TWF Warblade advice

[GodGoblin]

Hey guys im currently building a Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Warblade19 Gladiator style character focusing on Tiger Claw and TWF.

Just wondering is it worth investing in the TWF feat tree with this guy or just using the Tiger Claw manuevers that emulate it? Are there certain pros/cons to either option?

Thanks in advance!

[SilverLeaf167]

One big downside with the Tiger Claw maneuvers is that while TWF-ers usually rely on multiple attacks for damage, the maneuvers don't scale: they always only make two attacks. On the other hand, they don't eat up your feats, but they also can't be used at the end of a charge and make you waste your limited amount of maneuvers known. The usual upside is that they can be used as standard actions (Wolf Fang Strike specifically).

The TWF feats, as mentioned, take up a lot of feats, but even if you only take the first feat of the chain, that still gets you an extra attack at higher levels, while Wolf Fang Strike always limits you to two.

So, given that you are getting Pounce anyway and wouldn't benefit that much from being able to use both weapons as a standard action, I'd recommend going with the feats, depending on how many feat slots you have free.

EDIT: I would recommend picking up Raging Mongoose though, if you ever get to that level. It scales quite well; or rather, doesn't need to, as it just gives you extra attacks on top of your basic routine.

[GodGoblin]

Awesome couldnt have asked for a better answer! Thanks, will go with the feat tree then it seems so better reeeally pump that Dex.

I havent made many TWF based characters before if im honest so what other feats would be of use?

Also im looking to make this a utility style fighter so Disarming is a tactic im looking into using and maybe Bullrush, trip etc but to a much lesser extent. How does Disarm mesh with TWF if at all?

[SilverLeaf167]

Disarming doesn't work too well with TWF, as it requires yet another feat to do effectively and light/1h weapons are strictly worse at the roll than 2h weapons. Disarming in general also isn't too great, as the only targets you'd really want to disarm (enemy bosses) are most likely quite resistant to it and weaker enemies could just be killed outright rather than disabled.

Obviously, you would want Weapon Finesse for DEX to attack rolls, and if you somehow have space for a Shadow Hand stance (gained from a Swordsage dip, maybe?), the Shadow Blade feat (ToB) for DEX to damage. I'm not sure about feats beyond that, though, but you probably won't have too many slots to spare anyway.

Though not a feat, the Whirling Frenzy alternate class feature (Unearthed Arcana) changes your Rage to give an extra attack, an AC bonus and a Reflex save bonus, but you lose the CON and Will save boni. It might work quite well for a TWF Barbarian, as you're going to rely on some kind of bonus damage anyway and would benefit from extra attacks to deal that bonus damage multiple times.

Actually, what do you intend to use for bonus damage? Skirmish might actually work quite well, given that you have an easy way to move around between full attacks, but that would require you to take quite a few levels of Scout to be effective.

[GodGoblin]

Whirling Frenzy is the variant im using anyway, The reason I was thinking if Disarm is to use my one of my attacks to disarm and my other (From Whirling Frenzy) to attack for damage.


As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand.

Emphasis mine, assuming it can be done as part of a full attack sequence.

Thinking about it now this wouldnt work with TWF as its a full round action. The more I think about it the more im liking making this a shield based build. Would be rather fun even though I know its very feat itensive, but fits with a Gladiator image and is a style of play I havent used before.

This is the only handbooky thing I can find on shield combat yet, D&D wiki sadly :smallannoyed: But by Dictum Mortum apparantly so should be fairly sound.

Shield Offense Style

Overview
Strength important
Two weapon fighting penalties
Feats

Improved Shield Bash (PHB): Retain your shield bonus to AC when shield bashing.
Shield Charge (CW): If you hit with a shield as part of a charge action, make a free trip attack. You don't provoke attacks of opportunity and your opponent can't trip you. Nice if you are going this way.
Shield Slam (CW): Nice feat, but you get only one attack. The difficulty class is good, but not all opponents are likely to be dazed.
Shield Sling (PHB II): Nice feat if you want to use your shield as a thrown weapon. In addition you can make a trip attack with your shield.
Agile Shield Fighter (PHB II): Get lesser penalties for fighting with two weapons when combining armed strikes and shield bash.
Blood Spiked Charger (PHB II): It has some not so hot maneuvers. It requires two weapon focuses though, so i would be reluctant to get this.

Shield Defense Style

Overview
Dexterity 13
Use of one handed weapon. You will probably need exotic weapon proficiency to get a weapon that is worth it.
Great defensive capabilities
Feats

Phalanx Fighting (CW): Nice if you use it with your allies. Otherwise don't bother.
Shield Specialization (PHB II): Improve the shield bonus to AC for a particular type of shields.
Shield Ward (PHB II): Add shield bonus to your touch AC and checks to resist various attack modes (trip, bull rush, grapple, etc).
Shield Block (HoB): Deflect arrows once per round.
Shield Wall (HoB): Gain shield bonus when adjacent a shield wielder.
Parrying Shield (LoM): Shield ward is strictly better, but requires two feats to enter.

[Urpriest]

Disarming is really hard to optimize properly, but luckily as a Warblade you don't need to ever use the base mechanic because you have several maneuvers (most notably Exorcism of Steel) that disarm using maneuver mechanics and (IIRC) don't care about things like the size of your weapon.

[Person_Man]

Pro: Lots of attacks, giving you lots of opportunities to trigger special effects triggered by attacks (Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, magical weapon properties, Feat abilities, etc).

Con: Overall damage tends to be lower compared to using a two handed weapon with the standard Power Attack feats. Requires that you be Dex based. Requires a large Feat investment.

Regardless of which choice you make, I would also suggest dumping the Barbarian level and going Warblade 20 instead. The capstone from Warblade is much better then Pounce + Rage. You can get Pounce from a variety of different items and maneuvers, and the To-Hit penalty from Whirling Frenzy (or any -X ability/feat) ends up decreasing your expected damage per round, because the net negative of the penalty on 7+ attacks outweighs the net positive of gaining one additional attack.

[GodGoblin]

Great advice guys! Im happy to drop barb now as the pounce was mainly for the TWF, for this guy I am really looking into bullrush/trip/disarm and I think just being a Warblade should cover the damage output problem (My group is mid-low op, we aim for 'Fun and effective').

Looking over all the shield feats it gets a bit daunting, what ones would you suggest for this style character focusing on combat manuevers?

Edit: Just saw Ur Priests comments, ah that sounds pretty good hopefully allowing me to drop improved Disarm from the feat list :smallbiggrin: