Flesh to Stone: DM's Nightmare?

[Xyk]

Let me tell you a story about the last session I had. The party is level 11 and at this time consisted of a Permanently Enlarged half-orc warblade; a grey elf wizard/wild mage; and a wood elf rogue.

The Sky Queen (illegitimate daughter of Pelor) must perform a sacred ritual in order to obtain her rightful godhood. To do this, she must sacrifice a bunch of specific souls as well as do a bunch of other very specific things. The first step of her plan, and the only step the PCs are currently aware of (until this Friday's session), is to kidnap all the special people. She sent her 17th level swordsage cohort to go kidnap the wizard's brother, who owns the family business in the capital city. At this time, the party is visiting the city to pawn their various goods and are staying with the brother (of their own volition; no railroading in this part).

They hear a bump in the night (the brother being tied and kidnapped) and leap into action. Now, given the significantly higher level of the swordsage and typical incompetence of the party, I expected him to show them a little display of power before teleporting out with the brother. Then the wizard casts Flesh to Stone. The swordsage fails his save (we roll all rolls publicly and honestly).

That ruined my entire plot! I had to invent an entire new sorceress henchman on the fly to go in and rescue him! Thankfully, the party was careless after their victory and made some pretty large mistakes, namely leaving both the brother and the swordsage-statue alone and separate, and I was able to implement the rescue quickly.

But that was awful! I hate changing the villain's setup halfway through because it disturbs verisimilitude, but I saw no other option here.

Anyone else have trouble with this spell? Good ways to deal with it? Other stories of something simple wrecking a campaign?

[Engine]

IMHO, it was a truly awful call. The party managed to beat your henchman you send alone, and you just created another henchman on the fly so the party's victory was meaningless?
Speaking about railroading...

Anyway, it's simple to deal with Flesh to Stone. Immunity.
Construct are immune, there are some spells that give you immunity to petrification and there's always Stone to Flesh. Flesh to Stone is a SoD spell, and SoD spell most of the times aren't that troublesome. Either they do something or they do nothing. Sure, if they do something, is most of the times something nasty. But if they do nothing, you just wasted a high level slot to accomplish, well, nothing.

[Corlindale]

That's not really a particular issue with flesh to stone, it's an inherent part of the system that save or die spells exist. Phantasmal killer would have done the same, albeit with slightly lower succes rate. Heck, Hold Person would have done the same...

There's always the possibility of defeat unless your villains are arbitrarily immune to everything, so my general advice is to not let the players face anything without counting on the possibility of them defeating it (there's also an unpleasant railroadness about encounters players simply cannot win).

Best thing would have been to have a plan for what would happen if the players defeated him before the kidnapping. Maybe you could then still have kept essentially the same quest, but have it be about finding out who was behind the kidnapping attempt, rather than about rescuing the brother. And maybe the BBEG is outraged at the party when she learns they killed her henchman, and will act accordingly. And there could be a lot of challenge involved with securing adequate future protection for the brother. But having him arbitrarily kidnapped anyway despite the party genuinely stopping it by using wise tactics against a powerful henchman - as a player, I would have found that really frustrating.

[GoatBoy]

With a level 11 wizard, you're going to start seeing more of this sort of thing, with your carefully-crafted villainous NPC's only a single save away from death. Just wait until they can do it to multiple targets, or to a single target without even granting them a save.

Unfortunately, it's just a fact of life for games at your level.

[erikun]

How is this any different from failing a save against Phantasmal Killer, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Bestow Curse, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Magic Jar, Baleful Polymorph, Symbol of Persuasion, Circle of Death, or Disintegrate? Just to list the other options the wizard has available.

[Ernir]

This is an example of the following:
Save or Die/Lose effects. There are many spells in the game that completely remove a character from combat on a failed save, Flesh to Stone is not a uniquely troubling spell (at least not for this reason). Something like Baleful Polymorph, Dominate Person or Feeblemind would have had exactly the same (or worse) effect, and those are lower level spells.
Now, these aren't always even the strongest options on the spell list, due to how binary their effects are. But when they work, they work. And your players have reached a level where you're only going to start seeing more of these.
Solo NPCs are usually not very CR-efficient opponents. Most classes have few defensive capabilities, no way to deal with the action advantage of multiple player characters... and as you have noticed, if something goes wrong for them, they are screwed.
Planning for the players to fail in battle. Really, once battle begins, **** happens. Sometimes an easy encounter turns into a TPK, and sometimes the Ubermonster dies before it gets to act. If you plan, don't plan for just one possible outcome.

