[3.5] Cle/Cru/RKV optimization

[Torvon]

Harro.

I'm redoing a lvl 7 character for a campaign. Was a Goliath Cleric1/Crusader6 so far, but the optimization of the group is rather strong, so I want to do better.

Idea: do a lot of damage but also be a decent tank.

Two build options I see:
(1) Cleric1/Crusader4/RKVx optimization, or
(2) Cleric2/Crusader3/RKVx.

Both builds get, with cloistered cleric, until level 7:
- 3 domains, 1 save reroll/d, CHA on will save, thicket of blades at level 6 (!), Divine Recovery at 7.

The difference:
(1) Steely Resolve (10), meaning +1 attack and +1 damage more, passive. Also, one level2 maneuver more (because CRU4 can retrain 1 maneuver).
(2) Gets one more caster level.

What I miss:
- Rhine's Charge!! How do I get that amazing Paladin lvl1 spell? Going paladin4/Crusader1/RKV would be a waste imo.

At level7: STR20 CON16 DEX8 INT8 WIS12 CHA16.
Feral Creature, buyoff at level 5.
Human.
Thinking about: Power Attack(1), Spiked Chain(1), Mage Slayer(1), Jotunbrud(1), Divine Vigor(3), Sacred Vitality(6)
Also thinking about practised spellcaster, leap attack, extra turning, luck of heroes. Ideas?

Domains? Thinking about knowledge devotion, time domain, not sure about third.

Comments would be appreciated ;)

ta-ta
T.

[skycycle blues]

If you can dip into Prestige Paladin, it adds Paladin spells to your spell list. 2 levels also gives you Divine Grace and a Special Mount.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#


Also, you're going to want to seriously pump up your Wisdom score.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Cleric 4/crusader 1 (or crusader 1/cleric 4 for more skill points and HP, but lower level maneuvers, although RKV still gets you the same level of maneuvers)/RKV 10/cleric +5 or crusader +5 (or maybe Prestige Paladin 5).

[Manateee]

If optimization is a priority, why so little cleric? Level 1 spells aren't very intimidating at ECL 7.

With Mage Slayer, the more caster-heavy of the builds will be casting at CL -1.

Divine Vigor and Sacred Vitality aren't exactly bad, but they're single-target defensive buffs with relatively short durations. That means they involve spending a combat action not hitting anything and taking precautions that only have a chance of mattering if something attacks you in a specific way (HP damage for DV, ability drain for SV). I'd skip Sacred Vitality, and at least spend a while thinking about DV.

As both a melee character and a caster, you have more pressing feat expenses. Like Practiced Spellcaster to push your CL up to (or above!) zero. Or if you want to shut down casters, Divine Defiance (plus some CL boosts). Or Knockback and/or Knockdown to get some tagalongs onto your strike attacks. Or Animal Devotion for swift Flight/+Strength. Or the Extend/Persist DMM combo for allday buffing. Or just Quicken and DMM if DMM Persist is overkill.

You mention Leap Attack, which isn't a bad idea, but it would also require spending a feat on Martial Study for something out of Tiger Claw (kind of a waste, unless you get to Crusader 4 to swap it out; and that's a waste in other ways).

Anyway, good luck

[Hiro Protagonest]

You're taking Mage Slayer?

Never take Mage Slayer on a caster. Never. Take Mage Slayer. On a caster.

[Darrin]

Never take Mage Slayer on a caster. Never. Take Mage Slayer. On a caster.

Well, for one thing, it's not entirely a caster... it's a Windicator build. So most of the spellcasting is probably for fluff/utility. Second, it *can* be taken on a caster if you focus only on spells that don't care about caster levels. I mean, it's not like this guy is going to be relying on flame strikes every round. And if he's got four non-caster levels, Practiced Spellcaster offsets the -4 CL.


What I miss:
- Rhine's Charge!! How do I get that amazing Paladin lvl1 spell? Going paladin4/Crusader1/RKV would be a waste imo.


