. It is one thing when it is an enemy trying to kill youy (the first Kobold). This is causing unnecessary pain to someone just for amusement. That is evil in my eyes. As are such so called "pranks". The fact the harm is not lasting is the only redeeming feature of such so called pranks in my mind.

And yes, I find things like hazing, pain causing pranks and the like to be disgusting and hideous.

[MoonCat]

I'm just happy to see V back quickly. The punchline is fine, not as funny as yesterday's, but that's just opinion.

[Ted The Bug]

How on Earth is this particular comic controversial? I feel like everyone fails to remember any of the past bits of toilet humour and the like. Newsflash: Belkar is evil, and V, while a 'good guy' in the scheme of things, isn't without a serious cruel streak. It's a joke! And while not the most brilliant of comedic stylings known to man (hey guys, poop is funny!), it does the job.

I've actually been loving these recent comics. Everything feels much more natural, and the plot's flowing like, uh, something good that flows really well!

[Kokopelli Jones]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet (unless I missed it): V and Belkar are the two members of the Order of the Stick, who have companion animals of one sort or another. Whether or not this is an evil or merely chaotic act, V is going to be, at least somewhat sympathetic, when it comes to Belkar's anger at Mr. Scruffy being harmed.

[Almaseti]

Iiiick. That poor kobold. That's disgusting.

[Riverdance]

Belkar is known to be evil.

But Vaarsuvius...I am so sick of those treacherous elves. First they allure you with their androgynous beauty, then they turn out to be evil.

I'm heartbroken. :smallsigh:

I tried to play the dragon thing down, but now I recognize, I have been wrong. V has joined the side of evil. It cannot be denied any longer. (I dismissed the Tentacles of Forced Intrusion as happening before proper characterization took place...how could I be so blind?)


Well, I guess I now want a nice, safe, reliable paladin that I can depend on. :smallbiggrin:

I'd describe V more as powerful and apathetic with low morals and empathy.

QUESTION:
Do all elves taste like garlic or is it just V? In either case, why?

[ti'esar]

How on Earth is this particular comic controversial? I feel like everyone fails to remember any of the past bits of toilet humour and the like. Newsflash: Belkar is evil, and V, while a 'good guy' in the scheme of things, isn't without a serious cruel streak. It's a joke! And while not the most brilliant of comedic stylings known to man (hey guys, poop is funny!), it does the job.

I've actually been loving these recent comics. Everything feels much more natural, and the plot's flowing like, uh, something good that flows really well!

I'm a little puzzled at that as well. I don't think it was funny, but that's because I just plain don't like toilet humor - I'm not feeling any moral outrage here. Yukyuk hasn't done much to earn himself sympathy points.

[Tulya]

Belkar is an unapologetic evil character who has always been so, and he performed his arena act by himself.

The current behavior is shocking for being performed in complete freedom and security*, with the apparent consensus of two party members, and without any vocalized protest from the lawful good party member present. *(Outside of the immediate influence of the Empire of Blood)

Nevertheless, it's acceptable. It's a strong reminder that what V lamented and continues to work on improving was the terrible inefficiency in use of ultimate arcane might... not the evil and callousness during that time. V has never been ashamed of 'going both ways' on the alignment scale. V's energy being channeled to predominantly good acts tends to be a function of being in a predominantly good party, rather than out of an inherent interest in furthering the cause of good.

[Djibril]

LOL!... nuff said :smallbiggrin:

[Heksefatter]

V really, really needs to clean up hir act still...

[Mastikator]

Why is not killing Yuk Yuk first evil, moreso than killing Yuk Yuk first?
Simple. There was a small chance that Yuk Yuk would betray the Linear Guild, which would be very advantageous to the order. But now? Nope, never gonna happen. They HAVE to kill Yuk Yuk sooner or later, less they want his revenge.
Basically, they choose to torture and then murder, rather than no torture, probably no murder.
And why? Because he shot a cat.

[The Anarresti]

{{scrubbed}}

[bhtooefr]

I think I just figured out how Belkar dies.

Yukyuk gets another saving throw against V's domination, and then takes the opportunity to make something out of Belkar's head.

[Cranica]

I tried to play the dragon thing down, but now I recognize, I have been wrong. V has joined the side of evil. It cannot be denied any longer. (I dismissed the Tentacles of Forced Intrusion as happening before proper characterization took place...how could I be so blind?)