[Myth]

The one thing I can say is don't play so that your NPC's "win" and the party "loses". You are the DM. The party are as much part of your world as the NPCs. It's not you vs. them it's them in the world to do the things they want and you are the tool to bring this world to life and enforce it's rules.

If they start flinging SoDs around though you are allowed to fling them back. But don't send a Banhsee at them to TPK them because that's a SoD effect. Be level appropriate.

[Cwymbran-San]

So, we have a level 17 swordsage on a mission for his evil mistress, and he is not prepared for the hazards such an enterprise may bring?
No defenses, no maneuvers readied that allow a Concentration insted of a saving throw? Even without CON adjustment, a lv17 Swordsage should have maxed Concentration to 20 ranks, which means failing the first save i nigh impossible.
What about his equipment? No Cloak of Resistance? No ring of Spellturning? The latter would have sent a message to the PCs not to even try anything magical.
And, seriously, a lv 17 working ALONE? Nigh impossible. At least have some buddise around to cover his retreat, a handful of lv7 rogues with crossbows should do.
Yes, he may still fail, but if i were in his situation, with a mistress on the verge of divine ascension, i would prepare the hell out to guarantee success. At last, if i fail, i need not even come back to home base, she would blast me to pieces, evil witch that she is.
So, punchline: preparation, preparation, preparation. Your PCs do it, why should the NPC not?

[Lonely Tylenol]

As a 7th-level Wizard, the party I was in once stepped into a Yuan-Ti castle (yes, it was a pre-made adventure, and no, I can't recall which) that had a cleric who had animated the bones of a tyrannosaurus rex. The Cleric was level 5 (and was individually not that much of a threat), just barely high enough to even have a skeletal T-Rex fall under its Hit Dice cap (and definitely not under its limit for a single Animate Dead casting), but the thing itself was a beast. It was... Well... A skeletal T-Rex. Dominated the room, with an attack bonus that made the AC of everyone in the party look like crap... You name it.

So in the first round of initiative, I cast Command Undead on the thing. Second-level spell, learned it from a spellbook that the DM threw at us from an enemy NPC wizard just one session before, no save to avoid T-Rex dance party.

Next round, at my command, the skeletal T-Rex ate his former master (who failed his rebuke check on his own initiative, and then cowered in a corner until he was devoured alive).

Instead of the sense of accomplishment that I should have felt for my stroke of ingenuity and proper planning, I got a heated argument laden with one-upsmanship and accusations of powergaming and no you can't ride the T-Rex through my castle! that wound up being the first of a chain of events that led me to quit that campaign outright (probably throwing a wrench into the DM's "The Chosen One (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne)" plot).

The point being: Sometimes the PCs do something unexpected: find a loophole in your plans, a flashing red button on the back of your Big Bad, or maybe just a truly ingenious solution to an otherwise impossible-looking dilemma. Sometimes, as a result of this inventiveness, the plans fail (or at least go horribly awry), your Big Bad kicks the bucket, and the PCs are treated as brilliant for... Well... Doing something brilliant.

Knowing this, are you going to ban Command Undead so you can keep your PCs on the rails?

EDIT: By the way, just a note: If I was in this party, the Warblade would have used Mountain Hammer on the Swordsage until he was dust in the wind, but if they didn't, Flesh to Stone has a counterpart in Stone to Flesh, which would allow him to reoccur if you were so attached to him. I still wouldn't have undermined their victory on account of it.

EDIT II: It should be noted that, on the DM side of things, I've been on the flip side of this dilemma as well; in fact, my last such failing is well-documented (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231605). Sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches.

[Telok]

Flesh to Stone is not a problem.

Stone to Flesh, the right Craft skill, and a deranged sense of humor are a problem.

But it is only when the character starts indulging in Flesh to Stone / Stone Shape / Stone to Flesh perversions that you will need to drop the hammer on him.

[Myth]

Any DM referring to a piece of the world as "MY x" like "My castle" needs serious training on what it means to run a RPG.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Any DM referring to a piece of the world as "MY x" like "My castle" needs serious training on what it means to run a RPG.

