AC for a 'half-caster'

[Redland Jack]

If I'm playing a hybrid spellcaster (let's say a bard):

1) Is it worth it to give up one level of my spellcasting class to gain 9 AC?
2) Does it depend on what levels I'm at? (I.e., it might be worth it at level 5, okay at level 10, and not worth it at level 15)
3) What amount of AC would be worth giving up a level?
4) Would the answer be different if I were also the only spellcaster in the group?
5) As an alternative, would it be worth giving up 3 feats for 9 AC?

I've left the setup a bit general, since that might be more interesting to answer.

For my particular situation:
a) We're a small group
b) I'm the only spellcaster
c) We have gone from level 1 to level 5, so far
d) There are a ton of feats that I want, so I'd consider myself 'feat-starved'
e) If I had the armor boost, I'd probably go into melee (or at least try to absorb some blows); not having it (at the moment), I generally try to stay at range

[Manateee]

Armor class isn't worth much.

At low levels, high AC can be a useful defense, but even then, it can often be replaced by tactics (such as just getting out of the way/getting out of reach/using Cover, darkness and Prone rules to your advantage/maximizing reach to kill things as they approach) or spells (such as levitation to get out of reach, using Alter Self for an NA boost, Invisibility to just not be targeted).

Basically, it's not worth giving up a level for, unless you're getting something you really need. Any monster or enemy that you should actually be afraid of is going to have a way to target some other defense. And the ones that don't are typically easy to evade.

It's especially bad as the primary caster.

3 feats is way too many. Law devotion is one feat for +7, and it's not even a must-have.

And if you're the only caster, why would you want to run into melee?

[Orsen]

I you're looking at getting into melee while casting then my two cents is to set yourself up for Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage...90% sure). I don't remember if there are any feat pre reqs and I'm AFB so it might not work for you if you're already feat starved.

[Psyren]

Does that +9 apply to touch as well?

A 4th-level spell gives you +8 for at least 7 hours, and you can easily UMD it, so...

[gorfnab]

The general suggestion I have seen for AC is to shoot for a minimum AC equal to Character Level + 15 (so a 6th level character should be looking to have an AC of at least 21). I usually go for AC = Character Level + 20, just to be on the safe side. At higher levels though you'll want to look for stuff like concealment and other miss chances. For most casters though you want to avoid melee combat (casting defensively is annoying, and you usually don't have much HP) unless you are playing a gish build based on melee (duskblades, snowflake wardance bards, sorcadin, etc). For casters in melee look into spells like Mirror Image, Invisibility, Displacement, Summon Monster (fight my pet instead of me), Fly (you can't reach me), and others.

[Redland Jack]

I failed to mention (and I should have realized that this is extremely relevant, at least to my particular situation, as opposed to my general question) that our book selection is very limited (in particular, the spell list is pretty small). It's basically PHB + 'house rules'.

That being said:

Psyren: the +9 wouldn't apply to touch

Orsen: yeah, sorry, I definitely should have mentioned the small book set we have

Manateee:

Hmm. Okay. I was leaning towards doing it, but, with what you're saying, I'm leaning the other way.

Oh, the reason I'd head into melee, is that my two allies have an AC around 20, whereas, I'd be at AC 27 or so. (We're not a particularly optimized party!) They're both pretty good at dealing damage, but are mostly lacking in any sort of abilities other than, "swing sword".

Tactically, I've mostly been relying on darkness and/or grease for more dangerous encounters.

[Chronos]

Non-touch AC definitely isn't worth giving up a level for, especially since you've probably got ways available to get some of that even as a caster. You can also get an armor bonus from a Mage Armor spell, or from Bracers of Armor, and that won't stack with the bonus from wearing metal clothing. Likewise for shields and natural armor.

[Coidzor]

1) Is it worth it to give up one level of my spellcasting class to gain 9 AC?

For my particular situation:
a) We're a small group
b) I'm the only spellcaster
c) We have gone from level 1 to level 5, so far

Your question, you have answered it with a most emphatic no.

If some of the rest of your group had started picking up the slack, rather than continuing to foist responsibility onto you, then you could actually maybe consider it and then dismiss it as laughable and not worth it.

As it stands, you shouldn't even be considering this in the first place.

[Redland Jack]

Thanks all. I had been leaning towards doing it, but I think I'll give it a pass.

[ericgrau]

1) Sure, if it's an untyped or other stackable bonus, not say going from no AC to normal AC bonuses like now you wear armor and before you didn't, or going from light to heavy armor.
2) AC is very cheap to get so you can keep up even until level 15 as long as you put the money in. At +9 you don't even need to spend the full amount.
3) Not sure. I'll put the upper limit at +5 because that's enough to be practically unhittable on a reasonable defense budget, and see #4. If your dex is less than your armor's max dex then increase the +5 by that difference.
4) Nah, you can get by at -1. You have other spells.
5) Sure, 9 is a lot.

Enemy attack bonus only goes up by 1.25 a level. I don't know how people can even make a case against this without totally ignoring the numbers and throwing out guesses based on popular opinion. Even if you make the assumption AC is only worth it at level 5, +9 means it'll be worth it at level 12 even if you don't spend a single penny on more AC. Which is highly unrealistic. 3-4 dirt cheap +1s or +2s and bam you have enough for a few more levels. Spend a reasonable amount, but still small, and you are now immune to weapon damage at all levels. That seems far from minor. Next work on your saves I suppose.

The other thing to worry about if you're limited by feats are the concentration checks to cast on the defensive. Not at level 15, but at level 5 it's a big deal. So then you need to coordinate well with allies to always be able to 5 foot away or get combat casting, which is yet another feat.

[Psyren]

If you have no other spells beyond PHB, AND its untyped (read: stacks with armor), I'd say go for it.

Even better if it stacks with natural armor; as a level 5 bard you can alter self into a Troglodyte for +6 more AC.

[Redland Jack]

gorfnab -- Though I'm currently below the +15/+20 rule of thumb, I should be able to get there eventually.

psyren -- Yeah, it will stack with natural armor, so I'd be able to get a fairly robust AC!

ericgrau --

I think my AC be something like (depending on whether I splash the level):

level 6: 18 or 27
level 10: 28 or 37
level 15: 37 or 45 (though maybe only 31 or 39)
level 20: 43 or 50

My original thought was that I'd generally be happy 2/3 of the time to have the AC and unhappy 1/3 of the time (at levels 8 and 9, I'd be happy, but at level 10 I'd rather have access to 4th level spells, similarly, 11 and 12 I'd be happy, and 13 I'd be unhappy, and so forth)...

Of course, 5th level is as high as I've ever advanced in P&P D&D, so it's unclear to me how useful AC will be at higher levels. Maybe I'm just getting hit with special abilities or I'd be better off using some other form of evasion...

[Venger]

I you're looking at getting into melee while casting then my two cents is to set yourself up for Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage...90% sure). I don't remember if there are any feat pre reqs and I'm AFB so it might not work for you if you're already feat starved.

you need combat casting. a 1st lvl abj spell known, and proficiency with 1 martial weapon. it is indeed in cmage.