What makes a guy a creep? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Poison_Fish

2012-02-14, 05:02 PM

While yes, women are not a hive mind, there are certainly behaviors and actions that are... "gender-typical". I believe that is what people are generally talking about in cases like this. Guys do understand that women have different personalities. However, I also know that there are ways in which most women act similar, and that generally means that they would at least think similarly as well.

Keep in mind that for nearly every stereotype and social misconception, there was usually a time in which it WAS what the majority of the group did. It's not like people just make stuff up outta thin air all the time. Groups of people (whether they're grouped by nationality, race, gender, what-have-you) do tend to have traits and ways of acting/thinking that are common. It's how the groups get started.

I suggest that you do not attempt to use pseudo-sociology to explain stereotyping. That is actually incorrect. Stereotyping is actually formed primarily by exaggerated differences between groups based on a (little t) truth. Do note, that truth (as opposed to Truth) is not objective and is actually only something created from the discourse of a perspective.

Primarily it is 1. The establishment of distinctive groups (Us and them)
2. The lack of familiarity between the groups (all those people I don't know)
3. Exaggerated differences between the core and the other group based on a perceived (little t) truth.

Dallas-Dakota

2012-02-14, 05:02 PM

Don't be this guy.
http://images.wikia.com/yogscast/images/4/45/Creeper_Boss_skin.png

bluewind95

2012-02-14, 05:22 PM

It's also creepy if someone tells me that they love me when I don't know them well at all.

This. SO much this. Also when they don't know you well at all.

Also what Nerd-o-rama said. Much wisdom in those words.

The Succubus

2012-02-14, 05:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPZmPaHme0

I'll see your video and raise you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkzRNyygfk&ob=av2e

Astrella

2012-02-14, 05:29 PM

That's only the feminists, not all women. Don't be so sexist.

THIS POST BROUGHT TO YOU IN KENJIVISION. IT IS A JOKE.

Don't be silly, it's not like we have a moonbase or something. >.>

The Succubus

2012-02-14, 05:40 PM

Don't be silly, it's not like we have a moonbase or something. >.>

I knew you were holding out on me, Astrella! :smallfrown:

"Fly me to the Moon and let me flirt among the stars
The women came from Venus and the guys all came from Mars..."

warty goblin

2012-02-14, 05:42 PM

Some examples from a guy I used to work with:

Trying to seduce somebody with the line 'choose my log.'

Mention that your log should be chosen because you still have half a six pack, and would be willing to share.

Trying to pick up a barrista by pulling out your wallet, explaining that you have some cash and can show her a good time.

Trying to pay a prostitute with a radio.

Asking whether vinegar will kill herpes.

Shacking up with a lady who just got out of jail and would otherwise be homeless.

Sleeping with a convicted pedophile out on bail while still living with the first convict.

After the first convict leaves, moving into a decrepit house across from the middle school, while still sleeping with the pedophile.

Owning a large van throughout the above period of time.

Stealing two bottles of wine from the bar, then stalking a waitress to her other job, sixty miles away.

You meet interesting people working in food service.

Not a complete list, but should you ever do anything on this list, creepiness has definitely been established.

(This was all one guy, who was so entirely creepy even my boss at the time, who to hear him tell it had restraining orders covering most of several states and periodically asked if I had ever had sex with a sheep, found him deeply disturbing.)

Serpentine

2012-02-14, 05:51 PM

Also relevant. (http://www.cracked.com/article_18804_the-6-wrong-questions-men-love-to-ask-about-women.html)

curtis

2012-02-14, 06:04 PM

Not a complete list, but should you ever do anything on this list, creepiness has definitely been established.

Anything on the list? Anything? Van ownership included?

Serpentine

2012-02-14, 06:05 PM

ESPECIALLY the van! :smalltongue:

warty goblin

2012-02-14, 06:07 PM

Anything on the list? Anything? Van ownership included?

You never saw his van. Or his house - apparently he kept mannequin parts in the attic.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-14, 06:16 PM

ESPECIALLY the van! :smalltongue:
But vans let me haul my stuff!

(What? You try camping at a war reenactment for ten days without a van load of stuff. :smalltongue:)

Weezer

2012-02-14, 06:30 PM

But vans let me haul my stuff!

(What? You try camping at a war reenactment for ten days without a van load of stuff. :smalltongue:)

You needed a van for a mere 10 days of camping? Real men fit all their stuff in one backpack and then carry it over mountains. :smalltongue:

Kalmageddon

2012-02-14, 06:40 PM

Also relevant. (http://www.cracked.com/article_18804_the-6-wrong-questions-men-love-to-ask-about-women.html)

That basically takes all the most irritating aspects of women and blame it on men and I disagree.
Compromise is the way to go.

I personally find it very irritating that men have to think such things as "what should I do to not be considered a creep". Be relaxed, be confident and treat her as you would treat anyone else, you don't need special precautions when approaching a female.
And if she backs away anyway its probably because she has personal issues and you should let her be.

Riverdance

2012-02-14, 06:45 PM

Yeah what Nerd-o-rama said on page 1.

Take some quiet time to think about what you actually want to say. If you're being true and honest I think it's hard to come across as creepy.

(and if you do anyway you probably have some deeper issues:smallbiggrin:)

kyoryu

2012-02-14, 06:56 PM

I think the biggest creepy thing a guy can do is to presume that there is more of a relationship than there really is.

See: "I love you" when you don't know her, not accepting a rejection, etc.

Closely related is treating women not as actual people, but as objects. This doesn't just mean treating them as sex objects, but the common "putting her on a pedestal" is just as objectifying.

SaintRidley

2012-02-14, 07:00 PM

Kalmageddon

2012-02-14, 07:19 PM

You're not familiar with the concept of Nice Guyism, are you? Because that article is not touching anything that is an aspect of women. It's about things Nice Guys think are aspects of women which prompt them to come to their very wrong conclusions about women, when the problem actually is with the Nice Guys.

Nah dude I have no clue. I try to stay away as much as I can from articles and theories about relationships and it has done me nothing but good. :smallwink:

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-14, 07:25 PM

You needed a van for a mere 10 days of camping? Real men fit all their stuff in one backpack and then carry it over mountains. :smalltongue:
My stuff includes full armor and several weapons. :smalltongue:

Steven

2012-02-14, 07:28 PM

Lady Tialait

2012-02-14, 07:51 PM

Fun fact: by stereotyping and accusing a whole sex of being shallow and offensive like that, yours is the statement that comes out as offensive instead.

"Men are pigs"

Grinner

2012-02-14, 07:53 PM

Even if women did act in "gender-typical" ways (and I'm not going to touch that debate with a SITFP because I don't know enough about it) you should never presume that any given individual will.

To the contrary, a stereotype is a perfectly legitimate social utility. They're used as a model of behavior with which to predict an individual's behavior until better information is gathered (i.e. talking to him). They only become a problem when a person chooses to act on a stereotyped person without having actually learned about the individual in question, or when that same person chooses to ignore gathered information.

SweetLikeLemons

2012-02-14, 07:56 PM

That basically takes all the most irritating aspects of women and blame it on men and I disagree.
Compromise is the way to go.

I personally find it very irritating that men have to think such things as "what should I do to not be considered a creep". Be relaxed, be confident and treat her as you would treat anyone else, you don't need special precautions when approaching a female.
And if she backs away anyway its probably because she has personal issues and you should let her be.

Someone already mentioned this, but in case you missed it: Women are on average smaller and less physically strong than men. There are men out there (yes, I realize they are a very very small percentage of all men) who take advantage of that. Women hear all the time about women who were assaulted. Statistically, most women probably know someone who was. And when we hear these stories, we also hear judgements and warnings along with them. "What was she doing in that part of town alone at night?" "Did you see how she dressed?" "Well, she was drinking..." "Don't wear ponytails, rapists can grab them." "Carry your keys between your fingers so you can use them as a weapon." "Don't ever accept an open drink that you didn't watch being poured." "In a worst-case scenario, you can even use your lipstick to gouge at his eye."

It is pretty easy to internalize this into a constant, low-grade fear. Not that most women immediately look at every man they meet as a potential rapist, but if a woman is more sensitive than you would be about possible warning signs, can you blame her? Yes, it is possible that she has something in her past that means you had no shot to begin with, but it is also possible that something about what you said, or your non-verbal communication made her decide not to take that chance with you.

zimmerwald1915

2012-02-14, 08:01 PM

There are men out there (yes, I realize they are a very very small percentage of all men) who take advantage of that.
Perhaps not so small a percentage after all. The percentage of men that is actually fairly small is the percentage that commits a state-punishable offense and gets called out on it. But taking advantage? That percentage is much larger.

Silviya

2012-02-14, 08:02 PM

Serpentine

2012-02-14, 08:04 PM

Um... I'm not sure if how many guys are rapists is really the best way for this thread to go >.> Although my idea of a creep stopped a lot short of that, so maybe it's a matter of definitions...

zimmerwald1915

2012-02-14, 08:11 PM

Um... I'm not sure if how many guys are rapists is really the best way for this thread to go >.>
Probably not. But that wasn't the bar that was set. The bar was set at "taking advantage". And that is a mighty low bar. Not that nitpicking over semantics is the best direction for the thread to go either.

In retrospect I probably ought not to be posting in this thread, having no useful advice whatsoever and still feeling the urge to take up bandwidth. Maybe that's a metaphor for something. :smallsigh:

loopy

2012-02-14, 09:06 PM

Listening to Radiohead makes a guy a Creep.

H Birchgrove

2012-02-14, 09:11 PM

"Men are pigs"

Please stop insulting pigs. They are clean, intelligent animals. :smallwink:

Ceric

2012-02-14, 09:11 PM

"Don't wear ponytails, rapists can grab them."

Wait, really? I thought you were supposed to wear a ponytail or a braid in a fight. Pulling a ponytail hurts a lot less than grabbing and pulling a random handful of long hair... I suppose the solution is nothing longer than a buzzcut :smalltongue:

Serpentine

2012-02-14, 09:14 PM

I expect in this sort of situation the issue is grabbing and holding rather than hurting, and generally short hair is the "best" option (I learn things from Tamora Pierce :smallwink:).

Knaight

2012-02-14, 09:20 PM

To the contrary, a stereotype is a perfectly legitimate social utility. They're used as a model of behavior with which to predict an individual's behavior until better information is gathered (i.e. talking to him). They only become a problem when a person chooses to act on a stereotyped person without having actually learned about the individual in question, or when that same person chooses to ignore gathered information.

Given that stereotypes have a huge track record of being wrong, and casual observation reveals that they are terrible models in basically all cases using them is a bad idea. Incorrect information is even worse than no information, particularly when actual good information is easy to come by.

Ceric

2012-02-14, 09:22 PM

Never tried it before, but I'd imaging untied hair could be held just as easily as tied hair as well as giving that extra pain. And yes, short hair seems to be the best option, but then my ears and neck get cold :smalltongue: Also I just like long hair.

Grinner

2012-02-14, 09:44 PM

Given that stereotypes have a huge track record of being wrong, and casual observation reveals that they are terrible models in basically all cases using them is a bad idea. Incorrect information is even worse than no information, particularly when actual good information is easy to come by.

Well, you've gotta start somewhere.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-02-14, 09:53 PM

"Men are pigs"

Is funny because is true!

Wait a minute...

Coidzor

2012-02-14, 09:56 PM

Anything on the list? Anything? Van ownership included?

Didn't you know? Only soccer moms are allowed to own minivans. And professional painters and lanscapers are the most naturally creepy group of men commonly encountered in the wild. :smalltongue: It's a great mystery as to why people with kids are allowed SUVs unqeustionably.

Just look at how creepy these blokes be. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAMRTGv82Zo) :smallamused:

Lady Tialait: Case in point. :smalltongue:

loopy: Good lad. :smallbiggrin:

You needed a van for a mere 10 days of camping? Real men fit all their stuff in one backpack and then carry it over mountains. :smalltongue:

Not having a change of underwear or spare socks usually just helps make it all the more authentic, after all.

Serpentine

2012-02-14, 10:00 PM

Well, you've gotta start somewhere.I find "I don't know" to be one of the best.

Coidzor

2012-02-14, 10:06 PM

I find "I don't know" to be one of the best.

The Socratic method of dating, eh? :smallamused: Interesting thought, that.

Serpentine

2012-02-14, 10:13 PM

I think it's the most honest way to start... a whole lot of things.

danzibr

2012-02-14, 10:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPZmPaHme0
Exactly what I was going to say.

Grinner

2012-02-14, 10:46 PM

I find "I don't know" to be one of the best.

Each to their own.

Surrealistik

2012-02-14, 10:59 PM

Exactly what I was going to say.

It's the only real answer.

Worira

2012-02-14, 11:23 PM

Probably not. But that wasn't the bar that was set. The bar was set at "taking advantage". And that is a mighty low bar. Not that nitpicking over semantics is the best direction for the thread to go either.

In retrospect I probably ought not to be posting in this thread, having no useful advice whatsoever and still feeling the urge to take up bandwidth. Maybe that's a metaphor for something. :smallsigh:

At taking advantage of women being on average smaller and weaker than men? No, that seems like you'd pretty much either be talking about rape or something along the lines of "Hey, want me to give you a hand with those [bags/books/gold ingots/stack of bricks]?" Which is, you know, not relevant.

Uh, except don't offer to carry a something for a woman unless you know her or she's visibly struggling with it. That's creepy.

Uh, unless you're a porter or something.

RoboHobo

2012-02-14, 11:27 PM

I have a Y chromosome, but here's my 2sp:

Not accepting being rejected
Feeling like they are entitled to have a "hot" woman
Hitting on people in places they can't quickly leave from (e.g. elevators, long queues)
Hanging around and following women but always keeping your distance
Playing games and not being honest (e.g. backhanded compliments)

SweetLikeLemons

2012-02-15, 12:26 AM

Um... I'm not sure if how many guys are rapists is really the best way for this thread to go >.> Although my idea of a creep stopped a lot short of that, so maybe it's a matter of definitions...

Probably not. But that wasn't the bar that was set. The bar was set at "taking advantage". And that is a mighty low bar. Not that nitpicking over semantics is the best direction for the thread to go either.

Yikes, no, I didn't intend to take it in such a direction at all. For one thing, it is irrelevant to my point, which is that as a woman I come at the whole "Is this stranger dangerous?" problem from a different starting point than I think most men do. I just meant that I am much more vulnerable physically than most men I know, and have been getting the message since childhood that the world is a dangerous place and if something happens to me it is partly my fault for not being careful enough. Keeping that viewpoint in mind might make it easier to see why something that seems innocuous to a man could seem creepy to a woman, instead of just writing it off as something wrong with her.

Wait, really? I thought you were supposed to wear a ponytail or a braid in a fight. Pulling a ponytail hurts a lot less than grabbing and pulling a random handful of long hair... I suppose the solution is nothing longer than a buzzcut :smalltongue:

A handful of hair you can pull away from, albeit minus a bit of scalp. Not so with a ponytail. Grabbing a ponytail does give someone a surprising degree of control. However, I still wear ponytails. I don't like to let fear drive my fashion choices, and I feel if a woman is attacked, it is not because of her hairstyle (or clothing choices either!). I used that example because advice like that can come a bit close to victim blaming for my liking.