I can't guarantee that any of that was quoted verbatim (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, hence the lack of quotation marks; I simply don't remember the exchange word-for-word), so I wouldn't place too much importance on my use of "my". Still, the general ideas are all the same.

[Killer Angel]

That's not really a particular issue with flesh to stone, it's an inherent part of the system that save or die spells exist. Phantasmal killer would have done the same, albeit with slightly lower succes rate. Heck, Hold Person would have done the same...


The issue is that the players tend to do things that sometime ruin the DM's plan. The DM should roll with it.

I could post so many links... well, I'll pick this (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0014.html). :smalltongue:

[Lonely Tylenol]

The issue is that the players tend to do things that sometime ruin the DM's plan. The DM should roll with it.

I could post so many links... well, I'll pick this (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0014.html). :smalltongue:

I might have picked this (http://shawntionary.com/chainmailbikini/?p=135), given the circumstances, but I like yours. I think I'll read it for awhile instead of doing anything productive at all. :smallwink:

[NinjaStylerobot]

Here is my idea: Have it do 10 dexterity drain. it can only be removed with flesh to stone.

Its very deadly but not an insta kill.

[Xyk]

Well, I didn't expect to find 12 people criticizing my DMing. I usually DM lower-level games because there's less of this instant game-wrecking nonsense. I expected (incorrectly) for the NPC to get more than zero turns in the combat for the very crucial part of the campaign. This was, in fact, the opening to this part of the story. The party had never heard of the Sky Queen or anything until this point, and it really had to go down.

It also makes sense for a powerful near-god to have more than one henchman, and to value particularly powerful ones with jobs critical to their ascension to godhood enough to notice when they go missing and send someone after them. In my worlds, things happen around the PCs on a set schedule which reacts appropriately to their actions. The kidnappings must go on schedule (according to the main villain) or the ascension might not work. The rescue functions as a display of the villain's power as well as a rescue. The new NPC is now fully fleshed out and has a job of her own.

Probably not my best work, but it functions.

[Killer Angel]

Well, I didn't expect to find 12 people criticizing my DMing.

I apologize, but it was perfect for a link to Darths and Droids. :smallwink:


It also makes sense for a powerful near-god to have more than one henchman, and to value particularly powerful ones with jobs critical to their ascension to godhood enough to notice when they go missing and send someone after them

Yep, it certainly makes sense. It's only disappointing that you had to invent it out of nothing, instead of planning it for such an inconvenience.

[Psyren]

The issue is that the players tend to do things that sometime ruin the DM's plan. The DM should roll with it.

I could post so many links... well, I'll pick this (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0014.html). :smalltongue:

Or this. (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0041.html) Or this. (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0240.html) :smallwink:

[DwarfFighter]

But that was awful! I hate changing the villain's setup halfway through because it disturbs verisimilitude, but I saw no other option here.


IMHO, it was a truly awful call. The party managed to beat your henchman you send alone, and you just created another henchman on the fly so the party's victory was meaningless?
Speaking about railroading...


I don't think "meaningless" is the right word here: The PCs have won the first round and will likely be rewarded with xp! However, it is clear that the evil overlord has a lot riding on this so it is quite appropriate for him to make a second attempt.

The underlying challenge here is that players strive for their characters to succeed in every challenge, while the occasional set-back makes for good drama. So the GM may want to enforce a set-back in spite of the players' ingenuity and their character's abilities and other resources.

Pro tip: As the GM you should never hinge critical plot development on the assumption that the players will fail. You basically have three options:

1. Keep up the pressure!
Use a series of tough encounters until the PCs do fail. This requires a lot more preparation, though, and may cause players to feel you are out to "get them" rather than attempting to advance the story.


2. Cut-scene!
Rather than allowing for player simply present the events as a narrative. This is probably the most powerful tool in your GM's toolbox. The drawback should be obvious to everyone: Players hate being told what their characters are doing and how they react!

The obvious solution is to run the cut-scene as something outside the PCs. You need the PC's brother to be kidnapped? Do it while the PC is out of town! If you want some drama, write down a short narrative of what happens and read it to the PCs: "Meanwhile, back at the mansion..."

3. Victory = failure!
Harder to achieve, and likely to sow distrust between the players and the game world is for the evil overlord to manipulate the PCs into working for him. There's always the risk that the PCs may get tired of everyone that gives them a task eventually turns out to be working for the evil overlord.

