The skillful cleric

[Kaeso]

Hey there playground,

Before you throw me to death with builds (not that they're not welcome :smallamused:), I know the basics of how to make a skillful cleric. You take a cloistered cleric, slap the trickery domain on him and voilà. However, if I would play such a character, my problem would be that I wouldn't know how to roleplay him/her. It's obvious that your regular cleric is the crusader/paladin/guardian type, and that the cloistered cleric is the more reclusive, scholarly type of clergyman. However, I can't imagine a trickster-ish clergyman (probablyly because they don't exist and have never existed in real life?), so can any of you give me some ideas on how to roleplay this kind of PC?

[rmg22893]

Perhaps like Shepherd Book from Firefly? Biggest undercover badass ever.

[Kaeso]

Perhaps like Shepherd Book from Firefly? Biggest undercover badass ever.

That would fit deities like Nerull, but Boccob, Erythnul, Garl Glittergold, Olidammara and Nerull are the only deities that offer the trickster domain, and most of those require you to be chaotic good, which is more trickster-y than undercover-y IMHO. I guess that's why it's so hard for me to imagine a cleric (which I associate with a stoic, ascetic, lawful life of discipline, wether he's a traditional crusaderish cleric or a scholarly cloistered cleric) with the trickery domain (which demands the exact opposite).

[Godskook]

probablyly because they don't exist and have never existed in real life?

Hahahahaha, that's funny. As someone raised in churches, I can assure you that clergy are just as diverse as everyone else(but let's not dwell there cause its too close to verboden topics).

More to the point, D&D religion and deities are *FAR* different than what you see in most hollywood settings. When your deity literally embodies the concept of trickery, prankish behavior is practically required to be a follower, let alone a clergy. A closer analog would be fan clubs, rather than churches. Emulation would be the highest form of piety.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember that D&D has more deities than in the PHB...

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=List_of_Greyhawk_deities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_deities

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Deities

http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Deities

[Namfuak]

If you don't mind not having a deity, you could roleplay him as being a roguish wizard who happens to mostly use divine spells. Or if you follow a God, see what he tends to do when he is taking action against other Gods and emulate him when you take action against other beings.

[Piggy Knowles]

Here's some basic ideas as to how the flavor might work...

Olidammara:


The coin hit the bartop and wobbled before finally settling on one side. The Emperor's face, stamped in copper, stared up at the pair. Gareth winked and raised his glass.

"That's three in a row, my friend," he said. "Care to continue trying your luck?"

Robert grunted. "S'pose it was foolish to think I could beat one of Olidammara's chosen in a game of luck," he said. "Very well then, the next round is on me."

Gareth grinned and leaned back against the bar. He knew soon enough, it would be time to resume his travels, his wandering. And with that wandering came danger - his last journey had not been short on peril. But here, he felt at home.

Oh, true, he had never set foot in this particular tavern before. But it did not matter much. All such places were blessed by the Laughing Rogue. Outsiders to his faith always seemed taken aback at how few and far between Olidammara's temples and shrines were, but Gareth knew better. He knew that the greatest shrine to his God was not built of stone or wood, but rather of drink and song. He knew that a temple of Olidammara could be anywhere that men gathered and were merry.

Boccob:


The guards walked by once more, and Talya melted into the shadows. She grasped the pentagon hanging around her neck and, holding her breath, stole forward into the Senator's library.

And what a library it was! Books stacked floor to ceiling, old books with the leather bindings worn almost to dust. Books written in every language imaginable, even some that Talya did not recognize. She ran her fingers over the spines of those on the shelf closest to her, and began thinking of a prayer that would tell her on which shelf to look first.

The magic would take some time, and so she instead began with another prayer, one that would erase her from sight. Such magic came easily to her, flowing out of the uncaring, all-seeing Eye of Boccob. Shrouded in invisibility, Talya began her divination.

When the answer came, it was cryptic, and yielded no immediate clues. Boccob expected his priests to work for the knowledge they yearned, and would not simply hand over the answers to her. She began mulling the riddle over and over in her head, wondering what it could mean, and how it would direct her to where the Senator had hidden the Lost Scrolls of Datura.

In the meantime, she began helping herself to other great books, books of magic, books describing rituals so ancient that they had fallen completely out of memory. The Senator would be ill-pleased to see his library ransacked, but Talya relished the chance to further educate herself. After all, the Senator was a fool, who was collecting books merely for the sake of having them - a magpie, no scholar at all. She would use them to emulate her Lord Boccob, would become all-knowing, until like Boccob, she could see the whole of creation laid out before her...