I have a Y chromosome, but here's my 2sp:

Not accepting being rejected
Feeling like they are entitled to have a "hot" woman
Hitting on people in places they can't quickly leave from (e.g. elevators, long queues)
Hanging around and following women but always keeping your distance
Playing games and not being honest (e.g. backhanded compliments)

Yes. All of that is creepy. Thank you for not doing those things.

Ya Ta Hey!

2012-02-15, 01:12 AM

What gets a normal guy labelled as a creep:
-Accidentally doing something that comes off as desperate, predatory, or otherwise lame while courting. Will become less frequent (and painful) with practice, maturity, and honest reflection.

What makes a normal guy a creep:
-Accepting that label and entertaining thoughts that are desperate, predatory, or lame. Lasts for years, affects other areas of life.

What a normal guy can do about it:

Not let this one word punch holes in your psyche. That's right, "let". This is 100% yours to allow, whether you realize or not.

zimmerwald1915

2012-02-15, 01:28 AM

Yikes, no, I didn't intend to take it in such a direction at all. For one thing, it is irrelevant to my point, which is that as a woman I come at the whole "Is this stranger dangerous?" problem from a different starting point than I think most men do. I just meant that I am much more vulnerable physically than most men I know, and have been getting the message since childhood that the world is a dangerous place and if something happens to me it is partly my fault for not being careful enough. Keeping that viewpoint in mind might make it easier to see why something that seems innocuous to a man could seem creepy to a woman, instead of just writing it off as something wrong with her.
I didn't want to get back into this, but I don't think we disagree. I took issue with your "extremely small percentage" because a) it was incorrect: relevance to the argument aside, the number of dangerous men is not vanishingly small and b) including such a disclaimer came off as an unnecessary softening of your argument's blow. This last iteration of your argument did not contain it, and was the more solid for not having done so.

Knaight

2012-02-15, 03:05 AM

Each to their own.
I'm reasonably sure that we can somewhat objectively state that "I don't know" is better than "I don't know, but screw it, I have wrong information and plan to treat it as if it isn't so as to have something".

Kalmageddon

2012-02-15, 04:24 AM

It is pretty easy to internalize this into a constant, low-grade fear. Not that most women immediately look at every man they meet as a potential rapist, but if a woman is more sensitive than you would be about possible warning signs, can you blame her? Yes, it is possible that she has something in her past that means you had no shot to begin with, but it is also possible that something about what you said, or your non-verbal communication made her decide not to take that chance with you.

I am well aware of these possibilities and as I said in one of my previous posts "if she has personal issues you should let her be".
What I am saying however is that when girls act like this they are doing a large number of men wrong and since I don't feel any "gender guilt" and I never raped anyone I am not going to tolerate not being treated with the respect and dignity that every men who has not commited violence should be treated with.

Mine is not a lack of understanding of the issue, it's a deliberate stance I am taking. I never have nor I never will treat a woman in a different way then I would treat a man. Most women I've met appreciate this, luckly, the few that don't I don't care for, regardless of their reasons, sorry.
Which probably makes me ever worse in your eyes, as I know and understand but I choose not to tolerate women that act like this anyway.
But please refrain from personal attacks or bring them to private messages.

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 04:36 AM

What I am saying however is that when girls act like this they are doing a large number of men wrong and since I don't feel any "gender guilt" and I never raped anyone I am not going to tolerate not being treated with the respect and dignity that every men who has not commited violence should be treated with.

...How? :smallconfused: I mean, what can one really do when given the cold shoulder in response to a greeting?

Kalmageddon

2012-02-15, 04:43 AM

...How? :smallconfused: I mean, what can one really do when given the cold shoulder in response to a greeting?

By simply not giving a **** and walking away, without shame or guilt because you did nothing wrong, instead of going all "what did I do to deserve this?" on yourself.
Simple as that.

GolemsVoice

2012-02-15, 04:49 AM

A handful of hair you can pull away from, albeit minus a bit of scalp. Not so with a ponytail. Grabbing a ponytail does give someone a surprising degree of control. However, I still wear ponytails. I don't like to let fear drive my fashion choices, and I feel if a woman is attacked, it is not because of her hairstyle (or clothing choices either!). I used that example because advice like that can come a bit close to victim blaming for my liking.

I really don't know, and I'm a man, so I never had to care about such things, but is it really that dangerous? Rape is a terrible, terrible crime, as is violence in general, but that makes it sound like there's a world of pain just waiting for women to let their guard down. Maybe it's a local thing, but the women I know here in Germany don't seem to worry about such things that much. But then again I don't live in a big city, where such things might occure more often.

I didn't want to get back into this, but I don't think we disagree. I took issue with your "extremely small percentage" because a) it was incorrect: relevance to the argument aside, the number of dangerous men is not vanishingly small and b) including such a disclaimer came off as an unnecessary softening of your argument's blow. This last iteration of your argument did not contain it, and was the more solid for not having done so.

Have you got any proof for this? And how do you define dangerous? This seems very generalised statement: "Yes, men are dangerous, don't let anyone else tell you otherwise!" and as a man, I'd object. That's not saying that the opposite is true, there sure are men out there who are dangerous, and these are criminals, no two ways about it.

EDIT: I know that talking about such things is a veritable minefield, and I wanted to emphatize again that should I have said anything insulting, directly or indirectly, it was not intended to be so.

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 04:56 AM

By simply not giving a **** and walking away, without shame or guilt because you did nothing wrong, instead of going all "what did I do to deserve this?" on yourself.
Simple as that.

Hmm. :smallconfused: Then I must be missing out on how such sentiments are expressed IRL then, aside from either someone being foolhardy enough to take a women's studies class and not be a woman or someone being foolish enough to voice the sentiment that all men are rapists/pigs/broken-women in another class where they'll be challenged as a matter of course.

Even the condescending(oh how the ones I have read have dripped with it!) blog article/lists on the subject that boil down to "don't be surprised when women go out of their way to avoid you if you're a strange man who is holding the door or elevator for them" mostly just talk about active avoidance and the cold shoulder as the only real expressions of such things. As far as I've read, though I've only encountered 3 rather similarly worded ones, at least one of which I believe has already been linked.

It just seems like anything that wouldn't be challenging the behavior or calling the mindset out on its horse pucky status would be considered tolerating it. Or did I misread that and it's more about tolerating the concept and use of such behavior to cause men to feel distress and shame?

Juggling Goth

2012-02-15, 05:52 AM

Okay, bear with me, I'm about to answer all of the questions you can possibly have "about women" in three sentences:

Women are not a collective gender with some kind of hivemind, nor are they objects, means to an end, or some kind of mystical animal to be pursued. They are individual people. Treat them as such.

Do this, young one, and you are not a creep.

This this this this this.

Being treated like thing not a person; being treated as a means to an end; being treated as an opportunity to get laid. These things are creepy.

For me personally, it's any sensation that my feelings - including and most especially my feelings of personal safety - are irrelevant. The two big ones here are:

a) the guy being interested in me because I have the relevant girl-parts and hey, it's worth a try, right? No. It is not worth a try, and I am not just a life-support system for my girl-parts.

b) any sense that the guy is not inclined to take no for an answer. This includes the obvious (if you become abusive when I reject you, I am not going to change my mind, but I might start assessing nearby weapons and escape routes), but also things like ignoring or taking advantage of the power dynamics of a situation (ie trapped in a small space with the guy; pre-existing power differentials; no witnesses or easy escape route; offering or doing favours with an implied quid pro quo, especially unwanted ones).

Oh, and it's mostly a mixture of a and b above, but a sense of entitlement. To company - many people seem incapable of figuring out that if I'm on my own, engrossed in a book, not making eye contact and responding in monosyllables, then maybe I want to be LEFT ALONE and their company is not actually god's gift. To sex - "but what am I doing wrong? I'm still not getting laid!" To whatever. An attitude that other living, thinking, independent beings are there to provide for your own needs (and they're not needs, they're wants) is inherently creepy.

Asta Kask

2012-02-15, 05:55 AM

For me personally, it's any sensation that my feelings - including and most especially my feelings of personal safety - are irrelevant. The two big ones here are:

a) the guy being interested in me because I have the relevant girl-parts and hey, it's worth a try, right? No. It is not worth a try, and I am not just a life-support system for my girl-parts.

The sense that he is just using you to get a quickie? Yeah, I can see how that would be creepy.

SweetLikeLemons

2012-02-15, 06:00 AM

I am well aware of these possibilities and as I said in one of my previous posts "if she has personal issues you should let her be".
What I am saying however is that when girls act like this they are doing a large number of men wrong and since I don't feel any "gender guilt" and I never raped anyone I am not going to tolerate not being treated with the respect and dignity that every men who has not commited violence should be treated with.

Mine is not a lack of understanding of the issue, it's a deliberate stance I am taking. I never have nor I never will treat a woman in a different way then I would treat a man. Most women I've met appreciate this, luckly, the few that don't I don't care for, regardless of their reasons, sorry.
Which probably makes me ever worse in your eyes, as I know and understand but I choose not to tolerate women that act like this anyway.
But please refrain from personal attacks or bring them to private messages.

I'm sorry you felt that what I posted earlier was a personal attack. It was not intended to be. I was merely mentioning a particular mindset as something to be aware of, when trying to put oneself in another person's shoes to consider if something could come off as creepy. Giving my own answer to the theme of the thread and all. I quoted your post because I find irritating the idea that if a girl politely refuses someone's advances, it is because she has issues (or is superficial). Walking away after a refusal is excellent, but in some cases applying some empathy beforehand might prevent the brush-off in the first place.

I don't think you are bad, let alone worse. Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't know you, I don't judge you. I just disagree a bit with an opinion you stated. I applaud your commitment to treat men and women as equals. I'm a big fan of that. Out of curiosity, if a guy turned down your offer to buy him a beer, would that also be due to personal issues?

I never said that all men should feel "gender guilt" because there are men out there who have committed crimes against women. However, these crimes do occur, and the attitudes I mentioned do exist. I reserve the right to treat men making sexual advances with an abundance of caution, and be treated with respect and dignity when I do. If a man who is hitting on me makes me feel unsafe or uncomfortable, I am not "doing men wrong" by ending that conversation.

Ceric

2012-02-15, 06:04 AM

I really don't know, and I'm a man, so I never had to care about such things, but is it really that dangerous? Rape is a terrible, terrible crime, as is violence in general, but that makes it sound like there's a world of pain just waiting for women to let their guard down. Maybe it's a local thing, but the women I know here in Germany don't seem to worry about such things that much. But then again I don't live in a big city, where such things might occure more often.

Whether or not it's true, that's definitely how they teach it whenever they talk about sexual assault. I remember they cited statistics that something like every 1 in 4 women gets sexually assaulted in their lifetime, and made us look around the room and realize that the next victims could very well be us. Or something like that. Basically, they tell everyone not to sexually assault anyone*, but then they go on and say, if you assume every guy on the street wants to rape you (if you're a girl), here's what you need to do...

*http://i43.tinypic.com/292kwph.jpg

GolemsVoice

2012-02-15, 06:31 AM

That's.... strange. It might make sense for people who have these urges, can't control them and regret them, but if it is meant to apply to all men equally then I'd feel insulted. It makes men look like animals barely able to function normaly around women, and just working on not breaking all rules of civilization at any given time. If you help someone with their car, don't assault them? But I thought that was tradition? These tips read like something you might give to somebody who has never heard of the concept of society. I realise there ARE men (and probably some women) like this out there, and I despise them, but that shocked me, honestly.

So I'm supposed to tell people "Yeah, I'm helping you with your PC, but may I rape you after that?" And the woman is supposed to react like "Oh, not today, I'm having a headache, but thanks for asking", and you're like "Ok, see you tommorrow?" Because that sounds like everytime a man strikes up a conversation without telling you beforehand that he either plans or doesn't plan to rape you, he WILL rape you.

SweetLikeLemons

2012-02-15, 06:48 AM

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 06:50 AM

The sense that he is just using you to get a quickie? Yeah, I can see how that would be creepy.

Even creepier is that we have locations dedicated to the purpose of seeking such out.

Kalmageddon

2012-02-15, 06:52 AM

I'm sorry you felt that what I posted earlier was a personal attack. It was not intended to be. I was merely mentioning a particular mindset as something to be aware of, when trying to put oneself in another person's shoes to consider if something could come off as creepy. Giving my own answer to the theme of the thread and all. I quoted your post because I find irritating the idea that if a girl politely refuses someone's advances, it is because she has issues (or is superficial). Walking away after a refusal is excellent, but in some cases applying some empathy beforehand might prevent the brush-off in the first place.

I don't think you are bad, let alone worse. Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't know you, I don't judge you. I just disagree a bit with an opinion you stated. I applaud your commitment to treat men and women as equals. I'm a big fan of that. Out of curiosity, if a guy turned down your offer to buy him a beer, would that also be due to personal issues?

I never said that all men should feel "gender guilt" because there are men out there who have committed crimes against women. However, these crimes do occur, and the attitudes I mentioned do exist. I reserve the right to treat men making sexual advances with an abundance of caution, and be treated with respect and dignity when I do. If a man who is hitting on me makes me feel unsafe or uncomfortable, I am not "doing men wrong" by ending that conversation.

I know yours wasn't a personal attack against me, I just put my hands foward because, from experience, in the Internet people get jumpy when you touch subjcets such as rape and how you react to a victim of said crime with anything other then compartment (discovered a new english word, yaay!). So since I voiced a divergent opinion I expected to be attacked, sorry for that, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Now we probably had a bit of a misunderstanding, because I wasn't imagining a girl politely refusing one's advances, I wasn't even imagining the hypotetical guy making obvious advances to said girl. I was imagining a normal friendly approach (contrary to popular belief one could want to speak with a girl for reasons other then gettin in her pants) met with coldness and suspicion.
If the girl is polite and doesn't make the guy feel like a criminal then there are no issues or problems for me and I guess for most other guys, you just say "goodbye, have a nice evening" and go on about your business. I'm not trying to say that a girl should never refuse a man, ever, I hope this is clear, I am however saying that when she does it shouldn't be because she's considering the idea that he might be a rapist.
Ok, there are some instances where she might want to consider that but I'm talking about an average guy acting normally, not stalking, insisting, touching and so on, ok?

So, again, if a man makes sexual advances to a woman he has never met he can be treated with suspicion without thinking twice(well, unless it was "that" kind of party, but again, we are talking about normal, average situations). My problem comes from girls that act cold and suspicious of guys that are just being friendly. You can turn away an advance with politeness and even with a smile, without making the guy feel like a criminal or a lesser being.

On to your question: if I was friendly to a guy and he acted cold, yes, I would think he has personal issues, I'm not one to invade someone's privacy to find out anyway so I'd just leave him alone. If I already know him it's a different story because then I might think that he has something against me in particular, but I understand we are talking about strangers, right?

The difference, if we want to be completeley transparent, is that if a guy is cold with another guy he doesn't make him feel like a criminal, usually, because men don't expect another man to rape them, or to be raped at all, I think. When a woman acts coldly and with suspicion you know that she's thinking that you might want to hurt her.

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 06:56 AM

That's.... strange. It might make sense for people who have these urges, can't control them and regret them, but if it is meant to apply to all men equally then I'd feel insulted.