[Engine]

I don't think "meaningless" is the right word here: The PCs have won the first round and will likely be rewarded with xp! However, it is clear that the evil overlord has a lot riding on this so it is quite appropriate for him to make a second attempt.

To me, it's meaningless.
The DM wanted a specific outcome, the players overcame the challenge, the DM changed plans on the fly so the desired outcome occured nonetheless. Sometimes the players will be able to overcome challenges with luck, or ingenuity. A DM should roll with that instead of forcing the plot onto the PCs.

[Z3ro]

To me, it's meaningless.
The DM wanted a specific outcome, the players overcame the challenge, the DM changed plans on the fly so the desired outcome occured nonetheless. Sometimes the players will be able to overcome challenges with luck, or ingenuity. A DM should roll with that instead of forcing the plot onto the PCs.

How is the DM's handling of the situation not rolling with it? The PCs defeated an encounter (which they'll presumably get XP for). IMHO, having a second henchman resuce the first was a great way to address the complete explosion of the DM's plot, along with punishing careless players.

How is inventing a new NPC bad? For all the party knew, more than one NPC were sent on the mission to begin with. As several people have already pointed out, sending a single high-level minion is usually not a great idea. To the DM, I commend you on your ability to adapt to the situation and still propel your plot forward.

[Maphreal]

To me, it's meaningless.
The DM wanted a specific outcome, the players overcame the challenge, the DM changed plans on the fly so the desired outcome occured nonetheless. Sometimes the players will be able to overcome challenges with luck, or ingenuity. A DM should roll with that instead of forcing the plot onto the PCs.

Agreed. For every NPC I've got that may cross swords with the party, I've got plans on what happens if they are or aren't defeated. On top of that, my major storylines aren't set in stone, I've got ideas of what will happen in case of X or Y, but with my eccentric parties, improvisation is a much needed tool.

[Totally Guy]

1. Keep up the pressure!
Use a series of tough encounters until the PCs do fail. This requires a lot more preparation, though, and may cause players to feel you are out to "get them" rather than attempting to advance the story.


2. Cut-scene!
Rather than allowing for player simply present the events as a narrative. This is probably the most powerful tool in your GM's toolbox. The drawback should be obvious to everyone: Players hate being told what their characters are doing and how they react!

The obvious solution is to run the cut-scene as something outside the PCs. You need the PC's brother to be kidnapped? Do it while the PC is out of town! If you want some drama, write down a short narrative of what happens and read it to the PCs: "Meanwhile, back at the mansion..."

3. Victory = failure!
Harder to achieve, and likely to sow distrust between the players and the game world is for the evil overlord to manipulate the PCs into working for him. There's always the risk that the PCs may get tired of everyone that gives them a task eventually turns out to be working for the evil overlord.

These are only ok if you've talked about it with the other players and found out they're cool with gaming in that way. I tend to not enjoy these techniques these days.

[Tyger]

While this has deviated somewhat from the OP's original intent, I think it is still relevant, based on the over-riding question of how to handle it when the PCs destroy the pre-made plot some DMs use.

While I am a firm advocate of the "roll-with-it" crowd, and generally make sure that my games and worlds are as fluid as I can possibly make it, I don't think it is fair to say that is the only way to play. Some DMs, and even some groups, prefer to play on the rails. There's nothing inherently wrong with such a playstyle, but it isn't my preferred one.

[prufock]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the way you improvised. Having a second line, a backup, a contingency - this is what the villains SHOULD do. There definitely should have been a rescue operation waiting in the wings if things went poorly.

However you should examine your attitude about it. As one of my players is fond of saying "No plan survives first contact with the enemy" (first attributed to von Moltke).

From this, you should be learning some things:
1. Single-enemy encounters are not generally the best precisely BECAUSE all it takes is one lucky or unlucky roll to end it. They have their place, and sure can be fun some times, but shouldn't be the norm.
2. Villains have second lines, backup plans, contingencies, cover, smokescreens, etc. At least the good ones do.
3. If an encounter is meant to be important and dramatic, make sure it's built that way. The players WILL do the unexpected, make the enemy durable. True, there's no armor effective against a natural 1, but there are ways to become nigh-invulnerable. Boost saves with items or feats, get DR or high AC, have some cheap items of x/day ignore certain conditions.
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) can give you some tips on how to do this.