Do you mean rhino's rush? Well, it's a domain spell for Wrath, so you could get it there. Dipping Prestige Paladin has already been mentioned, and gets you a bunch more of the swift-action paladin spells. Prestige Ranger could also work. Or you could UMD it from a wand. You'd want it in a wand chamber anyway.



Thinking about: Power Attack(1), Spiked Chain(1), Mage Slayer(1), Jotunbrud(1), Divine Vigor(3), Sacred Vitality(6)


I'm not sure I see the point of EWP: Spiked Chain and Jotunbrud on a build that doesn't have Improved Trip or Stand Still.

Divine Vigor... I'm not sure you'd actually get to use this much. It takes a standard action, so that means no spells or maneuvers that round. And you're probably going to need all your TUs for Divine Impetus/Divine Recovery.

Sacred Vitality can be very situationally useful, but I don't see any combos specific to this build where you'd need this as opposed to just carrying around a couple scrolls of death ward.



Also thinking about practised spellcaster, leap attack, extra turning, luck of heroes. Ideas?


For Practiced Spellcaster, I guess I'd want to know more about which spells you're going to focus on and are they caster-level dependent?

Leap Attack kinda needs Pounce first, which you don't have... lion's charge is a Ranger 2 spell, but going into Prestige Ranger kinda mucks up your feats.

Extra Turning = Yes, have some!

Luck of Heroes = Boring. Buy a Ring of Protection instead.



Domains? Thinking about knowledge devotion, time domain, not sure about third.


We're assuming your ditching Wee-Jas via the Adaptation section? Although the Magic domain is probably worth it... activating Sor/Wiz wands is all part of the awesomesauce of RKV. Time is very nice, Travel Devotion gives you some Pounce-ishness and adds several important teleport-ish utility spells. If you're serious about Mage-Slayer, then the Darkness or Shadow domain gets you Blind-Fight, which helps you grab Pierce Magical Concealment.

If you're sticking with Wee-Jas, then take Magic and Inquisition (for the +4 on dispel checks). If not... I'd probably go with Magic and Undeath (hello Extra Turning!).

Could you tell us more about what you want the build to do? Do you want a spiked chain lockdown tripper, or do you want to focus on strikes + swift action gish spells? Do you want more of a CoDzilla + maneuvers as frosting, or Crusader + utility spells as frosting?

[Torvon]

Had to leave Berlin quickly to go to a conference, that's why I couldn't respond faster.

You guys are amazing, so much helpful suggestions! Thank you.

Let me clear a couple of things up first:
I want to play a melee tank, that's my role. It was supposed to be a Crusader going Hellreaver, then it became a cleric1/crusader5/hellreaverX.
Looking for optimization, I thought about going RKV instead, and want to make the best out of it.

We already have a DMM Cleric in the party, and a druid, so I need to dish out crazy dps while being a fat moffo who is really hard to take down. Fluffwise, I'd love Prestige Pally, but am not sure if the class is worthwhile.

Most important: the character is lvl7 now, and I want him to work now, not at lvl 15 when I get RKV lvl7 and can cheese the **** out of the combat action system.
We get retrain tokens every couple of levels and can totally rebuild the character, so let's focus on a build that works now, from 7-12 or so, and then I can adjust it, if I wish so.


If you can dip into Prestige Paladin, it adds Paladin spells to your spell list. 2 levels also gives you Divine Grace and a Special Mount.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...erClasses.htm#
Also, you're going to want to seriously pump up your Wisdom score.
I'm sure the thing with paladin spells is true, but I read both the link and the UA original text, and I just don't find the part where it says you add Paladin spells to your class list. But I might simply be blind and too tired.
What build for Prestige Paladin would you suggest - Cleric4/Cru1/PP1/RKVx?


Divine Vigor and Sacred Vitality aren't exactly bad, but they're single-target defensive buffs with relatively short durations. That means they involve spending a combat action not hitting anything and taking precautions that only have a chance of mattering if something attacks you in a specific way (HP damage for DV, ability drain for SV). I'd skip Sacred Vitality, and at least spend a while thinking about DV.
We're playing age of worms, and the DM challenges us a lot. It's a very optimization heavy party, and still we had more than one death per evening, although people play extremely well and careful. What I want is a character that doesn't die (and, being a Crusader, he is the only one with a kill count of 0 at the moment).