That's just an attempt at humor (personally I find that it fails at that and was looking rather askance at my Facebook friends who ate it up like hotcakes and were promulgating it as such) that needles at the bit where we know our society has a problem but choose not to alter it to change said problem because it would be messy and difficult, so instead we promote women knowing how to take care of themselves and navigate the crapsack world as it stands, which translates into victim blaming through some arcane means that I don't entirely follow.

Ceric

2012-02-15, 06:58 AM

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 06:59 AM

Whether or not it's true, that's definitely how they teach it whenever they talk about sexual assault. I remember they cited statistics that something like every 1 in 4 women gets sexually assaulted in their lifetime, and made us look around the room and realize that the next victims could very well be us. Or something like that. Basically, they tell everyone not to sexually assault anyone*, but then they go on and say, if you assume every guy on the street wants to rape you (if you're a girl), here's what you need to do...

*http://i43.tinypic.com/292kwph.jpg

Just want to throw my two cents in here, that bit about "every 1 out of 4 women are going to be a victim of sexual assault" sounds kinda a bit BSey to me. I myself know exactly one woman who may or may not have been raped(my wife believes her step-dad raped her older sister, but doesn't know for sure). That certainly doesn't hold up the theory that "every 1 in 4 has been sexually assaulted", as I've met a considerable amount of women in my 30 years on this earth. Granted, I never made it a point to ask "Hey, have you ever been raped", but I was close enough to most of them that either they'd have mentioned it at one point or another, or I"d have heard it from one of their friends or family members.

I mean, I understand why the instructor WOULD say something like that, because it is a serious enough thing that a woman should be on guard against possible predators, but it definitely feels like an exaggeration to me. Assuming there is an equal amount of women as men on the planet, and a total population of 7billion, that would mean that 875million women have been raped as of this very moment. If that is true at all, it would only be because, in certain 3rd world countries, a very large % of the female population have been raped(and more then once), and that's unfairly inflating the #'s to make it look worse then it really is(you can't judge the population of the U.S.(or any other major, modern country) by what happens in another 3rd world country).

DeadManSleeping

2012-02-15, 07:04 AM

Ceric

2012-02-15, 07:09 AM

Just want to throw my two cents in here, that bit about "every 1 out of 4 women are going to be a victim of sexual assault" sounds kinda a bit BSey to me.

I'll admit that I'm going totally off memory here, but I know the rate was pretty high. Quick Google search turns up a Wikipedia page that says "1 of 6 U.S. women has experienced an attempted or completed rape. (according to Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault)". Data appears to be from 1998. Once you broaden "rape" to "sexual assault" and/or take into account that a lot of victims don't report their sexual assaults, I'm sure the number could easily be around 1 in 4.

(Interestingly, or perhaps not so much, "The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics".)

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 07:19 AM

StarwulfThe most unfortunate thing that I've observed is that the number most frequently gets voiced, at an organizational level, by groups that promote the idea that a couple negotiating or compromising in any way over sex means that it's rape

This is probably just a rather unfortunate bit of observational bias though.

More pertinently is that, IIRC, it's mostly counting date rape, which is a bit messy to quantify due to varying definitions of it.

Still, I believe it does actually go by the more conservative definitions in that last case so it's not counting things like knowledge that one's date wanted to sleep with one's self as coercion in and of itself.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 07:20 AM

Sexual assault history is one of those things that doesn't come up in conversation, like, EVER. While I also believe 1 in 4 is inflated, the number is probably higher than your impression is right now.

I mean, really, I knew this one girl for years before she was able to publicly discuss the fact that she was a gunpoint hostage for a few seconds this one time. Trauma's a funny thing like that.

Thing is, I live in one of those small communities(population of under 1700) where if a mouse farts, everybody in town knows about it 5 minutes later, so a Sexual Assault is something that would be known and talked about, no matter how much they try to keep it quiet.

To Ceric: I guess it depends if you define Sexual Assault as rape, or if you include random groping into it. If you consider it to be, then yeah, i can definitely see where they get the 1 in 4 stat, and honestly could see it being even higher, like 1 in 3. There are a lot of guys out there who would never rape a woman, but certainly wouldn't think twice about copping a feel if they could get away with it. If you hold the standard to strictly rape, I'd think the # falls to the mentioned 1 in 6 or even lower.

I will say, that last bit kind of surprises me, that the U.S. has the highest # of reported rapes then any other country that publishes those statistics. Kind of disappointing :-(. Probably moreso since, while the community I'm from is extremely gossipy, it's also, for the most part, one of those more old-fashioned places where a guy is expected to treat a woman like a lady, hold the door open for her at all time, stand up when a woman goes to seat herself, etc and so on. I can count the # of rapes I"ve read about in our local newspaper on one hand since I've been reading it(20 years).

SweetLikeLemons

2012-02-15, 07:38 AM

The difference, if we want to be completeley transparent, is that if a guy is cold with another guy he doesn't make him feel like a criminal, usually, because men don't expect another man to rape them, or to be raped at all, I think. When a woman acts coldly and with suspicion you know that she's thinking that you might want to hurt her.

Well, she could just not like you or have poor social skills or be having a bad day.:smalltongue:

That's just an attempt at humor (personally I find that it fails at that and was looking rather askance at my Facebook friends who ate it up like hotcakes and were promulgating it as such) that needles at the bit where we know our society has a problem but choose not to alter it to change said problem because it would be messy and difficult, so instead we promote women knowing how to take care of themselves and navigate the crapsack world as it stands, which translates into victim blaming through some arcane means that I don't entirely follow.

Well, victim blaming was a go-to strategy long before those lists were around. What links those lists with it, in my opinion, is if it is the responsibility of women to do all those things to avoid being assaulted, then it is easy to see not doing them as careless. Add that in with the cultural victim-blaming that already exists and there is a tendency for people to say things like "Well, she shouldn't have done X" or "Why didn't she do Y".

One of the (mandatory) sexual assault talks I went to pointed out that, while about 1 in 4 women get sexually assaulted, it's a much smaller proportion of men that actually commit sexual assaults. Around a single-digit percent, I think. So preventing repeat offenders would be much more useful than teaching women to think all men are rapists, but not a lot programs seem to have realized that :smallsigh:

I was going to answer about the list too but SweetLikeLemons described it perfectly :smallbiggrin: My roommate actually carries mace on her lanyard with her keys but she's never used it.

After someone tried to break into my apartment while I was there, I started carrying mace. Actually, it was a pocket size bear spray, since that was easier to buy. I had to get rid of it when I moved though. I never had cause to use it on man nor bear.

As to repeat offenders and the justice system, I have all kinds of rants on that, but maybe I've derailed this thread into rape-talk enough for tonight. :smalleek:

Um, creepy things. If no more strangers yell out of car windows or honk at me while I'm walking down the street ever again, that would be good. That is both creepy and infuriating. Also personal space is important. And putting the moves on someone wearing a wedding ring is just skeezy.

The Succubus

2012-02-15, 07:40 AM

Here's a little interesting food thought - creepiness is actually a gender neutral trait. While we have at great length gone on about behaviour of men being creepy, women are more than capable of behaving creepily towards men.

Usually this can take the form of the jilted ex or obsessed would-be gf. Is creepiness a trait more commonly found in men? Probably, as men tend to behave more aggressively and possessively than women. Is it the sole domain of men? Definitely not.

Themrys

2012-02-15, 07:41 AM

By simply not giving a **** and walking away, without shame or guilt because you did nothing wrong, instead of going all "what did I do to deserve this?" on yourself.
Simple as that.

I hope you really act like that and are not one of those creeps who greet women in dark alleys and,after not getting an answer, stay there and complain how impolite the woman is.

@starwulf: Who, do you think, would tell you about it, if the victim doesn't?
:smalleek:

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 07:55 AM

Well, victim blaming was a go-to strategy long before those lists were around.

Well, yes, court rooms being what they are and all.

What links those lists with it, in my opinion, is if it is the responsibility of women to do all those things to avoid being assaulted, then it is easy to see not doing them as careless. Add that in with the cultural victim-blaming that already exists and there is a tendency for people to say things like "Well, she shouldn't have done X" or "Why didn't she do Y".

The problem then becomes, alright, if preparing young women for the harsh realities of the world is automatically victim blaming no matter how it is couched, phrased, or handled, what are we to do other than go back to the bad old days of not actually warning girls about the dangers of life.

Considering that all of the lists I've ever encountered repeatedly stressed that people who blame the victim are idiots, and all.

Do I live in some kind of bizarro world? :smallconfused: Because apparently I also managed to get the textbooks that no schoolkids actually ever get that actually even mention historical events that people don't like to admit happened.

Um, creepy things. If no more strangers yell out of car windows or honk at me while I'm walking down the street ever again, that would be good. That is both creepy and infuriating. Also personal space is important. And putting the moves on someone wearing a wedding ring is just skeezy.

I've never understood myself why someone would ever want to catcall at an attractive woman, let alone a kid walking their dog. Now that I'm a hairy 20-something man, it is almost as consternating when it's happened to me, though I believe last night was only the second time since I'd started being in the city more often. :smallconfused:

GnomeFighter

2012-02-15, 07:56 AM

To me the problem here is two fold.

1) The US have a deep fear of, and deep problem with, with sexual crime - A prison system that sees rape as part of the punishment can't help. But nither can the "fear of men" some people clearly have. If every time you meet a man you think "he might be a rapist" you have a problem.

2) There is too much splitting of men and women. I found most people women find creepy men do too. They are the type that don't know how to intereact with anyone no matter what sex.

FYI, the level of rape in the US is 1 in 6 women. In the UK it is 1 in 25 of women and about 1 in 100 men. The male stats are all messed up in the US because the law is very poor at protecting men, and the stigma against men who are raped is huge. Prison rape also is not seen as a crime and dwarfs any rape outside.

Also, approximatly 70% of rapes are commited by someone knowen to the victim, so strange men are not the risk.

Juggling Goth

2012-02-15, 08:02 AM

I myself know exactly one woman who may or may not have been raped(my wife believes her step-dad raped her older sister, but doesn't know for sure). That certainly doesn't hold up the theory that "every 1 in 4 has been sexually assaulted", as I've met a considerable amount of women in my 30 years on this earth. Granted, I never made it a point to ask "Hey, have you ever been raped", but I was close enough to most of them that either they'd have mentioned it at one point or another, or I"d have heard it from one of their friends or family members.

You really can't know that. People don't necessarily tell anyone. Maybe trauma, maybe their own right to determine who knows and what people associate with them.

I really don't know, and I'm a man, so I never had to care about such things, but is it really that dangerous? Rape is a terrible, terrible crime, as is violence in general, but that makes it sound like there's a world of pain just waiting for women to let their guard down.

It's more that if the worst does happen, welcome to a world of victim-blaming and accusations of asking for it. Why leave yourself open to that? It's a no-win situation, really: if I shoot a guy down immediately, I'm a bitch/flattering myself, but if I don't, I'm leading him on.

GnomeFighter

2012-02-15, 08:14 AM

It's more that if the worst does happen, welcome to a world of victim-blaming and accusations of asking for it. Why leave yourself open to that? It's a no-win situation, really: if I shoot a guy down immediately, I'm a bitch/flattering myself, but if I don't, I'm leading him on.

Dispite what people seem to think the "victim-blaming" is not unique to rape. I was mugged about ten years ago. It was suggested my many people that I should not have been in that area at that time of day on my own and drunk...

Asta Kask

2012-02-15, 08:14 AM

It's more that if the worst does happen, welcome to a world of victim-blaming and accusations of asking for it. Why leave yourself open to that? It's a no-win situation, really: if I shoot a guy down immediately, I'm a bitch/flattering myself, but if I don't, I'm leading him on.

Yeah. Also, if the consequences of not being on your watch are very dire, it makes sense to be on your watch all the time - even if the threat is rare. Because you only have to fail once...

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 08:22 AM

Dispite what people seem to think the "victim-blaming" is not unique to rape. I was mugged about ten years ago. It was suggested my many people that I should not have been in that area at that time of day on my own and drunk...

Well, considering that some places make laws against being drunk, alone, and not in one's home and what I've always found to be a fairly sizeable portion of people who actively look down on people who drink to get drunk while alone, there's at least a fair number of people who'll agree to that last bit as a general life principle. Irrespective of the actual location and mugging outside of a few select locales.

Helanna

2012-02-15, 08:36 AM

I have a Y chromosome, but here's my 2sp:

Hitting on people in places they can't quickly leave from (e.g. elevators, long queues)

This was a while ago, but can I derail back to the original topic for a moment and say yesyesyesyesyes to this? And then extend it to include hitting on people while they're at work? I work behind the customer service counter and I can't even tell you how many times I've been hit on, and it's creepy. I can't move away, I can't even be rude to the customer no matter how creepy they are, and frankly I just don't like being hit on by random strangers while I'm just trying to do my job.

Please, don't hit on your cashiers or salespeople. It's creepy.

Kalmageddon

2012-02-15, 08:48 AM

I hope you really act like that and are not one of those creeps who greet women in dark alleys and,after not getting an answer, stay there and complain how impolite the woman is.

See, now this is offensive.
Why would you doubt me?

Well, she could just not like you

Preposterous! :smalltongue:

Gravitron5000

2012-02-15, 08:51 AM

They do all have secret meetings though.

The meetings are not that secret. What do you think they are doing in the bathroom together? :smalltongue:

GnomeFighter

2012-02-15, 09:11 AM

Well, considering that some places make laws against being drunk, alone, and not in one's home and what I've always found to be a fairly sizeable portion of people who actively look down on people who drink to get drunk while alone, there's at least a fair number of people who'll agree to that last bit as a general life principle. Irrespective of the actual location and mugging outside of a few select locales.

Yep, blaiming the victim. I was not paralitic, just had a few drinks with friends after work and was walking home. Yet you assume with no evidence that I was drinking on my own, completely wasted, and that it was my fault. As far as I am aware there are no laws in the US or UK against being a little drunk. Falling over, sluring incoherently drunk, yes, but not "few bottles of beer after work" drunk.

So you also think that a woman, or man, who is raped on a night out, or on their own at night, is at fault? That is exactly my point. People blaim the victim. Yes you should protect yourself to some extent (Don't carry large amounts of cash, lock your doors etc.) but the idea that victims are at fault is deep within our socioty. Lots of people basicly saying "well it wouldn't happen to me because"

Bouregard

2012-02-15, 09:19 AM

About hiting on women being alone:

That's something I as a male always found interesting. By that logic women feel highly uncomfortable in a situation where it his highly comfortable for the man to start a conversation / hit on her.

I mean think about a local club, girls are seldom found alone and more often with their friends. If I would now "hit on her" I would submit myself to the judgement and the giggling of the group and the possibility to be denied (and in my alcohol-riddled mind wrongfully made fun of).

Now if I try to speak with her when she's separated from the "herd" I can freely ask her without facing the dreaded friends and even if she starts looking for the mace I can back off quietly without more then two people knowing.

Of course starting a conversation in a dark alley is always a good way to get maced.

Asta Kask

2012-02-15, 09:45 AM

Yeah, google 'elevatorgate' for some information about creepiness and the hubbub that can result. The elevator that launched a thousand flamewars.