V is True Neutral per the Giant's direct word here on the forums. Of course, that doesn't preclude the occasional evil act.

[nogall]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet (unless I missed it): V and Belkar are the two members of the Order of the Stick, who have companion animals of one sort or another. Whether or not this is an evil or merely chaotic act, V is going to be, at least somewhat sympathetic, when it comes to Belkar's anger at Mr. Scruffy being harmed.

yes, I think you're onto something. V can relate to Belkar's concern for the cat now that V recognizes Blackwing as more than just a class feature.

[FatJose]

I've actually been loving these recent comics. Everything feels much more natural, and the plot's flowing like, uh, something good that flows really well!

Comic's been eating Activia.

[Voidfaith]

At least it was off panel. Still, disgusting comic.

Good way to remember that Belkar is CE and still deserves a horrible destiny.

[xroads]

Ewwwwww... :smallyuk:

I'm beginning to wonder if Xykon and Redcloak are really the most evil characters in this story! :smalleek:

~XRoads

[Kish]

You know, no one loves cats more than me. From the first time he shot at Mr. Scruffy, I would have killed Yukyuk out of hand and not thought twice about it.

But. Torturing Yukyuk is not a high moral point for Vaarsuvius, no matter how you look at it.

[Baelzar]

Thumbs up, Rich. A vengeful cat poopin' in a kobold's mouth is right up my alley. Haw haw!

Poop is funny. No reasonable person can deny this.

[ti'esar]

I beg to differ.

I do agree that, while people are probably getting overly worked up here, V's participation in this is not her finest hour.

[t209]

Thumbs up, Rich. A vengeful cat poopin' in a kobold's mouth is right up my alley. Haw haw!

Poop is funny. No reasonable person can deny this.

Do you think Yuk Yuk is need cat poop to lubricate the kobold gun?

[Subzero008]

Truly a Fate Worse Than Death.

[Khiron]

Ummm...gross. :smalleek:

[Khiron]

Ummm...gross.

[R. Shackleford]

Meh, kobolds aren't human. And they're fictional characters.

Until someone tears down reality and rewrites it so I have to be emphatic for them, I will lol heartily at their abuse. Besides, that particular kobold was just as likely to do the same thing to Belkar.

Because we can't commit atrocities towards the goblins anymore. They'll go to war over it.

[Tulya]

Feces never ceases to be somewhat nauseating, but that's largely by design: A biologically innate aversion to feces reduces the likelihood of exposure to disease. Beyond that, it merely is what it is.
I've never gotten toilet humor, nor the pleasure people derive from the misfortune of others. To me, the funny aspect of such situations is how preposterous the setting, reaction, or results are. Like, the concept of hammerspace is patently bizarre and humorous to me. I don't find 'comedic misfortune' that lacks those traits particularly interesting.

I don't see how either of those make me "unreasonable".

[The_Weirdo]

Eh. Quite frankly, here we see a kobold that shot V and Mr. Scruffy. Whatever V's alignment, V is very vengeful. And I mean whatever his alignment because even Good people have flaws. Belkar is a sociopath, so, well, yeah.

Now. Looking at this pragmatically, the kobold saw fit to shoot a cat for the heck of it. Okay. The problem is the owner of the cat might well turn out to be - for instance - a sociopath. And he did turn out to be one this time. Of course, we don't know Yukyuk, but he likely has done this very kind of thing countless times before. It was only a matter of time before he did it to a cat whose owner was more than a little evil.

As for V, Yukyuk is now learning a hard lesson: When you shoot a wizard, you'd better make darn sure to kill said wizard. Because, if you don't and said wizard holds a grudge (and BOY, does V hold one!), well, you'll suffer. A lot. And that is true regardless of the alignment of the wizard in question.

It is fairly Neutral to pay evil unto evil. A deity of - among other things - revenge and retribution, Hoar, in Forgotten Realms, is Lawful Neutral. Now, one can argue that torture (and doing what they did does qualify as torture as far as I'm concerned) is always Evil, but even that doesn't happen in a vacuum. Tarquin's torture of runaway slaves is quite more evil than V's and Belkar's torture of a kobold that tried to kill V and Mr. Scruffy, even if V's and Belkar's torture of Yukyuk is, indeed, at least somewhat Evil - though not enough to warrant an alignment change.