In the last encounter, we met a lurker, who had a hide value and some magic items that made it rather possible for us to detect him. Our Cleric had wisdom-14 in 2 rounds, our duskblade int-14 in another two rounds. Our DM loves ability damage, and I don't see any other way to counter ability damage than with Sacred Vitality. It's cheap (I have the turning attempts anyway), and we play with retraining, so as soon as I have CL7 (death ward) I can just retrain the feat. That was my thought.


As both a melee character and a caster, you have more pressing feat expenses. Like Practiced Spellcaster to push your CL up to (or above!) zero. Or if you want to shut down casters, Divine Defiance (plus some CL boosts). Or Knockback and/or Knockdown to get some tagalongs onto your strike attacks. Or Animal Devotion for swift Flight/+Strength. Or the Extend/Persist DMM combo for allday buffing. Or just Quicken and DMM if DMM Persist is overkill.

Nice ideas.
*Divine Defiance won't work because I will suck at opposed checks vs. full casters (what do you think CL boost is - e.g. Prac Spellcaster? Other ideas?)
*Knockdown: I don't have INT13 for combat expertise, I don't have improved trip. I don't have 3 feats to get that feat. Not possible.
*Knockback is great, but again, imp. Bullrush isn't on my planned feat list. I'd take it if I went for shocktrooper!


You mention Leap Attack, which isn't a bad idea, but it would also require spending a feat on Martial Study for something out of Tiger Claw (kind of a waste, unless you get to Crusader 4 to swap it out; and that's a waste in other ways).
Hm why is that? Doesn't leap attack simply greatly increase my charge damage, in case I skill jump high enough?


Do you mean rhino's rush? Well, it's a domain spell for Wrath, so you could get it there. Dipping Prestige Paladin has already been mentioned, and gets you a bunch more of the swift-action paladin spells. Prestige Ranger could also work. Or you could UMD it from a wand. You'd want it in a wand chamber anyway.

Yes, Rhino's rush, sorry!
I have nearly no skill points on this build, especially with INT8 (feral creature template doesn't help in this regard). So UMD will be hard to get to 20 reliably. Wrath domain sounds amazing.(EDIT: wait, it's not part of the wrath domain, see http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wrath_(3.5e_Cleric_Domain)).
Is there a way to get this without taking the domain - I thought about going for cloistered cleric, knowledge devotion, animal devotion, time domain (imp ini + truestrike). Not sure if this is reasonable or if there are better options. Dream looks nice (immune to fear), but the spells are unusable.
Prestige Pally: what build would you suggest?


I'm not sure I see the point of EWP: Spiked Chain and Jotunbrud on a build that doesn't have Improved Trip or Stand Still.
Divine Vigor... I'm not sure you'd actually get to use this much. It takes a standard action, so that means no spells or maneuvers that round. And you're probably going to need all your TUs for Divine Impetus/Divine Recovery.
Sacred Vitality can be very situationally useful, but I don't see any combos specific to this build where you'd need this as opposed to just carrying around a couple scrolls of death ward.

I'm rebuilding my current Goliath spiked chain Cle1/Cru5. I would like to have reach on this build, and I don't like a reach weapon like a Glaive which doesn't allow me to do reasonable damage to adjacent targets (armor spike damage sucks).
Imp Trip and Stand Still is something that I just couldn't afford, featwise.
Divine Vigor: last fight, we fought an arrow demon. I took 72 damage in one round, and was only standing because of my build. 2*CharacterLevel hitpoints isn't that bad, and the movement is amazing for a tank in fullplate.
You are right about Divine Recovery though, but only if I get reasonable Crusader maneuvers (at least IL3), like Revitalizing Strike. Using that twice is sooo strong.
Scrolls of Death ward: lvl4 cleric spells, which I cannot use at the moment (no matter which build I use, unless I go pure Cleric). Also, we have very little money at the moment. Later an option, at the moment very difficult. My touch AC sucks, and we are fighting a lot of Shadows and other things that deal touch attack ability damage. It's nice that we have one character who is literally immune for currently 6 minutes per day.
Don't misunderstand you, I appreciate your suggestions, but I'm not sure if they are viable for my current situation.