Tyndmyr

2012-02-15, 09:48 AM

Someone in another thread mentioned that he was reluctant to be too forward with a girl because he didn't want to be seen as a creep. I was just wondering where girls draw the line. Girls, what does it take for a guy to be considered a creep, and how forward is too forward?

Creepy is about invading the personal boundaries of others. Most people assume things like say, a personal space bubble, and people who disregard such things make others uncomfortable.

I mean, sometimes it gets more overt, like stalking and what not...I remember when my buddy had his stalker send him two little lego people, looking like the two of them. Handcuffed together.

THAC0

2012-02-15, 09:59 AM

Boundaries also change based on the situation and location.

Say I'm loading groceries into my car around twilight. I am going to have a much different boundary if I'm doing this at the grocery store on the military base than if I'm doing it at the walmart down the street with a crime rate comparable to inner city detriot.

Asta Kask

2012-02-15, 10:05 AM

GnomeFighter

2012-02-15, 10:19 AM

Who said that victim-baming was immune to rape?

It is widespread in rape.

I think you missunderstood what I said. I am saying it is widespread in all violent crime, not just rape. People were talking about the "blaim the victim" mentality with regards to rape and I think that just focusing on one crime fails to address the problem.

Weezer

2012-02-15, 10:19 AM

You really can't know that. People don't necessarily tell anyone. Maybe trauma, maybe their own right to determine who knows and what people associate with them.

This is very important to remember. One of my ex-girlfriends, who I had been close friends with for over 3 years before dating, didn't tell me she'd been raped by one of her boyfriends until after we'd been dating for about 3 months. People just don't talk about past sexual assaults and rapes. It's one of those things where it's safe to assume you can never know whether or not it's happened to someone, so always tread carefully around the subject.

Diva De

2012-02-15, 10:37 AM

Having not read the thread, I'm just responding to the title.

My 8-year-old and husband have been watching Naruto lately. At dinner one night, my son starts talking about Jeriah, the Toad Sage - otherwise known as the Pervy Sage. The conversation goes like this.

Son: What does "pervy" mean?
Me: Oh no - ask your dad. It's his series.
Son: What does "Pervy" mean?
Hubby: Lecherous.
Son: What's that?
Hubby: Ask your mom. She likes big words.
Me: OH NO YOU DON'T.
Hubby: *sigh* Well, you know how he likes to write those romance books?
Son: Yeah...
Hubby: You know how he does "research" for them?
Son: Yeah! By looking at girls in their bikinis!
Hubby: Yes. And you know how he does it, like spying from bushes and stuff?
Son: Yeah...
Hubby: That's pervy.
Son: OIC

Asta Kask

2012-02-15, 10:51 AM

I think you missunderstood what I said. I am saying it is widespread in all violent crime, not just rape. People were talking about the "blaim the victim" mentality with regards to rape and I think that just focusing on one crime fails to address the problem.

Surely it must be okay to narrow the focus when we're talking specifically about romantic and sexual relations? I don't see how that is denying anything. If I say that humans have livers I'm not denying that other animals do too.

Trog

2012-02-15, 10:59 AM

A creep is an undesirable guy (I suppose one could argue that this applies to women as well, in cases, but let's stick with the guy part for now). What the undesirability stems from is partially subjective and thus can vary somewhat from woman to woman.

There are certain things that a man can do, however, that will make them more likely to be judged as creepy (even by their fellow man). Obsessive behavior, coming on way too strong, and generally acting in a manner which feels like a threat (including ulterior motives) to the woman in question all are creepy. These sorts of things, obviously, are good to avoid and should a man not do so they should not be surprised if they are called a creep for their actions. And rightly so.

But then we have the other part of the equation. The part where the man doesn't do any of the above things but gets labeled "creepy" by the girl rejecting his advances. A woman blaming a normal, well-mannered guy with decent intentions for being creepy when, instead, she is simply just not attracted to him bugs me on behalf of the maligned guy in question.

I understand that, at a certain level of attractiveness / with the backing of certain life experiences that, for a woman, there is the need for a stern facade to keep men they are not interested in at a distance. But I don't like it when a Good Guy Greg gets caught in the crossfire of that.

Of course a real Good Guy Greg probably would forgive her for it without too much fuss. :smallamused:

Themrys

2012-02-15, 11:36 AM

See, now this is offensive.
Why would you doubt me?

Because I met a guy on an other forum who also was of the opinion that it was "unfair" and "insulting" that women sometimes feel threatened.

That (talking to a woman who was alone, at night, on the road, then getting angry when she didn't answer) is what he did. And then he even complained on a forum.

But yeah...it is oh so unfair that women don't trust every man first. They can start distrusting someone after he has raped them, right? That's early enough, is it?

You can believe in your god-given right to be treated like a nice guy by women who barely know you, but it won't get you very far. You just risk being considered a creep.

Kalmageddon

2012-02-15, 11:49 AM

You can believe in your god-given right to be treated like a nice guy by women who barely know you, but it won't get you very far. You just risk being considered a creep.
I'll take my chances, so far I seem to be doing ok and I hardly spend time single, but thank you for your kind concern about my private life, you are a real sweetie, I can tell. :smallwink:

THAC0

2012-02-15, 11:55 AM

If every time you meet a man you think "he might be a rapist" you have a problem.

Disagree. Hear me out.

If I do not think that any man might be a rapist or that a random woman walking down the street might be casing my house, then the result is that I do not pay close enough attention to notice cues that the man might be a rapist or the woman might be a mugger, which means that my ability to defend myself is severely reduced.

On the other hand, if I look at people as if they might be rapist or muggers or whatever, I am paying close attention to cues both positive and negative. It's called situational awareness and I do this CONSTANTLY. And I can pretty much guarantee that most "good people" do not notice this about me, because I have already evaluated them off of their positive cues.

It's not that I look at a man and freak out and think "OMG IM GOING TO BE RAPED" but that I look at the potentials for each situation.

Example: as I drive down the road, I am watching the people on the side of the road. I do this because they might do something stupid like jump out in front of me. Now, most of them aren't going to do that. But if I just assume that most people aren't and I shouldn't worry about it, then when someone does (and yes, this did happen to me), I would have run them over. As it happened, I was able to identify odd behavior in this person and was therefore prepared to stop and/or swerve as needed when they jumped into the road.

My two cents anyway.

Dvil

2012-02-15, 12:12 PM

Because I met a guy on an other forum who also was of the opinion that it was "unfair" and "insulting" that women sometimes feel threatened.

That (talking to a woman who was alone, at night, on the road, then getting angry when she didn't answer) is what he did. And then he even complained on a forum.

But yeah...it is oh so unfair that women don't trust every man first. They can start distrusting someone after he has raped them, right? That's early enough, is it?

You can believe in your god-given right to be treated like a nice guy by women who barely know you, but it won't get you very far. You just risk being considered a creep.

Just because one guy on another forum was a bit creepy and didn't quite 'get' it doesn't give you the right to start throwing around accusations and being aggressive to the guys here. The way you're talking it's as though 99% of all blokes are rapists, and anyone who expects to be given the benefit of the doubt is clearly a narcissistic airhead with unreasonable expectations of how people should treat others.

Maybe you didn't mean to come across that way, maybe I'm just reading you wrong, but that's how it seems to me.

Karoht

2012-02-15, 12:44 PM

I have a track record of driving to places to pick up ladies who call me because they are afraid to leave on their own at night. As such, I have some tips for people to avoid being (mis)labelled the creepy guy.

1-Body Language. I can't stress enough that human beings are poor communicators at the best of times. A girl isn't going to say "I think you're a stalker" to your face. However, if her body language goes from open and relaxed to closed and tense while talking with you, it's probably time to back off. If she and her friends change seats or grab seats at the bar so that their backs are to you, odds are they aren't comfortable with you making eye contact.

2-If there is a boundary, and you cross it, you're in the creepy zone. It doesn't matter if you know there is a boundary or not. The good news is, there are alarms that go off if you cross the boundary. Facial expression is usually the biggest one to watch.

3-If you think you've come across as creepy, the worst thing you can do is try to justify it, or apologize. Your best bet is to leave, or ignore the person. Do not go to the bathroom for long periods of time if you think you've just creeped a girl out.

4-Don't try to separate a girl from her friends if she is with friends. This is quite possibly the worst thing you could possibly do. Don't disclude the friends from conversation either. She's not there to have a private conversation with you, she's there to have fun with her friends.

5-Ladies who have had a few are in fact more likely to view someone as creepy. Depending on how alcohol affects them, some start to see anyone that is unfamiliar as a potential threat, while others are affected by alcohol differently and see everyone as a potential friend. My advice, stay away from having alcohol in the equasion unless you are willing to accept the responsibilities and potential consequences.

6-Verbal Cues. Tone of voice change. Only answering direct questions, isn't stating an opinion or avoiding stating an opinion? Avoiding questions? Yeah, back off.

Now, I'm just going by what my ladyfriends have told me. It is entirely likely that they have misjudged others as creepy. I pick them up because I fear that they might be right. These are things that they have especially mentioned, take them under consideration.

Themrys

2012-02-15, 12:47 PM

The way you're talking it's as though 99% of all blokes are rapists, and anyone who expects to be given the benefit of the doubt is clearly a narcissistic airhead with unreasonable expectations of how people should treat others.

Maybe you didn't mean to come across that way, maybe I'm just reading you wrong, but that's how it seems to me.

Please, do read what I write. I never claimed 99% of all blokes were rapists.

I told you that women have good reason (and even just 1% rapists or less would be enough reason) to not trust any man they just met. If you do not want that advice, okay. Be a creep. But stop complaining.

GolemsVoice

2012-02-15, 01:00 PM

You can believe in your god-given right to be treated like a nice guy by women who barely know you, but it won't get you very far. You just risk being considered a creep.

I think I can believe in my right to be treated neutraly, if the situation we met was neutral. Just as I don't assume every woman I date is just after my monies, becaus that's what women do.

But I agree, talking to somebody that you don't know in a situation where such things aren't considered usual is strange. But that would apply to men to, I'd also feel strange if some unknown person greeted my on the street.

And that brings me to my next point. As somebody already said, creepiness isn't reserved for males, or for man/woman situations. In general I'd define creepiness as willingly and knowingly disrespecting personal boundaries, repeatedly.

Dvil

2012-02-15, 01:34 PM

Please, do read what I write. I never claimed 99% of all blokes were rapists.

I told you that women have good reason (and even just 1% rapists or less would be enough reason) to not trust any man they just met. If you do not want that advice, okay. Be a creep. But stop complaining.

Again with the accusations. I'm a creep because I don't like you saying I'm probably a rapist before you've even spoken to me once? That doesn't seem very fair. And the reason I've bolded the text above is mainly for the irony. I never said you claimed that. I said that it comes across that way in how you talk.

For the record, I have no problem with people being cautious around people they don't know, as long as they're reasonable about it. I think the way THAC0 described it a few posts ago is bang on the money. That sort of approach is exactly what's needed. Making observations and judgements about everyone, from a neutral standpoint, for the purposes of better reacting to whatever situations may come up. The kind of guilty-until-proven-innocent witchhunt that you seem to be advocating just rankles with me, because I think everyone deserves to be judged based upon their actions and words rather than what they keep in their underwear.

Again, I apologise if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here.

Grinner

2012-02-15, 02:04 PM

This was a while ago, but can I derail back to the original topic for a moment and say yesyesyesyesyes to this? And then extend it to include hitting on people while they're at work? I work behind the customer service counter and I can't even tell you how many times I've been hit on, and it's creepy. I can't move away, I can't even be rude to the customer no matter how creepy they are, and frankly I just don't like being hit on by random strangers while I'm just trying to do my job.

Please, don't hit on your cashiers or salespeople. It's creepy.

It's fine if you don't like being hit on at work, but it's odd that you feel the need to be an ass about it, particularly when a simple, polite "No" will suffice. This only reinforces the idea that a person cannot make advances without being labelled a pervert.

Themrys

2012-02-15, 02:23 PM

I think I can believe in my right to be treated neutraly, if the situation we met was neutral. Just as I don't assume every woman I date is just after my monies, becaus that's what women do.

But I agree, talking to somebody that you don't know in a situation where such things aren't considered usual is strange. But that would apply to men to, I'd also feel strange if some unknown person greeted my on the street.

And that brings me to my next point. As somebody already said, creepiness isn't reserved for males, or for man/woman situations. In general I'd define creepiness as willingly and knowingly disrespecting personal boundaries, repeatedly.

Well, I do agree that men can find someone creepy, too.

However, the problem with your "neutral situation" is: Who is to define whether the situation is neutral?

I admit that I am sometimes surprised what other women consider inappropriate - for example, apparently, men are in general not allowed to show interest in women who are much younger than they, even if the woman is over twenty - and as someone who doesn't recognize unwritten rules, I can empathize with the men.
However, being a woman myself, I can somewhat understand why some women react this way. And I just don't get it why men must complain and complain over and over, instead of just accepting as a sad fact that there is good reason why women might consider their behaviour creepy although they themselves wouldn't consider that same behaviour by a woman creepy.

That was a long and complicated sentence, but I guess, since you're German, too, you'll understand it.

Juggling Goth

2012-02-15, 02:25 PM

It's fine if you don't like being hit on at work, but it's odd that you feel the need to be an ass about it, particularly when a simple, polite "No" will suffice. This only reinforces the idea that a person cannot make advances without being labelled a pervert.

Okay. It's a situation where there is a power differential ("the customer is always right"), and the person being hit upon is not free to behave naturally. It's a situation in which the person being hit upon has given an inch - the politeness required by all customer service personnel - and the person doing the hitting has taken a mile ("ooh, I'm in with a chance there!"). It is behaving in a way which is not respecting the feelings or professional boundaries of the person being hit upon. Hitting on someone at work in a customer service environment is inherently creepy for these reasons.

Asta Kask

2012-02-15, 02:30 PM

It's like the catcalls. Most men think it would be charming to have a woman comment favorably on their looks. What they don't think about is that it looses its charm when it happens 20 times per day. And it's not always prime specimens of manhood that do the commenting.

Helanna

2012-02-15, 02:34 PM

It's fine if you don't like being hit on at work, but it's odd that you feel the need to be an ass about it, particularly when a simple, polite "No" will suffice. This only reinforces the idea that a person cannot make advances without being labelled a pervert.

Well it's not like my automatic response is to just be an ass whenever anyone shows interest in me. I'm only rude if they're being incredibly persistent or heavy-handed about it, which doesn't happen often. It's just that it's one more option that's closed off to me, especially as I can't say or do anything that can be perceived as rude, lest the customer complain to my manager. I mean, I'm positive that most people aren't going to report me for rudeness just because I rejected them, but then again, people complain about stupid things for stupid reasons all the time.

Edit: Also what Juggling Goth and Asta Kask said. Basically, it's really, really easy to cross the line in that situation without even noticing it.

GolemsVoice

2012-02-15, 02:39 PM

That was a long and complicated sentence, but I guess, since you're German, too, you'll understand it.

Ha, thanks :-) Well enough.

With neutral situation, I meant any situation where striking up a conversation or greeting each other might be considered normal, but probably not mandatory. A club, the office, in school, in university, places where people gather and meet.

And I just don't get it why men must complain and complain over and over, instead of just accepting as a sad fact that there is good reason why women might consider their behaviour creepy although they themselves wouldn't consider that same behaviour by a woman creepy.