I try my best not to craft plots FOR the PCs. I craft plots AROUND the PCs. "This is what happens if the PCs don't interfere." Then the PCs interfere, and improvise from there. Sometimes it's easy to predict what the PCs will do, but most of the time... not so much.

[Engine]

How is the DM's handling of the situation not rolling with it? The PCs defeated an encounter (which they'll presumably get XP for). IMHO, having a second henchman resuce the first was a great way to address the complete explosion of the DM's plot, along with punishing careless players.

How is inventing a new NPC bad? For all the party knew, more than one NPC were sent on the mission to begin with. As several people have already pointed out, sending a single high-level minion is usually not a great idea. To the DM, I commend you on your ability to adapt to the situation and still propel your plot forward.

I'm not saying that sending more henchmen is a bad idea. I'm saying that sending just one henchman, thinking she'll do the job without much trouble, and then creating on the fly a second one just because the party defeated the first, isn't that good. It's forcing a plot onto the PCs, IMHO.
If it was in the plan from the start, I would have nothing to argue. But that's not the case.

Anyway, we're derailing from the thread. I suggest if you want to discuss more about this to contact me through PM.


While I am a firm advocate of the "roll-with-it" crowd, and generally make sure that my games and worlds are as fluid as I can possibly make it, I don't think it is fair to say that is the only way to play. Some DMs, and even some groups, prefer to play on the rails. There's nothing inherently wrong with such a playstyle, but it isn't my preferred one.

You're right. I'm not saying that mine is the only valid opinion, never had that intention in mind. If others are fine with this kind of DMing, I'm fine too.

[Tyndmyr]

There's always the possibility of defeat unless your villains are arbitrarily immune to everything, so my general advice is to not let the players face anything without counting on the possibility of them defeating it (there's also an unpleasant railroadness about encounters players simply cannot win).

This. Sometimes rolls will go against you. Backup plans are always awesome.

[Amphetryon]

IMHO, it was a truly awful call. The party managed to beat your henchman you send alone, and you just created another henchman on the fly so the party's victory was meaningless?
Speaking about railroading...

Anyway, it's simple to deal with Flesh to Stone. Immunity.
Construct are immune, there are some spells that give you immunity to petrification and there's always Stone to Flesh. Flesh to Stone is a SoD spell, and SoD spell most of the times aren't that troublesome. Either they do something or they do nothing. Sure, if they do something, is most of the times something nasty. But if they do nothing, you just wasted a high level slot to accomplish, well, nothing.
Could you explain how giving your henchman immunity to a party's SoD spell (in this case Flesh to Stone) is somehow less railroading than adding a second henchman on the fly?

[Douglas]

Well, I didn't expect to find 12 people criticizing my DMing. I usually DM lower-level games because there's less of this instant game-wrecking nonsense. I expected (incorrectly) for the NPC to get more than zero turns in the combat for the very crucial part of the campaign. This was, in fact, the opening to this part of the story. The party had never heard of the Sky Queen or anything until this point, and it really had to go down.

It also makes sense for a powerful near-god to have more than one henchman, and to value particularly powerful ones with jobs critical to their ascension to godhood enough to notice when they go missing and send someone after them. In my worlds, things happen around the PCs on a set schedule which reacts appropriately to their actions. The kidnappings must go on schedule (according to the main villain) or the ascension might not work. The rescue functions as a display of the villain's power as well as a rescue. The new NPC is now fully fleshed out and has a job of her own.

Probably not my best work, but it functions.
Your solution works and makes a high degree of sense, and I get that this event was important to your plot, but the fact remains that you negated a PC victory by after-the-fact DM fiat. Both doing so and getting into a situation where it was needed are signs of poor DMing.

A major principle of DMing is that the PCs WILL throw monkey wrenches into your plans. If your script calls for them to be defeated, you should have plans ready for if they win instead. If your plot really does require their defeat, then do your best to make absolutely certain it's inevitable. A solo opponent one failed saving throw away from death is far short of that, even if he'll only ever fail on a 1. And if you do go to such an extreme, be nice and plan a possible reward for if the PCs perform better than expected before losing. Also, be prepared for unhappy players.