For Practiced Spellcaster, I guess I'd want to know more about which spells you're going to focus on and are they caster-level dependent?
Leap Attack kinda needs Pounce first, which you don't have... lion's charge is a Ranger 2 spell, but going into Prestige Ranger kinda mucks up your feats.
Extra Turning = Yes, have some!
Luck of Heroes = Boring. Buy a Ring of Protection instead.
Currently, with WIS12 and Cle1/Cru5, I know 2x1-level spells, and 1x1-level-domain spell (truestrike, which I never used so far because I never find myself able to have the standard action available).
So ... I cast protection from evil or armor of faith or something silly before bossfights, that's it. Sometimes I have to heal myself.
I think I'd like to have buffs that hurt enemies when they attack me (there is also that amazing 6d6 grapple spell, Goliath+Crusader5+20str means I grappled casters a lot).
So I don't know ... I don't want to be a cleric mainly, we have one. I want to be a kickass crusader with some nice spells at his repertoire.

I have Pounce because of the feral creature template. Extra turning is sweet, but I'm going to use a reliquary holy symbol now (+2 attempts = 8) and see whether this will be enough. Also, isn't turning attempts Cleric level+CHA? Will practised spellcaster help me in this regard -- I guess not?


We're assuming your ditching Wee-Jas via the Adaptation section? Although the Magic domain is probably worth it... activating Sor/Wiz wands is all part of the awesomesauce of RKV. Time is very nice, Travel Devotion gives you some Pounce-ishness and adds several important teleport-ish utility spells. If you're serious about Mage-Slayer, then the Darkness or Shadow domain gets you Blind-Fight, which helps you grab Pierce Magical Concealment.
If you're sticking with Wee-Jas, then take Magic and Inquisition (for the +4 on dispel checks). If not... I'd probably go with Magic and Undeath (hello Extra Turning!).

*Adaptation: yes. I'm playing a Pelor Crusader, I hope my DM will drop the hide silliness and replace is by something reasonable.
*Domains: Magic is interesting, but I think I'll leave that stuff to the wizard and the pure cleric. Good suggestion, I wrote it down for later when my UMD might be reasonable enough to use anything (again, I have an abysmally low number of skill points at the moment). Also, we play with "full hitpoints per level" rule, meaning the cloistered cleric would hurt me more than in a normal campaign where I would only lose 1 HP on average per level (compared to 2 now). Travel is cool, but getting the devotion means you don't get the spells, right? Undeath? Doesn't sound like the thing a Pelor cleric does, unfortunately :/


Could you tell us more about what you want the build to do? Do you want a spiked chain lockdown tripper, or do you want to focus on strikes + swift action gish spells? Do you want more of a CoDzilla + maneuvers as frosting, or Crusader + utility spells as frosting?
What I want: see above, a melee tank who is playable into high levels without absolutely totally sucking compared to our full cleric and full druid and full wizard. I know that this is impossible ;). I like TOB, I like crusaders fluff-wise, and I like to play them. I want to be the good guy who just doesn't f***** die.
*Spiked Chain Lockdown tripper: in this case I should just go pure Crusader, I guess? Basically it's not really possible with this build because I need INT and DEX, and BOTH are my dumpstats. I need STR CON WIS CHA with Cleric/Crusader/RKV, impossible not to dump dex and int.
*Striker+swift action gish: sounds like prestige paladin + RKV? Yes, I'd love to, but I want this combined with survivability. Basically, a tank that is _not_ ignored because he is a threat, damage wise.
*I think I'd prefer maneuvers and some spells, than the other way around. That's why I'm thinking Cle2/Cru3/PP1/RKVx, if that would work?


Thank you so much ;)
ta-ta
T.