Nobody likes being forced into roles. Because it makes me, at least, feel like I broke some unwritten rule by doing something I considered normal or even polite. I'm carrying the baggage of my sex for things I'll never even dream of committing.

Asta Kask

2012-02-15, 02:41 PM

Okay. It's a situation where there is a power differential ("the customer is always right"), and the person being hit upon is not free to behave naturally. It's a situation in which the person being hit upon has given an inch - the politeness required by all customer service personnel - and the person doing the hitting has taken a mile ("ooh, I'm in with a chance there!"). It is behaving in a way which is not respecting the feelings or professional boundaries of the person being hit upon. Hitting on someone at work in a customer service environment is inherently creepy for these reasons.

Given that it would be twice as creepy to wait for them to go home, or wait for them in the morning, what should I do if I'm interested in someone working at the local convenience store? Try to find out where they go to relax? 'cause that's not creepy...

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 02:42 PM

I'm pretty sure that just devolves into the more basic reasons of not taking no and not taking a hint.

Unless you mean very specifically the customer service desk such as found in a grocery or department store or are very specifically excluding low level flirting and instead focused on high-pressure come-ons or something equally inappropriate to say in the first place regardless of context. :smallconfused:
Yep, blaiming the victim. I was not paralitic, just had a few drinks with friends after work and was walking home. Yet you assume with no evidence that I was drinking on my own, completely wasted, and that it was my fault. As far as I am aware there are no laws in the US or UK against being a little drunk. Falling over, sluring incoherently drunk, yes, but not "few bottles of beer after work" drunk.

So you also think that a woman, or man, who is raped on a night out, or on their own at night, is at fault?

Reading a bit too much into it, there, mate. :smallwink:

Viera Champion

2012-02-15, 02:43 PM

As my friends have claimed, nothing done by me is creepy when I do it, but most of it would be if someone else did.

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 02:49 PM

As my friends have claimed, nothing done by me is creepy when I do it, but most of it would be if someone else did.

Yes, a fair amount of it, in addition to individual sensibilities of observers, has to do with the attractiveness, age, and charm of the person in question.

Grinner

2012-02-15, 02:51 PM

Given that it would be twice as creepy to wait for them to go home, or wait for them in the morning, what should I do if I'm interested in someone working at the local convenience store? Try to find out where they go to relax? 'cause that's not creepy...

That was kind of my follow-up point. Generally, you'll only meet a stranger once. If you feel an attraction to her, then you might as well give it a shot, regardless of the circumstances. Otherwise, trying to meet her again will probably involve stalking.

Edit: In summary, you'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Asta Kask

2012-02-15, 03:01 PM

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 03:02 PM

Karoht

2012-02-15, 03:10 PM

I think it can be ok provided you convey that you give up the power differential. Language, tone of voice, body posture... all these can signal that "I do not wish to be seen as of higher status than you". Can be difficult to pull off, of course (I certainly don't know off-hand how to do it).
Imagine the girls who work in those Maid cafe's in Japan.

Mind you, if I went to one, I would refuse to be refered to as "Master" as is the custom. I would give up the power differential off the hop.
But then, I wouldn't really flirt with or hit on any of those girls, mostly out of shame knowing that they put up with that all day from all kinds of weirdos.

Grinner

2012-02-15, 03:21 PM

Imagine the girls who work in those Maid cafe's in Japan.

Mind you, if I went to one, I would refuse to be refered to as "Master" as is the custom. I would give up the power differential off the hop.
But then, I wouldn't really flirt with or hit on any of those girls, mostly out of shame knowing that they put up with that all day from all kinds of weirdos.

Umm....I think we've been operating on the assumption that the environment is like a customer service desk...

That's something else entirely....

Karoht

2012-02-15, 03:25 PM

Umm....I think we've been operating on the assumption that the environment is like a customer service desk...

That's something else entirely....
I know. Merely presenting the example is all. Kind of the extreme end of the spectrum though.

THAC0

2012-02-15, 03:34 PM

Generally one's subconscious threat evaluation protocols should be doing that job for one's self without having to actively worry and stress out about it in every situation and case. Rather superfluous use of brain power to actively evaluate everyone present to see if someone is going to mug you at the policeman's ball, after all. In light of that it mostly just sounds like you're advocating hyper-vigilance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervigilance).

Hardly.

Awareness is not something one really notices or develops until one, well, becomes aware of it. Look around you next time you're at the mall - how many of those people could you walk around directly behind for a significant period of time before they notice? You might be surprised. I am not in any way advocating hypervigilance, but relying on one's self-conscious to identify threats is not a good idea. Most people won't notice anything until the threat becomes obvious - by then it is too late. You are already in a Situation. The point of what I advocate is largely to diffuse situations before they become situations in the first place. Situational awareness not in any way, shape or form paranoia.

A lot of it is also developing patterns of reaction: if this happens, I do that. One thing that stuck with me from a self-defense teacher was a story he told about women who walk up to their car at night, see someone inside it, but don't have a reaction in their brain for that situation, so the brain defaults into "open car door and get inside" because that is the programmed reaction for "walk up to car."

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 04:04 PM

I hope you really act like that and are not one of those creeps who greet women in dark alleys and,after not getting an answer, stay there and complain how impolite the woman is.

@starwulf: Who, do you think, would tell you about it, if the victim doesn't?
:smalleek:

You really can't know that. People don't necessarily tell anyone. Maybe trauma, maybe their own right to determine who knows and what people associate with them.

You guys obviously missed my 2nd post, which would totally explain what I meant. When I say I live in a Gossipy community, I mean, even the cops who would respond to a Sexual Assault call, would gossip about it. If she didn't report it, the guy who did it, would eventually say something about it to one of his friends, who would say something to one of his friends, and it would become a rumour. That is NOT an exaggeration, at all. So, if any of the women I knew had been sexually assaulted, there is a very high chance I'd know about it.

Helanna

2012-02-15, 04:28 PM

Given that it would be twice as creepy to wait for them to go home, or wait for them in the morning, what should I do if I'm interested in someone working at the local convenience store? Try to find out where they go to relax? 'cause that's not creepy...

Maybe just talk to them? As long as it's not busy, I don't mind talking to customers. I mind when they spend their entire transaction hitting on me despite the fact that I'm not responding to them at all.

Although let me ask a question. If you are interested in someone after meeting them once for a brief transaction, are you looking more for personality or for looks? That's another of my problems with it - there's no possible way for a guy to glean my personality well enough to be interested in it after two seconds of interaction, so . . .

I'm pretty sure that just devolves into the more basic reasons of not taking no and not taking a hint.

Unless you mean very specifically the customer service desk such as found in a grocery or department store or are very specifically excluding low level flirting and instead focused on high-pressure come-ons or something equally inappropriate to say in the first place regardless of context. :smallconfused:

I'm not sure if this was really addressed to me, but it's more the fact that I'm incapable of moving away if I get uncomfortable. It implicitly puts the guy (or girl, if the guy is the employee) in a position of power since I'm not free to move or react like I might normally, in addition to the normal employee/customer power imbalance.

Although don't get me wrong, a lot of people apparently have no idea of what's appropriate to discuss with your cashier. While cashing out an older guy the other day, he asked where my nametag was. I told him it was just covered by my hair and pushed my hair aside to show him. His response: "Oh, it's hiding off to the side. And I can see why!" After I gave him a look he continued: "Well, you're really well-endowed! You should be happy about it! You know, a lot of girls aren't so well-endowed, and they wish they were. So congratulations!"

So helpful hint: It's always creepy to randomly compliment your cashier on her cup size. Don't do that.

DeadManSleeping

2012-02-15, 04:48 PM

So helpful hint: It's always creepy to randomly compliment your cashier on her cup size. Don't do that.

That explains why the girl at the movie theater concession stand gave me that weird look when I remarked on the jumbo sized soft drink, I suppose :smalltongue:

Juggling Goth

2012-02-15, 04:58 PM

Although let me ask a question. If you are interested in someone after meeting them once for a brief transaction, are you looking more for personality or for looks? That's another of my problems with it - there's no possible way for a guy to glean my personality well enough to be interested in it after two seconds of interaction, so . . .

This is a thing, yeah. It's going to sound really harsh but, if you haven't really had a conversation with someone, you can probably live without them. You haven't formed a deep bond, and it is not imperative that you start. It's highly unlikely that it's love at first sight. And I'm perfectly okay with no-strings-attached sex - I don't demand that every interaction between consenting adults is a meeting of the minds and souls and whatnot - but someone's workplace is NOT an appropriate place to be looking for that.

I'm not sure if this was really addressed to me, but it's more the fact that I'm incapable of moving away if I get uncomfortable. It implicitly puts the guy (or girl, if the guy is the employee) in a position of power since I'm not free to move or react like I might normally, in addition to the normal employee/customer power imbalance.

Yeah, I was gonna edit my post to include this, but then there was cache-glitchiness and I couldn't find the damn thing. Many bosses do not like it when their customer service people up and walk away. It is often not an option. So the bar for harrassment is set a lot lower, in a situation where it's not really possible to just walk off.

kyoryu

2012-02-15, 05:40 PM

One of the (mandatory) sexual assault talks I went to pointed out that, while about 1 in 4 women get sexually assaulted, it's a much smaller proportion of men that actually commit sexual assaults. Around a single-digit percent, I think. So preventing repeat offenders would be much more useful than teaching women to think all men are rapists, but not a lot programs seem to have realized that :smallsigh:

I was going to answer about the list too but SweetLikeLemons described it perfectly :smallbiggrin: My roommate actually carries mace on her lanyard with her keys but she's never used it.

I actually think women should think of men as potential rapists. Call me weird.

That doesn't mean hostility towards every man you meet. It does mean taking basic precautions. Just meet a guy and he wants to go for a walk alone with you? Probably a bad idea. If he's part of your social circle, less bad. Even then, date rape is a very real thing.

Understand the risks, re-evaluate the risks as a relationship develops. Look for cues of not accepting "no" for an answer on small things, or having to always have his way.

These are all pretty simple ideas. And none of them require being rude to a man that says hi to you in a public place. Now, a man approaching you in a secluded area when you're by yourself? Yeah, that's reason to be a little more afraid.

Knaight

2012-02-15, 05:40 PM

Nobody likes being forced into roles. Because it makes me, at least, feel like I broke some unwritten rule by doing something I considered normal or even polite. I'm carrying the baggage of my sex for things I'll never even dream of committing.

You're carrying the baggage of your species. There are people who do horrible things, and they don't all have some glowing sign over their head saying "bad person", meaning that anyone could potentially be among that group. As such, caution is entirely reasonable, particularly once warning signs (behaviors common among a group) start showing up. If I'm walking home alone at night - which I do with some frequency - I keep track of where everyone around me is, and if they get too close I keep much closer track. If they display aggressive behavior at all, particularly in a group, I consider it a warning sign and make sure not to end up near them. It's only rational.

Now, for most everyone else, I am a stranger. As such, when I am walking home at night and they are out doing whatever, it is entirely reasonable for me to be on their radar. Given that I'm fairly tall and that height would be an advantage for someone likely to participate in violent crime, paying slightly more attention to me is also entirely reasonable. Sure, in actuality I'm harmless and practically a pacifist, but they don't know that, and are acting on the information they have. It's reasonable, even if it isn't "fair". I can't fault someone for acting in an "unfair" manner when it is totally rational given the system they are in - it merely means that the system is screwing us both over, though in this example it certainly disadvantages me less.

Ceric

2012-02-15, 05:41 PM

Thread explosion :smalleek: And don't compare it to the pony thread. At least I expect it of the pony thread.

You guys obviously missed my 2nd post, which would totally explain what I meant. When I say I live in a Gossipy community, I mean, even the cops who would respond to a Sexual Assault call, would gossip about it. If she didn't report it, the guy who did it, would eventually say something about it to one of his friends, who would say something to one of his friends, and it would become a rumour. That is NOT an exaggeration, at all. So, if any of the women I knew had been sexually assaulted, there is a very high chance I'd know about it.

I don't know about the second part of your statement (although it seems unlikely to me, that a guy would talk about committing a felony and his friend would too?...), but for the cops part...

First of all, a lot of sexual assaults aren't reported to the cops. Yeah you'd report someone jumping out of a bush at night, but those aren't the majority of the attacks. It's much harder to call the police on someone you've known for years and apologized profusely once he was sober. A lot of people don't think date rape is rape. Even if they do, it's hard to report a rape if the guy knows where you live and threatens you against it.
Also, there are some sort of medical rape tests that happen as part of police investigation and I've heard they're nearly as violating as the rape itself. A lot of women won't report an attack or won't follow through on an investigation because they don't want to take the tests.

Second, it's not that easy to get "fair" justice for sexual assaults, because a lot of the cases turn into he-said-she-said. And then there's some horrible examples, like the story behind Denim Day:

In 1992, an 18-year-old woman in Italy was picked up by her driving instructor and taken to a secluded area, where she was removed from the vehicle and violently raped.
Though her instructor threatened to kill her, she reported the rape. The instructor was prosecuted, found guilty and incarcerated.
According to the Columbia European Journal of Law, the defendant appealed the sentence in 1999 and by ruling of an Italian Supreme Court decision, the rape conviction was overturned “because the victim wore very, very tight jeans, she had to help him remove them, and by removing the jeans it was no longer rape but consensual sex.”

Source (http://www.statepress.com/2011/04/07/sexual-assault-prevention-advocates-wear-jeans-promote-awareness/)(That link also has a story of a rape victim who called the police but they didn't continue the investigation.)

And third, aren't there privacy laws against that sort of gossip? :eek:

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 05:45 PM

Maybe just talk to them? As long as it's not busy, I don't mind talking to customers. I mind when they spend their entire transaction hitting on me despite the fact that I'm not responding to them at all.

Although let me ask a question. If you are interested in someone after meeting them once for a brief transaction, are you looking more for personality or for looks? That's another of my problems with it - there's no possible way for a guy to glean my personality well enough to be interested in it after two seconds of interaction, so . . .

There's a fair bit that can be gleaned as far as general typing from the choices we make about our physical appearance, though, generally, it's more because attractive people are the people we notice more and so we of course will be more naturally interested in approaching and learning more about them.

Although don't get me wrong, a lot of people apparently have no idea of what's appropriate to discuss with your cashier. While cashing out an older guy the other day, he asked where my nametag was. I told him it was just covered by my hair and pushed my hair aside to show him. His response: "Oh, it's hiding off to the side. And I can see why!" After I gave him a look he continued: "Well, you're really well-endowed! You should be happy about it! You know, a lot of girls aren't so well-endowed, and they wish they were. So congratulations!"

Old men pretty much exist to be inappropriate and receive less social sanction for it. It is a mystery, I'll admit. :smallconfused: The things grandpas can get away with teaching their grandsons which would have me exiled from society if I taught a younger brother or cousin, well, it just baffles me. :smalleek:

So helpful hint: It's always creepy to randomly compliment your cashier on her cup size. Don't do that.

True, but the reason why that is so that goes to a much more basic place than just that specific expression of creepiness. It's inappropriate to comment on the breasts of a woman to her face except in a very limited set of circumstances.

kyoryu

2012-02-15, 05:52 PM

This is a thing, yeah. It's going to sound really harsh but, if you haven't really had a conversation with someone, you can probably live without them. You haven't formed a deep bond, and it is not imperative that you start. It's highly unlikely that it's love at first sight.