Then there is the issue of team playing. For ease of explanation, I'll use myself as an example. I fancy myself as Chaotic Neutral. In V's position I really wouldn't stick my neck out for the poor-little-kobold-that-tried-to-kill-me just so I could ask my clearly sociopathic teammate to crank it down a notch. I'd have every reason to treat the guy that tried to kill me with, at best, indifference. Even because I don't want to earn the ire of said clearly sociopathic teammate, a teammate who, might I add, would be VERY bloodthirsty at the kobold in question, enough to attack ME in order to take revenge on HIM if I interfered much or didn't help with his plans. It'd be like saying: "No, don't do this to him. Attack me first, THEN do something else to him without my help. RUN, kobold that tried to kill me, RUN!". V is True Neutral. That means V has even more of an incentive to be a team player than I do, and, thus, even less of an incentive to play nice with the kobold that, I repeat, tried to kill V. It can be argued that V enjoyed it; very well. That's the "vengeful" part.

Belkar is Belkar. He doesn't really need much more explanation than that. V doesn't owe anything to the kobold that tried to kill V, and would gain nothing by expressing moral outrage at the notion of doing this to said kobold. Especially because, well, as far as V is concerned, there is no moral outrage to be expressed here.

So, pragmatically: The kobold played with fire. He got burned. And morally: A Neutral has no reason whatsoever to risk themselves just to save the guy that fired bolts at him from a given (horrible) fate.

[Ornithologist]

If I may, the big outcry here is just how much like rape this act truly is. While sometimes murder is hilarious (I think Kobold hats are so completely funny you have no idea), but Rape is pretty much one of those things that people don't really like to joke about. Yes, the poop is gross. Yes, it is also very hilarious (for some, not me).

Its rape jokes that really make me squick.

P.S. - This is not an actual rape joke, it just feels very very uncomfortably close to one...

Though I do like the ranch plane story line

[Fitzclowningham]

And that act was hideous, vicious and makes me uncomfortable as well. Much of what Belkar does is this, and certainly nor comedy in my eyes. It is one thing when it is an enemy trying to kill youy (the first Kobold). This is causing unnecessary pain to someone just for amusement. That is evil in my eyes. As are such so called "pranks". The fact the harm is not lasting is the only redeeming feature of such so called pranks in my mind.

And yes, I find things like hazing, pain causing pranks and the like to be disgusting and hideous.

So when he shot a cat for fun you didn't think it rose to the level of disgusting and hideous, but making him eat cat $hit for it does?

[TheBossBoy]

*blarf*
>.<

...Yukyuk certainly lived up to his name.
It is also my comment on that.

[Tulya]

So when he shot a cat for fun you didn't think it rose to the level of disgusting and hideous, but making him eat cat $hit for it does?

Yukyuk is a villain. Villains aren't held to the same standards unless they're a noble antagonist, in which case they don't do such things for fun or they're not a noble antagonist by definition.
Edit: As characters, not as people.

A villain being the victim can be an extenuating circumstance that allows forgiveness or at least empathy with the hero. It doesn't make a hero committing a villainous act any "better", though.

[Fitzclowningham]

Yukyuk is a villain. Villains aren't held to the same standards unless they're a noble antagonist, in which case they don't do such things for fun or they're not a noble antagonist by definition.

A villain being the victim can be an extenuating circumstance that allows forgiveness or at least empathy with the hero. It doesn't make a hero committing a villainous act any "better", though.

Yes, yes, we need villains to drive the story, etc., but after all the moral outrages we've seen in the comic, to select this as some kind of defining moment is patently ridiculous. People are confusing their disgust with moral outrage and reasoning backwards.

[Conuly]

Yukyuk is a villain. Villains aren't held to the same standards unless they're a noble antagonist, in which case they don't do such things for fun or they're not a noble antagonist by definition.
Edit: As characters, not as people.

A villain being the victim can be an extenuating circumstance that allows forgiveness or at least empathy with the hero. It doesn't make a hero committing a villainous act any "better", though.

Belkar is hardly a hero, and although V is juuuuuuust this side of the hero/villain divide, frankly, it's not like condoning this act is what's pushing V into, um, "morally unjustified" territory.

As far as Durkon's actions, what exactly was he going to do, take on two of his least-good (I think it's reasonable that V was definitely Neutral at the start of this comic, and that V's teammates probably still think V is Neutral, whether V is or is not) teammates? In defense of a villain? WHO SHOT A DEFENSELESS HOUSE PET? I'm not sure I would want to stand up for such a person. Who the heck shoots a cat?