[Gwendol]

Ordained Champion maybe; get to channel spells into your weapon. I'd change the character to Cleric 4/OC 3 and aim for RKV in the long run.

[Darrin]

I'm sure the thing with paladin spells is true, but I read both the link and the UA original text, and I just don't find the part where it says you add Paladin spells to your class list. But I might simply be blind and too tired.
What build for Prestige Paladin would you suggest - Cleric4/Cru1/PP1/RKVx?


From the SRD:

"UNIQUE SPELLS
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class."

(The next couple sentences says the DM should only allow spells from other sourcebooks on a case-by-case basis or require independent research, but it sounds like you've got a pretty gung-ho DM.)

I'd go Cloistered Cleric 1/Cru 4/Prestige Paladin 1/RKV x.



In the last encounter, we met a lurker, who had a hide value and some magic items that made it rather possible for us to detect him. Our Cleric had wisdom-14 in 2 rounds, our duskblade int-14 in another two rounds. Our DM loves ability damage, and I don't see any other way to counter ability damage than with Sacred Vitality. It's cheap (I have the turning attempts anyway), and we play with retraining, so as soon as I have CL7 (death ward) I can just retrain the feat. That was my thought.


Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest (Magic of Incarnum) might help, but I'm not sure if it would out-perform Sacred Vitality. Dipping into Binder for Naberius would be better, but too many dips dilutes the build.

A Talisman of Undying Fortitude (8000 GP, MIC) offers complete immunity to energy/ability damage, among a bunch of other things. Lasts 2 rounds, 2/day. Pick up a Rod of Bodily Restoration (3100 GP, MIC) and an Orb of Mental Renewal (3100 GP, MIC) and you should be set as far as ability damage goes. If you get two levels of Prestige Paladin, you can add Caduceus Bracers (2000 GP, MIC) to restore ability damage with Lay on Hands.



*Knockdown: I don't have INT13 for combat expertise, I don't have improved trip. I don't have 3 feats to get that feat. Not possible.


The best way around that is Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, which could also get you Whirling Frenzy. This lets you ignore Combat Expertise and the Int requirement. If you go that route, you'll want to clarify with the DM whether the Sword & Fist errata for Knockdown still applies to the Deities & Demigods/SRD version. (By RAW, I believe the SRD version supercedes the errata, but the "melee can't have nice things" crowd can be persnickety on this point.)



Yes, Rhino's rush, sorry!
I have nearly no skill points on this build, especially with INT8 (feral creature template doesn't help in this regard). So UMD will be hard to get to 20 reliably. Wrath domain sounds amazing.(EDIT: wait, it's not part of the wrath domain, see http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wrath_(3.5e_Cleric_Domain)).


Spell Compendium trumps dandwiki. (Actually, anything that can string 2-3 words together into something remotely coherent generally trumps dandwiki.)



I'm rebuilding my current Goliath spiked chain Cle1/Cru5. I would like to have reach on this build, and I don't like a reach weapon like a Glaive which doesn't allow me to do reasonable damage to adjacent targets (armor spike damage sucks).


Noted. You mentioned adapting the deity to Pelor, but if your DM allows you to be flexible with the whole deity/domains thing, you can pick up EWP and Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain by putting 8 ranks into Knowledge: the Planes and taking the Planar Touchstone feat at level 6. Link to the Catalogues of Enlightenment, and gain the benefits of the War domain.

Deities with spiked chain as their favored weapon:

Kossuth (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting p. 234)
Tsolorandril (Living Greyhawk Deities v2.0 p. 171)
Zoser (Sandstorm p. 45)

But it sounds like getting the skill points would be tough to do.



Scrolls of Death ward: lvl4 cleric spells, which I cannot use at the moment (no matter which build I use, unless I go pure Cleric). Also, we have very little money at the moment. Later an option, at the moment very difficult. My touch AC sucks, and we are fighting a lot of Shadows and other things that deal touch attack ability damage. It's nice that we have one character who is literally immune for currently 6 minutes per day.