This goes back to my earlier point about "assuming a level of relationship that isn't there." There's no such thing as unrequited love. There's only obsession and stalking.

Love is what happens *between* people. If there is no reciprocal relationship, it ain't love. And it is likely to be some form of objectification.

Andre

2012-02-15, 05:57 PM

Wait, really? I thought you were supposed to wear a ponytail or a braid in a fight. Pulling a ponytail hurts a lot less than grabbing and pulling a random handful of long hair... I suppose the solution is nothing longer than a buzzcut :smalltongue:

Don't do that, they'll be able to grab you by the ears! :smalltongue:

I imagine there is no ultimate answer for this question, since each person has its own comfort zone. Sure, being attractive and subtle about it help in making you seem much less creepy in the latter case, or ensure that people might not mind as much in the former, but beyond that...

At any rate, I had an happening confirming girls may feel threatened when certain situations arise - picture me minding my own business on the train with the seat next to the side window unoccupied (the train is one of those with only two seats per side on a row). At a certain point during the travel a girl from a row ahead and on the other side gets up and asks if she can sit there.
Can't help but being vaguely surprised but "Sure, go ahead". Shortly after I inquired about it and it went on more or like this. (Alrite, maaaaybe I had intention of making a pass)
A: "Not to stick my nose in your business, but was there something wrong with that seat of yours?"
G: "Oh, no. You've seen that man passing before?"
A: "Yes?" (someone did pass through the wagon but if I remember right he was like an old man)
G: "Yeah. Think he's following me. He got in the same station I did and was behind me through some wagons."
A: "Ah. Right..."

Then I considered a variety of replies, but no matter what, everything sounds plain right in that kind of situation and thus ended up steering the conversation on small talk 'till it was get off time.

Just as an example of a situation where it's probably best not to hit on the girl. If you wanna do save something out of it on the male side, nurture your ego into thinking she came to seek your protection even if the train was full of people and complete with controllers, and it takes a serial madman to try anything there.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 05:57 PM

Thread explosion :smalleek: And don't compare it to the pony thread. At least I expect it of the pony thread.

I don't know about the second part of your statement (although it seems unlikely to me, that a guy would talk about committing a felony and his friend would too?...), but for the cops part...

The kind of guy who would rape a woman, likely has friends that aren't exactly "good guy" material either, and there is a good chance he'd mention it to them "yeah man, I totally put something in her drink and had at it", and from there, the friends might say to their other friends "Yeah, she was drunk and he banged her", and in my community(if such a thing were to occur), considering how gossipy we are, we would know the person in question, and what kind of person they are, and if we know the girl as well, it wouldn't be to hard to deduce that she probably didn't consent. It's a bit round-about, but you get the picture.

First of all, a lot of sexual assaults aren't reported to the cops. Yeah you'd report someone jumping out of a bush at night, but those aren't the majority of the attacks. It's much harder to call the police on someone you've known for years and apologized profusely once he was sober. A lot of people don't think date rape is rape. Even if they do, it's hard to report a rape if the guy knows where you live and threatens you against it.
Also, there are some sort of medical rape tests that happen as part of police investigation and I've heard they're nearly as violating as the rape itself. A lot of women won't report an attack or won't follow through on an investigation because they don't want to take the tests.

Second, it's not that easy to get "fair" justice for sexual assaults, because a lot of the cases turn into he-said-she-said. And then there's some horrible examples, like the story behind Denim Day:
(That link also has a story of a rape victim who called the police but they didn't continue the investigation.)

I'll admit, I have no idea what ANY Of that has to do with my comment that the cops would talk about a sexual assault call that they responded to. I guess maybe you're just expounding on other peoples mention that not all rapes are reported, but it really has nothing to do with what I said at all, so maybe not say "But for the cops part".

And third, aren't there privacy laws against that sort of gossip? :eek:

That's the part that I think was meant for me, and, yes, I'm sure there are, but again, there are under 1700 people in my town(actually, I'm pretty sure the last census it was reported as under 1300), and things get around with extreme alacrity, regardless of whether or not it's improper. Hell, just to get the point across: Our previous Chief of Police was arrested for illegal drug possession, found by a state cop when he was doing drugs with some of the towns teenagers >< Another cop at that time fled town and last I heard currently living somewhere around Texas/Mexico. He was guilty of stealing drugs from the town drug locker. The same cops who thought it was funny when I reported that some jocks(I was 17 at the time) had blocked me in at the local Gas station and were kicking the **** out of my car and threatening to beat the hell out of me. They told me, as they laughed "There is no law against threats in maryland". Granted, those cops are gone, but the ones that have replaced them aren't particularly any better, and two of the cops from that era are still around on the force.

So, yeah, again, while I realize this might not be true of all communities, in mine, something like a Sexual Assault, news of it would get around, one way, or another. The fact that I only personally know of one "supposed"(though I do believe it) case, kind of gives me the idea that the 1 in 4 statistic is false(but again, as I said in my 2nd post also, that's if you only count rape. If you count groping(grabbing the butt, or breast, or rubbing yourself against the woman in an inappropriate manner), I can see it easily being 1 in 4, probably 1 in 3).

Anyways, I realize I've derailed the thread a bit with all that, so I'm pretty much out of the convo, as I don't really have much to say on the whole "What makes a guy a creep" bit. I'm married, so I don't particularly worry or care about what women find creepy, as I don't associate with other women in RL, and I don't really see how it's possible to be creepy online unless you go out of your way to stalk someones facebook page/forums they post, and constantly make suggestive remarks, which I don't do either. ^^

Old men pretty much exist to be inappropriate and receive less social sanction for it. It is a mystery, I'll admit. :smallconfused: The things grandpas can get away with teaching their grandsons which would have me exiled from society if I taught a younger brother or cousin, well, it just baffles me. :smalleek:

Why does that baffle you? Older people(like, 70's or what not), grew up in an entirely different era, where race, sex, and sexual orientation, were all things that could be used to discriminate against, and were done so freely and without repercussion. It's a lot harder for an older person to change and "get with the times", especially when it's how they lived a majority of their life, so a certain amount of leeway should be given to them. My parents, for example, are very much racists(though my mom insists she's not, but she'll call a black person a you know what, and will insist that interracial marriages are the worst thing ever), and certainly think homosexuality is an abomination. Do I hate them for it? No. Do I wish they would they change? Of course. Do I believe they will? Definitely not, they are considerably older, and very much set in their ways. Would I get mad if someone chewed them out for their views and it wasn't me? Yes, I would, because again, they grew up differently then we have now-a-days, and change isn't always easy, especially not at their age. My mom has told me several times that her Daddy would have skinned her alive if she had associated with a black person. That's what you call extremely ingrained behavior, and that's hard to break free from.

TL;DR: It seems perfectly normal and reasonable to me that people of a certain age will have trouble adjusting to societies ever-changing moral values.

Aedilred

2012-02-15, 07:32 PM

The kind of guy who would rape a woman, likely has friends that aren't exactly "good guy" material either, and there is a good chance he'd mention it to them "yeah man, I totally put something in her drink and had at it", and from there, the friends might say to their other friends "Yeah, she was drunk and he banged her", and in my community(if such a thing were to occur), considering how gossipy we are, we would know the person in question, and what kind of person they are, and if we know the girl as well, it wouldn't be to hard to deduce that she probably didn't consent. It's a bit round-about, but you get the picture.
The thing is, this idea of "the kind of guy who would rape a woman" is not really all that great. Most sexual assaults happen within existing relationships (romantic or otherwise) and in many cases probably won't even be what we would think of as intentional - the guy might have been drinking, on drugs, out of his normal frame of mind for some reason... It doesn't have to be violent. A lot of the time, it'll be something that "happens", and they feel guilty about, or they're worried about the consequences of should it be found out, and so on. The example above of the guy who sexually assaults a friend, and then apologises... that sort of thing probably happens a lot, with neither party speaking of it again, to anyone.

It's a fictional example, but the Thomas Covenant stories (at least the first three, which I have read, before bailing out of the series) offer a reasonable illustration of this point, I think. The eponymous protagonist - you could open those books at almost any point and read the contents and come to the conclusion that he wasn't a bad man - a bit lazy, a bit cowardly, a bit unfriendly - but the idea of him raping a girl would seem pretty extraordinary. Apart from the part where he rapes a girl. It wasn't something he set out to do, it wasn't something he was proud of (he was very regretful and I don't think ever told anyone else) but it happened all the same.

Or Camus's L'Etranger, which centres on a killing rather than a rape, but the idea is the same. Someone asked a friend of mine (much more "into" the book than I am/was) why the narrator had killed the man, and, after a bit of thought, he just gave a Gallic shrug and said "because of the sun... and the... stuff, and because he could..." The character isn't a "killer", he doesn't really think about what he's doing, there are no reasons for what he does, he just does it and is left to think about it for the rest of the novel.

That's part of the problem, I think. I don't think about it, but if I did, everyone I meet, or see, and also a substantial number of people I never meet or see is/are capable of killing me. They might not have killed anyone before; they might not kill anyone again. How many people do you know who you would say was capable of killing? They all could. They almost certainly won't, and it's madness to look at it in those terms. But all it takes is a series of electrical signals in their head and bam! they've killed someone. How can you know that won't happen, even to you?

I like to think that rape is different, that the nature of it means that there's more opportunity for a rational/moral override. I hope so. But I'm also aware that I've lost self-control for whatever reason at various times throughout my life for sustained periods and done things I regretted - things I would never normally have done. In a very crude sense, I can say with confidence that I'm never going to rape - or for that matter murder or rob - anyone. But if "I" go missing from my own head for a bit, as I have done, "I" don't know what "I'm" capable of at that point.*

This is a very long way of saying that you can't be confident that this "sort of thing" isn't going on in your community and with people you know, because people will act entirely unpredictably if the circumstances are right. And because of the nature of the crime in this case, it's the sort of thing that often never gets talked about by either party.

This isn't to say that you need to be suspicious of everyone, because that way lies madness. I have plenty of friends, male and female who I assume (and hope) are comfortable around me and aren't worried I'm going to attack them, even though I could. (I won't). But it is to say never to assume anything absolutely when it comes to this sort of thing, and never fall into the habit of thinking about "that sort of guy/girl" because, well, people are all individuals and they're all capable of surprises.

*In fact, I used to obsessively analyse my relationship with my now-ex-gf in the worry that I was somehow accidentally sexually abusing her. In retrospect, it was all totally consensual, and my obsessive worry and guilt about the subject probably contributed significantly to our splitting up. You live and learn.

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 08:06 PM

TL;DR: It seems perfectly normal and reasonable to me that people of a certain age will have trouble adjusting to societies ever-changing moral values.

The current crop of 70 year olds, when were they 40? 30? There ya go.

Nor is it that they'd have trouble adjusting.

It's that people are perfectly OK with them teaching young children to look up waitresses' skirts and the like.

SweetLikeLemons

2012-02-15, 08:09 PM

Disagree. Hear me out.

If I do not think that any man might be a rapist or that a random woman walking down the street might be casing my house, then the result is that I do not pay close enough attention to notice cues that the man might be a rapist or the woman might be a mugger, which means that my ability to defend myself is severely reduced.

On the other hand, if I look at people as if they might be rapist or muggers or whatever, I am paying close attention to cues both positive and negative. It's called situational awareness and I do this CONSTANTLY. And I can pretty much guarantee that most "good people" do not notice this about me, because I have already evaluated them off of their positive cues.

It's not that I look at a man and freak out and think "OMG IM GOING TO BE RAPED" but that I look at the potentials for each situation.

Example: as I drive down the road, I am watching the people on the side of the road. I do this because they might do something stupid like jump out in front of me. Now, most of them aren't going to do that. But if I just assume that most people aren't and I shouldn't worry about it, then when someone does (and yes, this did happen to me), I would have run them over. As it happened, I was able to identify odd behavior in this person and was therefore prepared to stop and/or swerve as needed when they jumped into the road.

My two cents anyway.

This. Yes.

This kind of vigilance and awareness has probably saved my life. When I lived alone I came home late one night and a man I didn't recognize was on the stairway of my apartment building, by the mailboxes. It was a holiday weekend, so it was reasonable to think a stranger might have been there, checking the mail for an absent friend, or visiting someone. But there was something in his body language that was... off. I had to walk past him. He didn't say anything, didn't move closer to me, he just looked at me. But in my head, alarm bells went off. Usually, at that time, I didn't bother locking that door unless I was out or was going to bed. But this time, I was freaked out enough just by how he looked at me that I immediately set the deadbolt. And a good thing, too. Right after, I heard quiet footsteps on the stairs, and then... my door handle turned. He started violently shaking the door as I called the cops. I guess he heard me talking to the dispatcher, because he turned off all the lights in the hallway and tried to hide. He was still there when the cops showed up.

Side note: The cops seemed to think I had overreacted by telling the dispatcher someone was trying to break in. I responded that he was trying to get in the door and I wasn't going to wait until he went around to try the windows. I guess I would rather be labeled a hysterical female than a careless victim... :smallsigh:

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 08:22 PM

The thing is, this idea of "the kind of guy who would rape a woman" is not really all that great. Most sexual assaults happen within existing relationships (romantic or otherwise) and in many cases probably won't even be what we would think of as intentional - the guy might have been drinking, on drugs, out of his normal frame of mind for some reason... It doesn't have to be violent. A lot of the time, it'll be something that "happens", and they feel guilty about, or they're worried about the consequences of should it be found out, and so on. The example above of the guy who sexually assaults a friend, and then apologises... that sort of thing probably happens a lot, with neither party speaking of it again, to anyone.

If it's not violent, can it really be rape? The definition of rape is against a persons will, and if it's against their will, that means you must be forcing them into it, which means you are using violence. If there is no violence, then the other party did nothing to stop it, which means they had no issue with what was happening(WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THEM ALSO BEING OUT OF THEIR REGULAR FRAME OF MIND! If they are drunk, or otherwise impaired, and they didn't struggle, it can still be rape if they didn't want it to happen. But if they are perfectly sober, and do nothing, say nothing, then I don't personally believe it can be constituted as rape). Just a little nitpick there, otherwise I can see what you mean and even agree.

That's part of the problem, I think. I don't think about it, but if I did, everyone I meet, or see, and also a substantial number of people I never meet or see is/are capable of killing me. They might not have killed anyone before; they might not kill anyone again. How many people do you know who you would say was capable of killing? They all could. They almost certainly won't, and it's madness to look at it in those terms. But all it takes is a series of electrical signals in their head and bam! they've killed someone. How can you know that won't happen, even to you?

Ehh, I'm not a big believer that the wiring in our brain solely determines our actions, sorry. As in, I don't believe that someone who has never particularly had a terribly violent thought towards another, is really capable of murder, even accidentally. I can safely, and with 100% utter certainty, say that I will NEVER murder, or rape someone, no matter what signals my brain tries to emit. 100%. ONE HUNDRED, Percent. You'll never convince me otherwise, sorry. So, no, I don't think that someone who has never been predisposed towards violence, or has never had overwhelming urges to sexually molest someone, would ever give into those ideas just because something went "zap" inside their head.