Of course, when you think about it, Scruffy's got the whole desert as a litterbox, so it's all superfluous. But that's beside the point.

[War]

I was also taken a little aback by this one. It's definitely pretty vile, which is par for the course with Belkar; but, while V may be Neutral rather than Good, V has also been making a concerted effort to veer away from the Evil side of the border. Especially given that V doesn't seem particularly angry or otherwise invested in punishing Yukyuk, and that it accomplishes nothing but making Belkar happy, I was a little put off that V is participating so readily. (And V IS participating, Yukyuk didn't decide to lie down and open wide because Mr Scruffy is so persuasive.)

But reviewing the discussion, part of that is that I just assumed they're going to execute Yukyuk after this, and that's not necessarily so, fair enough. If this is the entirety of his comeuppance, rather than the gang tormenting a helpless enemy for kicks before they finish him, that does paint it in a much less grotesque light. Mind, from the standpoint of pure practicality, killing Yukyuk is smarter, whereas pissing him off more without killing him should only ensure he comes back. But as I don't know what the OotS or Yukyuk is going to do from here, there's no point getting fussy about it now.

It also occurred to me, thinking it over, that V has spent a couple days alone with Yukyuk and apparently a mental link right to him. Given that from what we've seen Yukyuk is a nasty little guy himself, it would make sense that V has a genuine distaste for him and feels, in that detached way, that the kobold is probably asking for this kind of treatment. I mean, that's my extrapolation, not something that's particularly evident in this comic, but to me it makes more sense of this moment. (Likewise I am not saying that it would ethically justify anything, just that it would fit with the characters for me.)

EDIT because I forgot: I can't see why it wouldn't be simpler for everyone to just leave Yukyuk in the ranch dressing, though.

All that aside, I'm not a fan of scatological humor anyway, but hey, fast updates sure are nice! No need to worry all too much about a strip that leaves a bad taste in one's mouth (...cough) when we'll be seeing where it goes next so soon.

[Othesemo]

I'm sure that I'd be outraged if it was V who proposed the idea. However, the extent of his participation was to sit there, looking apathetic. It's a fairly pragmatic move to not upset or oppose your teammate, even if so doing results in the suffering of someone who tried to kill you. Far from good, but I'd generally label the action as closer to 'pragmatic' than 'evil.'

[Fitzclowningham]

I just realized something: Even though Belkar talks about his history of doing things to Kobolds, what V does (with Belkar's implicit encouragement) is facilitate Mr. Scruffy's revenge. The cat is certainly entitled to it, and pooping on things is a timelessly feline expression of displeasure. In the last panel, they're all looking at what the cat has taken it upon himself to do. This isn't (mainly) about Belkar and V's morality; it's about showing the wrath of a housecat.

[Darilian]

Has anyone considered that Belkar having Mr. Scruffy use the poor Kobold as a litter box while still alive could be a a step forward for the little creep?

I mean, better a live litter box, needing some listerine, than to be turned into someones hat!

As for V- on the cosmic scheme of things, this isn't that big of a deal.

Funny, however, it most definitely was!

Darilian

[ti'esar]

I just realized something: Even though Belkar talks about his history of doing things to Kobolds, what V does (with Belkar's implicit encouragement) is facilitate Mr. Scruffy's revenge. The cat is certainly entitled to it, and pooping on things is a timelessly feline expression of displeasure. In the last panel, they're all looking at what the cat has taken it upon himself to do. This isn't (mainly) about Belkar and V's morality; it's about showing the wrath of a housecat.

That's honestly why I'm not that outraged about it. For Yukyuk to be getting... what's he getting from the very same cat he viciously attacked in an all-but-literal "kick the dog" moment seems, in the words of Elan, "karma-riffic!" It's not a Good thing by a long shot, but it's almost impossible to think of someone more fitting for it to happen to.


Has anyone considered that Belkar having Mr. Scruffy use the poor Kobold as a litter box while still alive could be a a step forward for the little creep?

Yes - assuming he's not killed after this (or by it), Yukyuk has just had some incredible good luck.

[Arancaytar]

"Sauce Dragon" made me immediately think "KoL reference". Did Vaarsuvius take the opportunity to cross-class to Sauceror while on the other plane? :P

[rbetieh]

To all of those that made a big deal of poor Mr Scruffy lapping buttermilk....Kudos :smallwink:

[Rotipher]

I know we're all caught up in the great moral debate about whether subjecting Yukyuk to fecal feline forcefeeding (say that three times fast) is evil or not, but I just thought I'd mention in passing...