[Tyndmyr]

Could you explain how giving your henchman immunity to a party's SoD spell (in this case Flesh to Stone) is somehow less railroading than adding a second henchman on the fly?

Both, if done after the fact, are pretty railroady. The immunity, probably more so.

However, if immunity happened as part of a logically prepared set of defenses, it's a reasonable option. Not the only such option, and I would not expect everything to be immune to petrification, but that or boosted saves might well come up.

[Tiki Snakes]

Some thoughts;
Firstly, you dropped the ball a little in some senses. But that's okay, having a secondary NPC rescue the failed leutenant is fine, not a problem at all in and of itself. It's a shame that you hadn't already planned for that, but it's a good save.

The error was having a point of conflict that had to specifically go only one way. The NPC HAD to win/escape or the plot stalls. It would be just as much a weakpoint in the Campaign if it was an encounter the PC's absolutely HAD to win/escape from/etc or the plot stalls. Any situation involving dice could, through no fault of the people involved, go either way at any time.

Now, you've had a secondary NPC save the first and the BBEG's bacon. An important thing here is that it's worth remembering that the NPC failed. There should be consequences.
Some suggestions; The NPC in question will be 'rewarded for their failure'. Perhaps he is killed and raised a powerful mindless undead and given to the secondary NPC to command. Perhaps he is given one chance to redeem himself and must destroy the party or face a fate worse than death (leading to him confronting them alone a second time, utterly desperate, or accompanied by a number of disposable mooks).
Perhaps the second NPC ISN'T merely another servant of the BBEG. Perhaps they stepped in to save the statue and the goddess's plans for reasons of their own. Either the assistance might come at a price, or the two have not been returned to the Goddess but rather taken to the Sorceresses own stronghold for her own diabolical plans.

Perhaps there is a way this development could hinder the BBEG's plans without destroying the plot. That way, you haven't simply taken a victory away from the players, but neither do you have to throw away all your existing plans entirely.

[Suddo]

Did your Wizard have that as a left over spell from the previous day? Did he use a spell? Waking up and jumping into action isn't what the wizard does normally. This is the natural flaw in 1 vs many. Its either the one destroys the many or the many destroy him. Its like rocket tag but for different reasons that wiz v wiz. If it was me I would have given him a item for a free re-roll (or two), some immunity stuff (making him a construct would help) and maybe some defensive spells. He just came from someone who is almost a god the least he could get is some buffs.

[Flickerdart]

If I were a ninja going on an undercover in-and-out mission, I would definitely have a caster hanging around to pull me out if anything goes haywire.

[Engine]

Could you explain how giving your henchman immunity to a party's SoD spell (in this case Flesh to Stone) is somehow less railroading than adding a second henchman on the fly?

I sent you a PM. Sorry, but I feel I'm derailing the thread and I do not wish that, the OP deserves answers on his questions.

[ericgrau]

The way to deal with SoDs is the law of averages. With typical monster saves and sometimes immunities they have a pretty lousy chance of working, but one lucky shot and everything can go to pieces. Never send someone alone, always have one or preferably multiple other people ready to save him when he dies to a low roll. On average SoDs suck and won't work against multiple foes, but against one all it takes is one lucky roll to defy the average and tank your plot. Especially when the foe is gloating and the PCs don't have to be afraid to take a wild chance.

NPCs have additional issues in that they tend to have lower saves and AC than monsters, especially as levels get higher. Monster saves scale at 1 per level, NPCs 1/2 or 1/3 per level plus bonuses from items which are less than PC gear. The average CR 17 monster has a +20 fort save and half a dozen immunities. Try to get defenses to make up for this if you can. I think ToB has save replacing abilities you could consider.

If it was a legitimate well thought out victory and not blind luck and the unknown drawbacks of NPCs, I'd see it as unfair for taking away the PC's victory. I don't think it's railroading to correct bad luck and a DM mistake. Though next time the DM should know better and plan accordingly.

[imneuromancer]

<snip> Then the wizard casts Flesh to Stone. The swordsage fails his save (we roll all rolls publicly and honestly).

That ruined my entire plot! <snip>

Welcome to high level D&D, where the spells are powerful and the saves don't matter!

At that level, you are inevitably going to have save-or-die type spells that will, with a bad roll, essentially kill anything. The same goes for your PCs as well: one bad save can kill someone, and one bad round can TPK.