Law Devotion might help a little with the touch AC. Try to get your hands on a Lesser Crystal of Screening (1000 GP, MIC): -5 penalty to any attack against you by an incorporeal creature. And put a Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection (2500 GP, MIC) on your wish list: +5 AC against all ranged attacks. (It's shield-only, but you can slap it on a buckler +1).



I have Pounce because of the feral creature template. Extra turning is sweet, but I'm going to use a reliquary holy symbol now (+2 attempts = 8) and see whether this will be enough. Also, isn't turning attempts Cleric level+CHA? Will practised spellcaster help me in this regard -- I guess not?


Sorry, I completely missed that you mentioned the Feral template. So, yes, Leap Attack would be good. If you can also get the Travel Devotion in there, that's at least 10 rounds of move back 10' + Pounce.



*Domains: Magic is interesting, but I think I'll leave that stuff to the wizard and the pure cleric. Good suggestion, I wrote it down for later when my UMD might be reasonable enough to use anything (again, I have an abysmally low number of skill points at the moment).


Magic domain means you don't *need* UMD for wizard/sorcerer wands. Since you're pretty much building a "divine gish", having one or two wand chambers (100 GP, Dungeonscape) handy is almost required. You've already mentioned rhino's rush (only 750 GP for a wand from a cleric with the Wrath domain). Some other goodies from the wizard list:

Blade of Blood (PHBII, Everybody 1). +1d6 damage on next attack, or sacrifice 5 HP for +3d6 damage (hello Steely Resolve!)

Blades of Fire (Spell Compendium, Sor/Wiz 1). Swift action, +1d8 fire damage on all your melee attacks for 1 round.

Blockade (Complete Scoundrel, Sor/Wiz 1). Handy for blocking narrow corridors/doors, but also a ready supply of "I've got wood" jokes.

Close Wounds (Spell Compendium, Clr 2). Immediate action to heal 1d4 + 1/CL (max +5) to any target within close range. If a lucky crit takes you all the way past -10 HP, this might be a good way to go from "all dead" to "mostly dead".

Energy Surge, Lesser (PBHII, Sor/Wiz 2). Swift action, +1d6 a la carte energy damage.

Kaupaer's Quickblast (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050112a), Sor/Wiz 1). Free/immediate/??? action, autohits. Allows a Ref save, but a great way to light things on fire.

Knight's Move (Spell Compendium, Clr 3/Pal 2). Swift action teleport to move into flanking position.

Nerveskitter (Spell Compendium, Sor/Wiz 1). Suck on this, Improved Initiative.

Wraithstrike (Spell Compendium, Sor/Wiz 2). Awesomesauce on toast.



Travel is cool, but getting the devotion means you don't get the spells, right?


Ok, forgot about the spells thing. Hmm. Well, it says you can't prepare them... but it doesn't actually say they're removed from your list. You might still be able to cast them from spell trigger/completion items.

However, Pounce + Leap Attack + Travel Devotion is probably worth it even without the spells. Consider:

10 consecutive rounds of move back 10' (swift action) + Pounce (full round attack). While this probably interferes with using any maneuvers/spells during those 10 rounds... with that much raw damage output, you may not need any maneuvers/spells.



*Spiked Chain Lockdown tripper: in this case I should just go pure Crusader, I guess?


Cleric 1/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader 2/RKV X.
Feats:
1) EWP: Spiked Chain
3) Improved Trip, Knock-Down
6) Stand Still

Not really enough feat slots... and no room for any fun stuff. And while you can still dump Dex, that limits you to only 1 AoO per round (unless you pick up a bunch of Bracers of Opportunity/Counterstrike Bracers).

[Manateee]

*Divine Defiance won't work because I will suck at opposed checks vs. full casters (what do you think CL boost is - e.g. Prac Spellcaster? Other ideas?)
If you drop mage slayer and pick up the Inquisition domain (available even without sacrificing other domains either temporarily through Domain Substitution or cheaply through Church Inquisitor) and Practiced spellcaster (which you'll probably want anyway), you'd be sitting at +11 to dispel at ECL 7. Admittedly, that's not worth much until you get dispels, but it might be handy in a couple levels.