...it's worth the squickiness just to see Durkon's reaction, IMO. Bleah with a side order of double-bleah! :smallwink:

[Tobimaro]

Another use of Belkar's Craft Disturbing Mental Image feat? But this one came to life. :smallcool:

[ff6shadow]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3567/vomitfaceoy9.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/511/vomitfaceoy9.gif/)

I'm in agreement with Durkon. And I expect nothing less of Belkar. I did figure Varsuvias would be more likely to try and keep his useful weapon, but *shrug* can't guess them all.

[ti'esar]

Another use of Belkar's Craft Disturbing Mental Image feat? But this one came to life. :smallcool:

It's not the first time. Remember the unhappy fate of Buggy Lou (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html)?

[ss49]

We can remove the asterisks.

This kobold has to be Yak-yak. Because, YACK.

[Shonen Hero]

I lol'd. V's off-screen, ranch-themed planar adventures was the high point of the comic for me while the off-color scat humor was a definite low, but to each is his own. I'll probably forget about in the next slew of updates, anyway. :P

Speaking of, what V did for the Ranch people sounds particularly heroic in my opinion (though we don't have a whole lot of context for V's motives for doing it...) Maybe V just played along with Belkar because he's a bit burnt on the altruism angle after saving the residents of the Dipping Kingdom? And from the wording in the comic, it sounds like this may be the kobold's 'comeuppance' instead of cold-blooded murder, so while icky it doesn't seem completely callous.

[ti'esar]

Personally, I hope we don't ever see said off-panel adventures. It's funnier not knowing.

[Snurk]

Hahaha this strip is a big homage to the forum junkies here :)
Belkar even admits it ;)

Nice work Rich It made my day!

[zimmerwald1915]

Speaking of, what V did for the Ranch people sounds particularly heroic in my opinion (though we don't have a whole lot of context for V's motives for doing it...) Maybe V just played along with Belkar because he's a bit burnt on the altruism angle after saving the residents of the Dipping Kingdom? And from the wording in the comic, it sounds like this may be the kobold's 'comeuppance' instead of cold-blooded murder, so while icky it doesn't seem completely callous.
Do we have any evidence that V did anything other than play a game of D&D with the Ranch elemental a la Roy's game with Roy's Archon?

For that matter, do we know which of V and Y is "one-who-tastes-less-like-garlic"? It's perfectly possible that V sent Y off to save Gootrude and restore Prince Oozalot to get the elementals to quit bugging her, and the praise was meant for Y.

[Themrys]

V is True Neutral per the Giant's direct word here on the forums. Of course, that doesn't preclude the occasional evil act.

Where did the Giant say that alignment cannot change in the course of the story?

Also, I feel entitled to my own opinion on whether a character is evil or not. I am not one of those readers who believe anything an author says about a character.
I don't believe Stephenie Meyer that the Cullens are good, either.:smalltongue:

[Fairy Lisa]

Normally I don't like toilet humor at all, but Yuk Yuk completely deserved this.

1. He shot a cat. It could be the most evil cat in the multiverse, it could be a sin cat extorting doom babies by selling them overpriced apocalypse candy, stealing it back, and then reselling it back to them for triple the price due to "high demand", but it would still be a cat! And shooting cats: not cool. Forget good or evil, it is just wrong!

2. He’s a Kobold. Kobolds deserve whatever happens to them anyway.

3. Below.


It also occurred to me, thinking it over, that V has spent a couple days alone with Yukyuk and apparently a mental link right to him. Given that from what we've seen Yukyuk is a nasty little guy himself, it would make sense that V has a genuine distaste for him and feels, in that detached way, that the kobold is probably asking for this kind of treatment. I mean, that's my extrapolation, not something that's particularly evident in this comic, but to me it makes more sense of this moment. (Likewise I am not saying that it would ethically justify anything, just that it would fit with the characters for me.)

I know if I spent a couple days with a mental link to an evil cat-shooting sentient that had no recourse but to exploit that mental link for all its worth, I would not care about anything that happened to it afterwards, even if said sentient was not in fact a Kobold.

[cc_kizz]

Wow. This is really disgusting? Sure, it's really disgusting, but, in my opinion, it doesn't hold a candle to Mr. Scruffy's eviscerating moment in the arena. At least this wasn't on panel.

[Pandabear]

Now there's another kobold gone potty...