[Phaederkiel]

I had the opposite: made a swordsage / master of nine who spend many resources on knowing a lot about the pcs. When he confronted them, he was tied to a tree and looked like another hostage to rescue. He had the anticharge maneuver and the save-replacers.


boy were the players pissed that i gave them a npc that felt like he was built especially against them.

I made them find a letter from which they now know that the villain has found out about the main tanks mineral warrior template and bought adamantine weapons. They were not happy about it.

[Mikeavelli]

I had the opposite: made a swordsage / master of nine who spend many resources on knowing a lot about the pcs. When he confronted them, he was tied to a tree and looked like another hostage to rescue. He had the anticharge maneuver and the save-replacers.


boy were the players pissed that i gave them a npc that felt like he was built especially against them.

I made them find a letter from which they now know that the villain has found out about the main tanks mineral warrior template and bought adamantine weapons. They were not happy about it.

Once the players get to a high enough level to have specific strengths and weaknesses, they're generally famous enough that people have heard about them!

As a general rule, recurring villains or established enemies will know about the PC's, and come specially equipped to deal with their strengths and weaknesses. If/when they complain, I just point out how they've been learning about their enemies for a while now, and inevitably come prepared to deal with exactly what those enemies are capable of throwing out.

[Phaederkiel]

yes yes. I even gave them distinct clues (which they understood in hindsight) that they were watched.

[pwykersotz]

In answer to your question, the solution tends to be planning. As the GM, you know what magic items/spells/everything else the party has access to. If you want a big dramatic confrontation, maybe an Anti-magic field would have been the answer. Regardless, like others have mentioned, Save-or-Die spells are part of the game at that level. I know that if I were in a world like this and had chosen the path of adventurer, I would definitely take every step I could to prevent them from taking me out. Perhaps a contingent resurrection or rings of immunity.

But onto the second point that the thread brought up, I don't think there was necessarily anything wrong with your DM style. In my not so humble opinion, it's only railroading if the PC's realize it. Plus, the most important part is this: if you don't have a story, there's no game. There is no problem or shame in needing to "salvage" your plot so the game can continue, it happens sometimes. Some people hate that type of playstyle, but I reiterate...if the PC's don't realize it's happening, there's no issue.

[DeAnno]

A level 17 Swordsage that goes into a combat situation with a Wizard that didn't prepare Mind Over Body (or whatever the Conc-> Fort is called) is pretty silly :smallsmile:

20 ranks along with at least a bit in miscellaneous extra mods should make it physically impossible to fail that save (Wizard's best practical save DC is probably 25 or so). In addition to that, there are certain items all high level PCs should have with no exceptions, and one is a 25,000 gc +5 Vest/Cloak of Resistance. Even without the maneuver, and completely straight classed, 5 base + ~2 con + 5 resistance is 12 right there, and that's before a friendly low level Cleric buffs him with Conviction for another 2-3 (if an NPC is coming from a big villainous organization on a quick strike mission, it is usually prudent to assume he's getting at least a fair selection of normal buffs from casters half his level).

Granted, this is only going to end up in the +15 region or so (being straight classed tends to result in really mediocre saves), but that's still a ~50% chance of saving even after his maneuver is used.

[Dsurion]

Welcome to high level D&D, where the spells are powerful and the saves don't matter!I see what you did there :smalltongue:

[Ramza00]

It could be worse, your player could be using Flesh to Ice instead of Flesh to Stone (pretty much the same spell but 1 level lower).

[Tyndmyr]

Once the players get to a high enough level to have specific strengths and weaknesses, they're generally famous enough that people have heard about them!

To me, this mostly depends on how the players act. If they roll into town, gleefully bash their problems into submission using all their abilities, and boast about their prowness...well yeah, people are gonna know that stuff.

But the people who are cautious, who keep abilities in reserve, etc...they have surprises to fall back upon.

[Slipperychicken]

I expected (incorrectly) for the NPC to get more than zero turns in the combat for the very crucial part of the campaign.

Perhaps the Queen will learn from the costs of her arrogance not to underestimate her foes, and to send her henchmen in teams all at once, buffing them properly beforehand (immunities, save-boosters, offensive buffs), and making sure the PCs are properly distracted or otherwise unavailable.