I bring up the other feats because they're always on and continually useful, rather than the situational bonus that having immediate foreknowledge of a level-draining fight would be.

Hm why is that? Doesn't leap attack simply greatly increase my charge damage, in case I skill jump high enough?
That was because a quick google didn't tell me Jump was a Crusader skill. My mistake. Anyway, if it just takes a few skill ranks to use, it'd definitely be useful.

Since many of the self-buffs that you'll be using apply to all forms of melee attack, it might be cheaper to invest some minimal resources into buffing your natural weapons than in spending a feat for the Reflex-less spiked chain to deal with another situational difficulty (ie. against a melee attacker that survives AoO too well for you to kill with armor spikes or claws in an environment where a 5ft step isn't an option).

But Darrin's Wand Chamber idea can be solid, if you can get your hands an array of wands inexpensively. With Least Returning weapon augment crystals, they can also be easier to draw and activate than typical wands. It's a 400 gp/spell on top of the wand price (chamber+augment), but if you use them regularly, it can be worth it.

[Torvon]

I'd go Cloistered Cleric 1/Cru 4/Prestige Paladin 1/RKV x.

That sounds like such an amazing build to me. Unfortunately, with my current build (feral creature, INT=8) and the feat starvation I suffer, it will be sooo hard to qualify for PP and RKV. Hide? Cross class. Intimidate? Well, yes, but I was the diplomacy guy so far. Ride? Holy smokes, cross class. Knowledge Religion 8? That's 3 more than I wanted to. Knowledge Nobility? Another 4 skill points.
So these are 8(Hide)+4(Intimidate)+Ride(8)+KReligion(8)+KNobili ty(4) Skill points = 32 skill points, just for prerequesites. Not included all knowledge skills 1 for knowledge devotion, not included spellcraft1, UMD1, things like swim1 or climb1, diplomacy.
Not including jump (!) at all.

In my Crusader levels I only get 3 skill points, so that's 12 Skill points. For my Cleric first level I would get 4 skill points (lol), but with cloistered cleric I think I get (6-1)*4=20.

So, honestly, I cannot possibly afford this. + PP costs me a feat (mounted combat) which will be worthless for me.

Eh. Difficult decisions. Maybe just pick up the wrath domain for Rhino's rush?

Another question: I found dynamic priest, getting me CHA for spells instead of WIS. I currently have WIS 12, meaning my saves suck, but at least I get +1 additional spell on lvl1 Cleric casting. Could I just totally dump WIS and go for more CHA instead, with this feat? Would it be worth it?



A Talisman of Undying Fortitude (8000 GP, MIC) offers complete immunity to energy/ability damage, among a bunch of other things. Lasts 2 rounds, 2/day. Pick up a Rod of Bodily Restoration (3100 GP, MIC) and an Orb of Mental Renewal (3100 GP, MIC) and you should be set as far as ability damage goes. If you get two levels of Prestige Paladin, you can add Caduceus Bracers (2000 GP, MIC) to restore ability damage with Lay on Hands.
Yup, I use the bracers on my factotum. Honestly though, having both priest and druid in the group, it's not about restoring ability damage, it's about not losing it ;). I like your suggestions above (wasn't aware of most of the items) and will add them to my list. I still think I'll go sacred vitality for now and maybe retrain later if I see I won't need it.


The best way around that is Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, which could also get you Whirling Frenzy. This lets you ignore Combat Expertise and the Int requirement. If you go that route, you'll want to clarify with the DM whether the Sword & Fist errata for Knockdown still applies to the Deities & Demigods/SRD version. (By RAW, I believe the SRD version supercedes the errata, but the "melee can't have nice things" crowd can be persnickety on this point.)
Interesting, but not possible with my build. Good to know though, might incorporate this into a fighter/barb/warblade build I'm playing in another campaign (very roleplaying heavy, not very optimized). I'd love to play him as tumb big guy, but with INT 13 he's smarter than the average person ;)