I like to think that rape is different, that the nature of it means that there's more opportunity for a rational/moral override. I hope so. But I'm also aware that I've lost self-control for whatever reason at various times throughout my life for sustained periods and done things I regretted - things I would never normally have done. In a very crude sense, I can say with confidence that I'm never going to rape - or for that matter murder or rob - anyone. But if "I" go missing from my own head for a bit, as I have done, "I" don't know what "I'm" capable of at that point.*

Then that means that you are predisposed to such things. Not everyone is though. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it. I've never "lost self-control for sustained periods of time", and I've been through quite a lot of crap in my life. It's got just as much to how you were raised, and the environment you were surrounded with, as misfires inside your head as far as I'm concerned. Which goes back to having to be predisposed towards violence or strong, uncontrollable sexual urges, in order to do something like that.

This is a very long way of saying that you can't be confident that this "sort of thing" isn't going on in your community and with people you know, because people will act entirely unpredictably if the circumstances are right. And because of the nature of the crime in this case, it's the sort of thing that often never gets talked about by either party.

I will still say you just don't understand how bad my community is with talking, but let's just agree to disagree. I know things about people in my town that I've never even met before, and there are people in the town that know things about me and I've never met them before. It's the nature of my town, and I've already said that it's a fairly extreme example, not all communities are as small and backwards as mine is.

kyoryu

2012-02-15, 08:25 PM

THAC0

2012-02-15, 08:26 PM

If it's not violent, can it really be rape? The definition of rape is against a persons will, and if it's against their will, that means you must be forcing them into it, which means you are using violence. If there is no violence, then the other party did nothing to stop it, which means they had no issue with what was happening(WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THEM ALSO BEING OUT OF THEIR REGULAR FRAME OF MIND! If they are drunk, or otherwise impaired, and they didn't struggle, it can still be rape if they didn't want it to happen. But if they are perfectly sober, and do nothing, say nothing, then I don't personally believe it can be constituted as rape). Just a little nitpick there, otherwise I can see what you mean and even agree.

Yes, yes, a hundred million times YES IT IS STILL RAPE IF IT IS NOT VIOLENT. End of story.

If they say no, it is rape, even if they do not physically resist. End of story.

ETA: I'll even go for if they do not say Yes, either verbally or physically, it is rape.

Weezer

2012-02-15, 08:29 PM

If it's not violent, can it really be rape? The definition of rape is against a persons will, and if it's against their will, that means you must be forcing them into it, which means you are using violence. If there is no violence, then the other party did nothing to stop it, which means they had no issue with what was happening(WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THEM ALSO BEING OUT OF THEIR REGULAR FRAME OF MIND! If they are drunk, or otherwise impaired, and they didn't struggle, it can still be rape if they didn't want it to happen. But if they are perfectly sober, and do nothing, say nothing, then I don't personally believe it can be constituted as rape). Just a little nitpick there, otherwise I can see what you mean and even agree.

There are more kinds of violence and coercion than physical violence. And plenty of women have been coerced in non-violent ways, the most obvious is the the expectation/threat of violence if they didn't comply, into having sex. Rape isn't always some big guy holding down a struggling, screaming, crying woman, especially when it's intra-marital rape. Sometimes a woman can say the words "yes", but if it's coerced then it's still rape.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 08:35 PM

The current crop of 70 year olds, when were they 40? 30? There ya go.

Nor is it that they'd have trouble adjusting.

It's that people are perfectly OK with them teaching young children to look up waitresses' skirts and the like.

Uhh, the world was still a different place, even 30 and 40 years ago. They were raised in an entirely different way then we have been today, and it is damn hard to break out of such deeply ingrained behavior and habits. Though, even back then, looking up a womans skirt was frowned upon, so those guys are just perverts, or as the thread has been talking about: Creeps/creepy.

Or the threat of violence. "I'll kill you if you don't..." is just as much of a rape as violently forcing someone.

I kind of figured that even implied violence would be, well, implied, in my post. Sorry if I didn't immediately put that out there.

Yes, yes, a hundred million times YES IT IS STILL RAPE IF IT IS NOT VIOLENT. End of story.

If they say no, it is rape, even if they do not physically resist. End of story.

ETA: I'll even go for if they do not say Yes, either verbally or physically, it is rape.

Uhh, way to not read my post, Congratulations! I specifically said "Say nothing". And, I'll disagree, if there is no violence, no threat of violence, implied or otherwise, and the girl says nothing, or does nothing to stop the person, then to me, that would imply they are ok with it. I will give the further exclusion of children in this though, because they may not know better then to say no, as well as mentally handicapped people(I'm adding in all the exceptions I can think of, I don't need someone misinterpreting what I said and think I'm some horrible person).

So, If no violence, no threat of violence, is of proper age, sober, and sound of mind, and they do nothing, say nothing, take no action to prevent what is happening(and I'm specifically defining Sexual Assault as rape in this case), then it can not be rape.

DeadManSleeping

2012-02-15, 08:36 PM

Much like how a contract signed under duress is void, so is consent given for sex. There's even a phrase out there, "good consent", which notes the difference.

Good consent:
Person 1: Would you like sex?
Person 2: Yes, please

Bad consent:
1: Would you like sex?
2: Um
1: If you say no, you're fired
2: Fine

Obviously, the line isn't ALWAYS that clear, but you get the idea

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 08:37 PM

Yes, yes, a hundred million times YES IT IS STILL RAPE IF IT IS NOT VIOLENT. End of story.

If they say no, it is rape, even if they do not physically resist. End of story.

ETA: I'll even go for if they do not say Yes, either verbally or physically, it is rape.

Indeed, the problematic areas are a lot murkier than simply lacking in violence or the threat of violence.

For instance, the times where it's rape despite consent being given and no attempts at coercion being asserted. Or people try to make out going out on a date as coercion in and of itself without some other atmosphere or behavior.

THAC0

2012-02-15, 08:40 PM

Uhh, way to not read my post, Congratulations! I specifically said "Say nothing". And, I'll disagree, if there is no violence, no threat of violence, implied or otherwise, and the girl says nothing, or does nothing to stop the person, then to me, that would imply they are ok with it. I will give the further exclusion of children in this though, because they may not know better then to say no, as well as mentally handicapped people(I'm adding in all the exceptions I can think of, I don't need someone misinterpreting what I said and think I'm some horrible person).

So, If no violence, no threat of violence, is of proper age, sober, and sound of mind, and they do nothing, say nothing, take no action to prevent what is happening(and I'm specifically defining Sexual Assault as rape in this case), then it can not be rape.

I also edited my post immediately to include my thought that if they SAY NOTHING and do not give explicit consent either verbally or physically, it is still rape. That is to say, if she says nothing and just lays there, yes, still rape.

Also, I think you are defining "violence" in a far different manner than most people here are. This may or may not be a cultural thing, as may your definition of sexual assault as rape.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 08:44 PM

Also, please note, that I am merely arguing against what Aedlired said about it still being rape if it's not violent. I am specifically arguing against that particular definition, as by the very definition of rape, violence is either used, or implied, in one way, or another. If a woman says no, and you continue, that constitutes violence in my opinion, even if you're not actually hurting them, the fact of the matter is, you are still holding them down, and forcing yourself on them, which is violent.

Hell, the very things I said, are realistically impossible to happen, because if a man or woman were to start having sex with someone else, that other person is going to have an opinion, one way or another. I can't really imagine someone going over to someone, stripping them of their clothes, while taking off their own, and beginning to copulate with them, and the other person just laying their, not saying or doing anything about it. It would be entirely unnatural I think, so my entire argument against Aedlired is entirely hypothetical. I was merely arguing that the very definition of rape implies some sort of violence.

Figured I should add this post before people on this forum start thinking I'm some kind of advocate of rape or sexual assault, or making excuses or reasons up for why it happens, when I'm really not. I am 100% against rape, in all forms, it is wrong, and in no way should anyone ever think it's not wrong.

I also edited my post immediately to include my thought that if they SAY NOTHING and do not give explicit consent either verbally or physically, it is still rape. That is to say, if she says nothing and just lays there, yes, still rape.

Also, I think you are defining "violence" in a far different manner than most people here are. This may or may not be a cultural thing, as may your definition of sexual assault as rape.

I'll have to disagree with you then. As I said earlier in this very post, the very idea that someone is going to start having sex with someone else, and the other person not having an opinion or saying something about it, is probably never going to happen. Not if they are completely sound mind(not a kid, completely sober, not mentally handicapped, not a past victim of sexual abuse). if it does happen, however, then I don't think it could be considered rape. Really, can you name any type of person(that I haven't already excluded) who wouldn't have something to say about someone, be it stranger or someone they know, coming up to them and starting to have sex with them? Because I honestly can not think of anyone in the described circumstances who would behave in such a way.

THAC0

2012-02-15, 08:47 PM

I was merely arguing that the very definition of rape implies some sort of violence.

Again, that depends on how you define violence. Threat of job loss, for example, I would define as blackmail, not violence. You seem to define that as violence, am I correct? If you define everything apart from consent as violence, then of course there cannot be rape without violence by that definition.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 08:51 PM

Again, that depends on how you define violence. Threat of job loss, for example, I would define as blackmail, not violence. You seem to define that as violence, am I correct? If you define everything apart from consent as violence, then of course there cannot be rape without violence by that definition.

Yes, In that case, I would in fact consider that to be violence. It's a form of coercion that would FORCE the other person to do something against their will, in order to maintain their livelihood. If you threaten to fire your subordinate if they don't have sex with you, you are committing an act of violence by basically forcing them to choose between feeding themselves and clothing themselves, and having sex with you. So, yeah, I see that as violent.

I guess we are just not defining violence in the same way, at least in how it pertains to rape. Any form of coercion that would force someone to have sex with you, when they normally wouldn't, could be considered rape in my opinion, and yes, I think any Manager or Supervisor in that position should be prosecuted as a rape case, not merely a Sexual Harassment case as it might often be considered. I'm rather strict on my view of stuff like that, and don't take anyone forcing someone else to do something they normally wouldn't very lightly.

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 08:52 PM

Uhh, the world was still a different place, even 30 and 40 years ago. They were raised in an entirely different way then we have been today, and it is damn hard to break out of such deeply ingrained behavior and habits. Though, even back then, looking up a womans skirt was frowned upon, so those guys are just perverts, or as the thread has been talking about: Creeps/creepy.

Yes, that was my point. However, age factors in to an extent as well, as it is acceptable for them to be creepy and to teach their descendants this type of behavior, at least to enough people for it to be a recurring theme in media.

The fact that you're actually attempting to go beyond explanation and instead justify them and using a tone of this actually being an OK aspect of reality is, frankly, disturbing.

Weezer

2012-02-15, 08:53 PM

The thing is that rape is not "violent sex", if it was some of my kinks would rest forever unfulfilled, which would be rather unfortunate. Rape is sex without valid consent, violence doesn't necessarily enter into it.

THAC0

2012-02-15, 08:57 PM

Yes, In that case, I would in fact consider that to be violence. It's a form of coercion that would FORCE the other person to do something against their will, in order to maintain their livelihood. If you threaten to fire your subordinate if they don't have sex with you, you are committing an act of violence by basically forcing them to choose between feeding themselves and clothing themselves, and having sex with you. So, yeah, I see that as violent.

I guess we are just not defining violence in the same way, at least in how it pertains to rape. Any form of coercion that would force someone to have sex with you, when they normally wouldn't, could be considered rape in my opinion, and yes, I think any Manager or Supervisor in that position should be prosecuted as a rape case, not merely a Sexual Harassment case as it might often be considered. I'm rather strict on my view of stuff like that, and don't take anyone forcing someone else to do something they normally wouldn't very lightly.

At this point, I'm actually more confused on your definition of sexual assault! :smallwink:

I agree that coercion or the threat of violence is, in fact, rape. All the laws that I know of in my country also take that view. In fact, I don't know anyone who would consider it to be sexual assault instead of rape. :smallconfused:

Where we differ is whether or not the actions are considered violent. Every other discussion on this topic I've had has differentiated between violence and coercion, even though the result is the same (rape).

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 08:59 PM

Yes, that was my point. However, age factors in to an extent as well, as it is acceptable for them to be creepy and to teach their descendants this type of behavior, at least to enough people for it to be a recurring theme in media.

The fact that you're actually attempting to go beyond explanation and instead justify them and using a tone of this actually being an OK aspect of reality is, frankly, disturbing.

Why is it disturbing? Why should I not justify my parents behavior, when I feel it makes perfectly logical sense? I'm not saying I agree with them. I find racism, sexism, and other forms of intolerance as abhorrent and over-all not a good thing, but I fully realize that they grew up in an entirely different era, and while I disagree with their views, I see where they aren't really capable of changing, and it is a perfectly ok aspect of reality. We can't change how they grew up can we? No. Can we agree it is very difficult to change deeply ingrained behavior(to the extent that my moms dad said he'd tan her hide if she associated with a black person)? If so, then it's an acceptable aspect of reality that they are the way they are, and they will behave as they were taught to behave, and that we should give some form of accommodation to them in deference to the circumstances in which they were raised.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 09:01 PM

At this point, I'm actually more confused on your definition of sexual assault! :smallwink:

I agree that coercion or the threat of violence is, in fact, rape. All the laws that I know of in my country also take that view. In fact, I don't know anyone who would consider it to be sexual assault instead of rape. :smallconfused:

Where we differ is whether or not the actions are considered violent. Every other discussion on this topic I've had has differentiated between violence and coercion, even though the result is the same (rape).

I make no differentiation between violence and coercion when it comes to rape. Clear enough? I feel that coercing someone into sex by using blackmail or other means, is just as violent as throwing them to the ground, and ripping their clothes off. Just because you're not actually hurting them physically doesn't make it any less violent inside their head, ya know?

Aedilred

2012-02-15, 09:02 PM

If it's not violent, can it really be rape?
Yes.

This is part of the problem with rape - a lot of it goes unacknowledged because it doesn't meet people's preconceived definitions. I suspect, but have no data to prove, that violent sexual assaults are actually a fairly small minority of actual rapes.

I mean, if you begin having sex with someone with their consent, and then they decide that actually, this isn't for them, they ask you to stop (honestly; obviously pre-arranged instances of "oh no, you stop that at once, you bad boy", etc. don't count, although even there err on the side of caution) and you ignore or deny that request and continue, then that's rape. (At least, it is under UK law, and I think there's a strong moral argument for it).

Ehh, I'm not a big believer that the wiring in our brain solely determines our actions, sorry. As in, I don't believe that someone who has never particularly had a terribly violent thought towards another, is really capable of murder, even accidentally. I can safely, and with 100% utter certainty, say that I will NEVER murder, or rape someone, no matter what signals my brain tries to emit. 100%. ONE HUNDRED, Percent. You'll never convince me otherwise, sorry. So, no, I don't think that someone who has never been predisposed towards violence, or has never had overwhelming urges to sexually molest someone, would ever give into those ideas just because something went "zap" inside their head.
You see, I disagree entirely. I think that a degree of self-doubt is critical. There's a logical fallacy that indicates that if you trust your own judgment then you probably shouldn't (whereas if you don't, you're more likely to be able to) because it's the lack of trust and the rational questioning of it that makes it worthwhile. I think it's dangerous to assume that I'm not capable of something, even if I don't hold or never have held any desire to do it.