[Laniius]

Hey there playground,

Before you throw me to death with builds (not that they're not welcome :smallamused:), I know the basics of how to make a skillful cleric. You take a cloistered cleric, slap the trickery domain on him and voilà. However, if I would play such a character, my problem would be that I wouldn't know how to roleplay him/her. It's obvious that your regular cleric is the crusader/paladin/guardian type, and that the cloistered cleric is the more reclusive, scholarly type of clergyman. However, I can't imagine a trickster-ish clergyman (probablyly because they don't exist and have never existed in real life?), so can any of you give me some ideas on how to roleplay this kind of PC?

Well, where does the cloistered cleric find the knowledge that he keeps? I play my skillful clerics as archaeolgists in the Indiana Jone vein.

[Tvtyrant]

Hahahahaha, that's funny. As someone raised in churches, I can assure you that clergy are just as diverse as everyone else(but let's not dwell there cause its too close to verboden vorboten topics).

More to the point, D&D religion and deities are *FAR* different than what you see in most hollywood settings. When your deity literally embodies the concept of trickery, prankish behavior is practically required to be a follower, let alone a clergy. A closer analog would be fan clubs, rather than churches. Emulation would be the highest form of piety.

I agree with this; Clergy would act different according to their gods.

[sonofzeal]

Hahahahaha, that's funny. As someone raised in churches, I can assure you that clergy are just as diverse as everyone else(but let's not dwell there cause its too close to verboden topics).

More to the point, D&D religion and deities are *FAR* different than what you see in most hollywood settings. When your deity literally embodies the concept of trickery, prankish behavior is practically required to be a follower, let alone a clergy. A closer analog would be fan clubs, rather than churches. Emulation would be the highest form of piety.
I will agree with this.

Many priests had former lives before taking the cloth, and may have brought an interesting set of skills with them. I personally know and am good friends with at least two who were hippie rock stars of varying renown back in the 60's, and both can still shred. One's very public about it and members of the band perform the weekly worship music, and the other generally restricts himself to background rhythm guitar work but can still let loose at private functions if sufficiently motivated.

Beyond that, I highly recommend the "Father Brown" series by G.K. Chesterton. It's a detective series staring a rather mousy priest, and is exquisitely written (as is anything by Chesterton, but I digress). In one of the earlier stories, Father Brown reveals that he knows a great much about thuggery and violence, though he lacks the physical strength to perform most of it - and that he gained this knowledge from years upon years of taking confessions from all the blaggards and scoundrels of his parish.

[Jeff the Green]

You might take a look at the first chapter of Complete Scoundrel. It has a bunch of examples of scoundrels (tricksters) of different alignments. Tricksters aren't necessarily jolly; for CG it gives the example of Mal Reynolds, Robin Hood, and Starbuck. I can definitely see a CG cleric of trickery going undercover to take down enemies of the people. It would be especially suitable for a cleric of Garl Glittergold.

[KoboldCleric]

Edit: silly question. Apparently you both typoed Verboten. You learn something new every day :)

[Lonely Tylenol]

I happen to be able tofthink of a real-world book that you might be able to use (http://principiadiscordia.com/) tonshape your ideaoof what a Chaotic Xrreligion might look like.

Hope itdhelps.

[ericgrau]

He's secluded and he has 3 of the biggest deception based skills. Worships a good of trickery. I'd say someone who likes to put on false identities and is uncomfortable showing his real identity too often.

If you wanted to take it to an extreme you could always be in disguise and change your personality whenever it suits you. Your "normal" might be your favorite disguise, never your real self. Deep down maybe you think your old closed up student self was too boring and you want to change that by putting on a grand act rather than making a genuine personality change.

[Feytalist]

It obviously depends on the type of deity your character will end up worshiping, but I was immediately reminded of the "Trickster" figure in mythology. Specifically, the West African figure of Ananse, the Spider, a figure who went around sneakily, hoarded information about everyone else and then used it against them. Associated with wisdom and trickery, just not the practical joke kind.

Now, someone like this doesn't need to be savage, or any kind of "ethnic". It's easy to translate this character into some sort of information broker and general shady type person.


And, of course, the old medieval monks of Europe (not the kung fu Eastern type) was well known for their troves of knowledge, and if you read up on that part of history you'll find that they were every bit as sneaky and devious as everyone else. In fact, some monasteries were hotbeds of intrigue, especially in times of war. Such a concept would be perfect for a tricksy cloistered cleric.

[Gwendol]

Look up Sun Wukong "Monkey King(?)" in Chinese folktales. There's a divine trickster for you!