Spell Compendium trumps dandwiki. (Actually, anything that can string 2-3 words together into something remotely coherent generally trumps dandwiki.)
Was in the metro and didn't have access to SC, you're absolutely right of course.
I read up on the wrath domain again. Problem here is that it would be only for the spell, the domain power would be totally unusable on my cleric (you need both cleric levels and high wisdom, I have neither, no matter what build I go for).
Meh :(


Law Devotion might help a little with the touch AC. Try to get your hands on a Lesser Crystal of Screening (1000 GP, MIC): -5 penalty to any attack against you by an incorporeal creature. And put a Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection (2500 GP, MIC) on your wish list: +5 AC against all ranged attacks. (It's shield-only, but you can slap it on a buckler +1).
Law Devotion is very strong, but my character isn't lawful (my DM would be ok with it, but I just don't think it fits that well), and there are other strong choices also. Thanks for pointing that out though, I wasn't aware it also applied to touch AC! Screening crystal also went onto my equipment list, arrow deflection is unaffordable right now.
Next thing I'll get are the bloodthingie bracers (take 5 damage every round, deal 5 damage with every attack). Not only will it be sweet for me, but we have a multi attack druid shifter in the group who's damage output will increase by 20 or 25 every round in case he hits with every attack.


Sorry, I completely missed that you mentioned the Feral template. So, yes, Leap Attack would be good. If you can also get the Travel Devotion in there, that's at least 10 rounds of move back 10' + Pounce.
You mean pounce is important for leap attack build because charging itself sucks without iterative attacks after charge? No idea where I should get the skillpoints for jump from, but I'll try. Travel Devotion is really nice, yes, especially with the RKV lvl7 feature (divine kill-the-combat-action-system or whatever it's called).


Magic domain means you don't *need* UMD for wizard/sorcerer wands. Since you're pretty much building a "divine gish", having one or two wand chambers (100 GP, Dungeonscape) handy is almost required. You've already mentioned rhino's rush (only 750 GP for a wand from a cleric with the Wrath domain). Some other goodies from the wizard list:
...

Holy smokes, precious!
So many amazing spells. So that magic domain means I just get a wand chamber into my weapon, in the best case, and then I put a wand in. It can be a divine wand, but also an arcane wand - no UMD required when I want to active the spell. Blade of Blood is hilariously awesome. Deal on average 10.5 damage for taking 5 (none with DR). Great.
Can I use close wounds on myself after being dead (dropping to -12)?


Ok, forgot about the spells thing. Hmm. Well, it says you can't prepare them... but it doesn't actually say they're removed from your list. You might still be able to cast them from spell trigger/completion items. [/quote|
I read the devotion feats that you lose everything else - domain special power, access to spells. It replaces the other things.

[QUOTE=Darrin;12737345]However, Pounce + Leap Attack + Travel Devotion is probably worth it even without the spells. Consider:
10 consecutive rounds of move back 10' (swift action) + Pounce (full round attack). While this probably interferes with using any maneuvers/spells during those 10 rounds... with that much raw damage output, you may not need any maneuvers/spells.
Fun times.


... to invest some minimal resources into buffing your natural weapons than in spending a feat for the Reflex-less spiked chain to deal with another situational difficulty
Never played a character with natural weapons really (I love the fact that feral creatures can make free grapple check if they hit with claws, my character has a pretty insane grapple modifier, and once I can cast the level 2 cleric spell that gives me +6d6 damage when grappling, I'll gladly drop my weapon regularly to say HI to enemy mages).
Maybe you have some advice on how to buff natural weapons or know a good guide? I'll be throwing out power attacks often and go for single, strong hits instead of many small ones, I think natural weapons for a crusader really isn't the thing to go for, honestly. But maybe you can prove me wrong.


Last thing: since we can retrain everything every couple of levels (in Age of Worms there is even a good roleplaying intime reason to do so), I might retrain this character once I can buyoff LA+2 (I think lvl 9). Drop feral creature, take saint. Would fit nicely fluffwise, would change the build slightly (would need to take VOP I guess), but would also be rather strong.


Thanks
T.

PS.: does feral creature +10 move and divine vigor +10 move stack?