If we remove the emotive issue of rape from the equation and look at it like driving a car, then who's more likely to crash - the guy who gets into the car thinking "I'm a good driver and therefore won't hit any lamp-posts" or the guy who gets in the car thinking "I'm a good driver and probably won't hit any lamp-posts, but it's probably a good idea to keep an eye out, all the same"? Moreover, the former state of mind is one where I'd worry that he'd drive when obviously unfit to do so (after, say, drinking) because "I'm a good driver" and, even after he's pranged his vehicle, he'll justify it to himself as "I'm a good driver and therefore couldn't have driven into that lamp-post; it must have driven into me".

See where I'm going? Not to say that you actually are going to do any of this stuff any more than I am, but it seems to be to be very dangerous to assume that you never will do something that you are physically capable of, and thus close your mind entirely to the possibility, because circumstances change everything.

As for going missing from my own head, leaving aside those times where I've just been straightforward drunk, I'm not talking about days or months there - but a few minutes at a time is enough. Nor am I just talking about episodes of hallucinatory psychotic depression or the like, just occasions where you're daydreaming and end up somewhere and have no recollection of anything en route, or someone you know intimately is able to walk right up to you without your noticing them because you're off somewhere else. I don't think I'm unusual in that (maybe I am?) but that to me is an indication that my rational, thinking, moral brain is not always 100% engaged with what my body is doing. Couple that with some sort of sudden, unpredictable emotional reaction and who knows what anybody is capable of?

THAC0

2012-02-15, 09:03 PM

I make no differentiation between violence and coercion when it comes to rape. Clear enough? I feel that coercing someone into sex by using blackmail or other means, is just as violent as throwing them to the ground, and ripping their clothes off. Just because you're not actually hurting them physically doesn't make it any less violent inside their head, ya know?

I understand what you are saying. I'm just pointing out that your definition might not a common one and that's something to consider when coming out with a statement along the lines of "if it's not violent it's not rape."

Coidzor

2012-02-15, 09:11 PM

I make no differentiation between violence and coercion when it comes to rape. Clear enough?

Then if you understand that you're agreeing to disagree, could you avoid asking how rape can occur without violence if you know that everyone else defines it as violence or coercion rather than as violence with an asterisk that refers to a definition of violence that has been expanded to include coercion?

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 09:18 PM

snip

To the parts about rape: Please read my other posts as to why I say if it's not violent it's not rape. You'll understand my point of view much better, as the person I'm quoting below can attest to.

To the other part, I'm sorry, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm actually getting quite a bit annoyed and vehement with your words. I know myself, inside and out, I've lived with mind for the last 30 years. There are no circumstances on this earth(even an apocalypse where it's every man and woman for himself) where I would murder, or rape another human being. Even if meant the difference between living and dying. I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me otherwise, and as I said, I'm not interested in further discussing this.

I understand what you are saying. I'm just pointing out that your definition might not a common one and that's something to consider when coming out with a statement along the lines of "if it's not violent it's not rape."

you do have a point. For me, there are no blurry lines, it's either Rape, or it's consensual. The person either has absolutely no problem with having sex with you, is in their right frame of mind, is not a child, is not mentally handicapped, is not being coerced in any way, and is not being physically forced, or they are being raped. No ifs, ands, or buts about it as far as I'm concerned. I'm pretty black and white on the issue really. If I was a judge, I'd prosecute every Manager or supervisor who has threatened unemployment in order to get laid with rape charges of the most stringent degree, every bit as harshly as I would someone who held a woman(or man!) at knife or gun point and violently violated her(him).

Which is all a round a bout way of me defending my "if it's not violent, it's not rape".

Then if you understand that you're agreeing to disagree, could you avoid asking how rape can occur without violence if you know that everyone else defines it as violence or coercion rather than as violence with an asterisk that refers to a definition of violence that has been expanded to include coercion?

Actually, I wasn't really agreeing to disagree, I was merely expounding upon my definition, which until just now, I had previously believed that everyone else would probably hold as well. I mean, abuse is abuse, whether it's physical or emotional, right? A kid who is told he is dirt and not worth anything day in and day out is going to end up just as scarred as the kid who gets hit day in and day out. To me, Coercing someone into sex via blackmail or other means, is just as violent, because you are forcing an unconsciousnable(Yeah, I can't think of how to spell that atm) choice on them, and are raping their mind just as much as their body.

so, yeah, I always believed, up until now, that everyone else would define this whole topic the same way as me. I see now that I was wrong, and NOW I agree to disagree with the standard definition, but before I wasn't because I believed everyone else would be sharing the same definition. Capise?

THAC0

2012-02-15, 09:23 PM

you do have a point. For me, there are no blurry lines, it's either Rape, or it's consensual. The person either has absolutely no problem with having sex with you, is in their right frame of mind, is not a child, is not mentally handicapped, is not being coerced in any way, and is not being physically forced, or they are being raped. No ifs, ands, or buts about it as far as I'm concerned. I'm pretty black and white on the issue really. If I was a judge, I'd prosecute every Manager or supervisor who has threatened unemployment in order to get laid with rape charges of the most stringent degree, every bit as harshly as I would someone who held a woman(or man!) at knife or gun point and violently violated her(him).

Which is all a round a bout way of me defending my "if it's not violent, it's not rape".

There aren't any blurry lines for the rest of us, either. We all believe that it is either rape or consensual. We've never disagreed with this, and I'd be careful of implying that we have (although I think you did so unintentially). All the disagreement is over, is whether or not coercion is violent. Nothing else. No one has suggested that coerced rape should have a lesser penalty, whether or not we consider it violent.

ETA: As clarification, given any situation you and I would agree 100% on whether or not it was rape and 100% on what the punishment should be, but might not agree on a certain descriptor being applied.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 09:26 PM

There aren't any blurry lines for the rest of us, either. We all believe that it is either rape or consensual. We've never disagreed with this, and I'd be careful of implying that we have (although I think you did so unintentially). All the disagreement is over, is whether or not coercion is violent. Nothing else. No one has suggested that coerced rape should have a lesser penalty, whether or not we consider it violent.

Sorry about that, yeah, I didn't mean it the way it may have sounded, I meant there are no blurry lines between whether or not coercion can be considered violent when it pertains to rape, not about rape and consensual. Apologizes to anyone who may have taken it any other way.

Anyways, can we continue on with the original discussion of what constitutes creepiness, now that this has all been cleared up? ^^ My fingers are getting tired of typing rapid-fire, and I need to finish washing the dishes before my wife brains me upside the head with a dishtowel. LOL

Grinner

2012-02-15, 09:39 PM

What about rough sex? Seems pretty violent to me, but it can be consensual.

Weezer

2012-02-15, 09:43 PM

What about rough sex? Seems pretty violent to me, but it can be consensual.

That was my point, but it got buried in the flurry of replies. The qualification for rape is not violence, it's sex without valid consent. Sure, most time non-consensual sex involves some form of violence or coercion, but not always.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 09:45 PM

What about rough sex? Seems pretty violent to me, but it can be consensual.

lol, that's uhh..pretty irrelevant to what we were discussing, or at least I would think. To answer though, if it's consensual, it's consensual. If it's not, it's rape. lol. You can have rough, violent sex, and it not be rape if the other person wants it and enjoys it, LOL. (hell, they don't even need to enjoy it, you could be trying it for the first time, and find that one or the other doesn't like it, as long as the woman agrees, it's consensual).

That was my point, but it got buried in the flurry of replies. The qualification for rape is not violence, it's sex without valid consent. Sure, most time non-consensual sex involves some form of violence or coercion, but not always.

Sigh. Every part of me is screaming to let this be, but I just can't. Please, explain/illustrate exactly HOW there can be non-consensual sex if there is no threat of violence or coercion?(keep in mind, that it's non-consensual if the other party is drunk or otherwise impaired, is a child, mentally handicapped, or a victim of past abuse who is literally incapable of stopping it). Because I have to say, I really don't see how it's possible. If you're not threatening the other person, or actively harming them, through violence or coercion, how can it be rape, given the above exclusions? This is what I thought I was arguing about earlier, but it ended up not being the case, so now I'll take the debate up with you.

Grinner

2012-02-15, 09:48 PM

lol, that's uhh..pretty irrelevant to what we were discussing, or at least I would think. To answer though, if it's consensual, it's consensual. If it's not, it's rape. lol. You can have rough, violent sex, and it not be rape if the other person wants it and enjoys it, LOL. (hell, they don't even need to enjoy it, you could be trying it for the first time, and find that one or the other doesn't like it, as long as the woman agrees, it's consensual).

Yes, I did get in at the end of the discussion, but there was considerable mention of violence. I just wanted to point out that violence and sex does not mean rape.

Weezer

2012-02-15, 10:16 PM

Sigh. Every part of me is screaming to let this be, but I just can't. Please, explain/illustrate exactly HOW there can be non-consensual sex if there is no threat of violence or coercion?(keep in mind, that it's non-consensual if the other party is drunk or otherwise impaired, is a child, mentally handicapped, or a victim of past abuse who is literally incapable of stopping it). Because I have to say, I really don't see how it's possible. If you're not threatening the other person, or actively harming them, through violence or coercion, how can it be rape, given the above exclusions? This is what I thought I was arguing about earlier, but it ended up not being the case, so now I'll take the debate up with you.

If someone feels like they can't say no to sex with a spouse and thus lets them have sex, feels pressured by societal expectations and trapped into it, essentially coerced, but not by the spouse, but by the institution itself. Situations like that have no threat, no violence and 'compliance' from the raped party, but still no consent.

DeadManSleeping

2012-02-15, 10:32 PM

Just because someone isn't stopping you doesn't mean they want it. Humans are weird.

Starwulf

2012-02-15, 10:37 PM

If someone feels like they can't say no to sex with a spouse and thus lets them have sex, feels pressured by societal expectations and trapped into it, essentially coerced, but not by the spouse, but by the institution itself. Situations like that have no threat, no violence and 'compliance' from the raped party, but still no consent.

That's getting into an extremely complicated grey area, and one that I myself am not comfortable delving into, giving my particular view of, it's not rape if you're married and she doesn't say no, whether she feels pressured by society or not, she still has a voice. I will say, though, that if your spouse says no, and you force her to anyways, it could/might/should still be considered rape, but I'm not sure to what extent the guilty person should be punished, due to the fact that they are married, and, like I said, it's an extreme grey area.

To be honest though, given your extremely specific example, I still can't really see it happening. If a person is in a committed enough relationship, they are obviously going to be comfortable enough in telling their partner no. If they don't particularly feel like it, but do it anyways because they know it will make their partner happy, it would still be, in my mind, consensual sex.

Again, extreme grey area, and honestly the only example I think that could be given, and I actually did foresee that one arising. I was actually going to point it out myself earlier, but again, it's such a massive grey area, I don't really believe it's something that can be discussed without tempers greatly flaring up over it. I honestly think I may have already gone into it to much with what I have said, it's just such a potentially volatile topic.

Just because someone isn't stopping you doesn't mean they want it. Humans are weird.

Sooo(hypothetical situation here), if I'm at a party, and me and a woman are chatting, and we go upstairs to where it's more private, neither of us have had anything to drink, and are not otherwise impaired, and we talk for a bit, then I make a move to kiss her, and she kisses back, and then I take it further, but with absolute no impression of violence or pressure from me, and no coercion either, you would still consider it rape if she didn't stop me but didn't want it and never said so? Because I'll be perfectly honest, I don't think any judge in the world would convict me on that one, and I can't imagine anyone would even really take her side. If there is not a hint of resistance, not a single shaken head, a murmured no, then it can't really be rape, can it? If they didn't want it, they should have said something, or done something, anything at all to indicate otherwise, because if not, then the other party is definitely not at fault for assuming that it's going to be a consensual activity, and if they get accused of rape later, I can imagine them being extremely angry and surprised about it all.

Edit: let me simplify it for you, if that was a bit to much(and I can see how it would be). If one party begins physical copulation with another person, fully believing that it is entirely consensual based on the other persons previous behavior, and the other person does absolutely nothing to disavow them of that notion with even the smallest indication that they aren't interested, and they are of sound mind, how could you see that as rape? I'll be honest, given that scenario, I wouldn't consider it rape at all. If the other person wasn't interested and gives me absolutely no indication that they aren't interested, that is certainly not my fault what-so-ever(we are assuming two mature, of age adults)

Grinner

2012-02-15, 10:48 PM

Just because someone isn't stopping you doesn't mean they want it. Humans are weird.

It's not that humans are simply weird. It's that they're living, breathing paradoxes.

Weezer

2012-02-15, 10:58 PM

Just because someone isn't stopping you doesn't mean they want it. Humans are weird.

Yup, exactly

That's getting into an extremely complicated grey area, and one that I myself am not comfortable delving into, giving my particular view of, it's not rape if you're married and she doesn't say no, whether she feels pressured by society or not, she still has a voice. I will say, though, that if your spouse says no, and you force her to anyways, it could/might/should still be considered rape, but I'm not sure to what extent the guilty person should be punished, due to the fact that they are married, and, like I said, it's an extreme grey area.

To be honest though, given your extremely specific example, I still can't really see it happening. If a person is in a committed enough relationship, they are obviously going to be comfortable enough in telling their partner no. If they don't particularly feel like it, but do it anyways because they know it will make their partner happy, it would still be, in my mind, consensual sex.

Again, extreme grey area, and honestly the only example I think that could be given, and I actually did foresee that one arising. I was actually going to point it out myself earlier, but again, it's such a massive grey area, I don't really believe it's something that can be discussed without tempers greatly flaring up over it. I honestly think I may have already gone into it to much with what I have said, it's just such a potentially volatile topic.

Yup, it is a grey area, that's why rape can be very hard to figure out in the courtroom.

It might not rape if you're married? My god. Marriage is not implied consent. And not punishing a rapist even if force is involved if their married. From all of your posts on this it seems like you've grown up in a very sheltered area, where things like sexual abuse and rape are concerned.

I'm going to have to leave this here, I'm literally shaking from anger over that idea and shouldn't post when I'm this angry. I may be back later. Probably not. Gah.

Nano

2012-02-15, 11:28 PM

Starwulf: An excerpt from a blog I just found called "The Pervocracy." It seemed relevant.

Because if I had been doing the rape math in my head, if I had been going along with it out of fear or obligation, he wouldn't have known. He didn't rape me--but it would have looked exactly the same to him if he had.

That's the problem with "no means no." There's a lot of reasons someone might not say "no," and being into the sex is only one of them.

Is it "really" rape if you don't know the person isn't consenting? Probably not legally, but in terms of the effect on the person who's being used sexually while they're paralyzed with fear, might as well be. Accidentally shooting someone isn't murder but it leaves them just as dead.

Anyway, this question ought to be irrelevant. Whether ****ing someone who doesn't want it but doesn't object is rape or not, it's crappy and it's avoidable. It's not like good sex ever comes out of a situation where one partner is silent and immobile.

There's a little more finesse than just asking--you need to ask in a way that makes it clear "no" is an acceptable answer, and be sensitive to the difference between "...okay" and "OH YES"--but even without finesse, just asking makes 90% of the difference.

In addition, the only place "implied consent" is even remotely a thing is when you are a certified giver of first aid dealing with an unconscious patient. "Not a no" does not imply consent, not in the slightest.