[Killer Angel]

I know the basics of how to make a skillful cleric. You take a cloistered cleric, slap the trickery domain on him and voilà.

Don't forget Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a). :smalltongue:

[GoatBoy]

Depending on the skills, I'm imagining that a cleric with skills like Disable Device would be very technically minded and bookish, but having no real-world experience with applying his knowledge to anything but scholarly pursuits. "Skillful" doesn't always imply "roguish."

A stealthy cleric with bluff? Maybe he was trained in a very strict but somewhat aloof monastery, telling the monks that he was out of his bedchambers getting a drink, and sneaking past the guards with his fellow acolytes in order to undertake such sinful acts as IMBIBING SPIRITUOUS BEVERAGES and TALKING AND HOLDING HANDS WITH FEMALES. You little bastard. You're as chaotic evil as they come.

[Kaeso]

Thanks for all of the advice guys, you've given me some pretty nice ideas for skillful cleric roleplay. However, I think that they're pretty MAD, aren't they? They need good int for skills, good wis, good cha (for social skills and turn undead) and, if they wish to survive, they need good physical stats too. Doesn't this make them closer to the monk in MAD?

[Gavinfoxx]

Skillful Cleric?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

[Manateee]

Thanks for all of the advice guys, you've given me some pretty nice ideas for skillful cleric roleplay. However, I think that they're pretty MAD, aren't they? They need good int for skills, good wis, good cha (for social skills and turn undead) and, if they wish to survive, they need good physical stats too. Doesn't this make them closer to the monk in MAD?
This is exactly why MAD, as typically construed, is a useless concept.

The Cloistered Cleric has abilities keyed off every attribute. But its class features are powerful enough that it doesn't matter. So long as a Cloistered Cleric has a high enough Wisdom to cast spells, everything else is just a bonus.

Need to use a skill? Divine Insight. No Int/Dex required.
Need to beat something down? Divine Power/Righteous Might/Giant Size/Righteous Wrath/Knowledge Devotion work even without high Strength/Dex.
Need to stay standing? Superior Resistance and Conviction come cheap, and Heal is one Contingent Spell away. No extra-high Con required.
Need to shut enemies down? Control Spells/Summons/Dispels work as well as they always do. Even Wisdom doesn't have to be that high.

MAD is more a function of weak class features than it is of class features based on different abilities. The Cloistered Cleric is fine.

And w/r/t the OP, I played a Cloistered Cleric of a Law+Knowledge Deity like a cross between Batman and a bad crime novel villain once - scouring the seamy underbelly of the city, roughing up toughs in the back rooms of his parish, and claiming it was all in the name of justice.

[Kaeso]

This is exactly why MAD, as typically construed, is a useless concept.

The Cloistered Cleric has abilities keyed off every attribute. But its class features are powerful enough that it doesn't matter. So long as a Cloistered Cleric has a high enough Wisdom to cast spells, everything else is just a bonus.

Need to use a skill? Divine Insight. No Int/Dex required.
Need to beat something down? Divine Power/Righteous Might/Giant Size/Righteous Wrath/Knowledge Devotion work even without high Strength/Dex.
Need to stay standing? Superior Resistance and Conviction come cheap, and Heal is one Contingent Spell away. No extra-high Con required.
Need to shut enemies down? Control Spells/Summons/Dispels work as well as they always do. Even Wisdom doesn't have to be that high.

MAD is more a function of weak class features than it is of class features based on different abilities. The Cloistered Cleric is fine.

If that is true, one might wonder why you're playing a cloistered cleric to begin with, when you can do the same with a regular one :smallconfused:

[Rubik]

If that is true, one might wonder why you're playing a cloistered cleric to begin with, when you can do the same with a regular one :smallconfused:Skill points and an extra domain.

[Urpriest]

Skill points and an extra domain.

To elaborate, skill points are massively more important for skill users than ability scores. With 2 skill points per level you need a high int to be a decent skillmonkey (barring incarnates). With 6, you can cover most of what you need with just 10 Int.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If that is true, one might wonder why you're playing a cloistered cleric to begin with, when you can do the same with a regular one :smallconfused:

Because a Cloistered Cleric doesn't need INT to have Skill Points.

It's less MAD.

[ericgrau]

The worst thing you can do in such a "MAD" situation, and I see it all the time, is to say well I have these special abilities I should focus my ability scores on them. Like saying well I have skills I should focus int or cha. Nonononononononononononono. You are a caster who has skills on the side. Sweet, bonus! Don't tank your entire character just to support them though. A moderate int and cha is fine.