You could have had him Iron Heart Surge the petrification. Not RAW (can't take actions), but capital-A awesome to see him burst free of the stone with a surge of confidence.

[Venger]

You could have had him Iron Heart Surge the petrification. Not RAW (can't take actions), but capital-A awesome to see him burst free of the stone with a surge of confidence.

while it is indeed true that it's not RAW because he can't take actions, IHS, like all martial maneuvers requires that you be able to move, so using it to cure petrification, paralysis, etc, is a no-go.

that would be awesome though, it'd be like "gargoyles"

[Cwymbran-San]

Erm...does'nt Iron Heart Surge require you to have a few Iron Heart maneuvers anyway? I might be wrong, but since when can swordsages access Iron Heart? I thought they could not?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Erm...does'nt Iron Heart Surge require you to have a few Iron Heart maneuvers anyway? I might be wrong, but since when can swordsages access Iron Heart? I thought they could not?

Martial Study (Wall of Blades or Steel Wind) into Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge) isn't exactly a wasted feat chain, though.

[Red_Dog]

Or this. (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0041.html) Or this. (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0240.html) :smallwink:

I prefer the Original Gangsters myself ^^ =>
http://shamusyoung.mu.nu/images/comic_lotr137.jpg

Anyways, with THAt out of the way.

Build NPCs better. Sorry to sound condescending. But it is really as simple as that =\. Yes its harder than pre-genning and etc. But that's just it. D&D expects like what 4-5 encounters per Session? That means packs of NPCs being turned to stone/insta killed and etc. so the last wave may give the PCs a challenge. And that's without Wizards just remaking reality and *very bad words* your hole universe. If flesh to stone is an Issue, what ever will you do with Limited wish? Or proper use of Grease?

Here are some advises I just posted on the other thread.
If the NPC is an intelligent antagonist that likes planning, than think of ways that he/she could have foreseen this event. Contingency spells, pre-buffing, support cast to wither and tier the PCs, Being build with coveed saves[Int to reflex, or Charisma to will thru feats are easy starts for a Wizard or a Sorc], Tactical Advantage(surprise, distance, using right attack to attack weakest points) and similar things should mitigate the usual "Agrrr! God Damn ONCES!?!!".

If the NPC is a brute, just try to not have to many gaping holes in his/her defense. Saves can be easily boosted. 2 feat Combo [Endurance & Steadfast Determination] will give Con mod to Will Saves and prevent 1s on Fort[as in, you can NOT autofail fort save]. Iron Will & Indomitable Soul combo let you roll 2d20 and pick the highest for will. Right equipment helps too. Armor augmenting Crystals can be shoved into rings of deflection[as far as I know] and provide cheap boost to saves in question.

Than of course there are Luck Feats from Complete Scoundrel for anyone really who can afford them/wants them. For an NPC they can be quite a nice investment as they won't be using them that often ^^.

There also an Option to run a SandBox. This however requires 1000% more effort. But on a plus side, NO matter what PCs do, it makes sense by ze default. Kill a boss with lucky save? Great! There are still 10 others and now they all know that you are so powerful, and they will prep better.

P.S. All jokes and silliness aside, good luck. Having Tier 1 player is DIFFICULT. It just is. Encourage your players to use Tier 3s[be ware that they too have Save or Die and even No Save, JUST DIE].

Good Luck! ^^

[Fitz10019]

Players: DM's Nightmare?


...if you don't have a story, there's no game. There is no problem or shame in needing to "salvage" your plot so the game can continue, it happens sometimes. Some people hate that type of playstyle, but I reiterate...if the PC's don't realize it's happening, there's no issue.

This is a valid point. Sometimes you do need to protect your plot. And if you're players don't realize that you've railroaded them, it's like rolling a 20 on a bluff check. Proceed with benefiting from your luck, but realize it was luck.

The next time your plot is assassinated, resist the urge to fix it immediately. Let it die. Fix it later -- come up with a solution (preferably the NPC's reaction to what the PCs did, not something retroactive) between the sessions.

[On the other hand, I sometimes find my NPC is supposed to be smarter than I am, and I need a little help to bridge the gap! This (the kidnapper would have had backup) is a bit of that, arguably.]

Realistically, the party would investigate the attempted kidnapping with as much energy as a successful kidnapping. It's probably a bigger challenge, because there's no trail to follow, no divining the missing person's location, etc.