Same goes for other "MAD". Melee gets str, range dex and full casters their casting stat. Con is almost always the 2nd stat even on MAD; or at least the 3rd. Unless it's a melee/range divine caster or theurge, then it gets complicated but you still usually focus on one or the other. This should not change unless you want to run your main focus deep into the ground for the sake of "solving" MAD.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal
Many priests had former lives before taking the cloth, and may have brought an interesting set of skills with them.

For a priestly figure with hard experience in the wider world, it's hard to beat Cadfael (http://www.amazon.com/Morbid-Taste-Bones-Chronicle-Brother/dp/0446400157/), who was a mercenary and a crusader before he joined the monks of Shrewsbury. He would certainly fit the clever, cunning mold, given his knack for turning cloistered logic on its head in service of a greater good.


Originally Posted by sonofzeal
I personally know and am good friends with at least two who were hippie rock stars of varying renown back in the 60's, and both can still shred.

Funny enough, I know someone similar, although not quite so renowned. A reverend who jams in a couple groups and studies ethnomusicology on the side. :smalltongue:




Originally Posted by ericgrau
If you wanted to take it to an extreme you could always be in disguise and change your personality whenever it suits you. Your "normal" might be your favorite disguise, never your real self. Deep down maybe you think your old closed up student self was too boring and you want to change that by putting on a grand act rather than making a genuine personality change.

This is a great concept, and fits a couple people I know.

.
.

[sonofzeal]

For a priestly figure with hard experience in the wider world, it's hard to beat Cadfael (http://www.amazon.com/Morbid-Taste-Bones-Chronicle-Brother/dp/0446400157/), who was a mercenary and a crusader before he joined the monks of Shrewsbury. He would certainly fit the clever, cunning mold, given his knack for turning cloistered logic on its head in service of a greater good.
Interesting! I've never heard of it before, but it sounds like a good match with Father Brown.



Funny enough, I know someone similar, although not quite so renowned. A reverend who jams in a couple groups and studies ethnomusicology on the side. :smalltongue:
Feel free to PM me the contact information, I'm sure at least one of the two I know would be thrilled to make the contact! Just so you don't get the wrong impression, neither are particularly famous. I've heard one of their bands described as the biggest thing to come out of their state in the 60's... but mostly for lack of competition. He did manage to literally stop a riot though the power of Rock & Roll once, though.



Anyway, we're drifting off topic. Point is that there's a lot of ways to play a skillful Cleric without going trickster, just like there's a lot of ways to play a Rogue without going thief.

[Palanan]

I'm not that familiar with the Father Brown stories, but I think he would definitely have a lot in common with Cadfael.

And rereading the OP, I think both Father Brown and Cadfael would be excellent resources for the roleplaying that Kaeso is looking for. Very different characters, perhaps, but each would have something to offer a cloistered cleric, especially in terms of their perspective on the wider world.

In Cadfael's case, his worldly experience--while shocking to some of his fellow brothers--gives him a much broader understanding of human passions and foibles, which allows him not only to ferret out mysteries and deception, but also to treat even the guilty with a deeper compassion. Combine this with a slightly puckish glee at prodding monastic sensibilities, and you'd have a cloistered cleric who wasn't always so cloistered, and who--like Cadfael--takes any excuse to slip out into the countryside again.

[sonofzeal]

I'm not that familiar with the Father Brown stories, but I think he would definitely have a lot in common with Cadfael.

And rereading the OP, I think both Father Brown and Cadfael would be excellent resources for the roleplaying that Kaeso is looking for. Very different characters, perhaps, but each would have something to offer a cloistered cleric, especially in terms of their perspective on the wider world.

In Cadfael's case, his worldly experience--while shocking to some of his fellow brothers--gives him a much broader understanding of human passions and foibles, which allows him not only to ferret out mysteries and deception, but also to treat even the guilty with a deeper compassion. Combine this with a slightly puckish glee at prodding monastic sensibilities, and you'd have a cloistered cleric who wasn't always so cloistered, and who--like Cadfael--takes any excuse to slip out into the countryside again.
Father Brown, like Chesterton himself, is in many ways the inverse. while Cadfael might "turn cloistered logic on its head", Father Brown's sensibilities are very much orthodox but he has a funny way of producing them like a rabbit from a hat out of the most unlikely contexts. In effect, he ends up turning non-cloistered logic on its head. Father Brown comes off as someone who would fit right in to that cloistered crowd, but when you put him in context of the rest of the world, it's the world - not he, nor the cloister - that ends up looking faintly ridiculous.